Hebrew salvation

[By Grace]

I've read in several places now that the Hebrews under the Mosaic Law knew even then that their salvation was not based on their observance of the Law, but rather on grace, and that this is a common misconception in the Christian church. Can someone give me some Scriptures that support this concept so I can point to them when witnessing to other people and trying to explain the purpose of the Mosaic Law before Y'shua's sacrifice?

TIA,

[CharlesYTK]

Scripture references:
See
Torah
Prophets
the writings

Also known combined as Tanakh or Old Testament.

I do not mean to be rude in any way. My point is that the OT is filled to the brim with the repeated teaching that God's Grace is what saves, and delivers.

It would be easier to try and define where the scriptures say that one is saved by Keeping the law. You will not find it. The one place that seems to indicate a thought like that is Rev 22: [14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Rom 10:[5] For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
This is a ref to Lev 18: [5] Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

The problem with the Jews of the second temple period is that they had perverted the righteousness of the law in to a system of self righteousness, whereby they believed that you earned you salvation through a legalistic observation of the Torah commands.

RO 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. [2] For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. [3] For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Note that they were keeping the law to earn their own acceptance in God, and missed what the scriptures clearly indicated, that it is impossible to earn what can only be received freely through God's loving kindness, which is the righteouness that comes from God, by changing our hearts through the filling of the spirit.

[By Grace]

Scripture references:
See
Torah
Prophets
the writings

Also known combined as Tanakh or Old Testament.

I do not mean to be rude in any way. My point is that the OT is filled to the brim with the repeated teaching that God's Grace is what saves, and delivers.
Yes, but how many Christians are going to read through the entire OT to prove their own beliefs wrong? They just aren't willing to put that much time into studying it. I've found plenty of verses in the BH I can point to and say, "Look, it says right here that 'Keeping G-d's commands is what counts' (I Cor 7:19b)." But are there verses in the Tanakh I can point to and say "Look, it says right here they knew they were saved by grace"? I'm sure I would find them as I do my own studying of the Tanakh, but there are so many other things I'm studying, too, that I'm hoping to get a little direction on where to look.

Note that they were keeping the law to earn their own acceptance in God, and missed what the scriptures clearly indicated, that it is impossible to earn what can only be received freely through God's loving kindness, which is the righteouness that comes from God, by changing our hearts through the filling of the spirit.
I thought the Spirit wasn't given until Pentecost; did they have access to the Spirit before Y'shua?

P.S. Charles, I've learned by now that you don't mean to be rude, that it's nothing personal! Thank you for taking the time to respond to my elementary-level questions.

[visionary]

It is not a new concept when it comes to the spirit of God swelling in the heart of man.
Throughout the Word of God are many instances where they talked about it, and experienced it.

Genesis 41:38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?

Exodus 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

Numbers 11:17 And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.

Numbers 11:25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease. 26 But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.

Numbers 24:2 And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in his tents according to their tribes; and the spirit of God came upon him.

Numbers 27:18 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him;

1 Chronicles 12:18 Then the spirit came upon Amasai, who was chief of the captains, and he said, Thine are we, David, and on thy side, thou son of Jesse: peace, peace be unto thee, and peace be to thine helpers; for thy God helpeth thee. Then David received them, and made them captains of the band.

There are so many verses of the spirit of God moving men to do mighty things, speak mighty things in prophecy and from all indications, the same spirit of God is available to us. We can experience the baptism of the Holy Spirit like those at the foot of Mount Sinai, or in the upper room but it is the same spirit of God that comes.

[CharlesYTK]

Yes, but how many Christians are going to read through the entire OT to prove their own beliefs wrong? They just aren't willing to put that much time into studying it. I've found plenty of verses in the BH I can point to and say, "Look, it says right here that 'Keeping G-d's commands is what counts' (I Cor 7:19b)." But are there verses in the Tanakh I can point to and say "Look, it says right here they knew they were saved by grace"? I'm sure I would find them as I do my own studying of the Tanakh, but there are so many other things I'm studying, too, that I'm hoping to get a little direction on where to look.
Here is a good example.

The Hebrews are in Egypt. Through all the plagues God spares Israels and their land. Even when the first born are killed, it is the blood of the lamb, and not your own eforts that delivered you. It was Faith in Gods promise "I will pass over you" And the only work asociated was obedience to the instruction which was a display of faith in the promise.

Then he delivers them. Takes them out of Egypt. His destination for them is the promised land, a type of the comig kingdom. But before they enter the Kingdom, they must receive the law. Where is the law given? In international territory and the Gentiles who went with them are included (the mixed multitude) After they learn the law and lear obedience and faith, then they are allowed to enter the promised land.

So it was Faith, then deliverance, then sanctification through the law, then entering the kingdom.

It is the same today. We have faith in God provided through Messiah his anointed.

Then we are delievered from the penalty of our sins and bondage to the world, flesh and devil.

Then we receive and practice the law so that we can be sanctified, made into a holy nation.

And we enter the kingdom, first in our spiritual life on this earth and later in the actural kingdom as it is set up at the second coming.


On your other question, the spirit was always available to a righteous man and there are lots of examples. But today it is a moe generalized out pouring, before we understand and are obedient. He is given to us to help us learn the ways of God and Torah. (Sanctification)

[debi b]

They just aren't willing to put that much time into studying it.

Does anyone remember when they came out with the quick scan Bible? My thought about the quick scan then as now is "why bother then :sigh: ".

There are so many book worms and tape worms.....people want to get info from almost anywhere except the source from where it comes. My question to that is "what if the author of the book or speaker on the tape is wrong?" If the individual listening does not have the institutional knowledge about scripture itself how will you know for yourself when they are wrong? Sadly most people get their info and "it sounds right" and that is all the time they are willing to put into it - period.

Sometimes our interaction with people is out of defending our position. A different idea is viewed with suspicion. Other times we know how much a different perspective would help people. I appreciate your desire to share with people, however it's just not that simple.

[muffler dragon]

Dear Jill:

I just posted a huge OP on this in the Spirit-Filled/Pentecostal/Charismatic Forum. The title is Messianic Understanding of Grace. The OP is the only thing you'll probably want to bother reading about. I intend having a great deal of defense in my future. :)

Shalom,

Nathan

[By Grace]

Dear Jill:

I just posted a huge OP on this in the Spirit-Filled/Pentecostal/Charismatic Forum. The title is Messianic Understanding of Grace. The OP is the only thing you'll probably want to bother reading about. I intend having a great deal of defense in my future. :)

Shalom,

Nathan
Thanks, Nathan. That was a very interesting post, and I've added that book to my wish list! :yum: I think I'll have to visit that board a little more often, as there were several threads there that looked interesting!