Division?

[onlyzc]

(I don't know where else to post this??)

If anyone where to ask me I could easily tell them why I am a Christian:



I was born again in Christ, God on earth, because he died for me and rose again after three days. He bore my sins and the sins of the world upon a cross, that all might be free of sin and spend eternity with God in heaven if we believe that Christ died for us and conquered death, burying our sin.



I am of no denomination and I cannot understand their purpose anymore since all Christians are united by this truth. Are we not dividing ourselves with minor differences, that we have elaborated into denominations? Paul said this in 1st Corinthians:



1Co 1:10: Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.



1Co 1:13: Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?



Of course I know no one believes that Paul is our Savior, but I think we have lost sight of of the purpose of the Church, as in all Christians, as in the body of Christ. We are to give praise and worship God as often as possible, and use our gift, our purpose in the body to bring others to Christ, while trying to be more Christ like. All these things join us together and make us Christians. Everyone should be able to tell me why they are a Christian, but can anyone tell me why they belong to any certian denomination

[Crispie]

Amen

[DanielRB]

Well said, onlync. The ironic thing is that many denominations were formed from splitting off of another because of what was perceived as doctrinal error...yet diving Christ's body itself is doctrinal error.

I'm not saying that every split is unjustified; sometimes you do have to seperate from false teachings. But some of the reasons for splitting off seem either so light and meaningless or not clear in the Bible...surely these sadden our Lord and Savior.

In Christ,

Daniel

[PaladinGirl]

Amen onlyzc! Divisions are a horrible thing. However, I am willing to go to a church that belongs to a specific denomination if I agree with their teachings. But the divisions are sad nonetheless. I guess it is impossible for men to agree theologically on all things. So many things in the Bible are subject to interpretation. But what matters is that Jesus Christ, God on earth, died on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins and rose from the dead on the 3rd day and then ascended in to Heaven 40 days later!

[New_Wineskin]

I am of no denomination and I cannot understand their purpose anymore since all Christians are united by this truth. Are we not dividing ourselves with minor differences, that we have elaborated into denominations?
There are really no divisions in the Body of Christ . There are only differences in which social clubs or lodges people attend . The focus on what type of bylaws they agree to and use for their meetings could cause confusion as to there actually being division .

[DanielRB]

There are really no divisions in the Body of Christ . There are only differences in which social clubs or lodges people attend . The focus on what type of bylaws they agree to and use for their meetings could cause confusion as to there actually being division .
Hi New_Wineskin, thanks for your post. :wave:

On one hand, I agree--Christ is never literally divided; on the other, I think that even Paul recognized that division does exist, and it is not a good thing:

"Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?" (1 Corinthians 1:10-13, NKJV)
[1] (http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=8777880#_ftnCitation)
[1] (http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=8777880#_ftnrefCitation) The New King James Version. 1996, c1982. Nashville: Thomas Nelson.




" And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor. For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?" (1 Corinthians 3:1-16, NKJV)
[1] (http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=8777880#_ftnCitation)
[1] (http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=8777880#_ftnrefCitation) The New King James Version. 1996, c1982. Nashville: Thomas Nelson.




Literal wars--some of the bloodiest in history, such as the Thirty Year's War (which devistated centeral Europe)--were fought over these divisions. People killed each other because of these differences. Even today, many Christian believe that members of a particular church (or sometimes anyone NOT in their church) are deceived by the devil at best, and at worst work as his servants. It would be easy to dismiss all of those who participated in the wars or currently 'war' against other churches as 'not real Christians'; sadly, I think many of them are real Christians--imperfect, childish and fleshy (as Paul said), but Christians nonetheless.

The divisions, sadly, are real--though Christ is not literally divided. Sure, there are important reasons to seperate--Paul indicates as much in 1 Corinthians, even though he decries divisions; but unity is also very important. The difficult task is recognizing the proper reasons for division.

There is also the 'division' where people do merely attend assemblies in different locations, but bear no animosity towards one another and even work together. I'm not concerned so much with these divisions.

In Christ,

Daniel

[onlyzc]

I think we all agree that the body of Christ can not itself be divided. We being human, however often cause division among ourselves over logistics. Our interpretation of the bible is not any cause for difference. They are merely our interpretations, and do not compare any means to the power and truth of the cross.

Paul again:
1Co 1:17: For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel- not with word of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of it's power.

1Co 1:20: Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

1Co 2:1-5: When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God . For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words but with a demonstration of the Spirits power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.
-NIV

We need to unite in Christ under this truth ignoring our differences and focusing on the power of the Cross.

(P.S. I suggest that everyone reads in this thread reads at least 1Corinthians 1:10-2:5 so we can all be on the same page.)

[ShyBoy]

The way I see it is that disunity and division in the Body of Christ is the result of human sin pure and simple. The sins of scandle by all of the Popes, Bishops and Priests of the Church that caused the reformation and the resulting splits in the Church. But also the sinful pride of all of the reformers and founders of all of the other denominations and churches for thinking that they were justified in userping the authority of the Church of God.

[onlyzc]

But also the sinful pride of all of the reformers and founders of all of the other denominations and churches for thinking that they were justified in userping the authority of the Church of God.
Perhaps, but remeber the church does not hail to any specific denomination, therefore all who believe in the power of Christ's death belong to the church. The power and authority of the church is rests in God.

[FoundInGrace]

thanks to the OP - refreshing post
perhaps God allows diff denominations so he can express diff things about himself to his people.
disunity is unpleasant, the infighting among diff denoms can get really bad and thats sad when its get to that cos you can still be in unity with someone and not agree with them if you're both working toward the same end, not easy but possible. I'm guilty of getting angry at diff denoms and am trying to figure out how to remain in unity without getting too hostile - a work in progress!

[Celticflower]

thanks to the OP - refreshing post
perhaps God allows diff denominations so he can express diff things about himself to his people.
disunity is unpleasant, the infighting among diff denoms can get really bad and thats sad when its get to that cos you can still be in unity with someone and not agree with them if you're both working toward the same end, not easy but possible. I'm guilty of getting angry at diff denoms and am trying to figure out how to remain in unity without getting too hostile - a work in progress!
I agree with your statement about God using different denominations to express different things about himself to His people, but I also feel he can use them to express the same things to different people in a way they will respond to and understand.
As far as the disunity and infighting--maybe if all Christians-both denominational and non- concentrate on what we share in common rather than our differences, we would get along better. :prayer: I may not agree with all the doctines and traditions of your church, nor you mine, but we can agree to love and respect each other, right?

Celtie

[FoundInGrace]

I agree with your statement about God using different denominations to express different things about himself to His people, but I also feel he can use them to express the same things to different people in a way they will respond to and understand.
As far as the disunity and infighting--maybe if all Christians-both denominational and non- concentrate on what we share in common rather than our differences, we would get along better. :prayer: I may not agree with all the doctines and traditions of your church, nor you mine, but we can agree to love and respect each other, right?

Celtie
absolutely, we probably have more in common than we might disagree on anyway ;)

[New_Wineskin]

I think we all agree that the body of Christ can not itself be divided.

...

We need to unite in Christ under this truth ignoring our differences and focusing on the power of the Cross.

Since you stated that we all agree that the Church cannot be divided , in what way do you consider that there is a *need* to unite ? What is your proposal for bringing about this unity ?

[onlyzc]

Since you stated that we all agree that the Church cannot be divided , in what way do you consider that there is a *need* to unite ? What is your proposal for bringing about this unity ?

Since I've been gone for ages perhaps no one will even read this, but none the less...
Men can be divided but God will not let the Church itself cease to exist.
We need to focus on love and service not interpritations.

[JesusFreak4L]

dude i totally agree well said!

[New_Wineskin]

edited = I didn't realize how old this thread was . :)

[onlyzc]

yeah... like I said ages

[marke]

I agree with your statement about God using different denominations to express different things about himself to His people, but I also feel he can use them to express the same things to different people in a way they will respond to and understand.
As far as the disunity and infighting--maybe if all Christians-both denominational and non- concentrate on what we share in common rather than our differences, we would get along better. :prayer: I may not agree with all the doctines and traditions of your church, nor you mine, but we can agree to love and respect each other, right?

Celtie
The problem is... people don't want to conform their beliefs to scripture. John 3:19 is in full force.

Take the question "Where did Jesus give His followers permission to kill?" that has been posted for over a week now.

It's time to determine if this belief is of Christian origin or a misguided tradition of man.

At least 941 people have looked at this post and many have ventured an opinion, but not a single line of scripture exists to support those who claim it is permissable for a Christian to kill. In fact, Jesus speaks against the very nature of harming (Do on to others...etc) another person and returning evil for evil.

Let's start the revival of truth here.

Can we all agree that based on the fact that not a single line of NT scripture could be found by all of us who proclaim to be followers of Jesus over a period of time longer than it took God to create the universe and rest a day.... that we agree supporting the assumption Christians can kill is wrong teaching and is harmful to the soul.

We are the body of Christ. The question was presented, the evidence came in, and now all of us need to tell our brothers and sisters what we have discovered, agreed upon and help them come to the light.

Let's stand up for Jesus on this one and see if we can all start to come to the One Mind Jesus was speaking about so we can all discover the Kingdom of Heaven within.

Faith in wrong teaching is no faith at all and it's time to identify wrong teaching and help each other back on the path of truth.

Denominations or abominations. Jesus teaches on a divided house and that's what we have here. Let's find our way back to the teachings of Jesus and become One Mind at least on the most basic Christian teachings.

Say yes.

God Bless.

[onlyzc]

[quote=marke;28947371]
We are the body of Christ. The question was presented, the evidence came in, and now all of us need to tell our brothers and sisters what we have discovered, agreed upon and help them come to the light.

Let's stand up for Jesus on this one and see if we can all start to come to the One Mind Jesus was speaking about so we can all discover the Kingdom of Heaven within.

Faith in wrong teaching is no faith at all and it's time to identify wrong teaching and help each other back on the path of truth.
[quote]

I think we all agree with your statements, marke, and the question now is: How are we to spread this idea, how are we to reunite this house and become of one mind?

[TommyStrand]

I am thrilled to see christians understanding what the Church (Ekklesia) really is. The Church has never been nor will it ever be a building or a human organization. The Church is the body of Christ in every location. Who is the body of Christ? Every christian in a location belongs to the same body of Christ, the one Church.

Read 1 Cor 12

How to get there? Well, let's do what God says in His Word. Let's read it and accept it and do it. We can see the love and unity the christians shared in Acts, and do the same. Are you a brother or a sister? Let's fellowship! You are a part of the body, and so am I, let Christ move in one direction, and not be torn apart because no one have the full understand of the Bible yet. Because no one ever will while we live here. Shall a big brother say to his baby brother "We need to be seperate because you don't understand all that I do."? No, a big brother takes care of his baby brother, has patience with him and guides him regardless of how little or how much he understands."


John 13
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

[marke]

Since you stated that we all agree that the Church cannot be divided , in what way do you consider that there is a *need* to unite ? What is your proposal for bringing about this unity ?
How about starting with correct teaching.

Let's all come to Jesus as He suggests... as little children and put away our own desires and conform ourselves to His word.

For example, many believe it is OK for a Christian to kill.
It isn't. The question "Where exactly does Jesus give His followers permission to kill?" has been posted for ten days now, 1000 people have looked at it, and not one line of scripture has been produced to support this assertion. The only scripture we have speaks against killing. Let us start by all coming to agreement on this one subject then go on to the next.

There is a lot of wrong teaching out there, but for those who wish not to be among the goats in the end days, scripture is clear if you choose to follow it.

God Bless.

[marke]

[quote=marke;28947371]
We are the body of Christ. The question was presented, the evidence came in, and now all of us need to tell our brothers and sisters what we have discovered, agreed upon and help them come to the light.

Let's stand up for Jesus on this one and see if we can all start to come to the One Mind Jesus was speaking about so we can all discover the Kingdom of Heaven within.

Faith in wrong teaching is no faith at all and it's time to identify wrong teaching and help each other back on the path of truth.
[quote]

I think we all agree with your statements, marke, and the question now is: How are we to spread this idea, how are we to reunite this house and become of one mind?
We stand up to the transgressors and tell them if they can't find any basis for their assertions in NT scripture, they need to quit spreading wrong teaching and conform their opinions to correct teaching.

We are the body of Christ. The question was presented, the evidence came in, and now all of us need to tell our brothers and sisters what we have discovered, agreed upon and help them come to the light.

I tell you, it's like pulling teeth trying to come to the most basic agreement, but if we all seek to become one mind, we can do it.

God Bless.

[TommyStrand]

As of today a whooooole bunch of christians, most of them, to be honest, are spiritually raped. And still a whole bunch of those calling themselves christian, aren't.

The simle thing we need to do is decide whether we want to follow God or men. If we want to follow God, then let's start doing what He commanded. Study the bible diligently to find out what is HIS will on every subject, we are not entitled to our own oppinions when an answer is already given by God. And pray, pray pray.

We are one family. Not one of us have all the understanding alone. we need to work together, study together, until we come to the unity of the faith.

[onlyzc]

The ideas I have heard stated are as follows(correct me if I'm wrong):
-Our ideas and interpritations are meaningless compared to the ausome knowlage and wisdom of God, so let no man claim he absolutely understands mind of God, though we all have insight into his will with the Bible.
-Christians need to learn to take faith and act upon what they know, not what they believe. We must completely love God with all of our hearts, souls, and minds, and love our neighbors as ourselves. These are not points of contention. Until we can honestly claim to have "completed" such tasks, let's not bite of more than we can chew.
-Finally, to accomplish the previous two, we must constantly serve, study, and evaluate ourselves, not evaluate others.
If we can resonably agree on these three summations, then what I'm really looking for are tangilbe actions.
Specifically small daily works to, at least, slowly unite ourselves with others, and there in seal some of the fissures in the church.
Sorry did mean to carry on so much. Take my meager words as you will, remember their just my words.

[New_Wineskin]

How about starting with correct teaching.


That is the ery reason why people say that Christians *are* divided . They all want and demand "correct teaching" but it is always *their* teaching that they are discussing . They are rarely the same .


Let's all come to Jesus as He suggests... as little children and put away our own desires and conform ourselves to His word.


You mean - the Law ? How about conforming ourselves to Jesus Himself instead of the written code ?



For example, many believe it is OK for a Christian to kill.
It isn't. The question "Where exactly does Jesus give His followers permission to kill?" has been posted for ten days now, 1000 people have looked at it, and not one line of scripture has been produced to support this assertion. The only scripture we have speaks against killing. Let us start by all coming to agreement on this one subject then go on to the next.

There is a lot of wrong teaching out there, but for those who wish not to be among the goats in the end days, scripture is clear if you choose to follow it.

God Bless.

We won't agree on that teaching . I know that , to protect others , I am allowed to kill .

I would rather follow the Lord instead of my own limited mental abilities tied to my own limited knowledge and interpretation of the Law combined with the fact that we don't have the original Scriptures and the translators do not have a perfect interpretation of the various different copies available to begin with .

[onlyzc]

I don't mean to be rude, but might we focus on trying to unite instead of picking out more ideas we disagree upon. I'm not sure I agree with all marke has said, but how did your post just glorify God?

[glo1]

Good thread! :)

I like to think of myself just as a follower of Christ!

Actually, since becoming a member here, I have been a little confused.
I attend a non-denominational church with pentecostal leanings, and describe myself as fairly liberal ... so which denominational forum should I be a part of???

Perhaps I am having an identity crisis ... :eek: :scratch:

glo

[onlyzc]

Need we be part of a specific denomination at all? Can't we just be "followers of christ"? Find a church you can serve in, not neccisarrily one philisophically you agree with. We attend church to worship and serve. If you're convinced they are not following the Word of God correctly, maybe the need your insight and opinions.

[onlyzc]

Hope I'm not ruffling to many feathers or steping on to many nerves. Just the way I understand His teachings, limited as I am.

[New_Wineskin]

I don't mean to be rude, but might we focus on trying to unite instead of picking out more ideas we disagree upon. I'm not sure I agree with all marke has said, but how did your post just glorify God?

How did *your* post "glorify" "God" ? How is glorifying the Law instead of the Spirit "glorifying" ? Raising the Law as the means of salvation and how to do that is a main reason why there is the *look* of division in the first place .

Why are you trying to make a claim that we are not united ? If you claim that we are divided , why not bring specific explanation why you think that we are and how to unite us ?

[TommyStrand]

Hehe, calm down New_Wineskin.

The very fact that 2 christians neighbours dont fellowship because one is a methodist and the other a pentecostal is proof enough that we are divided. In one small area we have today maybe 10 buildings and all the christians go to one or the other because they don't want to fellowship with everyone, just the few who suit them.

Your next question to onlyzc how to unite us is the specific question he asked in this forum, for ideas and oppinions.

Peace brother. If you lash out against a brother, you lash out against Christ.

[New_Wineskin]

Hehe, calm down New_Wineskin.

The very fact that 2 christians neighbours dont fellowship because one is a methodist and the other a pentecostal is proof enough that we are divided.


To me , that only says that 2 religious people are divided , not Christians although they are christians ( but I see that you also use the small "c" for such things ) .



In one small area we have today maybe 10 buildings and all the christians go to one or the other because they don't want to fellowship with everyone, just the few who suit them.


This goes along with the false doctrine of the *must* *need* of being a part of a local "church" . These aren't churches but clubs . But , since they have the false doctrine that I mentioned , they don't see it . They refuse to assemble with believers and so are hypocrites when they insist on the Law of "Assembly" that they like to quote and which is one of the reasons why they have the flase doctrine .

So , how about *that* as a start ? NO local assemblies !! NO "must* on a shceduled organized membership group that has anything other than the creed as doctrine ?

Oh yeah - NO MORE wasting of valuable farmland for their clubhouses ? Give the land back .



Your next question to onlyzc how to unite us is the specific question he asked in this forum, for ideas and oppinions.


Ok . I just provided two stepping stones ( the third was a personal desire ) .



Peace brother. If you lash out against a brother, you lash out against Christ.

If you falsely accuse a sibling of lashing out , you falsely accuse the Christ . Jesus and Paul both sounded a bit harsh on the topic of requiring the Law for righetousness . Peace to you , sibling . :)

[onlyzc]

Then, thank you, friend. If walls, false doctrines, and legalisms are what seperates us then we need to work on breaking them down. I think we agree more than disagree. Christians are not devided in faith, but by "religions," "clubs," etc. No one is emplying that one must by part of a local orginazation to be a Follower.

[New_Wineskin]

Then, thank you, friend. If walls, false doctrines, and legalisms are what seperates us then we need to work on breaking them down. I think we agree more than disagree. Christians are not devided in faith, but by "religions," "clubs," etc.


Okie dokie . :)
Thanks .



No one is emplying that one must by part of a local orginazation to be a Follower.

Really ? Do you mean none on this thread or none in general ? I ask this because there are a great many who say that one must do so . They even have negative terms that they use for those that don't ... "lone ranger christian" and "church hopper" . It is quite interesting .

[onlyzc]

Merely this thread. Churches of today are often buildings alone.

[onlyzc]

Any other suggestions, actionable ones?