"New Testament Jew Trap"

[RyanLJohnson1]

A couple of days ago I was upset by my father. Here is the story.

Well, it all started with my sister. She found out that I had become Messianic, and I tried to explain it to her (she's 15) and she got the wrong impression... I told her that I AM NOT Jewish.

Sure enough, she runs upstairs and says to my dad, "Ryan thinks that he's a Jew!" and then it got silent, and I know that they were conversing... then I heard some laughs...

Everything to eat for the next 3 days included swine. EVERYTHING. I do not kid. I refused every bit of it except for part of a sandwich, which I ate out of thanksgiving...

My dad picked up on this, and confronted me. He repeatitively asked my WHY I did not want to eat swine, and I kept silent because I know that he has always held the opinion that the Torah was "completely abolished and useless." He finished off his schpiel with "I hope you haven't fallen into that New Testament Jew trap." I think that he meant to say "****" instead of "trap" :sick:

This has been bugging me for the past few days. Why would he say something like this? :scratch: What is going on here?! :eek: I am so confused.

Love in Yeshua,
Ryan

[Henaynei]

he does not understand, and/or he is convicted - either way almost ALL Messianic Gentiles have to endure such from their family and acquaintences to one degree or another - it generally does not stop, though they may tire of it after a while, and some even grant a level of acceptance when confronted consistantly with a loving humble commitment that is non-jugemental, over a considerable period of time. Do not desire nor lament the lack of their approval - only to HaShem need you be concerned.... keep your face turned toward Him. Treat your family with honor and respect, while not disobeying HaShem....

[mjterry87]

My father does not understand either. He never made me eat pork, but he questions me sometimes when I don't eat it. My mother is very accepting though, even though she does not really agree with me, she accepts it. My father is set in his ways, he hates Jews period. I just keep my faith to myself.

[The Thadman]

I hear you completely. The biggest point of friction between us would have to be Sabbath observance. He needed some help reworking the garden on a Saturday afternoon and I politely told him that I was not able to... much to his dismay. He boldly shouted at me "C'mon, Steve, you're not a Jew!" To which I responded respectfully, "I cannot compromise." It was the last time I heard him complain. The man who usually makes things so difficult for me just acquiesced for no reason that I could tell. Now whenever he makes something with pork he'll make something separate for me without it (every once and a while in the same pan, but hey, life isn't perfect and I appreciate his efforts ;) ).

My Grandparents, however, did not like the idea of keeping Tahor in accordance with Levitical Law. It's very difficult to confront the people who are putting you through college and are helping you out with family troubles about why you can't eat the shrimp scampi that they made at $X.00 a pound with their own two hands especially for you, that you loved last week but why not now? Once again, I respectfully held the position that "I cannot compromise" and they, too, after a 2 hour debate, finally respected my wishes (under the stipulation that I keep a list of foods that I can and cannot eat posted, I'm not kidding :) ). I'm lucky that my Grandparents are respectful of me, especially on issues of the Bible.

The one who really gets it, however, would be my Other Half. Her father is a Born Again Athiest™ and doesn't think twice about telling you what you've done wrong, why you are the one who caused everything bad to happen in Iraq because you supported Bush, and why there can't possibly be a God. Although he accommodates her for food, the Sabbath is a real obstacle. If he wants something done, and it's between sundown Friday and sundown Saturday, he'll get angry. He also leaves her with nothing to eat if they decide to go out to dinner on Friday nights, as he doesn't understand we believe that it constitutes mlakhah.

In short:

Matthew 5:1-20

Peace!
-Steve-o

[mjterry87]

Gentile's just don't understand. That is why I feel much closer to the Jews than to the Christians. Either way us Messianics both have different ideas from the Christians and Jews, but that is a good thing, because both religions have problems. :D

[RyanLJohnson1]

Thanks guys, I have received much encouragement from all of you. I am glad to know that I have a strong connection amoung you.

I refer to the Gentiles as "the heathen," even though I myself am a Gentile. I am not about to compromise with HaShem... never, no way! I do not mean to be judgmental, but many Gentiles just.... don't take G-d's ways seriously. For example, there was this praise and worship song the other night and some of the lyrics went something like this: "I will follow all of Your ways." Everybody was singing it, and it's so hippocritical.

The Sabbath + Gentiles = Is it really the Sabbath?

EVERY Gentile I know "observes" the Sabbath on the 1st day instead of the 7th and they don't even observe it anyway! They don't even remember what they are doing. Even my own father works on the Sabbath :doh:And then I'm the one to be criticized for not eating pork! Seventh day adventists rock my world ;)

When it comes to the Sabbath, I cannot help but respect the Amish! I grew up with the Amish and one of my best friends was Amish. One day he was over on the 7th day.... and me, being your typical Gentile, was doing work. I was cutting down trees and dragging them around and the sort. He warned me that he mustn't do work on that day. I couldn't figure out why, the only thing that I could think is that he had the day of the Sabbath messed up or something, either that or the Amish were crazy. Not only does being Messianic bring me closer to HaShem, it brings me closer to the Amish and the Jews!!! PRAISE BE TO G-D!!! :bow:

I've always wondererd if the Amish are Torah observant... because you know, if you look at them from a distance with their black hat and beard, they look like an Orthodox Jew. Does anybody know if they are Torah abservant at all? :scratch:

Well, thanks for the help. I deeply appreciate it.

Love in Yeshua,
Ryan

[Mother Vashti]

Well, go easy on your pops. It can be alarming to see your kids believing and pursuing something outside the teachings you design for them as a responsible parent. It probably doesn't help his nerves that your sister is telling it out in the worst way possible.

Try to reassure the poor guy that everything is okay, and there's nothing to be alarmed about.

[RyanLJohnson1]

Soon enough I will confront him and I'll be very simple with him. I'll basically say this: "Hey, we don't have to follow the Torah, and it is not required of us because we are now saved by faith and not the law, but you know what... the law still exists, and what a better way to become closer to G-d? Why follow a faith about Jesus when you can follow the faith of Jesus?" ;)

And oh yeah, I've had a person tell me that I shouldn't even be following the Torah. Whatever happened to doing everything that you do unto G-d? The last time I checked, G-d wrote the Torah. Spiffy-major! Double-dandy! ;)

I don't get people. I really don't.

[mjterry87]

For 2000 people have thought this way, and it will never change. We know the truth though.

[P_G]

To answer your question the Amish are not 100% Torah observent as they do not observe Kusrach. However among gentiles they are probably about the closest. However I don't think they would be seen that way for a lack of a love of Isreal.

The Mennonites would come closer to that on that level but many Mennonites are non Sabatarians. But have more of a heart for Y'sreal. Having said that you would find more acceptance there if you were keeping Kosher because they would not want to do something that would cause you to stumble.

Funny aside: I am teaching a theology course in a Mennonite church and yesterday I posed the question "What day is it today" Which of course was Sunday and some said "The Lords Day" What a shocker when I read to them the reasons it was called the Lords day and how their "sabbath" was changed and by whom.

Baby steps baby steps

Pastor George :wave:

[RyanLJohnson1]

That's interesting. I wonder if my father would say that the Amish and Mennonites have fallen into this "New Testament Jew Trap." :P

[debi b]

Blessings to you! For you to be thinking things thru at your age :clap:

There are reasons why people understand the words they read in scripture the way they do. I offer the following by way of example.


NASV
1 Peter 1:24-25
For, "ALL FLESH IS LIKE GRASS, AND ALL ITS GLORY LIKE THE FLOWER OF GRASS. THE GRASS WITHERS, AND THE FLOWER FALLS OFF, BUT THE WORD OF THE L-RD ENDURES FOREVER." And this is the word which was preached to you.

There are many people who would read right over this passage. I see a flashing neon sign.

What is “the word of the L-rd”?

Important to understanding words is to know some history behind those who use them. The language of the Tenach (Old Testament) is Hebrew. It is generally agreed that the Tenach is full of concepts, idioms and phrases that are viewed as Hebraic. Scriptual writers of the Tenach spoke, taught and thought from this perspective. It is essential to understand that Peter is quoting Isaiah 40:6-8 in this passage. So when Isaiah uses the phrase “the word of the L-rd” we have to consider Isaiah's point of view. Until the Brit Chadashah (New Testament) was penned, “the word of the L-rd” was everything that Adonai/HaShem/YHVH had spoken.

When we read the English word “word” in the Brit Chadashah it is translated from the Greek word logos (in most cases). Its fundamental meaning is much the same as the Hebrew debar meaning “word”. It means thought, thing, something said or utterance. This is the dictionary definition. But its colloquial meaning after Yeshua’s (Jesus’s) time is quite different. For many from the historical church this would be seen as everything Yeshua spoke during his lifetime on earth. So we have a very subtle shift from the instructions of Adonai (especially those written in Torah) to what Yeshua spoke.

After Peter quotes Isaiah he states this is “the word which was preached to you”. Making an equation between what Isaiah considered “the word of the L-rd” and what he (Peter) considered “the word of the L-rd”.

There are so many times in the Brit Chadashah that we read right over things because the words and concepts that we read have been defined in a certain way.

So in an effort to be respectful of your parents understanding of scripture, try to understand why they see the same words and put a different meaning to them.

Hang in there – I’m pullin for ya!

[RyanLJohnson1]

Non-Messianic Gentiles get very fussy when talking about this subject. I think it is because they do not want to admit that the Torah has not been destroyed :P

[Henaynei]

be gentle and understanding with them - a gentle spirit wins more willing interest of others in such things than a trumpeting spirit - not saying you are either - just an observation ;)

[Yasatora]

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they reason, with a gentle spirit.

[RyanLJohnson1]

be gentle and understanding with them - a gentle spirit wins more willing interest of others in such things than a trumpeting spirit - not saying you are either - just an observation ;)
Oh yes, of course. This is why I didn't say much to my father. He has been how he has been for about 56 years, so for me to try to justify what I believe... and then have scriptural backing, would be devastating to him. I want to be as gentle as possible.

I don't know how to play a trumpet anyway, Hen! What were you thinking? ;)

Love in Yeshua,
Ryan

[Talmid HaYarok]

It isn't just Gentiles, I come from a mixed family and I get it from both sides. Though it is much harder on Gentiles these days as neither our culture nor our religious institutions really teach about sacredness, kosher (Clean/Unclean), or even what it means to be a people apart (let alone set apart for the Lord).

I know it won't be the least bit easy, in fact it will be very hard. But I ask knowing that to be patient with your family. They most likely won't listen to anything you speak... mine won't. But many in time might be turned to understanding by what you say with actions and by living your life purposefully.

Love the Lord with all your heart, and follow his ways always. Blessings and Encouragement be with you Ryan.

Shalom

[P_G]

It isn't just Gentiles, I come from a mixed family and I get it from both sides. Though it is much harder on Gentiles these days as neither our culture nor our religious institutions really teach about sacredness, kosher (Clean/Unclean), or even what it means to be a people apart (let alone set apart for the Lord).

I know it won't be the least bit easy, in fact it will be very hard. But I ask knowing that to be patient with your family. They most likely won't listen to anything you speak... mine won't. But many in time might be turned to understanding by what you say with actions and by living your life purposefully.

Love the Lord with all your heart, and follow his ways always. Blessings and Encouragement be with you Ryan.

Shalom



Baruch Ha'Shem

Welcome home Talmid!

Though we have not met your reputation preceedes you and your absence has been greatly felt for the last year.

Shalom Alakaim


Pastor George :wave:

[debi b]

No No Ryan - thank you! You inspire me :clap:

[By Grace]

Oh yes, of course. This is why I didn't say much to my father. He has been how he has been for about 56 years, so for me to try to justify what I believe... and then have scriptural backing, would be devastating to him. I want to be as gentle as possible.


I don't know if anyone here knows who Dave Ramsey is (he's a Christian financial advisor and has a radio talk show), but he has a phrase for this phenomenon: diapered butt syndrome! Basically, people don't generally take advise from anyone whose butt they diapered! ^_^ I'm not saying this is a good thing, of course. Both my kids are still in diapers, and I learn from them every day....;)

[RyanLJohnson1]

I don't know if anyone here knows who Dave Ramsey is (he's a Christian financial advisor and has a radio talk show), but he has a phrase for this phenomenon: diapered butt syndrome! Basically, people don't generally take advise from anyone whose butt they diapered! ^_^ I'm not saying this is a good thing, of course. Both my kids are still in diapers, and I learn from them every day....;)
Well some day, I'll probably be changing his diapers :sick: lol I can see my dad and I getting into an argument about this, and I would throw the diaper thing in the conversation (in a stupid way) and it would go something like this:

My dad: Well you know what Ryan, I'm a lot older than you and know everything!
Me: Well, ya know what, I think that you're tired of changing my diapers, and stuff, and well, ya know what? Huh? Huh?!
My dad: What?
Me: Um, well, uh... UR DIAPER NEEDS CHANGING! JUST BECAUSE YOU CHANGED MY DIAPERS DOESN'T MEAN I CAN'T CHANGE YOURS!
My dad: :confused:

There ya have it :cool:

Love in Yeshua,
Ryan

[visionary]

Well some day, I'll probably be changing his diapers :sick: lol I can see my dad and I getting into an argument about this, and I would throw the diaper thing in the conversation (in a stupid way) and it would go something like this:

My dad: Well you know what Ryan, I'm a lot older than you and know everything!
Me: Well, ya know what, I think that you're tired of changing my diapers, and stuff, and well, ya know what? Huh? Huh?!
My dad: What?
Me: Um, well, uh... UR DIAPER NEEDS CHANGING! JUST BECAUSE YOU CHANGED MY DIAPERS DOESN'T MEAN I CAN'T CHANGE YOURS!
My dad: :confused:

There ya have it :cool:
Love in Yeshua,
Ryan
^_^

I think your father should be thankful that he has a spiritually minded son. I would be.

Don't be too hard on your father. He loves you and is concerned for your well being. Tell him that you love him, and appreciate the concern. Tell him that rest assured you will make sure that it is as biblical as you can dig up the truth that is found in the Word. Tell him that you will pray to find out if it is so, and that you trust the God that lead the Israelites out of Egypt to lead you out too. Tell him that you have been blessed by the Word of God and that you want to follow Jesus (whom you know as Yeshua) and live the life he wants us to lead. Tell him in kindness, thoughtfulness, with long suffering patience.

Remember truth is given in little seed packets and are best planted in the turn over soil of the heart. I will be praying for your situation, for the softening of your father's heart regarding this, and for his salvation through your gentle "winning souls for Yeshua" spirit. :prayer:

[RyanLJohnson1]

Don't be too hard on your father. He loves you and is concerned for your well being. Tell him that you love him, and appreciate the concern. Tell him that rest assured you will make sure that it is as biblical as you can dig up the truth that is found in the Word. Tell him that you will pray to find out if it is so, and that you trust the God that lead the Israelites out of Egypt to lead you out too. Tell him that you have been blessed by the Word of God and that you want to follow Jesus (whom you know as Yeshua) and live the life he wants us to lead. Tell him in kindness, thoughtfulness, with long suffering patience.

Remember truth is given in little seed packets and are best planted in the turn over soil of the heart. I will be praying for your situation, for the softening of your father's heart regarding this, and for his salvation through your gentle "winning souls for Yeshua" spirit. :prayer:
It is clear that you are one of great wisdom :clap:

[mjterry87]

She sure is.

[Ruhama]

Ryan, may I throw in my two cents as someone who's gone down this road also:

Don't present your beliefs as something that is unequivocably right, present them as something you have decided to adopt as you have come to believe they are the better way. I don't think God condemns gentile Christians for living as gentiles, as the scripture says, only four things were decided on for gentiles to abstain from.

If you want to not freak out your parents, tell them what practices you have decided to adopt, just make a list and why you think they're a good idea. If you do it in a non-threatening way they will generally see it as a bit of a weird "thing" you've taken up but they won't be so afraid you've joined a cult or something, and they won't get so angry when they encounter something they didn't expect. If they have a thing against Jews then there's nothing to be done about it, in that case you'll just have to stand strong.

It is a much easier and kinder road to take and it still accomplishes the same goal, though, if you can convince them you are doing this because you think it will enhance your spiritual understanding. You know, like some practices that monks take up. Whatever.

If they know what your wishes are and still don't care, then it is a matter of them disrespecting YOU as a person and I think you should act the same way as if they were doing anything else that bothered you. Like bad roommates borrowing things without asking, etc. It's perfectly alright to not be ok with those things.

Sorry for the long rant but I've done the whole "I won't compromise" thing so many times - it is my nature to be like that, for the good and bad of it - and I've really hurt some people doing it that shouldn't have been so hurt.

[Ruhama]

Sorry for the multiple re-edits. I hate when I keep having to change stuff and there's like twelve people reading the thread.

[visionary]

Keep us posted so that we can keep praying with up-to-date info.

[RyanLJohnson1]

Thanks to all of you! :clap:

If something comes up, it'll be posted here ASAP!

Love in Yeshua,
Ryan

[RyanLJohnson1]

Alright, here we go guys...

My dad was driving me to a friend's house. I was in the back seat, and my sister was sitting next to him up front.

I asked him if I could go to a trap shoot this weekend. He said I could, but never asked the day. About 5 minutes later he said, "What day?" so I said "The seventh day." You see, I don't use the pagan days of the week. It is extreme, I know, but I DO NOT.

"WHAT day?" he said.
"The seventh day," I said.
"WHAT DAY?!" he said.
"The seventh day," I said, calmly. At that moment he totally spazzed out. I mean... he started yelling. I thought that he was going to pull over.
"TELL ME WHAT DAY IT IS ON. I AM TIRED OF THIS ****. WHY CAN'T YOU USE THE REGULAR DAYS OF THE WEEK LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE DOES?!
"I have chosen not to conform to this world," I said.
"WHAT DAY?!" he said, "IF YOU DON'T TELL ME THE DAY, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO YOUR FRIEND'S HOUSE" I didn't say anything.
"WHAT DAY?!" he said.
"The seventh day," I said calmy... again. He knows what day the seventh is.
"WHAT DAY?!?!?!?!?!??!!?!?!?!?!?!?! http://www.christianforum.com/images/smilies/mad.gif" there was about a 20 second pause where I didn't say anything.
"Sat........................... ur............................. day," I said. He went on from there....
"And what is this **** with you not eating pork and sausage, HUH?! What is this ****?! IT'S CRAZY. There is a whole section in the New Testament dealing with that, and I suggest you read it, you're caught up in a lot of GARBAGE and I SUGGEST THAT YOU READ THE NEW TESTAMENT, and I'm not going to talk about it again until you do," he said. I felt like saying, "You should read Matthew. Especially Matthew 5:17," but I didn't say it. I kept silent, once again. He kept on going on, and on, and on, and on about how I was messed up in what I am doing.
"You once told me that what I do, I should do unto G-d. That is what I am doing. I am doing this unto G-d," I said.
"I was referring to YOUR JOB, Ryan, I wasn't referring to anything else," he said.
"Well," I said, "it can be applied to anything," Silence. I think I got him on that one... I was trying to convey that I am doing this unto G-d, and that there is nothing for him to worry about. He went further...
"If you are getting this **** from Rood (A Rood Awakening) then you better root him out, you know what, I'm going to root out the sources that are bringing you to this nonsense, you know what, Rood dresses up like he's some prophet, and Jesus wouldn't do that, Jesus would be lecturing people dressed just like us, he wouldn't be dressed up like some Jewish prophet, he'd be dressed up like any of us! That's why people didn't recognize him!" he said. I wanted to tell him about the wings (tzit-tzit) on the corners of Jesus' garment, and how Jesus was a Rabbi (and a prophet Himself!), but I didn't bring it up. I really didn't want to say anything, because him being soo much older than me and me saying one little thing... he would pound me to the ground. I mean, I was being silent and he was going on and on and on and ON and ON! He went even FURTHER!
"You know, this is how cults develop! With small, stupid, meaningless things like this! They attach to one thing, blah blah blah!" he said. Then he started going on about my salvation. It was like he thought I was doing this to "further my salvation" or to be saved altogether. I clearly said to him, "This is not about salvation." He went on anyway. So, he basically put me on par with the Jehovah's Witnesses. He put us all on this par. From the conversation, it was as if he is anti-Semitic. He alluded to it indirectly... he thinks that all Jews are "messed up" or something.

Once again, I kept my cool. I was smiling, actually... and it wasn't a smirk http://www.christianforum.com/images/smilies/smile.gif The whole thing reminded me of how Jesus was mocked and scorned and how he kept his cool. It is obvious that he has no respect for the decisions I have made, and he told me to "pray that I come to the right decision." (this is ironic because some of you told me to tell him that I am praying that I come to the right decision!!!)

I haven't said one thing to him to suggest that I am "right and he is wrong," and instead I have maintained my peace and told him the following:

I have made the decisions I have made not to further my salvation or gain salvation.
I am doing what I am doing unto G-d.
I am doing what I am doing as to not conform to this world.
If you do it in a non-threatening way they will generally see it as a bit of a weird "thing" you've taken up but they won't be so afraid you've joined a cult or something, and they won't get so angry when they encounter something they didn't expect.Months ago I came to my dad and clearly told him that the pagan system makes me sick and that I will not be using it. I even showed him an article about it, and he agreed that it was sick. He was OK with it then, but now... he started spazzing. He was ANGRY.

He knows exactly what I am doing when it comes to being Torah observant. He feels that the whole thing is wrong and uninformed. He even told me to "read the New Testament" http://www.christianforum.com/images/smilies/redface.gif That's a huge insult.

This is something that he has to take in over a long period of time... and unfortunately, my dad has a stronghold in my sister. My sister is hearing my father's end of it, and will now grow up just as him. All of my sister's friends are very respectful of my decisions, so perhaps they will influence my sister... but I don't know. I have become very worried about what my father has been saying. To someone as young as my sister (15) it might be enough to inspire anti-Semitism and the "I'm right and you are wrong!" mentality. Please pray for all of us. http://www.christianforum.com/images/smilies/prayer.gif

Love in Yeshua,
Ryan

[visionary]

So ....since he suggested reading the new testament, ask him if he would like to make it a family bible study.....and prayerfully ask the Lord to join your group in study of His word. May the spirit of Yeshua prevail.

[RyanLJohnson1]

The day that I made this post I printed out the following article:

http://www.bethshechinah.com/torah4Gentile.html

I went through it with a highlighter and highlighted the most interesting and hard-hitting points for him. I gave it to him right before I went to bed (and then scooted off ;) ) so he would have no other decision other than to read it.

Well, he hasn't said anything about it. I saw it laying on the couch next to where he sits today, and there are notes EVERYWHERE on it!!! :| I mean... wherever there was a blank space before, there is now writing now. I tried to get a glimpse of it without him seeing me, and all I saw was "shed his blood," so I'm guessing he's going to deem me apostate by saying that I am re-crucifying Christ :help:

This is scaring me. He is going to call me up one day and is going to pound me with what he has to say. He won't let me speak, either. And, if I do speak, he won't listen. I know because I have had debates with him before... you see, he's an English teacher and what he says goes... and since he's an English teacher that probably made it a little easier for him to pick the article apart... because I think that he tore it into little bits and made a bazillion comments and arguments :eek: The most outstanding thing I can think of to show him is a prophecy from Jeremiah...

Jeremiah 16:19

Please pray for me...

Love in Yeshua,
Ryan