Know your role!

[insaneinthebrain]

A recent post I came across here at CF referred to Paul's "less than favorable" view of women. While I disagree, this seems to be a fairly common interpretation. Likewise, in the MJ community and Christianity in general, we find varying types of replacement theology that have come about because the Gentiles don't want to be viewed as "second class." (an interpretation I also disagree with ;))

So, let's hash this all out once and for all. In the Torah observant community:
What is the role of man?
What is the role of woman?
What is the role of the Jew?
What is the role of the Gentile?

[Yasatora]

It is a good thing you used the word "role" for all positions are for the glory of the Lord. Everyone has a part they must play to fulfill those "roles". In the eyes of the Lord, they are important, in the order of things, the balance, and the creative design which he purposed, preordained from the before the beginning of time, and who are we but instruments in His Hands to do His will.

[P_G]

Role?

I prefer a bagel thank you!


PG :wave:

[By Grace]

I don't know what everyone else here thinks, but I've been doing a lot of studying on this lately, and here's where I am now:

I don't think G-d really differentiates between men and women when handing out His gifts and designing His plan for us. He takes into account the individual, of course, with their own personality and circumstances, etc. But other than childbearing and the necessary physical differences, I think we're all just His children. Y'shua said we won't marry when we're in Heaven because we'll be like the angels. Basically, I think this means our gender differences will be either nonexistent or irrelevant. So I think that's what G-d intended for here, too. That was all messed up when sin entered the world, but I think that now that we're redeemed and made new again, we're called according to our individual relationships with G-d, not according to our gender. So that means I think women should be equally involved in church leadership, and what that means is that men and women should be equally responsible for service in the church. I don't think there should be different types of roles for a woman as there are for a man. I think there should be female elders and female teachers and female preachers, etc. I'm not advocating feminism as the secular movement would define itself. I don't think women are better than men. But I think that G-d is just as capable of equipping a woman with the ability to lead as He is capable of equipping a man. I think the church has stunted its growth by restricting over half its membership from the decision-making process and the leadership positions. I think that G-d will restore women to their rightful place of equality, and that this will be a crucial part of the process of preparing the church for its ultimate victory.

So that's what I think, not that that means much. I don't know how much of that everyone here would agree with, but I think I can provide Scriptural support for what I believe if you're interested, and if I can't, then I need to change what I believe!

Just my .02...

edited to add a comment: Obviously there are physical differences and a tendency to personality differences. I think we were designed to have differences so we could appreciate those differences in each other. But I don't think that means that we have different sets of responsibilities when it comes to overcoming the world or leading the church. Just my thoughts...

[JewishHeart]

I believe like the thread poster believes. Men have a role, and women have a role. None is better than the other. I do believe that when the men do not rise to the occasion in their calling G-d finds a woman (Kathryn Kuhlman for example). Just like when Jewish believers do not rise to the occasion to be the called apostolic leaders of the church they are supposed to be, G-d finds Gentiles. However, if we want to see kingdom fruit, we have to fulfill our kingdom callings as Jew, Gentile, Men, And Women.

[Katydid]

I Believe that women do have completely different roles than men. Ours are different though no less important. OK I can't figure out how to write this without some women getting completely mad at me. But basically, I don't think women should lead men, I also don't think that women should put their work above their family. I don't think men should "RULE" over women. But, I do believe that they should be the head of the household.

Jews will always be G-d's chosen ones, and as Gentiles I feel we need to support them as much as possible.

[By Grace]

I think there may be a difference between how men and women relate to each other within a marriage, with regards to authority, from how they should relate to each other in the church as a whole. Within marriage, we're told the husband is "head of the wife as Christ is head of the church." (Eph 5:23) I realize there is much debate on whether the NT was written originally in Greek or in Aramaic or Hebrew, but all I have to go on at this point is the Greek (and I'm getting this material from other experts, since I'm certainly no expert!). But the Greek word used here for head is kephale, which does not refer to the "ruler" or "boss" or "captain" who would command from a safe distance, but rather refers to the first soldier into battle, the one who takes all the heat. That is exactly what Y'shua did for us--He took the heat of battle onto Himself so that we are free to have the blesssings without the curse of death.

That passage also discusses that wives should submit to their husbands. But earlier, in Eph 5:21, he says "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ." We are all to submit to each other! Men to men, women to women, men to women, and women to men. This doesn't mean to obey in the sense of a slave obeying his master, or a child his parent. In Eph 6:1, the word translated "obey" is hupakouo and refers to a child obeying his parents. But in Eph 5:21 and 22, he uses hupotasso in its middle voice form, hupotassomai, which means "tend to the needs of", "be supportive of", or "be responsive to" in a way that is willing and voluntary and absolutely cannot be forced. This is the attitude we should all have towards each other.

Now with regards to women in the church, I think there is much support for women serving as teachers just like men do. For example, there's the frequent reference to the verse "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Gal 3:28) And don't forget Acts 2:17, 18: "...Your sons and daughters will prophesy,..." and "Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy." Certainly prophecy would be a form of leadership (see next paragraph). There are references to women following Y'shua (Luke 8:1-3), and learning from His teaching, which was basically unheard of at that time. And G-d frequently used women as witnesses to the great things He had done, such as Y'shua's own resurrection, Sh'aul's release from prison, and the Samaritan woman's conversation with Y'shua at the well (was she the first 'missionary' to those outside of Orthodox Judaism?).

Then there are specific women leaders within the Messianic community, as well as the famous women of the Tanakh: Miriam (Micah 6:4), Deborah (Judges 4 and 5), Huldah (2 Kings 22:14-20), Esther (the whole book of Esther); Phoebe, called a deaconess (Rom 16:1-2), Priscilla, and note her name is listed before her husband's (Rom 16:3-5 and Acts 18:18, 26), and Philip's daughters, called prophetesses (Acts 21:9), among other women. Obviously, women can be and some are gifted to lead within the church body. This doesn't mean they are rulers over men, any more than a male preacher would be a ruler over any in his congregation. It means that G-d sometimes gives women the spiritual gifts that are related to leading other followers. In 1 Cor 14, Paul says we should "eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy" and goes on to explain that those who prophesy "speak to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort" and "he who prophesies edifies the church." If the gift of prophecy is the most desirable, and it is specifically stated that women will prophesy and that women in the Messianic community did prophesy, then where is the confusion?