What do you guys think of monasticism?

[Archbishop 10-K]

This is an honest, non-debate question directed at non-Catholic Christians in general. I didn't know where to put it, so I put it here.

My question is: what do you think of monasticism? I mean, like monks and nuns. I've noticed that the Protestant Reformers dropped the idea of monasticism almost immediately, and today, only Catholics become monks or nuns. The Protestant countries shut down the monasteries and convents, although they were a major source of relief for the poor and needy. I was wondering: why?

[Nater_Tater]

I envy Monks and Nuns for thier deep commitment to their faith.

[Archbishop 10-K]

I imagine that being a monk would be very appealing for any Christian, since it makes prayer into an occupation (many monks pray 8 hours a day.) Plus they devote a lot of time to helping the needy and whatnot. And if you have objections to Catholic doctrines, you could just start a Lutheran, or Baptist, or evangelical monastery.

[BarbB]

After being "saved" I was confirmed in the Episcopal Church. They retain the principle of monasticism. I don't know about men, but women can become nuns. As I was a new widow, the idea was very attractive to me. It still is, for that matter, though I am no longer Episcopalian! :)

I believe that some people have a calling to the life in its original sense of separation from the world for prayer.

Just some thoughts ---

[Anti-Fear]

if it helps monks and nuns then I have no problem with it. Certain institutional rules don't really make sense to me though.

[Archbishop 10-K]

Certain institutional rules don't really make sense to me though.

Well, it's just a voluntary, disciplinary thing. The various vows are all meant to express piety and further glorify God.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

[/size][/font]

Well, it's just a voluntary, disciplinary thing. The various vows are all meant to express piety and further glorify God.
Agreed. I think it is a very good thing. If someone wants to try extra hard to please God, may they be blessed in doing so. As long as they have communion, make disciples, and follow the commands, anything voluntarily extra is great!

[Archbishop 10-K]

I suppose everyone thinks monasticism is potentially a good idea.

Back to the original question: does anyone know why only the Catholic (and apparently, Anglican) Church does monasticism?

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I suppose everyone thinks monasticism is potentially a good idea.

Back to the original question: does anyone know why only the Catholic (and apparently, Anglican) Church does monasticism?
Its the division and denomination thing. People are too concerned about stupid things and not about God. I know my church has been building a system of monks and a special order of knights.

[Anti-Fear]

I think if a protestant wants to practice something similar to monasticism they just do it at home without any kind of special communal house where they live.



I suppose everyone thinks monasticism is potentially a good idea.

Back to the original question: does anyone know why only the Catholic (and apparently, Anglican) Church does monasticism?

[Asaph]

I suppose everyone thinks monasticism is potentially a good idea.

mmmmmmm........not everybody. We are not told to hide from the world, just not to be of the world. How can we display the Love of God if we aren't interacting with the sinners who need to see it?

Personally, man I'd love to be a monk. Getting to spend your every waking moment in study or prayer without the nasty distractions of a sinful and corrupted world.

Grace and Peace,
Asaph

[Lynn73]

I have to agree. They can't fulfill the Great Commission locked away from the world behind closed doors. There's a lot about that I don't understand. There's nothing in the Bible about nuns and monks. Of course, their charity and helping people is a good thing.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Being a monk doesn't have to mean hiding. A true monk not only spends a lot of time with God, but goes out into the world and helps others. It's not like in the movies where they are locked in 10 foot square stone cubicles.

[Matrona]

today, only Catholics become monks or nuns.Just bumping into this thread to correct you on this... there are LOTS of Eastern Orthodox monks and nuns! Agio Oros (http://www.inathos.gr/)is the monastic capital of the Holy Orthodox Faith.

[Archbishop 10-K]

Just bumping into this thread to correct you on this... there are LOTS of Eastern Orthodox monks and nuns!

Sorry. I just tend to lump Catholic and Orthodox together since they're very similar (I will sometimes say things like only Catholics believe in transsubstantiation, although so do Orthodox.)

I have to agree. They can't fulfill the Great Commission locked away from the world behind closed doors. There's a lot about that I don't understand. There's nothing in the Bible about nuns and monks.

Actually, monasteries and convents are required to be self-suppoting. That means they have to engage in some sort of business. For example, in the old days, monks copied and sold Bibles (and still do, except with printing press.) Today, the radition lives on. www.lasermonks.com (http://www.lasermonks.com) will get you some really excellent deals on ink cartridges. And they pray for you. Bet you don't get the same service you would at Office Depot.

And by the way, did you know that there were monastics in Jesus' time? There was a denomination back then called the Essenes, and they lived a lot like monks.

[Lynn73]

I think I've heard of the Essenes but don't know a lot about them.

Jesus definitely didn't live like a monk. :-)

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I think I've heard of the Essenes but don't know a lot about them.

Jesus definitely didn't live like a monk. :-)
That depends on your definition of a monk

[PaladinGirl]

I think the devotion of monks and nuns is very inspiring. However, I could never be one because I have major disagreements with Catholic theology.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Then be a Protestant monk, or maybe a non denom one. Or better yet, forget the differences and unite!

[Wisdom's Child]

And by the way, did you know that there were monastics in Jesus' time? There was a denomination back then called the Essenes, and they lived a lot like monks.


I think that the followers and disciples of John the Baptist are considered to be either Essenes or very very similar. From what I have read about them, they lived in caves out in the Judean Wilderness and were very focused on Prayer and Purification rituals.

[PaladinGirl]

Then be a Protestant monk, or maybe a non denom one. Or better yet, forget the differences and unite!
Is there really such a thing as Protestant or Non-Denominational monks/nuns?

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Yes, but we might as well forget the differences and strive for unity.

[Eusebios]

Just an FYI, but Monasticism is alive and quite well in the Orthodox Church as well. I need to get to bed now, so I'll have to rejoin this cool discussion later.
Under His Mercy,
Eusebios.
:bow:

[gzt]

Its the division and denomination thing. People are too concerned about stupid things and not about God. I know my church has been building a system of monks and a special order of knights.
Knights? Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Knights? Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
If we get a knight newsletter, I'll let you know. As of yet, they well be trained in prayer and intercession, crusading around the world on horseback and praying for all kinds of people. The real Christian knights, fully equipped with the armor of God :)

[gzt]

We are not told to hide from the world, just not to be of the world. How can we display the Love of God if we aren't interacting with the sinners who need to see it?

Personally, man I'd love to be a monk. Getting to spend your every waking moment in study or prayer without the nasty distractions of a sinful and corrupted world.
The other people in the monastery are sinners who need to see the love of God, too. One can be a monk for 60 years and still have a bad temper. I think the key to monasticism is that it shows that a man can live radically apart from the world in service of Christ, owning nothing and trusting in God to provide, and also to perfect charity in the context of communal life which is the image of the love of the Trinity. The Carthusians [hermits] are a light to the world despite not allowing visitors in this way. But most other orders allow visitors and often have writers and the monastic witness rubs off in that way, too. Besides, consider the "Sayings of the Desert Fathers": perhaps you haven't read or even heard of them, but they are sayings of hermits out in the desert who had very very few visitors but the book profoundly influenced all of Christian spirituality.

As for being one: except you don't spend every waking moment in study or prayer [except considering the injunction to pray without ceasing]. You also do hard manual labor, since most monasteries are agricultural communities and don't have a need for academics. And the world of the monastery is still sinful and corrupted. There is no magic sin-free land, the entire world is fallen. There's no gimmick to religious life. But you certainly do spend a good amount of time in prayer in a monastery.

[gzt]

Is there really such a thing as Protestant or Non-Denominational monks/nuns?
Taize?

[Lynn73]

I think the devotion of monks and nuns is very inspiring. However, I could never be one because I have major disagreements with Catholic theology.
Yes, me too. :)

[Simon_Templar]

Archbishop,

The primary motivating factor (from what I remember) during the reformation for doing away with monasteries and convents was the idea of celibacy in the clergy and enforced celibacy within religious orders. Protestant reformers, and the modern catholic church don't believe that celibacy is required, but going even further many of the reformers and some of the moderns think it is actually inapropriate for clergy. This is taken from two factors, first is the original reason that the catholic church instituted mandatory celibacy and also a scriptural reason.

First the catholic church originaly instituted mandatory celibacy for the clergy not over scriptural issues but over property and inheritance issues. Many times local nobility would donate property to the local churches, and technicaly the donation belonged to the priest in most cases, thus if the priest was married the donation of land would be inherited by his children and pass out of the church. The church wanted to prevent this situation, which was understandably sticky since the donation was originaly meant to go to the church and not to become someone elses private property. As a result the church simply forbade priests to marry. Protestants saw this as another factor of the church's greed similar to selling indulgences etc.

Secondly, in paul's list of qualifications for being a pastor or elder of a church he states that the man must be "the husband of one wife" many protestants believe that this is a stricture that means not only must the man not have more than one wife, but he must have exactly one wife, in other words he must be married.

Neither of these deals specificly with monasteries or convents but they created an attitude in the reformation and the subsequent protestant church which was more favorable to marriage than to celibacy, it viewed celibacy as much more of a rare aberation of a few chosen people, and that marriage was a good thing that christians should persue. Additionaly many of the priests who got married after becoming lutheran or what have you, married nuns, because both were devoted to God's work.

Another problem with monasticism from a protestant perspective is the idea of seclusion from the world. Protestants tend to view this as a useless escapism when they should be in the world doing the work of the Kingdom. Obviously monasteries did serve public uses for the poor etc, but alot of this depended on what order the monastery was as well.


Personaly I find many aspects of the monastic Ideal very appealing, the discipline, the devotion, even the seclusion from the filth and mire of the world. I think that monasticism would need to be modified (as it indeed was a number of times during the middle ages when older orders became corrupt, or lost their vision) but it might be one of the cases where the protestants threw out the baby with the bath water.

[PaladinGirl]

Yes, me too. :)
Which part of my post did you agree with Lynn? By the way, did you know that Lynn is my middle name? :)

[Lynn73]

It's my middle name, too, ha ha. I agree with you about having major disagreements with Catholic theology.

[Simon_Templar]

A note too about monks seclusion from society...

Technicaly monks in the original sense were secluded from the world and did not go out into the world. The only contact they had with the world would be when local poor etc would be let into the monastery to receive food etc.

The first order to actually go out into the world were fransiscans. This was actually quite a revolution and fransiscans were not called monks originaly but friars. The primary difference being that monks were secluded, whereas friars didn't live in monasteries but rather traveled among the people living off charity and serving in whatever capacity they could.

Of course as time passed the original ideals of orders were lost or ignored and the lines of such distinctions blurred.

[5Judges12]

Something that the Protestants have kept is the ability to lead a life devoted to prayer and the study of God. No, it's not a monk, but we do have Seminaries full of professors who do nothing but pray, study and teach for a living.

The New Testament and the Epistles make clear that gifts are given for the benefit of the world. Total seclusion from the world is seen as a waste of the gifts. Also, the Reformers acknowledged that singleness (celibacy) is a separate gift, removing the stipulation as necessary for spiritual growth and leadership.

Walking away from the headaches of this world has held a high appeal to me during certain frustrating times in my life, but there isn't any real Biblical support for the idea. I've looked :prayer: .

[PaladinGirl]

It's my middle name, too, ha ha. I agree with you about having major disagreements with Catholic theology.
Ah ok! Thanks for the info Lynn!

[Chloe~]

I think that the Bible actually does talk about monks... I had a talk yesterday with some brothers in Christ (who are in fact theologians) and they mentioned those parts of the Bible to me.

Actually, I really think it makes sense... I used to think that monasticism has no purpose, since they are separated from the world, but it actually makes sense now... Some people may feel a calling for that way of life. They may have a gift of celibacy and may want to dedicate themselves entirely to prayer, fasting, serving... It makes sense that there should be a way for them to minister to God in that way; to pray for those outside, called to a different way of Christian life.

I plan to read books by St. Theresa of Avil and St. John of the Cross, Christian mystics, as I heard they are very inspiring and deep.

[Crispie]

btw...enys a sin. But anyway, should we have Monks and Nuns? Is it biblical? No.., bible says Elders, bishops, pastors, all that, but I dont see any monks and nuns...

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

btw...enys a sin. But anyway, should we have Monks and Nuns? Is it biblical? No.., bible says Elders, bishops, pastors, all that, but I dont see any monks and nuns...
And can you lock down pastor either? It is mentioned one time in the Bible with somewhat of an idefinite meaning. Because people use different terms doesn't really change what they are doing. The Bible doesn't talk about Christian schools, yet where would Paul be if he had not been raised a Jew? And the Bible doesn't talk about monks either, but that doesn't make them evil. Most of the NT simply addresses concerns of the churches, not listing every single doctrine.

Anyways, a lot of monks are just teachers who meet together and learn. If a monk doesn't spread his/her knowledge and help others with it, it can be bad, but otherwise it is actually a good idea. People need more knowledge of the Bible.

[Rebirth In Flames]

God uses us in different ways, and to try and understand God’s motives and reasoning is foolish since our minds have limits and are infected with sin. I’ve thought about monasticism my whole life, but for me it’s not what God’s calling me to be because personally I feel that I need to be out in the world face-to-face with those who need it. I don’t try to judge though, those who have been led to live a live of monasticism; mainly because my focus is on God and my spiritual walk with Him, and not on judging if others are walking the path that God wants them to walk... who am I to determine how they have been called? That’s for the individual to choose by listening to His heart during prayer, as well as his spiritual conscience.



We’re wasting time by checking to see if other Christians are living the way that We think that God wants them to live, and not focusing primarily upon our own walk with God and applying it to the world around us.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

We’re wasting time by checking to see if other Christians are living the way that We think that God wants them to live, and not focusing primarily upon our own walk with God and applying it to the world around us.
This is one of the best lines I've heard in a while! :clap:

[Protoevangel]

There is a Lutheran Monastery, called Saint Augustine's House.

http://www.staugustineshouse.org/index.html

[Matrona]

Sorry. I just tend to lump Catholic and Orthodox together since they're very similar (I will sometimes say things like only Catholics believe in transsubstantiation, although so do Orthodox.)
Sorry it took me so long to reply, but that isn't remotely true. Catholics and Protestants have much more in common with each other than either has with Orthodoxy. Most of those who say that Catholics and Orthodox are the same, or are nearly the same, often don't know much about Orthodoxy in the first place. :(

Also, Orthodox do NOT believe in transubstantiation.

[Archbishop 10-K]

Is it biblical? No.., bible says Elders, bishops, pastors, all that, but I dont see any monks and nuns...


The Bible also doesn't say anything about driving a car to church, but we do it anyway. Some pastors use Powerpoint in their sermons, but i don't see that in the Bible, either.

The point of monasticism is about going above and beyond what's required of us. I mean, it's optional anyway. I just think Protestant denominations should offer monasteries if their faithful choose to live as monks (I saw the Lutheran link, thank you.) I get kind of put off that some Protestants (not all, of course) seem to just want to do the bare minimum. It seems like a lazy spirituality. Does anyone else feel this?

[Archbishop 10-K]

Also, Orthodox do NOT believe in transubstantiation.

[/quote]
WHAT!? Okay, so what do they believe, then? Eucharist for Catholics and Protestants are pretty different. It'd hard for me to imagine that Orthodox can be more different.

And don't Orthodox also believe in apostolic succession? They have a hierarchy of deacons, priests, and bishops, right? What about the validity of ecumenical councils (until the Great Schism)? What about Scripture and Tradition? You guys are definitely not iconoclasts, either.

[Asaph]

And can you lock down pastor either? It is mentioned one time in the Bible with somewhat of an idefinite meaning. Because people use different terms doesn't really change what they are doing. The Bible doesn't talk about Christian schools, yet where would Paul be if he had not been raised a Jew? And the Bible doesn't talk about monks either, but that doesn't make them evil. Most of the NT simply addresses concerns of the churches, not listing every single doctrine.

Anyways, a lot of monks are just teachers who meet together and learn. If a monk doesn't spread his/her knowledge and help others with it, it can be bad, but otherwise it is actually a good idea. People need more knowledge of the Bible.
Bizzlebin, sorry to interupt man, but that has got to be the longest post I have ever seen you make!.....;)

You been doing the Mavis Beecon typing class or something?......lol

Grace and Peace bro,
Asaph

[Matrona]

WHAT!? Okay, so what do they believe, then? Eucharist for Catholics and Protestants are pretty different. It'd hard for me to imagine that Orthodox can be more different.
Orthodoxy is centered around something called apophatic theology, a prostration of the intellect before God. So we believe that the bread and wine we consecrate (we use leavened bread, never unleavened) become the true Body and Blood of Christ, and leave it at that. We don't try to explain how it happens. It just does. The priest communes each of us with a spoonful of what appears to be wine-soaked leavened bread (but is truly the Body and Blood of Christ).

And don't Orthodox also believe in apostolic succession?
Yup. But so do many Protestants.

They have a hierarchy of deacons, priests, and bishops, right? What about the validity of ecumenical councils (until the Great Schism)? What about Scripture and Tradition? You guys are definitely not iconoclasts, either.
We recognize the seven ecumenical councils and many local/regional councils. Our Church has a conciliar government; our universal head is Christ Himself with no single human counterpart or representative. And we do not believe ourselves to be a Church in half, but the Church founded by Christ in its entirety, undivided.

Since this is the Non-Denom forum, I won't press their hospitality any further than this post, but you are welcome to post a thread with questions in The Ancient Way if you wish. :wave:

[Carrye]

Orthodoxy is centered around something called apophatic theology, a prostration of the intellect before God. So we believe that the bread and wine we consecrate (we use leavened bread, never unleavened) become the true Body and Blood of Christ, and leave it at that. We don't try to explain how it happens. It just does. The priest communes each of us with a spoonful of what appears to be wine-soaked leavened bread (but is truly the Body and Blood of Christ).Which is a very beautiful tradition (and attitude) in my opinion. It is also (and Matrona, please don't slit my throat for this ;) ) very "Eastern." While Eastern rite Catholics believe in transubstantiation, their theology is much more of what Matrona explained - "it happens, we know it happens, Christ said it happens, it is a mystery, we'll leave it at that." Us Latin riters like to explain things and make distinctions.

:wave: Matrona. I hope I didn't overstep my boundaries in here either.

Edit: And I am quite pleased, and rather surprised to see the overall support for monasticism. I see it as a radical (in the best sense of the word) way to live out one's faith.

[Simon_Templar]

Matrona, I'm fairly familiar with Orthodox doctrine and Catholic doctrine, and being a protestant, I'm also pretty familiar with Protestant doctrine.

In both doctrine and practice, on the major points, the orthodox church and catholic church are closer to each other than either one is to classic protestantism.

on the issue of scripture and church authority
The protestants hold Sola Scriptura, only scripture is authoritative, and also they hold a restricted canon
Both Orthodoxy and Catholicism believe that the authority of scripture is derived from the church councils which established the canon and thus scripture is equal with the church tradition, or Holy Tradition. also they both holded more broad inclusive canons than the protestant church.

On salvation and transmission of grace
Protestants believe Sola Fide, by faith alone. Salvation comes only by faith in God and is not transmitted through any ceremony or ritual. (admittedly there are some protestants who very from this believing baptism to be necessary for salvation)

Both Orthodox and Catholic doctrines hold that the grace is transmitted through faith, but also through sacremental ritual.

On veneration of saints and relics,
Protestants almost universaly believe this to be idolatry

Both catholic and Orthodox churches hold that it is correct to reverence saints and relics and that grace can be transmitted through them.

Protestants believe that anyone can read and understand the bible for themselves

Both catholic and Orthodox tend to teach that only the church heirarchy can correctly interpet scripture.



Thus it is pretty easy to see why protestants often times consider catholic and orthodox to be very similar. In fact historicaly they were one church for quite along time.

Personaly, I'm closer to otrhodoxy (and catholicism) than most protestants. The reason being, while I believe that only Scripture is authoritative, and inspired, I give more credence both to apocryphal texts and to church tradition than do most protestants.
Also, although I believe Sola Fide is technicaly correct, I think that it is incorrectly taught by most of the protestant church. It is only by faith that we are saved, however, faith can never actually be alone.

[Cjwinnit]

Is there really such a thing as Protestant or Non-Denominational monks/nuns?

Anglicans and Orthodox are technically protestant by catholic standards.

[Matrona]

Matrona, I'm fairly familiar with Orthodox doctrine and Catholic doctrine, and being a protestant, I'm also pretty familiar with Protestant doctrine.

In both doctrine and practice, on the major points, the orthodox church and catholic church are closer to each other than either one is to classic protestantism.
And I am trying to phrase every sentence carefully to avoid debating in y'all's forum, but below you are wrong on every count. I can't correct you because that would probably be seen as debating, but Catholicism is further away from Orthodoxy than you realize. We have very different views on church government, the nature of the Trinity, sin and soteriology, sacramental mysteries, the Eucharist, the Virgin Mary, how to glorify ('canonize') saints, and several matters regarding the clergy and hierarchy. Those vary in intensity but our theories on iconography/religious art are so different they are like night and day.

on the issue of scripture and church authority
The protestants hold Sola Scriptura, only scripture is authoritative, and also they hold a restricted canon
Both Orthodoxy and Catholicism believe that the authority of scripture is derived from the church councils which established the canon and thus scripture is equal with the church tradition, or Holy Tradition. also they both holded more broad inclusive canons than the protestant church.
This is incorrect in regards to Orthodoxy.

On salvation and transmission of grace
Protestants believe Sola Fide, by faith alone. Salvation comes only by faith in God and is not transmitted through any ceremony or ritual. (admittedly there are some protestants who very from this believing baptism to be necessary for salvation)

Both Orthodox and Catholic doctrines hold that the grace is transmitted through faith, but also through sacremental ritual.
This is imprecise in regards to Orthodox doctrine.

On veneration of saints and relics,
Protestants almost universaly believe this to be idolatry
Actually, a lot of my Protestant friends love my icons. :) They like that icons are two-dimensional.

Protestants believe that anyone can read and understand the bible for themselves

Both catholic and Orthodox tend to teach that only the church heirarchy can correctly interpet scripture.
Again, this is incorrect in regards to Orthodox teaching.

Personaly, I'm closer to otrhodoxy (and catholicism) than most protestants. The reason being, while I believe that only Scripture is authoritative, and inspired, I give more credence both to apocryphal texts and to church tradition than do most protestants.
Also, although I believe Sola Fide is technicaly correct, I think that it is incorrectly taught by most of the protestant church. It is only by faith that we are saved, however, faith can never actually be alone.
This is true. When St Paul condemned "works salvation", he was condemning the belief that salvation could be won by legalistic acts of obedience, like, "God, I'm going to do this, but if I do it, you gotta give me salvation". St James, in his epistle, talks about another kind of works entirely. He's talking about works that you're called to do by the Holy Spirit dwelling within you and how those indicate a saving faith as opposed to the faith of the demons: "the demons also believe, and shudder". As Martin Luther is quoted as saying, "We are saved by faith alone but not by a faith that is alone."

[Rebirth In Flames]

This is going to turn into a debate.. anytime a Catholic comes into a Christian or Non-denomination forum, (or vice-versa), we always tend to bash heads against one another. So stick to your own forum; we're dealing with faith, of which we are both willing to die for - yet we see flaws in eachother but both of us think that we are the one with the "right" or "true" faith, thus it promotes arguments.

On a side note:
Interesting fact: the bible never mentions that we have to "go" to church. It says that all believers are the church.. yet the frase "go to church," "going to church" is not in the bible... that's something that the Catholic church made up within all of it's man-made dogma and heirarchy.

[Svt4Him]

Going to? Seems it has already.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Bizzlebin, sorry to interupt man, but that has got to be the longest post I have ever seen you make!.....;)

You been doing the Mavis Beecon typing class or something?......lol

Grace and Peace bro,
Asaph
No, I do not like to type. And I have actually made longer posts than this :)

[Dead Man Walking]

I think that it is wonderful. It would keep us from temptation, and we would live a lot happier lives. But that isn't what God created us for.

[Simon_Templar]

Matrona,

I hope no one else has a problem with our discussion, because I don't think its 'debate' in any negative sense. Its conversation :) a conversation with no give and take is a very boring conversation.

my knowledge of orthodoxy comes both from conversation with members of the orthodox church (which to this point has been primarily my asking questions about their doctrine, not debate about the correctness of their doctrine etC)
and also I've read several official articles written by orthodox patriarchs, published on official orthodox websites.

You said that I was incorrect in my statement that the orthodox church holds Holy Tradition on par with scripture and that they have a more inclusive canon than protestantism (as far as I've ever heard they have the most inclusive of any christian chruch). I would like to hear how this is incorrect? If I'm mistaken, I'd like to know in more detail how, and what the correct factual information is. :) (as a note, I'm being honest here, not patronizing).

On icons, I'm sure you will find alot of variation among protestants on all issues, especially from individual to individual. However, I think I could safely say that you wouldn't find any protestant church (by which I really mean non liturgical protestant church) that does not doctrinaly consider veneration of icons to be idolatry. Personaly, again, I am more open to this practice than most protestants, although I must admit it still does trouble me.


I should point out that my original intent, which perhaps I didn't communicate clearly, was to say that from a protestant perspective, orthodoxy and catholicism are closer to each other than either is to protestantism. I am certainly aware that there are sizable differences between orthodox and catholic doctrine, particularly the ones you mention, which several of were key in the historical split between the two churches.

On the transmission of grace, in this area I'm probably closer to Orthodoxy again. I know that doctrinaly Orthodoxy teaches that saving grace is transmitted by faith, what I was trying to express was that they place a far greater emphasis on sacremental ritual than most protestants do (since most non liturgical protestants have little or no regard for the sacrements as anything more than symbolism). Thus to many protestants the Orthodox idea of transmission of grace appears similar to catholicism when admittedly there are significant differences.
I for one, don't deny that the sacrements, baptism and communion in particular have real power far beyond mere symbolism.

my comments on church heirarchy interpeting scripture reflect the impression I had gotten from speaking with Orthodox members, a number of whom had told me things similar to that, including that their priest discouraged people from having discussions on doctrinal issues etc. Its very possible that my impression here was incorrect, and I'd be interested in hearing the offical orthodox teaching on this.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I think that it is wonderful. It would keep us from temptation, and we would live a lot happier lives. But that isn't what God created us for.
It does not keep us from temptation, it isn't always happier, and there is nothing in the Bible against this

[Chloe~]

And I found this: http://prayerfoundation.org/ :confused: :scratch: :)

[Archbishop 10-K]

Alright, so, BACK ON TOPIC............................


Anyone have anything else to say on monasticism?

[bravado]

I'm a very firm believer in it. However, I'm non-denominational and I very respectfully don't believe in a particular type of church... only worship.

[Chloe~]

And I found this: http://prayerfoundation.org/ :confused: :scratch: :)

100% born again monks? :o :clap:

[Matrona]

my knowledge of orthodoxy comes both from conversation with members of the orthodox church (which to this point has been primarily my asking questions about their doctrine, not debate about the correctness of their doctrine etC)
and also I've read several official articles written by orthodox patriarchs, published on official orthodox websites.
Please come over to The Ancient Way and ask why we think of Catholic/Protestant as two sides of the same coin and Orthodox as being different from both; I don't want to get in trouble for debating here and I don't want to disturb this forum anymore. :)

[Kristonia]

Hi, I'm new to this forum but I thought I'd jump in.

Getting back to the original question-- If there was a monastic order with solid Protestant theology and missions of outreach and hospitality, do you think there would be interest among born-again/evangelical Protestants?

It seems to me that there is something valuable about groups dedicated to prayer, fasting and outgoing service.

[cygnusx1]

This is an honest, non-debate question directed at non-Catholic Christians in general. I didn't know where to put it, so I put it here.

My question is: what do you think of monasticism? I mean, like monks and nuns. I've noticed that the Protestant Reformers dropped the idea of monasticism almost immediately, and today, only Catholics become monks or nuns. The Protestant countries shut down the monasteries and convents, although they were a major source of relief for the poor and needy. I was wondering: why?
I don't see a place for it.......it's a bit like hiding when there is a war on.

Mind you if it wasn't for the Monks I don't think there would be a beer industry! :D :yum:

[Carrye]

Prayer = Hiding?

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Monks do not hide. It is one of a great many common misconceptions. In fact, I think a few monks post here on CF...

[indeep]

I don't agree with monasticism...

While they may be dedicated and pious, and whatever else, what's the point...

[Carrye]

I don't agree with monasticism...

While they may be dedicated and pious, and whatever else, what's the point...
Take a second look at what you just wrote: "While they may be dedicated and pious, and whatever else, what's the point?"

Aren't dedication and piety what Christ calls us to? People live that call out in different ways. How can you disagree with a dedicated, pious Christian?

[Suffolk Sean]

Take a second look at what you just wrote: "While they may be dedicated and pious, and whatever else, what's the point?"

Aren't dedication and piety what Christ calls us to? People live that call out in different ways. How can you disagree with a dedicated, pious Christian?
I think you raise an excellent point here. I believe many disagree with Monasticism for something along these lines:

Matthew 5:14 You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

People may feel that monasticism is hiding yourself from the world, not being a witness. I personally feel that monasticism rendered great service through out the history of Europe.

There is also a distinct difference between monasticism and being a hermit.

[Rebirth In Flames]

If there was a prodestant monastic option, I'd sign up in a heart beat.

[Carrye]

I think you raise an excellent point here. I believe many disagree with Monasticism for something along these lines:

Matthew 5:14 You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

People may feel that monasticism is hiding yourself from the world, not being a witness. I personally feel that monasticism rendered great service through out the history of Europe.

There is also a distinct difference between monasticism and being a hermit.
I understand, and can honestly respect that, though I disagree with the understanding of monastacism that often leads a person to that argument.

I also, while I can see the opposing point, wonder how that scripture can be seen in light of monasticism. That verse exhorts us to be light before men that they may see our goodness and praise the Father because of it. Christians encourage other Christians, and we all know how valuable fellowship is. Monks encourage one another as well. And beyond that, their example encourages others - they have given up everything because of their faith in God - that to me, is an incredible witness.

Also, the scripture doesn't say specifically "be a light to the Gentiles". That's not to say that we shouldn't. But it's not talking only about unbelievers, which is what I think is sometimes implied when using this scripture to refute monasticism.

Another interesting point is that many places which are called "monasteries" are not properly so. Many people who are called religious brothers are not properly monks. The Dominicans, Franciscans, Jesuits go out and preach. And there are others too. Yet they still practice a form of monasticism. So I think the point that someone brought up about there being a difference between monasticism and hermitic life is important.

[Suffolk Sean]

I understand, and can honestly respect that, though I disagree with the understanding of monastacism that often leads a person to that argument.

I also, while I can see the opposing point, wonder how that scripture can be seen in light of monasticism. That verse exhorts us to be light before men that they may see our goodness and praise the Father because of it. Christians encourage other Christians, and we all know how valuable fellowship is. Monks encourage one another as well. And beyond that, their example encourages others - they have given up everything because of their faith in God - that to me, is an incredible witness.

Also, the scripture doesn't say specifically "be a light to the Gentiles". That's not to say that we shouldn't. But it's not talking only about unbelievers, which is what I think is sometimes implied when using this scripture to refute monasticism.

Another interesting point is that many places which are called "monasteries" are not properly so. Many people who are called religious brothers are not properly monks. The Dominicans, Franciscans, Jesuits go out and preach. And there are others too. Yet they still practice a form of monasticism. So I think the point that someone brought up about there being a difference between monasticism and hermitic life is important.
I used to rail against monasticism until I realized being a hermit was what I did not agree with. It is easy being a holy man on top of a mountain.

[cygnusx1]

Prayer = Hiding?I think all Christians pray , and we are commanded to pray at all times.....so why seclude yourself?
Better to get stuck in and pray through your God given situation.
If God wanted us to go live in monesteries He could easily have told us to.!

[indeep]

Take a second look at what you just wrote: "While they may be dedicated and pious, and whatever else, what's the point?"

Aren't dedication and piety what Christ calls us to? People live that call out in different ways. How can you disagree with a dedicated, pious Christian?
I suggest you look at what I wrote again, clearly you missed the point, I wasn't asking what is the point of being dedicated and pious, I was asking what the point of being a monk/nun!

Sheesh.

[Carrye]

I think all Christians pray , and we are commanded to pray at all times.....so why seclude yourself?
Better to get stuck in and pray through your God given situation.
If God wanted us to go live in monesteries He could easily have told us to.!
All Christians are told to pray, you and I agree. The question is what we're talking about when we say "seclude". Someone pointed out the difference between a monk and a hermit, and that is an important distinction. A monk is not all alone, but he lives in community. He is not locked in his room with his Bible and Liturgy of the Hours never to see the light of day again. That's the kind of stuff you see in movies.

And as far as if God wanted us to live in monasteries, He should have told us so, that's not a fair argument. Christ himself retreated to pray alone. St. Paul talks about celibacy for the Kingdom. Christ also said to pray in secret so that others wouldn't know you're praying. Does God will that all live in monasteries? No, for that would be to the detriment of humanity. Does he will that some do? Yes, I believe he does.

[Carrye]

I suggest you look at what I wrote again, clearly you missed the point, I wasn't asking what is the point of being dedicated and pious, I was asking what the point of being a monk/nun!

Sheesh.
There are many ways that a person can give his/her life for the glory of God and His Kingdom. Religious life is one way of doing that. Monks and nuns pray. They pray for you and I, they pray for peace, they pray for souls. They usually have some sort of work that is characteristic of their monastery as well. In earlier times, monks copied scripture. They preserved our most sacred texts.

What's the point now? They pray and they give witness by their holy lives. But we're all supposed to do that, you say. Yes, but none of us do that in the same way. I'm not saying that everyone should be a monk or a nun. We are all called to holiness, but how we live that out will vary from person to person.

[Moros]

today, only Catholics become monks or nuns.

This is false. For a little taste:
http://omna.nettinker.com/monline.htm
http://www.medialab.ntua.gr/athos/uk/general/top.htm

[Iollain]

I can see that monks and nuns have did a lot of good to the world, the only thing i can see in the bible, other than that which was already mentioned is:

Mark 7
5 The Pharisees and the scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the (6) tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with (7) impure hands?"
6 And He said to them, "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
'(8) THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
7
'(9) BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
8 "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the (10) tradition of men."
9 He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your (11) tradition.
10 "For Moses said, '(12) HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER'; and, '(13) HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH';
11 but you say, 'If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is (14) Corban (that is to say, [1] given to God),'
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the word of God by your (15) tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."

....verses 11 & 12 may have something to say about it, i don't know. Do nuns and monks have to leave their family for their position?

I remember reading a true story once about a nun that when her parents came to see here she was not allowed to see them in person, they had to talk through a fence.....probably uncommon.

[Carrye]

Do nuns and monks have to leave their family for their position?

I remember reading a true story once about a nun that when her parents came to see here she was not allowed to see them in person, they had to talk through a fence.....probably uncommon.
Monks and nuns leave their family and join a religious community. That doesn't mean that they're never allowed contact with them again. The monastery is not a prison.

[Iollain]

Aye.

[Archbishop 10-K]

I have some Bible verses for ya.


Matthew 19:29, And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. "

1 Timothy 5:9-12 would definitely suggest monasticism is a good idea. "No widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty, has been faithful to her husband, and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the saints, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds.
As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge."

Revelation 14:4 would suggest that a consecrated life to God (celibate) shows a very high dedication to Him, "These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb."

[Iollain]

I don't see anything wrong with the idea of living a monastic life, i don't know much about the RCC idea of it, but the idea is a good one.

[Anthony]

http://prayerfoundation.org/brief_history_protestant_monasticism.htm

This website show how at some levels there are Protestant Monks

[Carrye]

http://prayerfoundation.org/brief_history_protestant_monasticism.htm

This website show how at some levels there are Protestant Monks
This group seems more like a club than a monastery.

[Anthony]

This group seems more like a club than a monastery.

The group who hosts the website may be a club.

But they list out some history of Protestant Religous Orders.

[Carrye]

The group who hosts the website may be a club.

But they list out some history of Protestant Religous Orders.Yes, but the associations that they make are very loose. I can't imagine anyone else calling them religious orders. The site makes other suspicious claims as well, and so their credibility seems lacking.

[orthodoxos]

Monasticism is the white martyrdom. Blessed are those who are giving themselves for our Lord.