People Leaving the Church

[9-iron]

I just visited with a gentlemen who said he was done with church. I find this same event happening with greater frequency here recently. We all could point to things wrong with the church and leadership. However, does that mean we bail out first time we have an issue?

I myself have struggled the last year or two. The church isn't perfect, but I am concerned about where we are headed as the 'Body of Christ'. Anyone else have concerns over this issue?

[indeep]

It is something that I really struggled with for a long time. I left the church for a period of about 3-4 years, because I was tired of the BS that went on with the church leadership, and the lack of enthusiasm and strength of faith that was in the church. I saw that there were too many Beer Bellies of Christ in the Body. I went looking for a new church, but all I saw was more churches with more problems, or that had lots of theology that I didn't believe was very sound.

It probably sounds cliche, but I think that sooner or later, we'll need to have some real revival in the church, because people are growing dissatisfied with the church as it is. Something that really comes into my miind as I think about this is that we need to portray a Living church.

Maybe it's time for a second reformation.

[BarbB]

Pray for revival, 9-iron! :prayer:

I have found that I had to change churches 3 times in 3 years, just to keep to the Word. Whew!

I go to a community prayer group on Thursday - the whole purpose of the group is to pray for revival - what a goal! :clap:

[twistedsketch]

Look, if you can't find a good Sunday morning service to go to, at least get involved in a good Bible study.

[Iosias]

I just visited with a gentlemen who said he was done with church. I find this same event happening with greater frequency here recently. We all could point to things wrong with the church and leadership. However, does that mean we bail out first time we have an issue?

I myself have struggled the last year or two. The church isn't perfect, but I am concerned about where we are headed as the 'Body of Christ'. Anyone else have concerns over this issue?
As you hopefully know the Bible states that the churches will become ever more apostate in nature. I recommend you read some of John Nelson darby as he spent alot of his writing discussion the corruption of the present age. As for myself...unless they disgree with the sic fundamentals of the faith I will fellowship with them.

[New_Wineskin]

I just visited with a gentlemen who said he was done with church. I find this same event happening with greater frequency here recently. We all could point to things wrong with the church and leadership. However, does that mean we bail out first time we have an issue?

I myself have struggled the last year or two. The church isn't perfect, but I am concerned about where we are headed as the 'Body of Christ'. Anyone else have concerns over this issue?
I constantly hear those at the pulpit or in forums complain about those that do this or that . But , when a person has a problem with a group , I hear , "No church is perfect" . Ok , if no church is perfect , no church should have a problem with the people not being perfect , either . ( a little tongue in cheek , there ) .

A little more serious ... many of the groups have come about through some type of split . I don't see a problem with people leaving these groups over yet another problem . Christians are a part of the Church no matter where they are or what they are doing . Not being a part of a group for the time being ( or ever ) doesn't mean that they are not a part of the Church . Groups stress meetings far too much as far as I am concerned . There is too little fellowship and no new teachings but old teachings that go on and on . In fact , whenever a new teaching is presented , all of the groups converge to offeset this new teaching because we just can't have anything new .

So , no , I don't have a problem with this trend . I even encourage people to be one-on-one with the Lord for a while or take every other week off from the regular routine if they aren't that satisfied with the group with which they are a part .

[EdwardAnderson]

"I even encourage people to be one-on-one with the Lord" -New_Wineskin

I'm sure you'll agree that this is the relationship that is important. If you are truthful and faithful to God then problems within the community should have no baring on your relationship. A church to me is no different to a school, a shop or hall. It is another building where people gather together, in a church however they feel the need to worship God.

You shouldn't run away from people with different ideas to you

"I have found that I had to change churches 3 times in 3 years, just to keep to the Word. Whew!" -Newlamb

I'm sure God won't object if you tollerate bad teachings in the hope of enlightening people. If you simply just move away from these people then it is like taking away the only eye that can see. They will be blind unless people suffer to teach them otherwise.

Treat the church as a place to gather and not as a centre of your faith and it will matter little then that your ideas clash. Your faith alone comes from you; and the building, its candles, its priests and alters have and never will have an effect on your faith.

If you want christianity to move forward then remove all the nonsense that has arisen since it started, do away with catholics, protestants, orthodox, baptist and the rest. Unite as Christians with a love for God and Jesus and have wide reaching discussions about all your differences of opinions just don't let those differences split you as they do now.

Hmm bit of a rant there, sorry =)

[Iosias]

You shouldn't run away from people with different ideas to you
It depends what these "different ideas" are. If my church started denying any of the Christian fundamentals then I am out of there!

[indeep]

To summarise it simply, there is often to much of Man in church, and not enough God... Traditions are one thing, but... I mean, come on! :P

[favored_one]

I have found that I am very "turned off" by church at this point in my walk with Christ. I attend a very large church in the Detroit, Michigan area. I am praying to God to help me because I do not feel God's presence at this church. It seems that the focus of this church is the building fund and performance! I do not feel that there is proper focus on bible study to better the individual and the Christian family. It seems that the studies we have only use scripture as a means to manipulate people for money and to make the pastor almost the dictator sort. Also church growth is a major point. I know I am ranting but pray for me because I feel very jaded about attending. I would rather stay home and read scripture. :sigh:

[MLynn]

For myself, I am trying to work within the system and improve my church environment by actively serving. However, I'm getting tired of the religiosity and churchianity - I just want Jesus and the Word. I'm still praying as to what I should do (while I'm still serving).

[New_Wineskin]

"I even encourage people to be one-on-one with the Lord" -New_Wineskin

I'm sure you'll agree that this is the relationship that is important. If you are truthful and faithful to God then problems within the community should have no baring on your relationship. A church to me is no different to a school, a shop or hall. It is another building where people gather together, in a church however they feel the need to worship God.

You shouldn't run away from people with different ideas to you


If *I* ran away from different ideas , I wouldn't be here . ;)

I agree with you that *if* the relationship with the Lord is foremost , what is going on wouldn't have a baring . But , there are many who consider that "going to church" is *needed* for the relationship which is the opposite of what you are saying . The sermons in many groups are aimed at effecting the personal relationship with the Lord .

Since you see no difference between a group's building and a shop , there should be no reason for insisting that one go to one .

I also understand that people consider that one needs to go to these meetings for worship . That would be the last reason that I would have for doing so since I consider that worship is personal and my best worship is when I am with Him alone . However , I understand the different reasons why people go to these meetings . :)

[New_Wineskin]

I have found that I am very "turned off" by church at this point in my walk with Christ. I attend a very large church in the Detroit, Michigan area. I am praying to God to help me because I do not feel God's presence at this church. It seems that the focus of this church is the building fund and performance! I do not feel that there is proper focus on bible study to better the individual and the Christian family. It seems that the studies we have only use scripture as a means to manipulate people for money and to make the pastor almost the dictator sort. Also church growth is a major point. I know I am ranting but pray for me because I feel very jaded about attending. I would rather stay home and read scripture. :sigh:
This is a growing trend and many are getting together as home groups as friendly gettogethers to stay away from those that wish to control . In that way , people can have their meetings that they wish but not all of the overhead . The feelings that you have mentioned are a part of many groups and many people have decided to stay home and find out what the Lord wants them to do next . Surely , none would have a problem with seeking the Lord and His council before continuing . ;)

[BInC]

I believe, contrary to the current trend I guess, that attending church services is a neccessary part of christianity. I agree that a personal realationship comes first. But the bible says that "when two or three gather in my name, I will be there." Of course the holy spirit is with you all the time, but this passage clearly shows that God likes it when people come together in his name. Also, worship is important to do by youself and with others. Joining your voices together to praise God is a wonderful and powerful thing. The main reason for going to shurch is christian fellowship. It gives you a time to hang out with other christians, and as I mentioned earlier God is with you then too. It is a time to "re-charge" your faith for the coming week. Also, it is important to hear the sermon as well. We will all hear sermons someitmes that we disagree with, but unless it goes against kone of your fundamental veiws then it is no reason to leave. You need to hear the word of God given to you by a pastor mainly because, on average, these guys know what they are talking about. Theses are people who have taken classes and listened to seminars and are also ususally some of the strongest in the faith. You have to admit it, with a good pastor you will learn more than reading it by yourself. Staying home and reading the bible and worshiping God is a great thing to do, and we all should do it. But it doesn't need to conflict with your church services. There are 7 days in the week, each with 24 equally great hours. But the one our on Sunday morning should be dedicated to your shurch service, and you have plenty left to worship in the way that you feel is appropriate. The only reason I can see for switching churches is if it goes agaisnt your fundamental views, or the management is so bad that it detracts form your faith. Pray about it, and God will show you a good church to go to. But please, we have enough trouble getting non-christians to come to church. We can't have christians leaving too.

[New_Wineskin]

Hey , BinC !! :) Before I start , I wish to make sure that you understand that I am not attempting to quarrel with you . I am only expressing my pov .


The main reason for going to shurch is christian fellowship. It gives you a time to hang out with other christians, and as I mentioned earlier God is with you then too.
I haven't seen any group that provides this type of fellowship during meetings . There is usually singing , lecture , and a couple of other things that only include a handful of people saying anything . The only "fellowiship" that I have seen in most groups is among those that get to the meetings before the official start and those that do not leave right after the official end . If this is the only time of the week that people are seeing their main friends , I don't see that as fellowshp or friendship from my pov .


It is a time to "re-charge" your faith for the coming week. Also, it is important to hear the sermon as well.
I have heard many a people who have complained about others who were using the meetings as recharge points in the week because they should be all charged up *for * the meeting . I am not saying that I agree with it but am pointing out that there are those out there that hold an opposite pov from yours on the idea of recharging . "Important to hear the sermon " ? May I ask you how many new concepts that you have heard in the last 50 sermons ? That is rhetorical . I hadn't heard a single new concept the last 10 years that I was involved in a type of group of which you are speaking . In fact , looking at the forums for 5 years with many different povs , I have noticed several new ( to me ) ideas but they are less 1 in 1000 threads . Most of the threads in forums are along the same lines . Different aspects but can be answered in the same way as the main idea that they are from .



The only reason I can see for switching churches is if it goes agaisnt your fundamental views, or the management is so bad that it detracts form your faith. Pray about it, and God will show you a good church to go to. But please, we have enough trouble getting non-christians to come to church. We can't have christians leaving too.
The Lord will lead me where He wills . At least , you will accept that . I don't see how any group that is following the Lord would be concerned with the number of people at their meetings . He places people where He desires .

[happyinhisgrace]

I just visited with a gentlemen who said he was done with church. I find this same event happening with greater frequency here recently. We all could point to things wrong with the church and leadership. However, does that mean we bail out first time we have an issue?

I myself have struggled the last year or two. The church isn't perfect, but I am concerned about where we are headed as the 'Body of Christ'. Anyone else have concerns over this issue?No, I have not really been concerned about this because of what I have seen, churches are growing like wildfire. Maybe this is just the case where I live, I don't know.

[muffler dragon]

Well, 9, I have debated long enough on whether I wanted to get involved in this thread (for reasons obvious to you and some others).

New Wineskin and I are very much on the same wavelength regarding this particular situation. However, I have taken it one step further. Without condemnation or revocation of personal value, I had left the 'organized' church 3 years ago this September. That was mostly due to a differing in Scriptural interpretation. However, as I am growing in knowledge of the truth that is a foundation to the 'christian' church now, I become even more disturbed.

I posted the following statement elsewhere once and I'll show it again, because it will give clarity to people who want to see where I am coming from:

I am presently reading a book where statements by Origen, Chrysotom, Ignatius and Luther were presented. The anti-semitical statements by these 'pillars' of the faith were repulsive. Tacking on top of this situation the edict(s) by Constantine to remove anything Jewish from his state religion has left me even more agasp. And the king who makes all others look even weaker is Marcion. While Marcion was labeled a heretic, his teachings are still alive and well. I run into them on a daily basis here in the forums. Anyway... I am a Messianic Gentile believer in G-d (HaShem) and His Messiah Y'shua. I am studying the Word in greater depth, and I don't think a 'christian' organized church is going to have the propensity to help me. I still love all my brothers and sisters who believe differently than me, but I have to take this path. I have given up my will to G-d and will follow His lead only.

That's the skinny on the situation.
Shalom,

m.d.

[EdwardAnderson]

I don't understand this idea at all, I'm sorry. I have absolute faith in God and this doesn't change with time or anything else. Do people really need to recharge themselves or what would happen exactly? It just sounds so mechanical.

[happyinhisgrace]

I don't understand this idea at all, I'm sorry. I have absolute faith in God and this doesn't change with time or anything else. Do people really need to recharge themselves or what would happen exactly? It just sounds so mechanical.Edward, maybe one of your spiritual gifts is unwavering faith. I am that way to, I never doubt God, I don't question Jesus, I dont' even view it as a possibility that He is not really there or that He is not my Lord and King. I don't understand how anyone could loose their "fire" for God or get "bored" or "dismayed" with God or the Bible. It is totally incomprehencable to me that anyone who has come to Christ would ever even question His truth or His Holy Word after that point. However, I do know people who do question even after accepting the Lord and my first reaction is to immidiatly think "they aren't really saved or they wouldn't even wonder about it". I am not God though and I don't really know these peoples hearts so I should not even make a judgement on that. It is something that the Holy Spirit has been working on with me. I just can't help but think that some people are just blessed with unquestioning faith, to serve God's purpose. Heaven knows there are many other "spiritual gifts" that I have not been blessed with that others have. We are all different members of the same body of Christ, He uses us all in different ways for His perfect purpose.

[Maccie]

If you can get it in the USA, try reading Alan Jamieson's "A churchless faith". Its brilliant, very challenging, and may help those who are struggling with the faith as expressed in their evangelical churches.

Maccie

[New_Wineskin]

If you can get it in the USA, try reading Alan Jamieson's "A churchless faith". Its brilliant, very challenging, and may help those who are struggling with the faith as expressed in their evangelical churches.

Maccie Could you express some of the high points that you enjoyed from that writing ?

[DanielRB]

I think like all relationships in our modern society, the relationship between a Church member and his or her local church has suffered. Our society is more prosperous, mobile, and more confronted with different points of view than ever before. Choosing or leaving a church--like choosing or leaving a spouse--can be done very rapidly, with little or no tangible consequences.

I myself have been part of several different Churches. The first time I quit a Church it was because I couldn't respect the Church leadership on an important matter of morality. The second time I left a Church was because I lost my faith in Christ (or I thought I had). Now that I have come back to the Lord, I find myself involved in a Church that both my wife and I are dissatisfied with--both in doctrine and practice.

I really don't like my church hopping. I want to plug into a Church, be a real part of it--not just on Sunday mornings. But with so many churches to chose from, it is difficult...and if you get burned several times, you're likely to give up on the church and attempt the "lone ranger" thing...which also fits with our modern society.

I don't have a great solution. However, my family still will struggle to be part of some imperfect church in our own imperfect way.

In Christ,

Daniel

[Maccie]

It would be hard to describe the "high points" of this book. It all made a lot of sense to me, and helped me in my thinking.

However, I will quote from the Foreward to the book, which is written by James W. Fowler, who is the author of "Stages of Faith" and professor at Emory University, Atlanta, USA:

"This book addresses a set of challenges that face more and more persons of faith, and their churches, in the twenty-first century. Its author knows the terrain he describes from personal experience, professional responsibility and academic research. Alan Jamieson, pastor and scholar, uses personal interviews, hiw work with groups and his research to help us understand how people may outgrow the patterns of faith offered in their churches. He studies how members who are drawn to the fellowship of evangelical and Pentecostal churches may find that for their faith to grow, they have to experience struggle and doubt, and in some cases, form or find new communities of faith."

"A churchless faith" by Alan Jamieson, Published by SPCK is available from Amazon UK (and presumably from Amazon in the US)

Maccie

[lyna422]

I just visited with a gentlemen who said he was done with church. I find this same event happening with greater frequency here recently. We all could point to things wrong with the church and leadership. However, does that mean we bail out first time we have an issue?

I myself have struggled the last year or two. The church isn't perfect, but I am concerned about where we are headed as the 'Body of Christ'. Anyone else have concerns over this issue?
Hi! What we have to realize is that everyone is different, people come to the church to get help, and when they get hurt instead they want to go which i understand, if they don't know jesus how will they know to give church another shot. The church is suppose to be different.If we are to be christians then we have to line up with what the word says and love and treat people as Jesus treats us. people go through so much in the world, when they come to church they want relief and when it is not found there, their hearts are broken. If we don't line up so many people will not enter into the kingdom. Remember we are the only Jesus that the world sees.

[lyna422]

I just visited with a gentlemen who said he was done with church. I find this same event happening with greater frequency here recently. We all could point to things wrong with the church and leadership. However, does that mean we bail out first time we have an issue?

I myself have struggled the last year or two. The church isn't perfect, but I am concerned about where we are headed as the 'Body of Christ'. Anyone else have concerns over this issue?
Hi! What we have to realize is that everyone is different, people come to the church to get help, and when they get hurt instead they want to go which i understand, if they
HGydon't know jesus how will they know to give church another shot. The church is suppose to be different.If we are to be christians then we have to line up with what the word says and love and treat people as Jesus treats us. people go through so much in the world, when they come to church they want relief and when it is not found there, their hearts are broken. If we don't line up so many people will not enter into the kingdom. Remember we are the only Jesus that the world sees.

[MLynn]

I am presently reading a book where statements by Origen, Chrysotom, Ignatius and Luther were presented. The anti-semitical statements by these 'pillars' of the faith were repulsive. Tacking on top of this situation the edict(s) by Constantine to remove anything Jewish from his state religion has left me even more agasp. And the king who makes all others look even weaker is Marcion. While Marcion was labeled a heretic, his teachings are still alive and well. I run into them on a daily basis here in the forums. Anyway... I am a Messianic Gentile believer in G-d (HaShem) and His Messiah Y'shua. I am studying the Word in greater depth, and I don't think a 'christian' organized church is going to have the propensity to help me. I still love all my brothers and sisters who believe differently than me, but I have to take this path. I have given up my will to G-d and will follow His lead only.
That's the skinny on the situation.
Shalom,
m.d.
Hi, Muffler Dragon - I appreciate your post! I've been a Christian for a long time and have always thought of Jews as G-d's chosen people and that they have a special place in His "heart." I don't understand anti-semitism at all and I do think more Christians need to study His Word. It's hard to stay within the "organized" church when practices differ from the way the first century believers exercised their faith.
:wave:

[PaladinGirl]

Edward, maybe one of your spiritual gifts is unwavering faith. I am that way to, I never doubt God, I don't question Jesus, I dont' even view it as a possibility that He is not really there or that He is not my Lord and King. I don't understand how anyone could loose their "fire" for God or get "bored" or "dismayed" with God or the Bible. It is totally incomprehencable to me that anyone who has come to Christ would ever even question His truth or His Holy Word after that point. However, I do know people who do question even after accepting the Lord and my first reaction is to immidiatly think "they aren't really saved or they wouldn't even wonder about it". I am not God though and I don't really know these peoples hearts so I should not even make a judgement on that. It is something that the Holy Spirit has been working on with me. I just can't help but think that some people are just blessed with unquestioning faith, to serve God's purpose. Heaven knows there are many other "spiritual gifts" that I have not been blessed with that others have. We are all different members of the same body of Christ, He uses us all in different ways for His perfect purpose.
Hi there happyinhisgrace. I am one of those people who do have doubts. I most definitely don't have unwavering faith. I do believe that God exists though and I do believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross to save humanity from it's sins. That I have no doubt of. The things I doubt are much smaller things. I know that I am saved though and I praise God for that! The Bible says that even faith as small as a mustard seed is enough. I believe I have more faith than that but I definitely don't have unwavering faith like you and some others do.

[muffler dragon]

Hi, Muffler Dragon - I appreciate your post! I've been a Christian for a long time and have always thought of Jews as G-d's chosen people and that they have a special place in His "heart." I don't understand anti-semitism at all and I do think more Christians need to study His Word. It's hard to stay within the "organized" church when practices differ from the way the first century believers exercised their faith.
:wave:
I'm glad you've found some substance to it.

m.d.

[Crispie]

Expect it, many seeds are planted on the path, on rockey places, and in thorns.