What bishop prayed at the Democratic Convention?

[vanshan]

Does anyone know who the bishop was who prayed at the Democratic convention?

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Bishop Vashti McKenzie of Baltimore, MD, African Methodist Episcopal Church

[vanshan]

I should have clarified my question. Who was the canonical Orthodox bishop who prayer at the Democratic Convention. I saw a video clip Sunday and recognized the name, but now I have forgotten who it was. I think he was part of the Greek Archdiocese.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

The name I posted above was the only one I could find that had anything to do with the DNC. Maybe the media didn't make note of it?

[Rilian]

It must be through the Stephanopoulos connection, whoever it is. I couldn't find anything on it. The only thing I could find was about a priest (http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=48410) opening with a prayer.

[Inge87]

I don't know about any Orthodox, but I know Kerry's priest from the Paulist Center was supposed to lead a prayer there.

[vanshan]

I saw it on PBS' Religion and Ethics program which is on every Sunday. I will look on their website.

Yes, it was Archbishop Demetrios. His picture is on the site.

[Rilian]

It was Demetrios, and I'm guessing it is the Stephanopoulos connection.

[Oblio]

The Stephanopoulis Connection

Sounds like a movie produced by Onion Dome Pictures :D

[Oblio]

I hope he was praying for them to repent from their pro-choice platform !

[Michael the Iconographer]

The Stephanopoulis Connection

Sounds like a movie produced by Onion Dome Pictures :D

Fr. Vasily Chimes in: "Is Outrage!" Is it Stephanopoulis Movie in 19th C. Russia! I think no!

[OrthodoxTexan]

I'd like to see a text of the prayer if anyone has one.

[Matrona]

I hope he was praying for them to repent from their pro-choice platform !
You mean their pro-child-murder platform? Indeed!

[Rilian]

I'd like to see a text of the prayer if anyone has one.

Please Lord, don't let anyone know I'm here.

[ExOrienteLux]

Fr. Vasily Chimes in: "Is Outrage!" Is it Stephanopoulis Movie in 19th C. Russia! I think no!
But it could being movie about evils of filthy Sergianist new-calendar schismatics, though not in 19th C. Russia. In 19th C. Russia, it could being book about wrongs of raskolniki or other such peoples. :D

[Michael the Iconographer]

Perhaps it could be 17th C Russia and the evils of Ivan the Terrible or 18th C Russian movie about how the evil heretic Peter the Great wanted westernize Russia and make the Orthodox church more like the German Lutheran Church but I would really prefer a movie about 13th C Russia and the marvells of the great Iconographer St. Andrei Rublev. (OK, I admit that I studied a bit too much Russian history in College).

[Reader Nilus]

Please Lord, don't let anyone know I'm here.I am one Orthodox am glad he was there, if Orthodox Bishops show up at the Republican convention they can pray for the brethren in Iraq whose churches are being bombed now, or the Palestianians who are being driven from their homelands, or for a host of other ills that Bush has a hand in. Remember it was the Republicans that legalized abortion.
Jeff the Finn

[ExOrienteLux]

Maybe he prayed for the Orthodox who were bombed in Serbia under the last President? Or he can show up at the Republican convention and pray for those same Serbs who are having their churches destroyed and being driven from their homes while the West does nothing?

Sorry. Still a little (okay, a LOT) bitter about that.

His sinful and unworthy servant,
Josh.

[Matrona]

Remember it was the Republicans that legalized abortion.
And the Democrats continue to justify child-murder, bombing Orthodox churches in Kosovo, and there are plenty of Democrats who support purging Arab Muslims and Christians alike from the Holy Land--it's not just evangelical Protestant republicans, you know!!

[Rilian]

Jeff, sorry, I was actually just being silly. I don't see substantive between the two parties on a number of issues, and disagree with both on a host of others.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Uh, the last I checked, neither president Bush NOR our troops are bombing any churches. The muslim radicals are doing that completely of their own volition. I'm really tired of people justifying every evil they (Muslims) do by blaming either republicans, democrats, or evangelical protestants. EVERYONE makes their own choices in life. These people choose to hate and murder. It wouldn't matter who or what party is in office in this country. This cr*p has been going on over there (middle east) for a thousand years. Yes, I wish both parties would get of their yachts or horses and do something about the bloodshed in Serbia.

PS: The republicanS made abortion legal??? Wasn't it just one supreme court justice?

[ExOrienteLux]

I never said either Party is bombing Serbia now. But, they're not doing anything to try to stop the bloodshed, either. That's what gets my goat.

But I don't feel like getting into politics, so I think I'll shut up about this issue for now.

[Reader Nilus]

Uh, the last I checked, neither president Bush NOR our troops are bombing any churches. The muslim radicals are doing that completely of their own volition. I'm really tired of people justifying every evil they (Muslims) do by blaming either republicans, democrats, or evangelical protestants. EVERYONE makes their own choices in life. These people choose to hate and murder. It wouldn't matter who or what party is in office in this country. This cr*p has been going on over there (middle east) for a thousand years. Yes, I wish both parties would get of their yachts or horses and do something about the bloodshed in Serbia.

PS: The republicanS made abortion legal??? Wasn't it just one supreme court justice?These are the justices that voted to legalize abortion. There were 5 Republican appointees and 2 Democrat appointees that voted for it. 2 justices did not agree one democrat and one republican.

Blackmun Nixon appointee ( R )
Burger Nixon appointee ( R )
Douglas Roosevelt appointee ( D )
Brennan Eisenhower appointee ( R )
Stewart Eisenhower appointee ( R )
Powell Nixon appointee ( R )
Marshall Kennedy appointee ( D )
Jeff the Finn

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

These are the justices that voted to legalize abortion. There were 5 Republican appointees and 2 Democrat appointees that voted for it. 2 justices did not agree one democrat and one republican.

Blackmun Nixon appointee ( R )
Burger Nixon appointee ( R )
Douglas Roosevelt appointee ( D )
Brennan Eisenhower appointee ( R )
Stewart Eisenhower appointee ( R )
Powell Nixon appointee ( R )
Marshall Kennedy appointee ( D )
Jeff the Finn
Well, thanks for the history lesson. I notice that 5 republicans voted to legalize it. There are several million republicans in this country. It's not the republican's fault that those justices had an error in judgement. Who legalized it in the first place seems like kind of a moot point anyway. We need to deal with the present.

[MariaRegina]

Isn't Eisenhower the same President who sent thousands of Russian soldiers located in Germany at the end of WWII back to Russia to their certain deaths? From what I studied in history, they were packed in cattle cars by the American forces with no food, water or blankets and thousands died in route.

He's no fan of mine. Neither do I consider him a good "Republican" - same applies to Tricky Dick, who was considered to be a Democrat in Republican clothing.

Let us pray for their souls.

[Orthodox Andrew]

Uh, the last I checked, neither president Bush NOR our troops are bombing any churches. The muslim radicals are doing that completely of their own volition. I'm really tired of people justifying every evil they (Muslims) do by blaming either republicans, democrats, or evangelical protestants. EVERYONE makes their own choices in life. These people choose to hate and murder. It wouldn't matter who or what party is in office in this country. This cr*p has been going on over there (middle east) for a thousand years. Yes, I wish both parties would get of their yachts or horses and do something about the bloodshed in Serbia.

PS: The republicanS made abortion legal??? Wasn't it just one supreme court justice?
The American troops have no respect for their Mosques. So just like some people build a hate for all Muslims for the actions of a few, some Muslims build a hate for all Christians for the actions of few.

So if Bush and the rest of the extremists didn't give the Muslims such of bad taste for all Christians, these Churches would have not been bombed.

[Reader Nilus]

It is true Nixon and IKE would not be welcome by the republicans today, as the party of 30 years ago does not exist anymore. Goldwater himself would not be welcome by what passes for republican today. Once upon a time the republicans were fiscal conservatives, not anymore judging by what Bush has done in the last 3 years. Once upon a time republicans did not want to hassle Americans, not anymore.
The point is it was the Supreme Court, and as long as that stands the president or congress can do nothing about it. They can appoint judges, but as IKE observed that once on the bench they have a mind of their own. To have abortion as a litmus test of a politician for either congress or president is not bright at all, because they can do zippo about abortion. Just think for a bit about the Court, if you want to get rid of Roe-v-Wade you have to have "liberal justices" because "conservative justices" do not overturn prior supreme court rulings. To ask a potential justice to the supreme court if they would overturn Roe-v-Wade, is to ask about something, if they answered would have to exclude themselves from if it entered the court, because they have already stated their opinion! So how are you going to pick justices that will rule what you want in Roe-v-Wade, and not go off somewhere else go against something near and dear? It is a gamble no matter what and that is why abortion is a republican red herring, because they have had the presidency and congress for the last 3 years and have done zippo about abortion. Why, because they can not do anything.
Jeff the Finn

[Rilian]

The American troops have no respect for their Mosques. So just like some people build a hate for all Muslims for the actions of a few, some Muslims build a hate for all Christians for the actions of few.

So if Bush and the rest of the extremists didn't give the Muslims such of bad taste for all Christians, these Churches would have not been bombed.

They have no respect for Mosques, don't you think that might not be just a wee bit rhetorical?

The problem is the situation is a good deal more complicated and of longer scope than what the current U.S. administration is doing. The fate of the Christian minorities has been steadily worsening since the early 20th century when the Ottoman Empire collapsed. That was at a time when the U.S. had no political involvement or interest in the Middle East beyond protecting the few Christian missionaries that operated there (they were key in raising awareness of the Armenian genocide for instance).

What we’ve seen since the 40's has been a dramatic increase in the plight of native Middle Eastern Christians. The establishment of the state of Israel has displaced many Christians and Muslims in the Holy Land. America’s unflinching military and monetary support for Israel has in large part fueled modern militant Islam. That is why in the 70’s for instance you began to see Coptic churches being burned and Copts killed by groups like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, which later morphed into Islamic Jihad. Movements like this have met up with other purist Islamic movements such as the Wahabbis that make up the core of Bin Laden’s followers. They see the world in two camps; that of the Crusader and the Jew and that of the followers of Islam (at least their version of it anyway). The Christians of the Middle East are essentially friendless and are often the scapegoats for what is occurring around them. The West won’t act to protect them (look at what’s been going on in Darfur for instance), and they are increasingly surrounded by a hostile and militant form of Islam.

They are between a rock and a hard place, and I wouldn’t fool yourself into thinking their plight will improve much depending on who is the current U.S. president.

[Reader Nilus]

The Assyrian Christians before Bush invaded Iraq warned their condition would become much worse with Saddam gone. Saddam was not a religious fanatic but the replacement most likely will be.
Jeff the Finn

[Oblio]

They have no respect for Mosques, don't you think that might not be just a wee bit rhetorical?


I'll have to agree with Rilian. If they had no respect, they would have bulldozed one each time a US soldier was killed by a roadside IED.

[Orthodox Andrew]

They have no respect for Mosques, don't you think that might not be just a wee bit rhetorical?

The problem is the situation is a good deal more complicated and of longer scope than what the current U.S. administration is doing. The fate of the Christian minorities has been steadily worsening since the early 20th century when the Ottoman Empire collapsed. That was at a time when the U.S. had no political involvement or interest in the Middle East beyond protecting the few Christian missionaries that operated there (they were key in raising awareness of the Armenian genocide for instance).

What we’ve seen since the 40's has been a dramatic increase in the plight of native Middle Eastern Christians. The establishment of the state of Israel has displaced many Christians and Muslims in the Holy Land. America’s unflinching military and monetary support for Israel has in large part fueled modern militant Islam. That is why in the 70’s for instance you began to see Coptic churches being burned and Copts killed by groups like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, which later morphed into Islamic Jihad. Movements like this have met up with other purist Islamic movements such as the Wahabbis that make up the core of Bin Laden’s followers. They see the world in two camps; that of the Crusader and the Jew and that of the followers of Islam (at least their version of it anyway). The Christians of the Middle East are essentially friendless and are often the scapegoats for what is occurring around them. The West won’t act to protect them (look at what’s been going on in Darfur for instance), and they are increasingly surrounded by a hostile and militant form of Islam.

They are between a rock and a hard place, and I wouldn’t fool yourself into thinking their plight will improve much depending on who is the current U.S. president.
As soon as America dropped the first bomb in Afghanistan, Churches all over the Islamic world came under attack like they had not seen in a long time.

Coptics didn't so much come under attack because some Muslims became militarized because of a Jewish state. It was because the Jewish state was supported by a certain Christian country, known as America.

[Orthodox Andrew]

I'll have to agree with Rilian. If they had no respect, they would have bulldozed one each time a US soldier was killed by a roadside IED.
And lose the support of every Iraqi? That would be a pretty deadly strategy.

[Oblio]

And lose the support of every Iraqi? That would be a pretty deadly strategy.


I'm not saying that is a good strategy, or a moral one, I am just pointing out that it is not true that they had no respect by pointing out what a total lack of respect would look like.

[Orthodox Andrew]

I'm not saying that is a good strategy, or a moral one, I am just pointing out that it is not true that they had no respect by pointing out what a total lack of respect would look like.Well, I guess we could say Stalin didn't have no respect for Orthodoxy, because he left some Churches standing?

[MariaRegina]

Such exaggerations take our minds away from God.

Let's just pray that all may be saved.

[Rilian]

As soon as America dropped the first bomb in Afghanistan, Churches all over the Islamic world came under attack like they had not seen in a long time.

Are you sure, what are you basing that on?

Coptics didn't so much come under attack because some Muslims became militarized because of a Jewish state. It was because the Jewish state was supported by a certain Christian country, known as America.

I'm not clear on what the significance is of your distinction. The Copts have fallen victim to the rise of militant Islam in Egypt. Militant Islam has arisen in Egypt and a number of other places for many reasons, one of which is American and Western support for Israel, but there are many others which predate that. Overall, they are now unwitting victims of a conflict with which they have no part.

[Orthodox Andrew]

Are you sure, what are you basing that on?




I am quite sure. I vividly recall the talk on the news about how the attacks on Christian were greatly rising, due to Christianity being associated with the USA. I recall the reports were from CNN and the BBC.




I'm not clear on what the significance is of your distinction. The Copts have fallen victim to the rise of militant Islam in Egypt. Militant Islam has arisen in Egypt and a number of other places for many reasons, one of which is American and Western support for Israel, but there are many others which predate that. Overall, they are now unwitting victims of a conflict with which they have no part.

Side not* The Copts even faced persecution under the Byzantine Empire.


Think about the greatest Islamic calls to arms in the 20th century, and why they came about? Even the one in Egypt came about because of a pro American leader, that the American government was manipulating for Israel. Don't forget, Israel is nothing without America.


Now, I agree that the Copts have had a bad wrap overall. My point is that there are many crimes directed to them today because of the USA's policies.

[Rilian]

Think about the greatest Islamic calls to arms in the 20th century, and why they came about? Even the one in Egypt came about because of a pro American leader, that the American government was manipulating for Israel. Don't forget, Israel is nothing without America.

Now, I agree that the Copts have had a bad wrap overall. My point is that there are many crimes directed to them today because of the USA's policies.

I'm no fan of our Middle East policies, and believe me I'm well aware of the massive amount of direct aid we ship to Israel with no strings attached. Year after year they are our biggest foreign recipients, it will be $2.6 billion this year, 2.2 of which is military aid.

The only thing I'm saying is there's more to the story. Anti Christian violence in the Middle East goes back further, think of the Armenian pogroms for instance or the anti Greek riots in Turkey in the 50's and 60's. What people like Bin Laden talk about goes back even further than that. They talk about the expulsion of the Muslims from Spain in the middle ages and the fall of the caliphates at the end of the 19th century. Ultimately they espouse a pure Islam that predates the intervening effects of Itjihad and they see the modern day problems as a direct result of the corruption of Islam through this type of interpretation. That's why they bypass mainstream institutions like Al-Azhar and open schools like the Madrassas.

Our support of Israel brings this all to a head, but don't underestimate the importance that European imperialism played in making what happened possible. It was the Balfour agreement of Great Britain for instance that put Israel on the map, and their inability to handle the Suez crisis that put America at the forefront of Western power in the Middle East. There's lots of fingers in the pie, and while the Europeans have been criticizing us, they have proven largely ineffectual at stopping the violence and cultural destruction that has taken place in Kosovo under the watch of KFOR.

[Orthodox Andrew]

I'm no fan of our Middle East policies, and believe me I'm well aware of the massive amount of direct aid we ship to Israel with no strings attached. Year after year they are our biggest foreign recipients, it will be $2.6 billion this year, 2.2 of which is military aid.

The only thing I'm saying is there's more to the story. Anti Christian violence in the Middle East goes back further, think of the Armenian pogroms for instance or the anti Greek riots in Turkey in the 50's and 60's. What people like Bin Laden talk about goes back even further than that. They talk about the expulsion of the Muslims from Spain in the middle ages and the fall of the caliphates at the end of the 19th century. Ultimately they espouse a pure Islam that predates the intervening effects of Itjihad and they see the modern day problems as a direct result of the corruption of Islam through this type of interpretation. That's why they bypass mainstream institutions like Al-Azhar and open schools like the Madrassas.

Our support of Israel brings this all to a head, but don't underestimate the importance that European imperialism played in making what happened possible. It was the Balfour agreement of Great Britain for instance that put Israel on the map, and their inability to handle the Suez crisis that put America at the forefront of Western power in the Middle East. There's lots of fingers in the pie, and while the Europeans have been criticizing us, they have proven largely ineffectual at stopping the violence and cultural destruction that has taken place in Kosovo under the watch of KFOR.

I guessed we agreed all along than.:)

[katherine2001]

Before we keep calling the Democrats pro child-murder, we may want to remember that war and bombs do the same thing. Since we have no bombs that have sensors that can pick out pregnant women and children and avoid them, I'm sure that many pregnant women and pre-born and post-born children. Neither candidate is pro-life totally. Bush doesn't support abortion, but he has no problem with war or capital punishment. He has no problem bombing our enemies, which then kills pregnant women and children, both pre-born and post-born. Some choice we have. This is why I probably will not vote in the Presidential race. As far as I'm concerned, neither one of them comes out as being totally pro-life or pro-children. It seems to me that both candidates are supporting murder of children, just by different methods. As the "war on terrorism" spreads, I'm sure this issue will come up again many times.

GUIDO/MOUSE IN 2004! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/greymooncrest/Blessings.gif

[katherine2001]

Also, regarding the "Stephanoplis Connection", his father is a Greek Orthodox priest and his sister is a nun in the Holy Land.

[katherine2001]

GDE, yes, the Moslems do have a choice. So do we. We consider the people killed by bombs "collateral damage"--do you think God considers them as such? As Christians, we also have choices. When something is done to us, we can chose to retaliate and just escalate the violence, or we can try to do as Christ and Paul told us to do and not to return evil for evil. Because, what does returning evil for evil do? It just escalates and more people become victims on both sides. It just starts an endless cycle of violence. The New Testament gives us a new standard. We need to find ways short of war to handle things--war should be an absolutely last resort, when absolutely all other methods have failed.

Moslems are made in the image and likeness of God too. He may not like their religion, but His solution isn't to kill them. His solution is the same as it is with us. It is to love us and use that love to woo us to repentence. Doesn't killing them not allow God the time He needs to bring them to repentence? Aren't we playing God?

Moslems will answer to God for their choices, and we will answer to Him for ours. And since we call ourselves Christians, then He may hold us to a higher standard. We have Christ--we know what the standard is--Christ Himself.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

GDE, yes, the Moslems do have a choice. So do we. We consider the people killed by bombs "collateral damage"--do you think God considers them as such?

Who considers people killed by bombs "collateral damage"? I don't, and I don't know anyone else who does, either. I'm not sure who you're talking about when you say "we." I hope you're not trying to speak for our whole country.


When something is done to us, we can chose to retaliate and just escalate the violence, or we can try to do as Christ and Paul told us to do and not to return evil for evil. Because, what does returning evil for evil do?
Hmmm, I'm not aware that the Orthodox Church is anti-war or anti-military. This depends on how you define evil. If our country had never retaliated from any threats or attacks, we would not be a country right now. We would probably all be speaking German and living as Nazis. This country would've been destroyed at several points in history had we not used military force.

Moslems are made in the image and likeness of God too. He may not like their religion, but His solution isn't to kill them. His solution is the same as it is with us. It is to love us and use that love to woo us to repentence. Doesn't killing them not allow God the time He needs to bring them to repentence? Aren't we playing God?
Who said God wants us to kill Moslems? We are not at war with Moslems, anyway. We are at war with terrorists. Granted, I hate this war and wish it could be over right now. But we're not over there to do ethnic cleansing or destroy a religion. Right or wrong, our troops are over there to protect a group of people who want freedom, something they've never had before.

Moslems will answer to God for their choices, and we will answer to Him for ours. And since we call ourselves Christians, then He may hold us to a higher standard. We have Christ--we know what the standard is--Christ Himself .

I agree 100%.

[OrthodoxTexan]

Found a copy of the benediction here (http://www.goarch.org/en/news/NewsDetail.asp?id=1167).


“Let us bow our heads to the Lord.

Heavenly King, Maker of all things and Father of all humanity, we bow our heads before you in deepest gratitude for the countless blessings which You bestow continually upon our great nation.

We thank You for the bounties of our land, for the stability of our society, and for the diversity of our American people. And above all, we thank You for the inestimable gift of freedom and for the glorious ideals of human dignity, equality, and justice for all, which have been inspired by Your grace.

This legacy of liberty, O Lord. Is ours today because of the sacrifice and service of the founders of our nation. Bless, O God, their memory with an everlasting blessing, and inspire us with an equal measure of dedication to the institutions and ideas of democracy.

Send Your mercies upon this Convention, and upon all the delegates who have been gathered here to carry out these noble ideals by selecting candidates for the highest offices of our land. Bestow upon your servants, Senator John Kerry and Senator John Edwards, strength from above and profound wisdom to bear well the awesome responsibilities of their candidacy. Grant them keen discernment and brotherly love, so that they may bring honor to our democratic institutions, in properly understanding and handling issues of vital importance for our society.

Enlighten your servants, so that they may confirm the precious value of liberty. May the work of these candidates and of this Convention advance our blessed American legacy far into the future, through works of social progress, deeds of righteousness, and acts of justice.

Establish our land in peace, O Lord. Protect the poor, nourish the hungry, strengthen the weak, vindicate the oppressed, support the youth, make firm our families, preserve and guard our armed forces who stand in harm’s way on behalf of us all, heal the wounds of war, and inspire all people with the ideals of human freedom and dignity, from sea to shining sea, and throughout the whole world.

And to You be the glory forever. Amen.”

I must say that I am very dissappointed. Very generic benediction. How many times do we Orthodox begin a prayer or a blessing without "In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit"? Not one mention of our Saviour by name is included, only "generic" Lords and Heavenly Fathers. Reminds me of the purposely generic invocation given at my graduation so as to avoid offending any non-Christians. Maybe I am off base here. Thoughts?

[MariaRegina]

Found a copy of the benediction here (http://www.goarch.org/en/news/NewsDetail.asp?id=1167).


Let us bow our heads to the Lord.

Heavenly King, Maker of all things and Father of all humanity, we bow our heads before you in deepest gratitude for the countless blessings which You bestow continually upon our great nation.

We thank You for the bounties of our land, for the stability of our society, and for the diversity of our American people. And above all, we thank You for the inestimable gift of freedom and for the glorious ideals of human dignity, equality, and justice for all, which have been inspired by Your grace.

This legacy of liberty, O Lord. Is ours today because of the sacrifice and service of the founders of our nation. Bless, O God, their memory with an everlasting blessing, and inspire us with an equal measure of dedication to the institutions and ideas of democracy.

Send Your mercies upon this Convention, and upon all the delegates who have been gathered here to carry out these noble ideals by selecting candidates for the highest offices of our land. Bestow upon your servants, Senator John Kerry and Senator John Edwards, strength from above and profound wisdom to bear well the awesome responsibilities of their candidacy. Grant them keen discernment and brotherly love, so that they may bring honor to our democratic institutions, in properly understanding and handling issues of vital importance for our society.

Enlighten your servants, so that they may confirm the precious value of liberty. May the work of these candidates and of this Convention advance our blessed American legacy far into the future, through works of social progress, deeds of righteousness, and acts of justice.

Establish our land in peace, O Lord. Protect the poor, nourish the hungry, strengthen the weak, vindicate the oppressed, support the youth, make firm our families, preserve and guard our armed forces who stand in harm’s way on behalf of us all, heal the wounds of war, and inspire all people with the ideals of human freedom and dignity, from sea to shining sea, and throughout the whole world.

And to You be the glory forever. Amen.

I must say that I am very dissappointed. Very generic benediction. How many times do we Orthodox begin a prayer or a blessing without "In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit"? Not one mention of our Saviour by name is included, only "generic" Lords and Heavenly Fathers. Reminds me of the purposely generic invocation given at my graduation so as to avoid offending any non-Christians. Maybe I am off base here. Thoughts?

Dear brother and sisters in Christ:

Before we pass judgment ...

I'm also troubled by this apparent false ecumenism which seems to be present in this prayer. Perhaps that was a condition of his praying there, but at what cost? By doing so, was he failing to preach Jesus Christ as the Eternal Word of God?

However, let us first give him the benefit of a doubt. Did he begin his prayer with the Sign of the Cross, which would have acknowledged the All-Holy Trinity?

Anyone see the videotape?

Lovingly yours in Christ our Risen God,
Elizabeth

[Matrona]

Father Alexander Schmemann, if you have found your rest in the arms of God, pray for Archbishop DEMETRIOS and ask that he be granted wisdom and courage in the face of those who deny our Holy God, the Holy Trinity, Three Persons in One Essence.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Found a copy of the benediction here (http://www.goarch.org/en/news/NewsDetail.asp?id=1167).




I must say that I am very dissappointed. Very generic benediction. How many times do we Orthodox begin a prayer or a blessing without "In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit"? Not one mention of our Saviour by name is included, only "generic" Lords and Heavenly Fathers. Reminds me of the purposely generic invocation given at my graduation so as to avoid offending any non-Christians. Maybe I am off base here. Thoughts?
I agree. If you hadn't told me he was an Orthodox priest, I wouldn't have known based on that prayer. I realize I'm a newbie to the faith, but this prayer doesn't read much like any other prayer I've seen. I definitely noticed that he never mentioned the Trinity.

[MariaRegina]

Heavenly King, Maker of all things and Father of all humanity...


Heavenly King is a phrase we use to refer to the Holy Spirit

Maker of all things is a phrase we use to refer to the Creative Word of God

Father of all humanity is a phrase referring to God the Father.


There you have it folks, a prayer to the Holy Trinity at the very beginning of his prayer.

Archbishop has been said to be very wise -- guess he out-foxed them all. :D

[Matrona]

Heavenly King, Maker of all things and Father of all humanity...


Heavenly King is a phrase we use to refer to the Holy Spirit

Maker of all things is a phrase we use to refer to the Creative Word of God

Father of all humanity is a phrase referring to God the Father.


There you have it folks, a prayer to the Holy Trinity at the very beginning of his prayer.

Archbishop has been said to be very wise -- guess he out-foxed them all. :D
Perhaps... but should we have to "fox" the All-Holy Consubstantial and Life-Creating Trinity past anyone?

We should be prepared to confess the Trinity even unto our deaths.

[MariaRegina]

Do you know how many people had to read and approve the Archbishop's benediction before he was allowed to give it?

Many other non-Orthodox pastors, priests, bishops and Cardinals have been known to say public prayers carefully deleting any reference to the Father, Son, and King so as not to offend the feminists. I know, I've heard those prayers. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/greymooncrest/Outrage.gif


At least Archbishop Demetrios had the courage to say Heavenly King and Father. :clap: :clap: :clap:

[OrthodoxTexan]

Do you know how many people had to read and approve the Archbishop's benediction before he was allowed to give it?IMO, if that's the case, then I would have rather my Archbishop declined the invitation to attend. We do not water down the faith waiting for the approval of politicans and publicists.

[MariaRegina]

Please realize, folks that we are judging an Archbishop who is trying to bring Orthodoxy to America .... how can he do this by remaining silent.

Also we are giving scandal to our newbies here.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us and save us.

[OrthodoxTexan]

I am not judging my Archbishop. Lord knows if there is anyone worthy of judgement it is only me. I simply wish that, as one of the major representatives of our faith in the US and in the position to be heard, he would have spoke with words that were strongly and undeniably Trinitarian.

[Rilian]

Here's the whole thing (http://www.goarch.org/en/news/NewsDetail.asp?id=1167). Most likely if he had used a strictly Trinitarian doxology he never would have made it to the podium. I'm not really sure what the right choice would be, as Ned Flanders would say, this is a dilly of a pickle.

[katherine2001]

Aria, thank you for your posts. +Archbishop DEMETRIOS did bring the Holy Trinity into his prayer. Sometimes, you attract more people with subtlety rather than hitting people over the head. Maybe more seeds will take root and grow from his prayer the way the prayed it than if he'd made it more "in your face". He has been a priest, bishop, and spiritual father for a long time. He may know much better than we do how to bring people to Christ and how to nourish the seeds.

I agree with Aria. Let's give +Archbishop DEMETRIOS the benefit of the doubt.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/geymooncrest/WomanPrayer.gif

[Matrona]

Please realize, folks that we are judging an Archbishop who is trying to bring Orthodoxy to America .... how can he do this by remaining silent.

Also we are giving scandal to our newbies here.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us and save us.And how much more scandal would it cause if we allowed our Faith to be watered down by an archbishop in order to please a room full of people, many of whom would probably spit on His Eminence, given the chance, since he represents such an 'antiquated' and 'sexist' religion? We should be pleased to expose them to the Truth of our Lord Jesus Christ, crucified and risen from the dead, at every possible opportunity.

I'm sorry, but I think His Eminence made a mistake. He could say anything he wanted to once he got up to the microphone. He didn't screw up as badly as he could have, I suppose, but he didn't exactly do the right thing, either.

I'm reminded of the story Bishop Tikhon (I think?) told about another Orthodox bishop, who was to give the benediction for the Texas state legislature (I think?) and beforehand was asked to not make any specific references to anything overtly Christian, so as to not offend. The bishop kindly replied by saying something to the effect of, "You will make the law, I will pray the prayer," and immediately opened up with "HOLY GOD, HOLY MIGHTY, HOLY IMMORTAL..."

[MariaRegina]

O Lord and Master of my life, a spirit of idleness, curiosity, ambition, and idle talk give me not [prostration]

But a spirit of chastity, humility, patience, and love, bestow upon me Thy servant. [prostration]

Yea, O Lord King, grant me to see mine own failings and not to condemn my brother; for blessed art Thou unto the ages of ages. Amen. [prostration]

Yea, O Lord King, grant me to see mine own failings and not to condemn my brother; for blessed art Thou unto the ages of ages. Amen. [prostration]

<Prayer Book, HTM, 2000 (9-10)

[MariaRegina]

Judge not, lest ye yourselves be judged.

[Oblio]

IMO, more was done for the Kingdom of God by the prayer delivered as written than if he had had it edited, been refused or if he changed at run-time. Dripping water erodes mountains, a running stream gets dammed and controlled. He was not peaching to the choir and he was not in a position to be a Confessor (even if they were Democrats :D j/k JtF ;) ). Sure, I would have liked a full tilt boogie Orthodox prayer but it never would have been broadcast, and you would never see another broadcast.

[Matrona]

IMO, more was done for the Kingdom of God by the prayer delivered as written than if he had had it edited, been refused or if he changed at run-time. Dripping water erodes mountains, a running stream gets dammed and controlled. He was not peaching to the choir and he was not in a position to be a Confessor (even if they were Democrats :D j/k JtF ;) ). Sure, I would have liked a full tilt boogie Orthodox prayer...
Under what circumstances are we not called to be confessors?

it never would have been broadcast, and you would never see another broadcast
Edited to add... Liberals do not control every media outlet in America. There is still Fox News. ;)

All you have to do is accuse the Democrats of suppressing diversity... archaic, sexist, hard-core fundie freaks are people, too. :)

[Oblio]

A Confessor is one who upon threat of and fullfilment of such threat endures torture and mutilation rather than renounce his or her faith in Christ. St. Maximos the Confessor is a good example who IIRC had his tongue cut out for his confessions. Standing before the DNC and having your prayer edited, cut to breaking news or worse is not what I would call being a Confessor. YMMV. IMO, you have to get in the door before you can give the message.

[Matrona]

You know, being that His Eminence is a Greek archbishop... he coulda just spat on them... "It's for luck!" ;)

[Oblio]

Liberals do not control every media outlet in America. There is still Fox News.


First we have to convert the Democrats, the real hard sell will be the Right Wing Fundagelicals :D

Seriously, I was talking about a broadcast of a Democratic convention, I should not have said simply broadcast

[Oblio]

You know, being that His Eminence is a Greek archbishop... he coulda just spat on them... "It's for luck!" ;)

LOL :D

[Matrona]

Standing before the DNC and having your prayer edited, cut to breaking news or worse is not what I would call being a Confessor.
Do you really think they would have cut to commercial on His Eminence just for invoking the Trinity? That sort of censorship would cause a huge scandal!

[Oblio]

No, I think there would have been Technical Difficulties. I seriously doubt that the whole prayer would have gotten out.

[Matrona]

O Lord and Master of my life, a spirit of idleness, curiosity, ambition, and idle talk give me not [prostration]

But a spirit of chastity, humility, patience, and love, bestow upon me Thy servant. [prostration]

Yea, O Lord King, grant me to see mine own failings and not to condemn my brother; for blessed art Thou unto the ages of ages. Amen. [prostration]

<Prayer Book, HTM, 2000 (9-10)
Wouldn't that have been a nice prayer for His Eminence to use?

[CyberSponge]

IMO, more was done for the Kingdom of God by the prayer delivered as written than if he had had it edited, been refused or if he changed at run-time. Dripping water erodes mountains, a running stream gets dammed and controlled. He was not peaching to the choir and he was not in a position to be a Confessor (even if they were Democrats :D j/k JtF ;) ). Sure, I would have liked a full tilt boogie Orthodox prayer but it never would have been broadcast, and you would never see another broadcast.

You make a good point about him possibly using a subtle technique. I also understand the concerns of those who are made very nervous about it b/c they fear that the "Greeks" are watering down the faith (not just the externals, but now the internals).

When we see a fundamentalist preacher give a talk at a Republican convention or say a prayer, that's the same as approving it. That means the preacher was invited and that the preacher accepted the invitation. In affect, he is "on their side," especially considering he won't criticize the republicans.

My concern is that by being there ABp. Demetrios is (possibly unintentionally) condoning what's going on. I actually thought his prayer was pretty good since it doesn't ask for the voters to vote for Kerry (unlike what a fundamentalist preacher would do for Bush at a pub convention), but prays that they have wisdom and will be basically good people.

I liked this part:

Establish our land in peace, O Lord. Protect the poor, nourish the hungry, strengthen the weak, vindicate the oppressed, support the youth, make firm our families, preserve and guard our armed forces who stand in harm’s way on behalf of us all, heal the wounds of war, and inspire all people with the ideals of human freedom and dignity, from sea to shining sea, and throughout the whole world.

Note his prayer about the war was very fair and balanced, and he even prays that people will be inspired with "the ideals of human freedom of dignity...throughout the whole world." That is something the world definitely needs, and we'd be more successful in Iraq should the Iraqis be more interested in freedom and dignity.

Still, even if his prayer was balanced, he himself was at the convention and gave a speech. That's a stamp of approval, to some extent. Some people have a problem with that. And "some people" includes me.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

I'm reminded of the story Bishop Tikhon (I think?) told about another Orthodox bishop, who was to give the benediction for the Texas state legislature (I think?) and beforehand was asked to not make any specific references to anything overtly Christian, so as to not offend. The bishop kindly replied by saying something to the effect of, "You will make the law, I will pray the prayer," and immediately opened up with "HOLY GOD, HOLY MIGHTY, HOLY IMMORTAL..."
I can't really say anything about the speech because I'm not in a position to judge ecumenism and such, but I love that little story.:)

[Oblio]

Still, even if his prayer was balanced, he himself was at the convention and gave a speech. That's a stamp of approval, to some extent. Some people have a problem with that. And "some people" includes me.


There is that part of the issue too, and FWIW I agree with you CS.

[MariaRegina]

There is that part of the issue too, and FWIW I agree with you CS.

If one soul was converted by the good Archbishop's prayer, then the angels in heaven are rejoicing.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

.

My concern is that by being there ABp. Demetrios is (possibly unintentionally) condoning what's going on. I actually thought his prayer was pretty good since it doesn't ask for the voters to vote for Kerry (unlike what a fundamentalist preacher would do for Bush at a pub convention), but prays that they have wisdom and will be basically good people.

.To be fair, I really don't think any preacher, even a fundagelical, would pray that people vote for X candidate. Prs. Bush is a big fan of Billy Graham, and I've never heard him stoop so low as to ask people to vote for him. Even though I no longer agree with all of Billy Graham's theology, I still think he is a good man with a good heart. I think most evangelical ministers are at least smart enough not to tell people specifically who to vote for.

[Rilian]

Clearly you haven't been watching CBN Duchess, which is probably good for your mental health.

[Oblio]

Mostly because they could lose their tax exempt status.

[MariaRegina]

Mostly because they could lose their tax exempt status.

Big Brother is Watching You.

I'm surprized that Archbishop Demetrios could pray the way he did as those militant feminists don't like "Father" "Son" and "King" - and they really hate the mention of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.

Let's face it - we don't have much religious freedom left in the USA.

[CyberSponge]

To be fair, I really don't think any preacher, even a fundagelical, would pray that people vote for X candidate. Prs. Bush is a big fan of Billy Graham, and I've never heard him stoop so low as to ask people to vote for him. Even though I no longer agree with all of Billy Graham's theology, I still think he is a good man with a good heart. I think most evangelical ministers are at least smart enough not to tell people specifically who to vote for.

true...if I said "might do" instead of "would do," that would be more accurate. Some are very brazen (e.g. Al Sharpton) and basically say who to vote for, but others might strongly hint. I still consider that telling who to vote for. (e.g. "Candidate X is evil and goes against everything that we stand for. Candidate Y is wonderful and great and not a big fat loser like X is. But I'll let you make up your own mind.")

Question: does a church or minister lose tax-exempt status if they tell people who to vote for, or conversely, say one or the other is "evil."?

[MariaRegina]

true...if I said "might do" instead of "would do," that would be more accurate. Some are very brazen (e.g. Al Sharpton) and basically say who to vote for, but others might strongly hint. I still consider that telling who to vote for. (e.g. "Candidate X is evil and goes against everything that we stand for. Candidate Y is wonderful and great and not a big fat loser like X is. But I'll let you make up your own mind.")

Question: does a church or minister lose tax-exempt status if they tell people who to vote for, or conversely, say one or the other is "evil."?

They can and they have lost status. A black minister is being persecuted because he quoted Romans which condemns the homosexual lifestyle.

[CyberSponge]

If one soul was converted by the good Archbishop's prayer, then the angels in heaven are rejoicing.

I think people are concerned at (what they consider) the cost of converting this hypothetical soul you speak of.

However, it is nice to have a man of God not screaming at the top of his lungs and spewing hatred like the other token "Reverends" they had up on stage.

[CyberSponge]

They can and they have lost status. A black minister is being persecuted because he quoted Romans which condemns the homosexual lifestyle.

that's terrible! Haven't things like that been happening a lot in Canada and Europe? I keep on hearing blurbs about it but it's like the laws actually forbid them from quoting certain scriptures.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Clearly you haven't been watching CBN Duchess, which is probably good for your mental health.
Hmmm, CBN......I don't remember for sure if I ever watched that one. Is that the one owned by Pat Robertson? I did, however, watch that fantastic TBN with the woman that wore 3 wigs and 5 lbs. of make-up and her husband with the loud silk ties. Great comedy............only it's not suppose to be comedy.;)

[Eusebios]

There is that part of the issue too, and FWIW I agree with you CS.
Does the presence of the EOC within the WCC add it's "stamp of approval" to everything they do? I don't think so. It seems to me that the good Archbishop seized the day and made the most out of a bad situation. he took the opportunity to be salt and light.
Just my 2 cents worth
In XP,
Eusebios.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/greymooncrest/OrthoPrayer.gif

[CyberSponge]

Does the presence of the EOC within the WCC add it's "stamp of approval" to everything they do? I don't think so. It seems to me that the good Archbishop seized the day and made the most out of a bad situation. he took the opportunity to be salt and light.
Just my 2 cents worth
In XP,
Eusebios.

EOC presence in the WCC is not analogous to an Orthodox Archbishop praying what he prayed at a political convention. In the former, it's an organizational decision involving multiple bishops in agreement, and at the WCC EOC delegates have made very strong statements that oppose the goals of most WCC members. In the latter, an individual Archbishop made strong statements, but not in opposition to any group. It's not just showing up, it's what you do when you show up. He could have showed up and said "These people's party platform is in opposition to our Church's teachings on these particular points." In that case, it wouldn't be a stamp of approval at all. What I REALLY, REALLY hope is that he'll give a similar prayer at the republican convention, since I think our commander-in-chief definitely needs our prayers (especially for wisdom in these trying times, and for our soldiers in harm's-way).

I do think that at least he did have good intentions and was trying to seize the moment for good. We just must be careful when mixing religion with politics (one is Holy, one is worldly, combine the 2 and BOOM!!!)

[The Prokeimenon!]

For what it's worth, some religious leaders DO tell people who to vote for. My mother gets a "voting guide" every year. So does my mother-in-law. Not the same guide, though.

LK

[The Prokeimenon!]

It's Moses this time...

In regards to the voting guides... As a Fundagelical, Republicanism was so tightly intertwined with Christianity that it was widely acknowleged that one was not saved if they were a Democrat. The Church lacked air-conditioning, so in the summer we were given little fans (a piece of posterboard on a stick) that said "vote Republican." Our Pastor went to city council meetings and told the members which zoning ordinances were of God. I'm not kidding. He was an active member of the Republican Party and used the pulpit with great frequency to tell us who specifically to vote for. When I left that Church, I heartily embraced the Democratic Party, because for me personally, Republicanism was synonymous with false Religion. It was an "overcorrection" if you will. Having calmed down a little, I think both parties stink.

I hate the stand that the Democratic party takes on abortion. But what about the Republican support of the death penalty? How can a party be Pro-Life if they support state-sponsered killing of any person?

Bush sent us to war, but I have no doubt that Kerrey (or is it Kerry... we have a Kerry/Kerrey from here in Nebraska and I forget which spelling is which) will keep us there. (I'm not making a pro/anti-war statement... I honestly don't know what to believe about it.) The economy will go up down regardless of who's President. Both parties will try to outlaw one form of killing, while advocating another.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm voting for my cat.

Moses

[Dust and Ashes]

The economy will go up down regardless of who's President. Both parties will try to outlaw one form of killing, while advocating another.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm voting for my cat.

Moses
I agree 100%. Now, the question I have is this. Just for my write in, is it Guido with 1 d or 2? ;)

[Dust and Ashes]

Being a very recent fundagelical, I was a staunch Republican although I abhorred the death penalty. However, after reading about President Bush's mockery of Karla Faye Tucker's plea for clemency I lost much of the respect I had for him.

[Reader Nilus]

From a Christian view point, the state has its power from death. Remember the temptations in the wilderness the kingdoms of the world are satan's to give as they are principalities and powers who are creatures of the fall. Look at the Gospel reading of the raising of Lazurus and see that it was Our Lord raising Lazarus from the dead that sent shock waves through the powers that be. Not only did they need to kill Our Lord, but Lazarus as well. John 12:10-11 So the chief priests planned to kill Lazarus too, for on account of him many of the Jewish people from Jerusalem were going away and believing in Jesus.
I wish I still had it, an open letter that William Stringfellow wrote to Jimmy Carter back in 1976. Stringfellow basically said it did not matter who won, because the power behind the state is death itself, and it has nothing to do with the goodness or evil of an individual office holder.
It is the society itself, the values that is preached in the media and everything that smacks of nilhilism that causes abortion. If we want to stop abortion, then we have to look at the cause of it, because it is just a symptom of a more major sickness. Just a thought to think about, when meeting someone the first time, the question that will come up is what do you do? Now that is to ask what do you have, if you got a job a good job and so forth, not who are you what do you stand for, but what do you have. If we reduce life to having, then we are all dead.
As Orthodox Christians we need to challenge the root of the problem with the proclaimation of the Gospel, that Our Lord defeated death once and for all. We need also not fear death, or poverty but take our bearings from the saints such as the fools for Christ.
Jeff the Finn

[Oblio]

YMSSRA before giving it to jeffthefinn :sigh:

[Matthias]

Jeff, that was awesome. :)