Sabbath Keepers.

[messianic5]

I am interested to know how many on here keep Shabbat? Also, how do you keep Shabbat? We keep Sabbath and I know how we do it but I am interested to know how others do this.
If there are any Jewish believers on here I would really like to hear from you as to how to do this properly.

[ChavaK]

I am not a Messianic, but I am interested in knowing how you interpret Torah
and keep Shabbas....

[messianic5]

I'm not really sure about interpreting Torah. I believe everything written in the first five books. I also believe everything written after that. I believe that Yeshua is the Messiah and that He was born of a virgin, led a sinless life, died on a cross for my sins as the only perfect sacrifice, that He is the son of God and the son of Man, that He was resurrected after being dead for three days and that He ascended to the right hand of the Father where He is right now awaiting the Father's word to come back and claim His bride.
I believe that there are prophecies throughout the Old Testament that prophesied His coming.
As to keeping Sabbath, I begin preparing Thursday night because it takes me longer to get things done. I bake two loaves of Challah and we have a Shabbat meal on Friday beginning at sundown. I light the two candles, one respresenting Creation and the other representing Redemption. My husband blesses our children and myself, he then blesses the cup and the bread, and we do the handwashing. We share in the meal, then when we are finished we ask grace over the food that we have eaten.
We then study the Word and rest the rest of the evening.
The next day we do very little. I usually have something prepared in the crockpot so that I don't have to cook, the dishes wait until sundown that evening and we rest. We also play music (I play keyboard and he plays guitar and bass) and we will play music and praise and worship that way.
We don't always do the ending of Shabbat because sometimes we are gone.
I can't really say that I am Messianic. I don't know what that is exactly.
I am a believer in Yeshua as my Lord and Savior, and I hunger after the things of God. I also hunger after the Jewish roots of my faith.
Thank you so much for posting back. I hope that I haven't offended you in any way.
I notice that you are an orthodox Jew. I would be interested in knowing how you keep Shabbat if you would be willing to share.

[ChavaK]

Thank you for your response.....I think a great deal of Messianics aren't really sure what a Messianic is either, LOL.....there seems to be a wide variety of opinions.

I was not offended by your post, just interested in what you believe.

Interesting that you you consider the candles to mean redemption and creation,
we traditionally view them as meaning "keep and remember"....

Also curious why many messianics follow Jewish traditions that were not around
in the time of Jesus? Why follow what modern day Jews do, rather than only
what was done in Jesus' time? I have asked many but never really gotten a
good answer.

On shabbas we abstain from all work, as defined by the Oral Law/ 39 melachos.
No driving, using electricity, writing, creative activities, cooking.....an extensive
list (oh, no music either :) ) It is a time set aside for rest, prayer and study. It is also a time for families to spend together, as during the week time seems so limited.

[messianic5]

Thank you very much. I didn't realize that these Jewish traditions weren't around during Jesus time. I have read where he went and taught on the Sabbath, but I guess I never really thought about the fact that it didn't mention what the families did when they met in their homes other than breaking bread together.
What are the meanings of the candles for you-keep and remember? Keep what and remember what? I am honestly curious. You are correct, too, that during the week time is very limited and Shabbat is a time for families to spend together.
I don't understand anything about the Oral Law. I was raised in a Protestant family and my husband and I started searching the Hebraic roots of our faith about ten years ago. You'd be surprised how many of our family got upset with us because we started keeping Shabbat.

[ChavaK]

Yes, I think most of the things messianics do today were not around in the
days of Jesus. Which is why I find it very strange that they follow modern
Jewish traditions.....

"Keep (or observe) and remember" come from the first word concerning shabbas
in the two versions of the giving of the ten commandments:


זָכוֹר אֶת-יוֹם הַשַּׁבָּת, לְקַדְּשׁוֹ. 7 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.


יא שָׁמוֹר אֶת-יוֹם הַשַּׁבָּת, לְקַדְּשׁוֹ, כַּאֲשֶׁר צִוְּךָ, יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ. 11 Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD thy God commanded thee.

The Oral Law/Talmud tells us how to follow the written Torah. Without it we would
not know what things such as tefillin, tzitzit, mezuzah are
that are mentioned in the written Torah but no directions given as to how observe
them. It also comprises civil law as well as religious law.

Your family probably figures you are now part of a cult.... :)

[messianic5]

I don't know that they necessarily thought we were part of a cult. My mother loved the Sabbath dinner when we had them over for it. She is gone now and I was just thinking of that the other day.
We actually started keeping Sabbath a couple months before finding a Messianic Synagogue to attend.
We no longer attend there but learned a great deal while we were there.
We learned about the tzizit and mezuzah but not the tefillin. Could you tell me what that is?
That is very interesting about the Oral Law/Talmud. I didn't realize that it consisted of civil as well as religious law.
Where did you find the Hebrew lettering that you wrote with?

[ContraMundum]

I am interested to know how many on here keep Shabbat? Also, how do you keep Shabbat? We keep Sabbath and I know how we do it but I am interested to know how others do this.
If there are any Jewish believers on here I would really like to hear from you as to how to do this properly.

As a Jewish believer I would say that I personally try to keep Shabbos as best I can, but according to the traditions handed down to me from my parents and theirs. However, I don't consider it important for Gentiles, as I personally believe that the Sabbath is one thing but Sabbath keeping is a sign from God to the Jews (I have posted my scriptural argument for this many times on this forum).

So, from my Messianic perspective, if a Gentile decides he needs to be a Sabbath keeper, he must realise that a) it doesn't make him a better Christian, b) He won't recieve the Holy Spirit by any outward works including the keeping of the Sabbath and c) it is a religious observance, which is done according to conscience as a personal choice, and not a law handed down by Yeshua and the Apostles for Gentile believers to observe under the pain of sin and punishment. The deeper moral obligation to set aside a day for the Lord can be done on any day of the week, and indeed, the Church has historically held worship services every single day of the year, including the seventh day of every week, for that purpose. The first day of the week was considered the best to remember the resurrection and the marking of a new beginning.

If one decides to try to keep the Sabbath, without Jewish tradition one is left to one's own devices as to "how" to do it. The bare-boned command of scripture teaches about cessation from work. That would be the obvious start. The rest would be up to the conscience of the person.

However, if one wishes to adapt Jewish tradition, they should know that Jewish tradition does not require (or allow) Gentiles to keep the Sabbath. The Apostles, being Jewish men discipled by the Messiah, kept and continued in this perspective when they gave their inspired decree against Sabbath-keeping and other portions of the Torah in Acts 15 and elsewhere. The church is wise to continue in this ancient understanding of the relationship between Jew and Gentile, who both have an equal and united approach to God but are to be disctinct peoples according to scripture.

I always recommend this article (http://www.tikkunministries.org/Articles/jack-whichlaw.htm) to help get a perspective on the relationship between Jewish and Gentile law-keeping which will definitely help explain my perspective.

Lastly, if you asked this question in the broader "Messianic Judaism" forum would get a huge myriad of replies, some quite legalistic, but in this sub-forum, you will generally get the perspective I have outlined.

[ContraMundum]

We learned about the tzizit and mezuzah but not the tefillin. Could you tell me what that is?

Tefillin are known in English as "phylacteries". Traditionally, Jewish men (and only Jewish men) wear them at certain times for prayer. Read the wiki about them here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tefillin).

Often you might see Jewish men carrying them in little bags during the week on their way to the synagogue (though never on Shabbos), but many of them leave them there along with their tallis because they always daven (pray) there and not at home. Learn more about that here (http://www.davening.net/).

I have heard that some more progressive or reformed Jewish groups allow and encourage their women to use tefillin (and also tallitot) but I have never seen it myself so can't be sure about the accuracy of that.

Personally, I don't think I could do without them. It is one of my "line in the sand" issues when it comes to church. I wouldn't even talk to a church body that forbade Jewish customs and traditions for Jewish members. (Most chruches are very happy to accomodate us of course, so it's not a problem.) I don't use tefillin at church (obviously, we have tons of our own Christian traditions and customs that are very, very spiritually fulfilling and intensely powerful) but I do use ("lay") them in private prayer at home, as I feel I should as a Jew. Just my Messianic perspective. :)

[ContraMundum]

Also curious why many messianics follow Jewish traditions that were not around
in the time of Jesus? Why follow what modern day Jews do, rather than only
what was done in Jesus' time? I have asked many but never really gotten a
good answer.

My answer: some of us "birthright" Messianics follow the traditions of the rabbis in full knowledge that these are later-than-Jesus traditions, and with the proviso that these traditions at no point contradict the clear, pure teaching of the New Testament. We keep them because we can, and we want to. :) (We also would say that many other cultures have useful customs and traditions that can be used to strengthen their relationship with God, and that if the same conditions are met they shold be free to use them as they see fit.)

[messianic5]

Thank you for all the information. We are going to go ahead keeping Shabbat. We get a great blessing from it and feel it is obedience to the Lord. I think it is in Leviticus that the feasts are called The Lord's Feasts. So we would be observing what He wants us to. I am very grateful for both of you helping me out with my questions.

[ChavaK]

My answer: some of us "birthright" Messianics follow the traditions of the rabbis in full knowledge that these are later-than-Jesus traditions, and with the proviso that these traditions at no point contradict the clear, pure teaching of the New Testament. We keep them because we can, and we want to. :) (We also would say that many other cultures have useful customs and traditions that can be used to strengthen their relationship with God, and that if the same conditions are met they shold be free to use them as they see fit.)

Oh, I understand why a Jew would follow them, but not a gentile.

I am not convinced that following traditions that are not
one's one strenghtens one's relationship to the Almighty.....

I guess it's something I will never understand... :)

[Shimshon]

Oh, I understand why a Jew would follow them, but not a gentile.

I am not convinced that following traditions that are not
one's one strenghtens one's relationship to the Almighty.....

I guess it's something I will never understand... :)
I agree. And isn't that amazing. In regards to gentiles keeping the law as Jews you are finding agreement with 'some of us "birthright" Jews', as contra put it. But on this issue you will usually find consternation with the gentiles. Just something to notice.

Bravo again contra, :amen: .

[ContraMundum]

I agree. And isn't that amazing. In regards to gentiles keeping the law as Jews you are finding agreement with 'some of us "birthright" Jews', as contra put it. But on this issue you will usually find consternation with the gentiles. Just something to notice.

Interesting point.

:thumbsup:

[Shimshon]

Thank you for all the information. We are going to go ahead keeping Shabbat. We get a great blessing from it and feel it is obedience to the Lord. I think it is in Leviticus that the feasts are called The Lord's Feasts. So we would be observing what He wants us to. I am very grateful for both of you helping me out with my questions.I very humbly suggest that you focus on who was being instructed to 'be obedient and observe" in your proof text of Leviticus. You will find throughout, over and over agian that "the Lord" was speaking specifically to "The House of Israel", and that to the exclusion of the gentiles around them. The commands were given to distinguish Israel 'from' the gentiles. They were not given 'to' the gentiles. It is Israel who is called to be obedient and observe all these things, least 'we', Israel be cast out into the gentiles, and exiled from the Land that the Lord gave eternally to the children of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.

In short, all exhortations to follow what is writen are directed not to all the world, or the gentiles, but specifically with Israel. The decendants of Abraham Issac and Jacob. The Lord wants Israel to follow his rules and regulations and be the blessings of the covenant. Through "Israel" will all the gentiles be blessed. The nations will know the Lord when Israel is set apart as holy, and the Lord dwells with them forever.

Ezekiel 37:28
The nations (Gentiles) will know that I am ADONAI, who sets Isra'el apart as holy, when my sanctuary is with them forever.'"

In context,
Ezekiel 37

21 Then say to them that Adonai ELOHIM says: 'I will take the people of Isra'el from among the nations where they have gone and gather them from every side and bring them back to their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Isra'el; and one king will be king for all of them. They will no longer be two nations, and they will never again be divided into two kingdoms.

26 I will make a covenant of peace with them (Israel), an everlasting covenant. I will give to them (Israel), increase their (Israel's) numbers, and set my sanctuary among them (Israel) forever.

27 My home will be with them (Israel) ; I will be their (Israel's) God, and they (Israel) will be my people.

28 The nations will know that I am ADONAI, who sets Isra'el apart as holy, when my sanctuary is with them (Israel) forever.'"

Israel is called to be holy to the covenant and through this all the gentiles know God. Gentiles were never called to "be Israel". That is replacement theology.

[messianic5]

I do not believe that we "are Israel". Not for one minute do I believe that we replace Israel. Through Christ, though, we are grafted in. I am sorry that you thought that we were trying to replace Israel.

[Shimshon]

Through Christ, though, we are grafted in.
Very true indeed. However, a grafted in branch retains it's genetic make up. It does not become like the other 'natural' branches.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3266/2441983506_78e3dfaea0.jpg?v=0

So even though you are grafted in, it does not mean your flowers, or fruit become like that of the natural branches. Ever here of a tompot plant? It is created by grafting together a tomato plant and a potato plant. It produces potato's AND tomato's. The tomato branches do not produce potatoes, nor do the potato branches produce tomatoes.

The fruit or flowers that define Israel are the things the Lord told us to do. He did not call gentiles to look like Jews. He called Israel to bless the nations. Your being grafted in 'by faith through Messiah' is part of that blessing.

http://www.microgear.net/gwinford/tompot.gif

Jew AND Gentile, ONE in Messiah, ONE in the olive tree. The branches do not become a mix of the other. Each has a place and a purpose, according to the will of God. To provide fruit (obedience and observances) as God wills.

[Shimshon]

I do not believe that we "are Israel". Not for one minute do I believe that we replace Israel. I am sorry that you thought that we were trying to replace Israel.Very truly, I am sorry too. But you stated you felt it was obedience to the Lord for you to observe the shabbat given to Israel. You state you would be doing what the Lord tells you by observing the feasts given to Israel in Leviticus. You seemed to me to be saying your flowers will now produce the fruit of Israel, even though your a gentile. In this way you apear, to me at least, to be saying that now since you are grafted into the tree of Israel, you will start producing the fruit that Israel produces.

Yet, Paul states let each one of us remain where we are called. If circumsized, do not remove the marks (observances), if uncircumsized, do not attempt to become circumsized. .....(paraphrase).

By this, can you try and understand where i'm coming from? And why I might think what you state as replacement theology? Even though wild, you think you will produce the fruit of a natural branch?

offered iIn Messiah's love
Shimshon

[messianic5]

I do understand, and no I do not think that we will produce the fruit of a natural branch.
No one could ever replace Israel.

[Eben Abram]

Shalom ALecheim

It is interesting that often in a discussion of Shabbos, there is keeping not making or observing not Experiencing.

The Shabbos Queen according to tradition is often welcomed, but as a Jew albeit a Messianic Jew, I invite the Lord of the Shabbat to attend to my table, to be welcome in my home, to be a part of my table..., and (grin) May I say:
He comes.


It is said that a day existed when no man labored but rested and then the Rabbinicism came with both Hellenistic and Philoim to create a means to provide a resistance from the already affluential "spirits" that influenced the home to not be towards the Holy One but dwell on the people.

For my house and my home, I choose the Fear, the Way and the Word of the Lord and as He has said He is the Lord, I have chosen to follow Him in His observance of that which is best for me, for he is my master and I but merely his follower.

In Shul, the Student would seek to see how the Master tied his shoes, or so the Tradition of the sages say, and in Chabad, it is said that if you only Observe the least you can do, you have kept shabbos, Did not Messiah Say, If you Love G-d and Love your neighboor you have fufilled the Law?

In such I sense that the greater direct the lesser and as such I follow the Will of Him who has set me here to enjoy all He has prepared for me, and one of those is a day I shall say is for a Sabbat I enjoy.

Do you?

Alecheim Shalom

Eben

[Man-ofGod]

As a Seventh Day Adventist, we keep the Sabbath, we believe it applies to all people for various scriptural reasons, both old testament and new. In addition, we believe the 10 commandments all together is the moral conduct that we are to follow forever for all of Gods creation.

Mark 2:27

"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath."

This verse is saying the Sabbath was made for man, not just for the Israelite.

In addition, the Sabbath was kept from the very first week of creation week. That, we believe is the meaning of:

Exodus 20: 8 - 11:

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Jesus also said
John 14:15

"If ye love me, keep my commandments."

Since Jesus is God incarnate, we know what God's commandments were. After all, he wrote them with his own finger on stone, so they must have been pretty important and significant. I can make a long post on this topic with all the scriptural evidence that supports this (but ill try to spare everyone the trouble). Just know that all of the 10 commandments still hold, and that includes the Sabbath, as the 7th day. It’s a special day set aside to commune with our creator. No other day of the week was blessed.



Genesis 2:3

"And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done."


Just my 2 cents.

[Man-ofGod]

As a Seventh Day Adventist, we keep the Sabbath, we believe it applies to all people for various scriptural reasons, both old testament and new. In addition, we believe the 10 commandments all together is the moral conduct that we are to follow forever for all of Gods creation.

Mark 2:27

"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath."

This verse is saying the Sabbath was made for man, not just for the Israelite.

In addition, the Sabbath was kept from the very first week of creation week. That, we believe is the meaning of:

Exodus 20: 8 - 11:

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Jesus also said
John 14:15

"If ye love me, keep my commandments."

Since Jesus is God incarnate, we know what God's commandments were. After all, he wrote them with his own finger on stone, so they must have been pretty important and significant. I can make a long post on this topic with all the scriptural evidence that supports this (but ill try to spare everyone the trouble). Just know that all of the 10 commandments still hold, and that includes the Sabbath, as the 7th day. It’s a special day set aside to commune with our creator. No other day of the week was blessed.



Genesis 2:3

"And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done."

[Tishri1]

I feel so old standing here agreeing with ALL these experiences of Shabbat ...I too started out with complete desire to observe it all and failed as the years wore on...Now I still have Shabbat set aside for going to synogogue and fellowship but all the details that were sooooo important to me for years have slipped away.....Could it be that since it wasnt handed down thru blood family it isnt in me to keep, or could it be that Shimshon is right its for the Jew alone to KEEP the Shabbat and for us Gentiles to enjoy it how ever we feel led.....Oh BTW Im 50% Jew but that didnt seem to make a difference in the "Keeping" part:D

I almost wish I could just hang out with blood born Jews and gleen this wonderful experience from them weekly, its alot easier than trying to create the experience among my Gentile friends...oh they love what ever we bring to them but it doesnt seem to have the same "glow" as when it comes from the one who was born into this and grew up a Shabbat Keeper...


Just trying to be honest with Y'all:groupray:

[ContraMundum]

Wow...amazing post Tish. :) Thank you.

[Tishri1]

maybe someday we can share Shabbat together bro....for me that would be an awesome time:):hug:

[ContraMundum]

maybe someday we can share Shabbat together bro....for me that would be an awesome time:):hug:


Yes- awesome idea indeed! :thumbsup: Imagine a great big MJ forum shabbos. :)

[Tishri1]

we almost did that once...we were gonna meet for Sukkot and about half of us were planning it even......someday it would be awesome:clap:

[ContraMundum]

we almost did that once...we were gonna meet for Sukkot and about half of us were planning it even......someday it would be awesome:clap:

It would be fun...and maybe one day God willing it will happen.

[Tishri1]

lol do you remember when we were gonna start a Messianic commune^_^? Wags was even gonna let us start in on her land:)

we had great fun planning it in here

[WailingWall]

Israel is called to be holy to the covenant and through this all the gentiles know God. Gentiles were never called to "be Israel". That is replacement theology.


The gentiles were never called to be Israel, but they are called to join them both in new testament and old. The Jews do not make up all that is called Israel. There is the remnant of the 10 scattered tribes. They will become one stick in the hand of the Lord.

[WailingWall]

The "others" are we.

MATTHEW 15 [24] But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the LOST SHEEP of the house of Israel.

That’s what Jesus said. He was not sent but unto…

JOHN 10 [14] I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. [15] As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. [16] And OTHER SHEEP I HAVE, WHICH ARE NOT OF THIS FOLD: THEM ALSO I MUST BRING, and THEY SHALL HEAR MY VOICE; and there shall be ONE FOLD, and ONE SHEPHERD.

Jesus also said there were “others” not of the fold of the house of Israel. Everyone seems to agree that these “others” are the gentiles. The gentiles who hear His voice?

ISAIAH 56 [1] Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for MY SALVATION IS NEAR to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. [2] Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. [3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. [4] For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; [5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. [6] Also THE SONS OF THE STRANGER, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one THAT KEEPETH THE SABBATH from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; [7] EVEN THEM WILL I BRING TO MY HOLY MOUNTAIN, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. [8] The Lord God which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, YET WILL I GATHER OTHERS TO HIM, beside those that are gathered unto him.

Jesus BRINGS THEM to His Holy Mountain. The 1000 yr period of rest. So, have “many” come in the name of Jesus and decieved many as the bible said would happen? I reckon so. You must be keeping the sabbath in order to be saved to the kingdom. According to scripture that is so. According to the sunday mornin pulpiteers that is not so. Are they the “many” the bible speaks about?

ISAIAH 66 [20] And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to MY HOLY MOUNTAIN Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord. [21] And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord. [22] For as the NEW HEAVENS AND THE NEW EARTH, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. [23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and FROM ONE SABBATH TO ANOTHER, SHALL ALL FLESH COME TO WORSHIP BEFORE ME, saith the Lord. [24] And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Seems that when we reach the kingdom we will be keeping Gods sabbath day. Question is….Is Jesus the same yesterday, today and forever or is your God a wishy washy God. You will keep my sabbath for 4 thousand years, the next 2 thousand years don’t bother, after that you will keep my sabbaths forever.

[RND]

Seems that when we reach the kingdom we will be keeping Gods sabbath day. Question is….Is Jesus the same yesterday, today and forever or is your God a wishy washy God. You will keep my sabbath for 4 thousand years, the next 2 thousand years don’t bother, after that you will keep my sabbaths forever.

:D

[WailingWall]

I very humbly suggest that you focus on who was being instructed to 'be obedient and observe" in your proof text of Leviticus. You will find throughout, over and over agian that "the Lord" was speaking specifically to "The House of Israel"

So Shimshon
What do you think of the "others"? Are they to be keeping Gods law, Gods sabbath day? Old testament scripture says it is to be so. What do you say?

[ContraMundum]

So Shimshon
What do you think of the "others"? Are they to be keeping Gods law, Gods sabbath day? Old testament scripture says it is to be so. What do you say?

Shimmy and myself, among others, have this perspective (http://www.tikkunministries.org/Articles/jack-whichlaw.htm) on the matter. We believe this understanding is keeping step with both ancient and modern Rabbinic Judaism, ancient Christianity and esp. the declaration of the Jerusalem Council and the NT.

[RND]

Shimmy and myself, among others, have this perspective (http://www.tikkunministries.org/Articles/jack-whichlaw.htm) on the matter. We believe this understanding is keeping step with both ancient and modern Rabbinic Judaism, ancient Christianity and esp. the declaration of the Jerusalem Council and the NT.

Too bad that isn't then general sense taught by the Torah. There can be little question that when a stranger sojourned with the nation of Israel they were to respect the entire law.

Some Messianics have view a little more in line with what Sh'aul actually taught.

"Christianity was founded upon, and maintains to this day, an erroneous view of what it calls "the Law." Because of this, false conclusions have been arrived at concerning the role of "the Law" in the life of a believer in the Messiah. This error has also caused errant theology regarding Israel, the Jews, and the Gentiles' relationship to God. The purpose of this document is to expose this error and help believers in Yeshua the Messiah, particularly Gentiles, find the correct application of "the Law" in their faith and lives."

Not Subject to the Law of God? (http://www.yashanet.com/library/underlaw.htm)

[SGM4HIM]

If a Gentile wants to observe Shabbat he can always play the Colossians 2:16 card :)

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holiday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

If he feels he's being obiedient that does not mean he wants to hijack or replace Israel.

If he feels he's required to keep it or it makes him a better Believer, then that's another subject, clearly covered by Acts 15 info.

If you are a wild olive branch, you still produce an olive (not a tomato) even if it is not identical. And it's pleasing to Hashem.

[RND]

Christ didn't die so we could eat pork!

[SGM4HIM]

You are right.

We could eat pork before he died.


Yes, I concur it must have been for a deeper purpose!

[RND]

You are right.

We could eat pork before he died.


Yes, I concur it must have been for a deeper purpose!

Is it any wonder why it is impossible for a Christian to attempt to convert a Jew?

[SGM4HIM]

They don't have to eat Pork to be believe in Yeshua nor convert to pork eating Christianity

btw, Most Jews are not impressed with Gentile attempting to be Torah Observant.

the Gospel doesn't always work on Gentiles either.

[ContraMundum]

Is it any wonder why it is impossible for a Christian to attempt to convert a Jew?

I am born and raised Jewish, and I think you're completely wrong and if an SDA tried to tell me that I should become a Christian because they as Gentiles were told to keep Shabbos I would have dismissed them as completely uneducated and half-baked. Jews have never, despite your claim in the post above, ever told Gentiles they needed to keep the full Law, nor did Jesus, nor did the Apostles. Acts 15 is as clear as bells. I have yet to meet a Jew raised in an Orthodox or even Reform setting who thinks that Gentiles are bound by the whole of the Law, so your tactic of conversion by association is a flop. True converts come to Jesus because He reveals Himself to them, not because an American denomination is trying to keep Shabbos.

Secondly, every time I meet a SDA I ask them how they come to know how to keep Shabbos, celebrate the Holy Days etc, since scripture is quite quiet on these matters. They never can answer, of course. The answer in depth can only be found in Rabbinic tradition, which SDAs reject. Not very well thought out.

[ContraMundum]

Too bad that isn't then general sense taught by the Torah. There can be little question that when a stranger sojourned with the nation of Israel they were to respect the entire law.

There's no evidence of that position that any Jew has ever held to, nor is there any decent argument that would draw such a conclusion. We've heard 'em all, too. It's an assertion of a tiny portion of modern-day American denominations. It's not Jewish to think that way.

Some Messianics have view a little more in line with what Sh'aul actually taught.

"Christianity was founded upon, and maintains to this day, an erroneous view of what it calls "the Law." Because of this, false conclusions have been arrived at concerning the role of "the Law" in the life of a believer in the Messiah. This error has also caused errant theology regarding Israel, the Jews, and the Gentiles' relationship to God. The purpose of this document is to expose this error and help believers in Yeshua the Messiah, particularly Gentiles, find the correct application of "the Law" in their faith and lives."

Not Subject to the Law of God? (http://www.yashanet.com/library/underlaw.htm)That article is complete rubbish. He knows nothing about Christianity. He is a master at twisting the words of her teachers though. Shame on him.

[RND]

I am born and raised Jewish, and I think you're completely wrong and if an SDA tried to tell me that I should become a Christian because they as Gentiles were told to keep Shabbos I would have dismissed them as completely uneducated and half-baked.

Well, I suppose that's why they're called opinions.

Jews have never, despite your claim in the post above, ever told Gentiles they needed to keep the full Law, nor did Jesus, nor did the Apostles.I would disagree. We establish the law through faith. I think that's a fairly common theme throughout the Torah, Tanakh and the NT.

Acts 15 is as clear as bells. Really? Then why did they insist that the new converts keep some of the Mosaic law? The council didn't mention murder, stealing, coveting et al. Did they give their approval of these things by not mentioning them?

I have yet to meet a Jew raised in an Orthodox or even Reform setting who thinks that Gentiles are bound by the whole of the Law, so your tactic of conversion by association is a flop.Really? What 'law' are gentiles bound by? Can they murder? Is Hitler off the hook? Steal? Other God's? Graven images? Covet? What pray tell are the gentiles bound by?

Just who was that new covenant given too?

True converts come to Jesus because He reveals Himself to them, not because an American denomination is trying to keep Shabbos.Yep, that's true. Once converted by Him however we walk in the newness of life and walked even as He walked.

Secondly, every time I meet a SDA I ask them how they come to know how to keep Shabbos, celebrate the Holy Days etc, since scripture is quite quiet on these matters. Well, I suppose one could refer to the Talmud and the Pharisees but these are the same that said one couldn't heal on the sabbath.

They never can answer, of course. The answer in depth can only be found in Rabbinic tradition, which SDAs reject.Jesus rejected the Rabbinic traditions of the Pharisees.

Mat 15:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=15&v=3&t=KJV#3) But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Mar 7:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mar&c=7&v=9&t=KJV#9) And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Not very well thought out.Your post? I agree.

That article is complete rubbish. He knows nothing about Christianity. He is a master at twisting the words of her teachers though. Shame on him.

Really? What part? Any examples you'd care to share?

[SGM4HIM]

Here's a link to a MJ rabbi that discusses Acts 15. He does not eat pork etc. It is well thought out and uses scripture to make his point.

http://derek4messiah.wordpress.com/2008/12/02/classic-reprint-acts-15/

Now, what's all this additional stuff about lawless Christians. No one has suggested that because they don't have to follow Mosaic law that they are Lawless.

"Yep, that's true. Once converted by Him however we walk in the newness of life and walked even as He walked."

What newness are you referring to?

No one can walk as he walked even if one wanted to. Why? No temple for starters. Many say that alone reduces the 613 to 200 something.

How do you reconcile the Book of Hebrews?

Please use scripture to support your position, it keeps people focused, and if it's not in the book..........

[RND]

Here's a link to a MJ rabbi that discusses Acts 15. He does not eat pork etc. It is well thought out and uses scripture to make his point.

http://derek4messiah.wordpress.com/2008/12/02/classic-reprint-acts-15/


Thanks for the link, I've read Derek before and I have some disagreements with him, as some of the other commentators to his blog have pointed out. He seems rather inconsistent frankly.

Now, what's all this additional stuff about lawless Christians. No one has suggested that because they don't have to follow Mosaic law that they are Lawless.

So what you'd be saying, essentially, is that everyone except Jews can be homosexuals or have sex with their father's wife? How about bestiality (sorry :blush:)? And before you say, "Well, those we're 're-stated' in the NT" let's keep in mind what Paul was 're-stating':

2Ti 3:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Ti&c=3&v=16&t=KJV#comm/16) All scripture given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

"All scripture" in my mind includes both the Torah and Tanakh and applies to both Israelites and gentiles. Also, keep in mind that the "new covenant" was only promised to the House of Israel and the House of Judah. Which house to you belong too? Jeremiah 31:31-34.

Jer 31:31 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jer&c=31&v=31&t=KJV#comm/31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a [I]new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

One other thing that is important to note. Strangers (non-Israelites, gentiles) were indeed required to observe the sabbath:

Exd 20:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Exd&c=20&v=8&t=KJV#comm/10) But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:

The Mosaic law was also to be observed by strangers as well. In fact, Israel had only "one law" that was to be observed by everyone:

Lev 24:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Lev&c=24&v=22&t=KJV#22) Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I [am] the LORD your God.

Num 15:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Num&c=15&v=16&t=KJV#16) One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.


"[I]Yep, that's true. Once converted by Him however we walk in the newness of life and walked even as He walked."

What newness are you referring to?

Rom 6:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=6&v=4&t=KJV#4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Rom 7:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=7&v=6&t=KJV#6) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter. (See the Sermon on the Mount for clarification. Matthew 5, 6 and 7).

No one can walk as he walked even if one wanted to. Why? No temple for starters. Many say that alone reduces the 613 to 200 something.

The 'temple' is no longer physical but spiritual. Remember what Jesus said?

Jhn 2:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=2&v=19&t=KJV#comm/19) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Jhn 2:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=2&v=19&t=KJV#comm/20) Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? Jhn 2:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=2&v=19&t=KJV#comm/21) But he spake of the temple of his body.

We are considered individual stones in a "new" temple.

1Pe 2:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Pe&c=2&v=5&t=KJV#5) Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

The temple is the body, home of the Holy Spirit. Jesus lives in that "new" body.

2Cr 4:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Cr&c=4&v=10&t=KJV#10) Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

1Cr 6:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Cr&c=6&v=19&t=KJV#19) What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

How do you reconcile the Book of Hebrews?

Paul explains to the Hebrews of Rome what was once 'physical' has now been made 'spiritual.'

Please use scripture to support your position, it keeps people focused, and if it's not in the book..........

Sure, no problem.

[ContraMundum]

I would disagree. We establish the law through faith. I think that's a fairly common theme throughout the Torah, Tanakh and the NT.

That comment obviously doesn't apply to Jews- so I wonder why you're trying to argue that point?

Really? Then why did they insist that the new converts keep some of the Mosaic law? The council didn't mention murder, stealing, coveting et al. Did they give their approval of these things by not mentioning them?

Really? What 'law' are gentiles bound by? Can they murder? Is Hitler off the hook? Steal? Other God's? Graven images? Covet? What pray tell are the gentiles bound by?You're probably a little confused by the teaching you've been exposed to in the sect you belong to. I'm sorry that religion has put you through this confusion. We can only pray for you and we will. The Gentiles are bound by all the Laws taught by Jesus Christ that apply to them. The Holy Council at Jerusalem ratified what is known among Jewish people as the Noahide Laws, which have since that time developed further and are clearly without any authority at present. Christians are under the Law of Christ, the Law preached on the Mount of Olives. They come to God through Faith as Abraham did, not through wearing tzitzis, having a mezuzah or keeping the Sabbath. This is explained well in the NT when read plainly and not when re-interpreted by the new spirits that have come out of the USA like the SDA church, who have no authority from Jesus at all.

To give you an idea of where normal Christians are coming from: The Jewish people have always held that not all of the Torah is for all mankind. This is still believed to this day. You can't dispute that amongst this forum and not get caught out. Jesus kept to that interpretation, as did the Apostles (which is why Acts 15, Galatians and Colossians makes sense- keeping the Jewish interpretation of the Torah going and applying the Law of Christ to Gentiles and Jews alike). Jesus did not change that intepretation, nor did the Apostles after Him. This is one more reason Christianity can claim to be the logical, orthodox fulfillment of Judaism.

People from your sect deny both the authority of the Jews before Messiah and the continuing authority of the church He founded. You say both the Jews and the Christians are wrong. We say they are both right. There's your choice.

Just who was that new covenant given too?Everyone.

Enjoy. I really don't have time to deal with you unless you intend to keep up, and unless you wish to address specific Christian texts. I don't think you can discuss the Talmud with me because I don't think I could take you seriously on a topic you have no real background with.

[RND]

That comment obviously doesn't apply to Jews- so I wonder why you're trying to argue that point?

That statement applies to everyone.

Rom 3:28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=3&v=28&t=KJV#28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

You're probably a little confused by the teaching you've been exposed to in the sect you belong to. I'm sorry that religion has put you through this confusion. We can only pray for you and we will. The Gentiles are bound by all the Laws taught by Jesus Christ that apply to them.One can obey the law through the Holy Spirit. BTW, what are the "laws" taught by Jesus that only apply to the Gentiles?


The Holy Council at Jerusalem ratified what is known among Jewish people as the Noahide Laws, which have since that time developed further and are clearly without any authority at present. Christians are under the Law of Christ, the Law preached on the Mount of Olives.Law of Christ? Love God/love neighbor? Shema brother. Old Covenant.

They come to God through Faith as Abraham did, not through wearing tzitzis, having a mezuzah or keeping the Sabbath. This is explained well in the NT when read plainly and not when re-interpreted by the new spirits that have come out of the USA like the SDA church, who have no authority from Jesus at all.The "law" is established by faith, not in spite of it.

To give you an idea of where normal Christians are coming from: The Jewish people have always held that not all of the Torah is for all mankind. This is still believed to this day.They be wrong then. "One law."

You can't dispute that amongst this forum and not get caught out. I worry little.

Jesus kept to that interpretation, as did the Apostles (which is why Acts 15, Galatians and Colossians makes sense- keeping the Jewish interpretation of the Torah going and applying the Law of Christ to Gentiles and Jews alike). Jesus did not change that intepretation, nor did the Apostles after Him. This is one more reason Christianity can claim to be the logical, orthodox fulfillment of Judaism.Christianity has Hebraic roots, not Jewish. The council at Jerusalem never mentioned any of the 10 Commandments, just the Mosaic law.

People from your sect deny both the authority of the Jews before Messiah and the continuing authority of the church He founded. You say both the Jews and the Christians are wrong. We say they are both right. There's your choice.

Everyone.I'd say let the scriptures decide.

Enjoy. I really don't have time to deal with you unless you intend to keep up, and unless you wish to address specific Christian texts.I've posted several, you've posted.....none.

I don't think you can discuss the Talmud with me because I don't think I could take you seriously on a topic you have no real background with.Try me. But honestly try to work at not being so general. Be specific.

[ContraMundum]

That statement applies to everyone.

Rom 3:28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=3&v=28&t=KJV#28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

We're talking past each other. You're not following me, nor I you.

I've posted several, you've posted.....none.

I don't trust you enough to spend time on you.

[RND]

We're talking past each other. You're not following me, nor I you.

Get your Bible out.

Rom 3:28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=3&v=28&t=KJV#28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

"A man" is justified by faith. Not a Hebrew, not a Jew, not a Catholic, not a anything but a man.

Rom 10:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=10&v=17&t=KJV#17) So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I don't trust you enough to spend time on you.

Gee, I expect more from you honestly, you seem to be giving up way too soon. :)

[SGM4HIM]

So what you'd be saying, essentially, is that everyone except Jews can be homosexuals or have sex with their father's wife? How about bestiality (sorry :blush:)? And before you say, "Well, those we're 're-stated' in the NT" let's keep in mind what Paul was 're-stating':


Under the Torah, Adultery was a sin.Jesus' requirements exceeded the Sinai Torah.
Thinking about adultery, homosexuality, bestiality and sex with father's wife was sin.

Please show me where Paul is saying it is necessary for a "Gentile believer to Keep Torah as a Jew was obligated" in Acts or any other scripture.

[ContraMundum]

Get your Bible out.

You don't get it- you've changed the subject I was responding to- we were talking about Judaism when I made that comment waaay back. You're not staying on focus and now you want to discuss justification in Christianity.

Gee, I expect more from you honestly, you seem to be giving up way too soon. :)

I always give up when I see a waste of time. Haven't you got a Bay City Rollers album you should be listening to or something?

[ContraMundum]

Anyway RND- you should make yourself familiar with this (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7236276) and act accordingly.

[RND]

Anyway RND- you should make yourself familiar with this (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7236276) and act accordingly.

Have you considered your own advice? I would say just re-reading the thread you came off fairly nasty to me. Oh, well!

Maybe it's time to invest in a few mirrors in your house.

[RND]

You don't get it- you've changed the subject I was responding to- we were talking about Judaism when I made that comment waaay back. You're not staying on focus and now you want to discuss justification in Christianity.

Brother, you decided to comment on a point I made to another poster. Steer me right if I'm wrong but this thread is about the sabbath isn't it?

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=50031054&postcount=39

It went downhill fast from here after you tried to tell me I have no idea what I'm talking about....oh well.

I always give up when I see a waste of time.

Maybe you should be a little less hasty in posting your thoughts - especially if you don't want them challenged.

Haven't you got a Bay City Rollers album you should be listening to or something?

I seem to recall another poster's advice regarding the rules and respect....I'm sure it's here. Somewhere. Oh I'll find it someday.

[anisavta]

Have y'all noticed - while you are bickering, Messianic5 who started the OP has not posted here lately.
My take is that while you are deciding the fate of Shabbat for her - she is following the Ruach Hakodesh and enjoying Shabbat and her Creator whether you decree that she can do it or not.
Just an observation.

[RND]

Have y'all noticed - while you are bickering, Messianic5 who started the OP has not posted here lately.
My take is that while you are deciding the fate of Shabbat for her - she is following the Ruach Hakodesh and enjoying Shabbat and her Creator whether you decree that she can do it or not.
Just an observation.

Does that mean I get a free espresso and a puppy?

[anisavta]

Have you been left unattended?

[ContraMundum]

Have you considered your own advice? I would say just re-reading the thread you came off fairly nasty to me. Oh, well!

Maybe it's time to invest in a few mirrors in your house.

HINT: you're not allowed to debate or teach here. That's the rules. That's why I posted them. Do I have to be so blunt? I didn't want to hit the report button because I would have thought you were keen enough to pick that up.

I seem to recall another poster's advice regarding the rules and respect....I'm sure it's here

Yes- respect the forum first. If you want to debate the SDA doctrine of the Sabbath, there's plenty of other places to do that. This forum is not one of them unless Messianic Hebrew Christians decide we want to debate it amongst ourselves- and we don't.

We've heard - ad nauseam- the endless claims of the SDA and others and nothing you say is new to us. Nothing. We've already thought this through, ok? Us more than anyone. Don't forget: we are mainly Jewish people in this forum who still keep the Sabbath as a personal devotion and choice, not to mention other things we pertain to be given specially to us, so yes, we've thought it through and we have a position on it that we consider orthodox. You don't need to preach your SDA doctrine here, because we were keeping Sabbath when Ellen White was making false prophecies and trying to start her own church.

Why come here and debate where you cannot and then claim we are being "challenged" by the fundie claims of some religion that is not even a couple of hundred years old?

[RND]

HINT: you're not allowed to debate or teach here. That's the rules. That's why I posted them. Do I have to be so blunt? I didn't want to hit the report button because I would have thought you were keen enough to pick that up.

Brother, I haven't said anything that is against the FSG's of the group. In fact, I am upholding them. I am not debating "against" Messianic Jews in anyway, nor am I disrespecting any Messianics. Lastly there has been a Messianic moderator in here and she hasn't said anything.

If you want to hit the report button that's on you but I think you be extremely hard pressed to show where I have spoken contrary to the FSG's of this board.

Yes- respect the forum first. If you want to debate the SDA doctrine of the Sabbath, there's plenty of other places to do that. This forum is not one of them unless Messianic Hebrew Christians decide we want to debate it amongst ourselves- and we don't.

Brother, there have been other's of SDA persaution as well as other denominations that have posted here. In fact, one non-Messianic has argueed here why keeping the sabbath is unnecessary. That, I suppose, would be against the FSG's.

Speaking in favor of the Sabbath is not a vilolation.

We've heard - ad nauseam- the endless claims of the SDA and others and nothing you say is new to us. Nothing. We've already thought this through, ok? Us more than anyone. Don't forget: we are mainly Jewish people in this forum who still keep the Sabbath as a personal devotion and choice, not to mention other things we pertain to be given specially to us, so yes, we've thought it through and we have a position on it that we consider orthodox. You don't need to preach your SDA doctrine here, because we were keeping Sabbath when Ellen White was making false prophecies and trying to start her own church.

I haven't mentioned any Messianic teachers in a derisive or negetive way, why do you feel compelled to do so? I have said nothing negetive nor incindary regarding any Messianic here.

I'd say you need to re-read the rules. You are certainly not living up to the spirit of them.

Why come here and debate where you cannot and then claim we are being "challenged" by the fundie claims of some religion that is not even a couple of hundred years old?

Who's debating? You seem to have a problem with me, not I with you.

[RND]

Under the Torah, Adultery was a sin.Jesus' requirements exceeded the Sinai Torah.
Thinking about adultery, homosexuality, bestiality and sex with father's wife was sin.

Jesus gave the "spirit" of the law. Bless your enemies, don't curse. New Covenant. He did come to change the law He came to "teach" the law.

The sabbath was made for man..."

Please show me where Paul is saying it is necessary for a "Gentile believer to Keep Torah as a Jew was obligated" in Acts or any other scripture.

Timothy, if you'll recall was a gentile that was circumcised - this after Jesus died on the cross.

2Ti 3:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Ti&c=3&v=16&t=KJV#comm/16) All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Short, sweet and to the point. All scripture. Not some. Not just the Pentateuch. Not just the Tanakh. All scripture.

[RND]

SGM4HIM is a gentile arguing that the sabbath need not be kept. I'm a gentile that is arguing that it is a definite requirement of the law.

[RND]

Have you been left unattended?

Evidently! :)

[ContraMundum]

Brother, I haven't said anything that is against the FSG's of the group. In fact, I am upholding them. I am not debating "against" Messianic Jews in anyway, nor am I disrespecting any Messianics. Lastly there has been a Messianic moderator in here and she hasn't said anything.

I was a moderator here for a couple of years...let me help you.

The rules state: "This is a place of fellowship for those who consider themselves Messianic Hebrew Christian***. All the rest of the members of MJ who are not Messianic Hebrew Christians should consider themselves guests in this subforum, respect the members in this subforum, and follow the FELLOWSHIP (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=6899690) posting guidelines."

If you are not a MHC, you are a guest, and as such you should follow fellowship posting guidelines. They state:

"DEFINITION OF A FELLOWSHIP POST

1) It is not debate or apologetics (defense).

Those who disagree with a congregation’s Statement of Faith will not discuss reasons for or against any subject being discussed on this sub-forum. This includes questions that essentially are rebuttal or argumentative in nature. Those who disagree will not engage in theological discussions that defend their particular point of view on scriptural, theological, doctrinal, social, or political issues.

2) It is not answering questions or teaching.

Only a member of the congregational forum may give answers to and instruct on doctrinal questions. While there may be many very good ideas on the subject from non-members, they may not give instruction. Earnest questions are always welcome, from anyone.

3) What Fellowship is:

Essentially fellowship is defined as the discussion of topics of association, of companionship - i.e. discussions of things like friends, family, work..... these topics are fellowship. Posts that offer friendship would certainly be described as fellowship. "

Now, perhaps you didn't know this, but your posts have been teaching/debating by the definition of the site.

Brother, there have been other's of SDA persaution as well as other denominations that have posted here. In fact, one non-Messianic has argueed here why keeping the sabbath is unnecessary. That, I suppose, would be against the FSG's.

Speaking in favor of the Sabbath is not a vilolation.

I haven't mentioned any Messianic teachers in a derisive or negetive way, why do you feel compelled to do so? I have said nothing negetive nor incindary regarding any Messianic here.

I'd say you need to re-read the rules. You are certainly not living up to the spirit of them.


Speaking in favour of the Sabbath itself is not a violation- we all do it, however, saying that it is a sin for a Gentile not to keep the Jewish Sabbath and then arguing the point out is a violation of the rules: for you.

Let me help you with the history of the creation of this sub-forum. For many years the Messianics who attended Christian churches felt that they needed their own chill space. Other Messianics attend messianic-Jewish styled congregations that have more in common theologically with pentecostal/baptist teachings with Hebrew roots theology than what would be mainstream. We are not against those churches, but we have endured a lot of attacks from their members on this forum. Eventually, we were given this place as a space to chill.

The Messianic Hebrew Christian is more than just a convert to Judaism who attends a church, he or she is also observant to Jewish tradition and believes (by and large) that this is to be maintained and promoted for Jews, as it is our culture and heritage. This is one reason why we tend to adhere to the Jewish understanding of the Law and thus by extention believe that the NT Apostles can be taken as literally read on this topic- we see a continuity.

Anyway- it's not you that I have an issue with- it's the derailing of the topic to argue SDA doctrine in a forum meant to be a place where we can talk about Church stuff and our heritage.

[RND]

I was a moderator here for a couple of years...let me help you.

The rules state: "This is a place of fellowship for those who consider themselves Messianic Hebrew Christian***. All the rest of the members of MJ who are not Messianic Hebrew Christians should consider themselves guests in this subforum, respect the members in this subforum, and follow the FELLOWSHIP (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=6899690) posting guidelines."

If you are not a MHC, you are a guest, and as such you should follow fellowship posting guidelines. They state:

"DEFINITION OF A FELLOWSHIP POST

1) It is not debate or apologetics (defense).

Those who disagree with a congregation’s Statement of Faith will not discuss reasons for or against any subject being discussed on this sub-forum. This includes questions that essentially are rebuttal or argumentative in nature. Those who disagree will not engage in theological discussions that defend their particular point of view on scriptural, theological, doctrinal, social, or political issues.

2) It is not answering questions or teaching.

Only a member of the congregational forum may give answers to and instruct on doctrinal questions. While there may be many very good ideas on the subject from non-members, they may not give instruction. Earnest questions are always welcome, from anyone.

3) What Fellowship is:

Essentially fellowship is defined as the discussion of topics of association, of companionship - i.e. discussions of things like friends, family, work..... these topics are fellowship. Posts that offer friendship would certainly be described as fellowship."

Now, perhaps you didn't know this, but your posts have been teaching/debating by the definition of the site.

Have you considered letting the mods here do their job and not attacking me personally?

Speaking in favour of the Sabbath itself is not a violation- we all do it, however, saying that it is a sin for a Gentile not to keep the Jewish Sabbath and then arguing the point out is a violation of the rules: for you.

Again, nothing transpired here of this nature. Again, how about letting the professionals do their job and stop attacking others?

Let me help you with the history of the creation of this sub-forum. For many years the Messianics who attended Christian churches felt that they needed their own chill space. Other Messianics attend messianic-Jewish styled congregations that have more in common theologically with pentecostal/baptist teachings with Hebrew roots theology than what would be mainstream. We are not against those churches, but we have endured a lot of attacks from their members on this forum. Eventually, we were given this place as a space to chill.

Outstanding. Have you considered using this in principle?

The Messianic Hebrew Christian is more than just a convert to Judaism who attends a church, he or she is also observant to Jewish tradition and believes (by and large) that this is to be maintained and promoted for Jews, as it is our culture and heritage. This is one reason why we tend to adhere to the Jewish understanding of the Law and thus by extention believe that the NT Apostles can be taken as literally read on this topic- we see a continuity.

I go to church with several Messianics that grace our Seventh-day Adventist congregation with their presence . I have become quite familiar with Messianics and what they believe. Ask Visionary.

Anyway- it's not you that I have an issue with- it's the derailing of the topic to argue SDA doctrine in a forum meant to be a place where we can talk about Church stuff and our heritage.

Again, you interjected yourself in between a discussion I was having with another and nothing other than the scriptures were argued. You sir were the one out of line, not I.

I request that you go back and re-read this post to see that I have spoken complete truth here and it is you that have escalated this for absolutely no reason. Please now - stop harassing me. I have done nothing wrong here, nor have I disrespected any Messianics. If you are going to continue to falsely accuse me of things I have not done I will be forced to take further action.

Have a good night. And may Yashua Messiah HaShem continue to bless you.

Sh'ma Yis'ra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad.

[ContraMundum]

Have a good night. And may Yashua Messiah HaShem continue to bless you.


Thanks.