Corporal Punishment

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

This seems like an odd topic, but I'm wondering what you all think of spanking children. I know that a lot of non-Orthodox churches take the proverb "Spare the rod and spoil the child" literally (and maybe Orthodox too, I don't know). Some protestant churches will go as far as to indicate it's a sin NOT to spank your child.

I'm not at all comfortable with the idea of inflicting physical pain in order to get a child to conform to my demands. I don't have children yet, but this is the same reason I won't hit my dogs to get them to do what I want either. I certainly do think that discipline is necessary, but I think this can be achieved in a non-physical aggression way. What do y'all think?

[Akathist]

My husband spanked his two kids only once or twice ever. After this they always did what he said. (Of course he spanked them for not accepting any other form of correction.) I say this because he was raised in an Serbian EO home and I seriously doubt he would have spanked under his mother's home if this was against the teaching of the faith. (They lived all together)

Personally, I agree with this approach. If a four year old, for example, will not go to time out (after being taught what time out is), then warn about a spanking once, then tap their behind with the flat of a hand (mostly to make noise) and put into time out. (In other words, only use corporal punishment as a last effort to enforce other means of discipline.) (However, I feel very strongly that it is never appropriate to hit a child on their head or bruise them, or to strike them with objects, or even to spank with one's hand when very angry. These are abusive imo.)

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

My husband spanked his two kids only once or twice ever. After this they always did what he said. (Of course he spanked them for not accepting any other form of correction.) I say this because he was raised in an Serbian EO home and I seriously doubt he would have spanked under his mother's home if this was against the teaching of the faith. (They lived all together)

Personally, I agree with this approach. If a four year old, for example, will not go to time out (after being taught what time out is), then warn about a spanking once, then tap their behind with the flat of a hand (mostly to make noise) and put into time out. (In other words, only use corporal punishment as a last effort to enforce other means of discipline.) (However, I feel very strongly that it is never appropriate to hit a child on their head or bruise them, or to strike them with objects, or even to spank with one's hand when very angry. These are abusive imo.)
I understand that most parents who spank only do it as a last resort. However, this is a part of the problem. By the time the child has repeatly disobeyed the parent, that parent is both frustrated and angry. As a result, the child gets spanked not so much for what they did, but because the parent is at the end of their rope and doesn't know what else to do. So the child gets punished out of anger and frustration. It's not fair to take your anger out (in a physical way) on a child just because they're small. Think about it, we don't hit other adults when they don't do what we want because 1. it's illegal, and 2. they would hit back! Also, what does it teach the child about how to deal with others when someone does something you don't like?

I'm not any sort of expert, and I don't have children, but I have taken care of a lot of children (I used to work in daycare) and know how frustrating it can be. I just think there must be a better, more Christ-like way to handle disobedience.

[DjHurricane]

Kids need discipline if you want them to grow up to be half-decent mature human beings. Spank Away.

P.S. I think this is an issue remote of dogma

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Kids need discipline if you want them to grow up to be half-decent mature human beings. Spank Away.

P.S. I think this is an issue remote of dogma
There are lots of decent, mature human beings who weren't spanked as children. Unfortunately I'm not one of those. I was spanked for everything imaginable (abused in various ways) and felt nothing but fear, hatred, and disrespect for the parent who was inflicting the pain on me. My dad used to get severely beaten by his mother who was a staunch Baptist. I think she really believed it was a Godly thing to beat children. I suppose that's an exception to the rule.

[The Prokeimenon!]

I agree with DJ HUrricane - I'm not sure there is any Orthdox dogma regarding this stuff. However, I strongly disagree with the rest of what he said. As a former super-fundy, I have seen quite a difference between that world and the Orthodox world. In the SF world, everyone spanks their kids for everything. I saw kids get hit before church, during church, after church, during socials, whatever, sometimes for things that were so minor it appalled me. The parents I've seen since becoming Orthodox spank VERY rarely. Me, if I ever get the priviledge of having kids, when they grow up I want them to be able to count all the times they were spanked on their fingers. It should be VERY rare, and VERY last resort. On a personal note, I was still getting spanked and getting my face slapped when I was 17. If I talked back (ie, HER idea of talking back). If she somehow didn't like my tone of voice, even when I would swear up and down I meant no disrespect. If I spilled something. If she was just sure she'd told me to do something (which she often forgot to tell me) and I hadn't done it. Every little offense, real or imagined, would send a fist flying at me, either my face or my fanny, probably an average of 5-6 times a week. So I have a problem with this "spank away" idea. It sounds cavalier, and a parent must examine WHY they are spanking their child. My dad, on the other hand, while not a perfect parent either, spanked very, very rarely - probably less than 15 times my whole life. Guess which one I have an okay relationship with now, and guess which one is strained beyond belief. I'm working with my priest to get over my fury and grief of spending so many years in constant terror of her, never knowing what was going to happen next. I haven't forgiven her yet, but by God's grace someday I will. It's really difficult.

And she still thinks all the spanking and hitting she did was fine, still quotes that verse about spare the rod.

So while I agree that SOME spanking can be beneficial under SOME circumstances, let's not be so cavalier as to think we can spank and hit over every little thing without inflicting long term consequences on the child. Let's not "spank away". Let's pray daily that God would give us the grace to do right by our children, and handle each situation with mercy, love, discipline, structure, and yes, if it comes down to it, spanking, but never out of rage. And God forbid we ever "spank away".

Katherine

{EDIT after reading what GDE just said: My mother is a staunch Baptist. And her father, also a staunch Baptist, beat all of them, once beating her older brother unconscious. All the above churches I grew up in were Baptist. I am NOT saying all Baptists beat their children, but I am saying that what you described was not an isolated case after all).

[Rilian]

I think all kids need structure and discipline. Corporal punishment I'm hesitent about, both because I'm not really clear on how much it helps in the long run and also because of the gray area that can arise between punishment and abuse. Overall I think it should be an absolute last resort.

I have a two and a four year old, and I know I've had to seriously resist the temptation to spank them when I've gotten really angry. My wife went to a parenting class last year and came back with some techniques on how to effectively deal with kids that we've both found helpful.

[Moros]

Words hurt far worse than the temporary sting of a swat to the behind. My mom used to say "I'm not angry, just disappointed." I took that quite heavily as a little kid. Of course I outgrew it, she swatted me once - just once - when I was quite young and she felt absolutely terrible about it. So that was the end of that.

[Orthodox Andrew]

If I have kids I will not hit them.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

I think all kids need structure and discipline. Corporal punishment I'm hesitent about, both because I'm not really clear on how much it helps in the long run and also because of the gray area that can arise between punishment and abuse. Overall I think it should be an absolute last resort.

I have a two and a four year old, and I know I've had to seriously resist the temptation to spank them when I've gotten really angry. My wife went to a parenting class last year and came back with some techniques on how to effectively deal with kids that we've both found helpful.
I appreciate your answer, Rilian.:) It's nice to know there are still some good parents out there.

[Akathist]

no childhood discipline should be done in anger. (That was the point of my post above, BTW).

We are reminded to love one another as Jesus loves the Church. So often it is sad but true, people will love their neighbor by showing restraint and temperance but not members of their own family.

When I taught parenting classes, one of the first things we discussed in class was the importance of the parent resolving the misbehavior without aggression, but also not waiting to resolve it to the point of losing one's temper. Little Lisa won't go to time out. That is frustrating. But don't spend half an hour warning her over and over until you lose your temper and hit her up side the head. (One of my mother's favorite things to do.) Stay calm and help the child learn to be obedient to authority while they are young and when they are older they will have a better life.

(And yes, you can do this without ever hitting, but I don't consider a tap on the behind of a 4 year old to be hitting. Yet, I admit I did not teach parents to tap their child in my classes because some people interpret tapping differently. To me tapping is no harder than I would hit my own thigh when calling my cat or dog to come to me.)

[Akathist]

I know Mother Teresa of Calcutta is not an EO Saint. (And may not be yet in RC) But I was justing thinking right now, how did she and her nuns discipline all those children?

[countrymousenc]

To those of you who were abused: Please don't think that abusing children and spanking them are the same thing. Hitting a child in anger is abuse, no matter what. Cool-headedly spanking a child for deliberate and/or premeditated disobedience is not abusive. I have known 2 parents (different families) who, because they grew up being abused, refused to allow their children to be spanked. Not every child needs corporal correction, but strong-headed children do, and their children fall into that category. In one of these families the two boys (who had never been spanked or allowed to watch violent tv shows), as young teenagers, started hitting their mother.

With apologies for getting on a high horse just a bit, I am concerned about the over-reaction that has become politically correct among younger parents. I have witnessed (more than once) very young children (with strong-headed temperaments) hitting their moms in front of their dads and being allowed to get away with it. Children who had never been spanked. Please understand that it is important to fit the disciplinary approach to the temperament of the individual child. Please also understand that the phenomenon of abusive behavior isn't passed on in such a straightforwared manner as popular media would have us believe. It has as much to do with temperament as it has to do with parental behavior. A spoiled highstrung child is highly likely to grow up to be abusive in some manner, or to lead a reckless irresponsible life.

Please don't let what you experienced keep you from meting out what they might need.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

To those of you who were abused: Please don't think that abusing children and spanking them are the same thing. Hitting a child in anger is abuse, no matter what. Cool-headedly spanking a child for deliberate and/or premeditated disobedience is not abusive. I have known 2 parents (different families) who, because they grew up being abused, refused to allow their children to be spanked. Not every child needs corporal correction, but strong-headed children do, and their children fall into that category. In one of these families the two boys (who had never been spanked or allowed to watch violent tv shows), as young teenagers, started hitting their mother.


I realize that probably not all spanking is abuse. I've just never witnessed a scenario where a parent who WASN'T angry and frustrated spanked their child. I tend to believe in the Biblical principle of reaping and sowing where parenting is concerned. If you sow discipline with love in a child, you reap a child who feels loved and will return that love in the form of respect. If you sow anger and physical agression in a child, you will reap an angry child who's behavioral problems will only get worse. Temperment does play a role, but I think over all children live what they learn (MHO).

As far as kids hitting their parents, I know what you mean. I have a friend who doesn't spank her child, and this child is a holy terror and has even given his father a black eye. Now, this child didn't do this because he doesn't get spanked. He did it because he doesn't get disciplined in ANY way. Nothing but meaningless verbal warnings that never get carried out. This kid is headed for a hard life. There are plenty of ways to discipline children without spanking. I'm not opposed to a gentle tap on the tush to let a stubborn child know you mean business, but I think it's really hard to control the amount of physical force you use on a child when you're already angry (which I think is usually the case).

[countrymousenc]

I'm not opposed to a gentle tap on the tush to let a stubborn child know you mean business, but I think it's really hard to control the amount of physical force you use on a child when you're already angry (which I think is usually the case).

The best approach is for a parent not to wait until he or she is already angry. Abuse happens after anger has set in, whether it is expressed by physical force or by raging at, ostracizing, or belittling the child. My parents used to sit me down and try to reason it out when I was very young. I felt held captive to listen to a lot of words I couldn't understand. I'd much rather have had a swift pop on the behind and a brief and simple statement of what I'd done wrong. Later they resorted to "spanking" me out of anger or frustration. It shouldn't have happened.

I have, however, seen kids spanked (and have done it myself) without anger. No loving parent likes doing it, but headstrong children sometimes don't respond to anything else. Both my kids (teenagers) have thanked me for it. (Honest!)

[Alfred M]

There is no way to spell out a sure fire method that will raise every child. I think countrymouse said it pretty well. My wife and I have raised two boys, one now 20 and a sophomore in college and a 16 year old who will be a junior in high school. Both are GREAT kids! We adhered to a form of the most boring punishment we could think that essentially was like "time-out". We would make the boys lie on their bed face up with their arms at their side and not talk at all. They hated this. Only when they showed spit in your eye defiance to instruction, did they get a swat or two, and like stated above, this was more noise than anything. There are times when you have to take charge and show immediately who is in charge...but again as also said above be very careful of your temper. If you lose control, it's best not to entertain spanking (or any form of physical contact) as punishment.

Realize too that harsh words can and do have a long term effect on children as well. I also think it may be a good time to point out that most children learn how to interact relationally by seeing how their parents act towards each other than directly from how they interacted with their parents.

In the love of our Saviour,

Alfred, chief of all sinners

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

There is no way to spell out a sure fire method that will raise every child. I think countrymouse said it pretty well. My wife and I have raised two boys, one now 20 and a sophomore in college and a 16 year old who will be a junior in high school. Both are GREAT kids! We adhered to a form of the most boring punishment we could think that essentially was like "time-out". We would make the boys lie on their bed face up with their arms at their side and not talk at all. They hated this. Only when they showed spit in your eye defiance to instruction, did they get a swat or two, and like stated above, this was more noise than anything. There are times when you have to take charge and show immediately who is in charge...but again as also said above be very careful of your temper. If you lose control, it's best not to entertain spanking (or any form of physical contact) as punishment.

Realize too that harsh words can and do have a long term effect on children as well. I also think it may be a good time to point out that most children learn how to interact relationally by seeing how their parents act towards each other than directly from how they interacted with their parents.

In the love of our Saviour,

Alfred, chief of all sinners
Wisdom! Let us attend!:)

[Rilian]

It's nice to know there are still some good parents out there.

Hmmm, I just try my best, which often isn't very good actually. Luckily, when everyone is melting down (including me), my wife is generally there to pick up the pieces.

thornygrace and countrymouse made some very good points, especially about not reacting in anger which is one of the main things I've had to work on.

[Dust and Ashes]

I know it really drives me nuts to be at my friend's home while his child as acting out. "Stop that...I said stop...quit it...don't do that...I told you to stop...you better stop...stop...don't do that again...stop it now...stop doing that...you better not do that again...I said stop..."

It makes me want to get up, walk over and slap my friend and say, "Stop saying that!!" :D

Personally I don't see anything wrong with spanking if it is used correctly. By that I mean rarely enough that when you are forced to use the threat of spanking, it will usually achieve the desired result. I mean if a child is going to be spanked every time they turn their head, what kind of deterrent is it? Find a more creative way to correct or punish. If a child steals something, take a favorite toy and throw it away or something. Make the punishment fit the "crime" so to speak. But then I enjoy mind games anyway. ;)

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Hmmm, I just try my best, which often isn't very good actually. Luckily, when everyone is melting down (including me), my wife is generally there to pick up the pieces.

thornygrace and countrymouse made some very good points, especially about not reacting in anger which is one of the main things I've had to work on.
Disclaimer: By calling Rilian a good parent, I do not mean to indicate that the other people who have posted on this thread are not good parents. I just appreciated the fact that you (Rilian) seem to have humility where parenting is concerned. You know you don't always get it right, and you are willing to evaluate what you are or are not doing to determine a better way. Humility is always a good thing. It keeps us coming to God for guidance.

Brad, I really kinda hope you're just kidding about the mind games thing. Those can be far worse than spanking. I know from experience.

[Akathist]

This is not about corporal punishment but I found this article on line about the "Orthodox Way of Raising Children" and thought you might like the link.

When you get to the page the first part of it is from a police magazine or flyer about what NOT to do. ("How to raise a juvenile delinquent.") It is interesting, but the article I am referring to is below this.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/child_e2.htm

[Akathist]

The powerful influence of images on the soul is one reason why icons should have a prominent place in the Orthodox home. In his book, The Meaning of Icons, Leonid Ouspensky writes that the icon "transmits, or rather testifies visually to. . . the reality of God and of the world of grace and of nature." Iconography, he says, is a means which the Church employs to convey its teaching, to transmit the revelation of the divine world, to point to the Kingdom of Heaven. Icons are reflections of men who have been regenerated into eternity; they aid us in uncovering and developing the beauty of holiness. In other words, they help men attain likeness to God, following the basic principle that "we become like that which we habitually contemplate" (Constantine Cavarnos, Orthodox Iconography.).



The same principle holds true for the abominable images which have invaded the world of children's toys. "It is well known," writes Bishop Theophan the Recluse (l894), "how powerfully corrupt images act upon the soul, no matter in what form they might touch it." Children are particularly vulnerable; their consciousness and their identities are not yet developed. And so, Satan has targeted them with his own perverse form of "iconography": images which harden their souls and accustom them to a world of darkness - a world where traditionally demonic images are considered "good," where ugliness and brutishness are glorified, and where aggression is rewarded. The lines of good and evil are blurred. There is no God. The "saviours" of the world come from outer space. Or they come in the form of Nietzsche's superman, who wields power without conscience. Far from being repulsed by these monstrous inventions, many children describe them as "cool, "awesome," and, approvingly, "bad." Should Satan visit these children in their dreams, they would have no fear, and no defense.
I found this paragraph to be very intersesting as I am exploring Icons.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

I found this paragraph to be very intersesting as I am exploring Icons.
WOW. Excellent article. I love Bp. Mileant's website. I think this does relate to parenting. Parents need to be icons for their children, always reflecting the love, grace, and reality of God's presence. I especially love this quote:

"we become like that which we habitually contemplate" (Constantine Cavarnos, Orthodox Iconography.).

[Akathist]

Where did you get that smilie of the woman with headscarf crossing herself as Orthodox and praying?

I would love to put that into my signature. Who do I ask?

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Where did you get that smilie of the woman with headscarf crossing herself as Orthodox and praying?

I would love to put that into my signature. Who do I ask?
See the thread about new ideas for Orthodox smilies. I'd love to use the one with the exploding head, but I can't get that one to work,

[MariaRegina]

The Power of Icons

When my son would misbehave, I would take the icon commonly called Our Lady of Perpetual Help by Catholics (Our Lady of Sorrows) and have him gaze at it. His anger would melt and he would calm down instantly.

[Matrona]

The Power of Icons

When my son would misbehave, I would take the icon commonly called Our Lady of Perpetual Help by Catholics (Our Lady of Sorrows) and have him gaze at it. His anger would melt and he would calm down instantly.
What icon is that in Orthodox-speak? :)

[MariaRegina]

What icon is that in Orthodox-speak? :)

This is the icon that was taken by the crusaders (Venicians) to Venice. Supposedly it was written by St. Luke. The Catholics put a golden crown on her head and venerate the icon as Our Lady of Perpetual Help. It has angels on the left and right hand side of the Theotokos (and child Jesus) with the instruments of crucifixion. It is called Panagia Formidable or Our Lady of Sorrows by different Orthodox monasteries. This comes from www.skete.com

http://www.skete.com/images/icons/T47.JPG

Hope this helps,
Elizabeth

[Matrona]

This is the icon that was taken by the crusaders (Venicians) to Venice. Supposedly it was written by St. Luke. The Catholics put a golden crown on her head and venerate the icon as Our Lady of Perpetual Help.

Ah, yes. I am more familiar with that icon when it is called the Virgin of the Passion.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

The Power of Icons

When my son would misbehave, I would take the icon commonly called Our Lady of Perpetual Help by Catholics (Our Lady of Sorrows) and have him gaze at it. His anger would melt and he would calm down instantly.
That sounds like a great idea, Aria! If I ever marry and have children (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/greymooncrest/WomanPrayer.gif) I'll have to try that.:)

[katherine2001]

I have a Russian icon of "Joy of All Who Sorrow" and I love it. I got it at the OCA church I attended when I visited my brother and his family in Albuquerque. I keep it in a prominent place in my bedroom. I suffer from depression and it helps me a lot.

[MariaRegina]

I have a Russian icon of "Joy of All Who Sorrow" and I love it. I got it at the OCA church I attended when I visited my brother and his family in Albuquerque. I keep it in a prominent place in my bedroom. I suffer from depression and it helps me a lot.

God bless you, Katherine.

The Icon of St. Seraphim who greeted all with "My joy, Christ is Risen" always cheers me when I'm feeling sick or weary.

Lovingly in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

[Matthias]

I don't want to come across as sounding rude, but I for one would give my children a good belting if they stepped out of line.

My aunty's husband used to belt his children and grandchildren with the metal end of his belt until they were bleeding out of control.

Speaking on the school side of things; we have students beating teachers. Teachers need to be able to give children a good beating to keep them in line, and the same should be said of parents.

I don't believe it is a sin to belt your children around a bit if they play up, just don't go over the top with it by using bricks or metal poles.

That's why society's children today are spoilt rotten; there's no belting these days, or less than there used to be.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

I don't want to come across as sounding rude, but I for one would give my children a good belting if they stepped out of line.

My aunty's husband used to belt his children and grandchildren with the metal end of his belt until they were bleeding out of control.

Speaking on the school side of things; we have students beating teachers. Teachers need to be able to give children a good beating to keep them in line, and the same should be said of parents.

I don't believe it is a sin to belt your children around a bit if they play up, just don't go over the top with it by using bricks or metal poles.

That's why society's children today are spoilt rotten; there's no belting these days, or less than there used to be.Okay, Matthias, it seems that most of your posts these days are so far out of line that people probably should just ignore them. I'm trying to do that, but I wanted to address you advocation of child beating. Mostly because I don't want any inquirers or newbies to see this trash and think it represents what most, or any, of the rest of us think.

***FOR ANY NEWCOMERS***
Neither the Orthodox Church, nor most of the members here, advocate "beating" or "belting" your children.

Just wanted to clear up any misconceptions.:)

[Matrona]

I don't want to come across as sounding rude, but I for one would give my children a good belting if they stepped out of line.

My aunty's husband used to belt his children and grandchildren with the metal end of his belt until they were bleeding out of control.

Speaking on the school side of things; we have students beating teachers. Teachers need to be able to give children a good beating to keep them in line, and the same should be said of parents.

I don't believe it is a sin to belt your children around a bit if they play up, just don't go over the top with it by using bricks or metal poles.

That's why society's children today are spoilt rotten; there's no belting these days, or less than there used to be.In that case, I pray you are rendered impotent before you can have children, through whatever means necessary, and that you shall never be allowed to adopt.

[Rilian]

Hopefully by the time Matthias gets around to having kids, his perspective on this will mature a little.

The only good thing I can say is this reminded me of the Simpson's episode where the Captain is put in charge of the kids at Bart's school and as he runs through the list of actions for every infraction, the punishment is invariably a "paddlin".

[Matthias]

Matrona, keep dreaming, I don't care about your comments towards me; Miss. Queen of Orthodoxy...

I'm not the only one who shares this view, I know that much. I wasn't meaning a belting so that they bleed a lot, like my aunty's husband, but just a whacking if they step out of line.

Several slaps to the backside. Nothing else. If that makes me un-Christian, then maybe I need to look at athiesm then...

[Matthias]

And, Matrona, if you pray that I can't have children, what sort of a person does that make you? Do you think God will answer such a pathetic excuse for a prayer? I think not...

[MariaRegina]

And, Matrona, if you pray that I can't have children, what sort of a person does that make you? Do you think God will answer such a pathetic excuse for a prayer? I think not...


I agree Matthew, we should not speak with such passion. It's not good for our souls. :eek: Perhaps in charity a little editing can be done by all involved.

However ...

Please remember that this is a lenten period in preparation for the Dorition of the Theotokos.

Perhaps a fast from CF would be good for all. In this way, one can spend more time in prayer and spiritual reading.

Prayerfully in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

[katherine2001]

I agree that Matrona maybe shouldn't have said that she hoped you'd never have kids. But if you've seen the damage caused to people who were beaten and abused during their childhood and seen their wounds, I don't think you'd make remarks about beating, etc. lightly. Unfortunately, in too many homes, it is tragically true.

[Matthias]

I was referring to my aunty's brother regarding using the end of a belt. I just believe if children play up, a small whack on the backside will keep them in line with what is right and wrong.

Research shows this is far more effective than sending them to their room with no hot chocolate. I wasn't suggesting using a belt or any weapon. If the "belting" comment I said suggested using a BELT, then that's not what I meant. Belting over here is another word for smacking...

We have children hitting their parents and teachers; and the VERY high majority of these were not hit when they were younger. Maybe I am outspoken on this, but I believe corporal punishment is right.

Aria; good idea about a break from CF; I know I could definitely use one.

[Matthias]

I'm talking about dicipline, NOT abuse. It is sad when children are beaten to death. I am talking about dicipline.

[MariaRegina]

Moderation is the key as virtue lies in the middle.

[Orthodox Andrew]

Thread closed.