Any Sabbath keeping Christians on this forum?

[JereReagan]

Anyone?

[mjterry87]

Us messianics keep Sabbath, but we really aren't Christians.

[Bon]

Same here JereReagan.
Not Sabbath keeping christian.
But Sabbath keeping Messianic believer.

There are many differences between the christian and the Messianic believer apart from which day we call our Sabbath.

Sorry if we havent helped you in your quest whatever it may be.

But feel free to ask us any questions regarding our faith and beliefs.

Shalom from Bon :)

[Svt4Him]

What exactly are you looking for, as I would believe I was a Sabbath keeping Messianic believer too.

[cathy_07]

Can someone explain to me what the difference between a messainic believer and a Christian. I just want to make sure I'm getting my definitions right ^_^ thank you in advance!

[Bon]

Can someone explain to me what the difference between a messainic believer and a Christian. I just want to make sure I'm getting my definitions right ^_^ thank you in advance!

Cathy, I can only speak for myself, as there are many factions within the Messianic title.

So if there are any other Messianics who read this please do not disagree with me but let Cathy also know the differences between you as a Messianic and christianity.

I believe that I as a Gentile believer has been grafted onto the Olive tree (Israel) mentioned in Hebrews 11. That means that I am an heir according to the promise of Yahweh. Gal 3:29

Through the Messiah Yahshua (Jesus) I became a child of Abraham, that is through faith. Gal 3:7

Anyway, I believe that by my faith I receive my salvation through Yahshua, as most christians do, but here lies the difference:
Now Yahweh (God) has written His Laws into my heart and into my mind and I am obedient to Him through the Holy Spirit. Hebrews 8:10
I do not believe that His laws were nailed to the cross. (The traditions, doctines and ordinances of men were nailed to the cross). Colossians 2:8 (note the whole of the remaining chapter hangs on verse 8.)

So I willingly keep His Laws and commandments given us in the 'Old Testement'. That is Shabbat (Sabbath) the feasts of Yahweh, kosher laws etc.

Of course I do not keep what we call the pagan festivals of xmas and easter or any other non-biblical festivals, feasts, holidays.

There are many small differences, too many to name in a short message, and much scriptural evidence to back up my beliefs as I believe that I must live my life according to the word of Yahweh and not any other writings.

But I am very willing to discuss anything in further detail if you wish.

So there you have it Cathy, a fairly brief explanation of what differs between me as a Messianic believer and general christianity.

Shalom from Bon :)

[adamdavid]

Can someone explain to me what the difference between a messainic believer and a Christian. I just want to make sure I'm getting my definitions right ^_^ thank you in advance!
Messianic Believers are Jews (or non-Jews 'grafted in' to judaism through the blood of Y'shua/Jesus...), and while they share a common ground with Christians in the belief in the virgin birth/divinity/atoning death/ressurection of Y'shua (Hebrew name for Jesus), they hold to the traditional Jewish feasts, ceremonies, and traditions, disregarding the 'Christian' because of the fact that almost all 'Christian' festivals originate in Paganism and were brought in by the fusing of christianity and paganism that happened when Rome became a 'christian' empire...
Messianic Judaism really is Christianity - the original christianity, untainted by the paganism brought in by the church as it has progressed, but because of the way the church has distorted things, most Messianics choose to use the label 'Messianic Jew' / 'Messianic Believer' instead of Christianity. It is Judaism plus the saving grace of Y'shua, and Christianity without man-made garbage... a beautiful fusion of the two that keeps the good of the old, adds the good of the new, and throws out the bad...
Hope that was a somewhat good explanation... someone let me know if I messed up somewhere :D
Blessings...
AdamDavid

[adamdavid]

Oh look... someone answered faster than I did... I thought I was the first :sigh: ~sighs~ oh well... such is life :D

[cathy_07]

Thank you both very much for the explenations! (I believe I got most of it right... wow, good for me ^_^). Question: is Christmas really a pagan holiday?... hmmm... lol, anyway, again I thank you both!

[Gods by Grace]

Not currently, but I've recently been considering it. My current understanding is that we aren't told not to keep the sabbath, but rather not to be legalistic as the pharisees of the time were.

Exodus says that the sabbath will be a sign between God and the Isrealites throughtout their generations that he santifies them. (paraphase of Exodus 31:13).

Isreals generations aren't up yet, so the sign should still be here. I'm not racially jewish, but I've been grafted it so that counts for me too.

The only reason I haven't committed yet is that I am known to be a tad lazy. I want to make sure I make an objective decision, not a subjective one.

[Bon]

Not currently, but I've recently been considering it. My current understanding is that we aren't told not to keep the sabbath, but rather not to be legalistic as the pharisees of the time were.

Exodus says that the sabbath will be a sign between God and the Isrealites throughtout their generations that he santifies them. (paraphase of Exodus 31:13).

Isreals generations aren't up yet, so the sign should still be here. I'm not racially jewish, but I've been grafted it so that counts for me too.

The only reason I haven't committed yet is that I am known to be a tad lazy. I want to make sure I make an objective decision, not a subjective one.

Go! Go! 'Gods by Grace',
But dont rush! Search the scriptures for the truth of Yahweh (God) and check out some of the postings on Messianic Judaism on this forum. Also check out some messianic sites, I cant tell you any as I am not allowed to. But all you need to type into the search is "Yahshua truth" or "Shabbat of Yahweh", something like that and you will get some great listings of Messianic sites which have some good information.

You are a searcher, you will find your way with prayerful study. Sounds like you are on a path similar to the one I am on from your post. I've just been a believer all my life.

Good luck and may Yahweh give you wisdom of the Spirit.

Just remember this,
Matthew 7:13 Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and THOSE WHO FIND IT ARE FEW.

Shalom and Grace to you from
Bon :)

[muffler dragon]

another thing to read, cathy, is Isaiah 56.

It outlines it rather well.

m.d.

[adamdavid]

Thank you both very much for the explenations! (I believe I got most of it right... wow, good for me ). Question: is Christmas really a pagan holiday?... hmmm... lol, anyway, again I thank you both!
Yup... Christmas is about as pagan as they come ;) First of all, there's no basis for the date whatsoever, except for the fact that it coincides with a pagan festival to something or other (forgive me, I don't remember exactly what festival it is off the top of my head :) ), so when Christianity became the state church of rome, they just tweaked the original festival a bit to 'Christianize' it... The symbols (christmas tree, etc.) are pagan, and the date is way off from when Christ was actually born... Easter's about the same thing (though they did put it at the right time of year ;) )...

That being said, however, I have a different take on holidays than most Messianics (which could be because I'm not messianic... I'm just a christian who's been influenced by some lovely messianics... ;) )... I believe that its okay to celebrate holidays like christmas and easter if you do it for the right reasons... if, on christmas, you really do think about christs birth (not just about how bad aunt bertha's egg nog is...), I believe that Christmas is a good, beautiful thing... I have this take on it because of the fact that when God created the earth, every day was pure and holy... that includes what would have been dec. 25... the only reason 'Christmas' became a pagan thing was because Satan took dec. 25 and messed it up, putting in his own un-godly things... there's nothing evil about a decorated fir tree, a fat old guy giving little kids candy (okay, so that one might be taken oddly in today's culture, but...), or the day of Dec. 25 in and of themselves... they're only evil because we've let satan destroy the purity of so many of God's creations... I think that when we take dec. 25, a day that Satan messed up, and we use it to remind ourselves of the birth of our Saviour, it becomes an act of restoring purity to God's creation (not just being ignorant as many messianics consider most 'Christmas-celebraters'), and it becomes something for us to proudly and loudly do...

Yes, Christmas is a pagan holiday, but there's nothing wrong with celebrating it if you are celebrating the birth of Christ, not the pagan symbols...

Blessings...
AdamDavid

[jamescrousore]

I believe this is called "double dipping" or "riding the fence". The new covenant came from Jesus. The new testament is the main focus of the Christian faith. Jews don't believe that Jesus was the son of God therefore how or why would you practice their belief system? You are making a hybrid religion, not completely adhering to either. Yes the dates of Christian holidays are rooted in Paganism but they were chosen as those dates to celebrate Christ in the Midst of those celebrations. There is no such thing in my book as a Messianic Christian, one must make a choice.

[adamdavid]

I believe this is called "double dipping" or "riding the fence". The new covenant came from Jesus. The new testament is the main focus of the Christian faith. Jews don't believe that Jesus was the son of God therefore how or why would you practice their belief system? You are making a hybrid religion, not completely adhering to either. Yes the dates of Christian holidays are rooted in Paganism but they were chosen as those dates to celebrate Christ in the Midst of those celebrations. There is no such thing in my book as a Messianic Christian, one must make a choice.The goal of the statement I am about to make is not to cause offense, but it might anyways...
You have no idea how ignorant that statement makes you look!
You do realize that the apostles were Jewish, correct? The original christian church was almost completely Jewish. The original reason Y'shua came to earth was to save the Jews, not the goyim (gentiles... :) ) Belief in Y'shua isn't a 'Christian' thing, its the fulfillment of all of Judaism! It fits Judaism perfectly, because thats who it was intended for... To say anything to the contrary is a serious show of ignorance...

(And this is coming from a christian, not a messianic...)

Blessings...
AdamDavid

[jamescrousore]

Just because the Apostles and Jesus were Jewish doesn't make Jews Christian or vice/versa this is not ignorant this is a fact. The Jewish people do not believe in Jesus, they are still awaiting their messiah. You can't have one foot in each camp, that my friend is ignorant.

[adamdavid]

Man, long after Jesus' death, the disciples were still keeping with their Judaism. Not all of Judaism is denying Y'shua as saviour, as you can see from the fact that there are messianics here. Christianity is just a branch of Judaism, really. We didn't just appear out of thin air. We came from Judaism. Whats wrong with staying in tune with the faith that ones faith came from? The Christianity that you practice is entirely different from that which the early church practiced. Theirs was a belief that was simply integrated in to the truths of Judaism, and thats really the way it would be today, were it not for the influences of paganism brought in by man...

[Matrona]

Anyone?:wave:

I keep the Saturday sabbath!

However, since I believe the commemoration of the creation of the world (which is what the sabbath was for) was forever overtaken by the New Creation, which began the Sunday when Christ was risen from the dead, my principal worship service is on Sunday.

[muffler dragon]

I believe this is called "double dipping" or "riding the fence". The new covenant came from Jesus. The new testament is the main focus of the Christian faith. Jews don't believe that Jesus was the son of God therefore how or why would you practice their belief system? You are making a hybrid religion, not completely adhering to either. Yes the dates of Christian holidays are rooted in Paganism but they were chosen as those dates to celebrate Christ in the Midst of those celebrations. There is no such thing in my book as a Messianic Christian, one must make a choice.
You're advocating an approach very similar to Marcion: so I suggest you be careful and really invest the time and energy into understanding 'church' history a little more.

Adamdavid has spoken well of the current and past situation. What you may fail to realize, james, is that the very 'church' you follow now has more than its abundance of church fathers who were rabid anti-semites. Thus, the sentiment you share above is reminiscent of that.

Being a Messianic Jew/Gentile is a matter of trying to live the religion of Y'shua in a manner in which Y'shua lived it. Trying to completely mimic what he was and did.

If you don't want to observe the Sabbath, then that is your right. But to walk in the condemnation that you are within this thread is uncalled for.

m.d.

[Svt4Him]

I believe this is called "double dipping" or "riding the fence". The new covenant came from Jesus. The new testament is the main focus of the Christian faith. Jews don't believe that Jesus was the son of God therefore how or why would you practice their belief system? You are making a hybrid religion, not completely adhering to either. Yes the dates of Christian holidays are rooted in Paganism but they were chosen as those dates to celebrate Christ in the Midst of those celebrations. There is no such thing in my book as a Messianic Christian, one must make a choice.Well I think they are not two different belief systems, so one has the fullness of the gospel, while most 'Christians' choose a grace system and don't worry about the full gospel. Christ came first to the Jews and explained the message to them.

Is this the purpose of the op? What exactly is being asked?

[adamdavid]

Methinks the purpose of the OP was to figure out if there are any Sabbath-keeping christians out here on CF... The thread has gone a little off course, hasn't it? :D
To answer the OP, not I... not anymore... at least for now... I come from a background where the Sabbath was not just 'kept', but abused and turned in to a legalistic rite... Because of that bad experience, I have decided that, at least for a time, I will observe the sabbath as the constant rest available to me through Y'shua, a refreshing rest for which I am most thankful... perhaps some time in the future I will be ready to deal with observing it as a specific time of rest, without letting it become a mere ritual to me, but at this point in time, I dont think I can do that...

Blessings...
AdamDavid

[sakamuyo]

I am a christian who keeps the sabbath, though my version of that is quite different than that of my messianic friends. I work 6 days of the week. One day is set apart for recreation, relaxation, and reflection. It is normally, but not always, Saturday, not because I think there's necessarily anything special about that day, but because that just happens to be the day I find I am most able to keep free from work on a regular basis.

[adamdavid]

I am a christian who keeps the sabbath, though my version of that is quite different than that of my messianic friends. I work 6 days of the week. One day is set apart for recreation, relaxation, and reflection. It is normally, but not always, Saturday, not because I think there's necessarily anything special about that day, but because that just happens to be the day I find I am most able to keep free from work on a regular basis. I like that... a Sabbath that is truely flexible... thats the kind of Sabbath I could handle keeping... :)

[twistedsketch]

The original reason Y'shua came to earth was to save the Jews, not the goyim (gentiles... :) )

I agree with everything else in your post, but watch how you say that.

"He says: 'It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth.'" - Isaiah 49:6

"But I have had God's help to this very day, and so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen-- that the Christ would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to his own people and to the Gentiles." - Acts 26:22-23

"Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith." - Romans 3:29-30


(And this is coming from a christian, not a messianic...)


I know that, so I won't direct this at you. I cannot stand it when any believer refuses to call themselves a Christian because they believe that their convictions are better than mine. This goes to Messianic, Catholics, and everyone else who does that. Not that everybody in those denominations do those things, but I strongly believe we should call ourselves Christians because we all have the same saving faith in the Christ. I don't care if you use the Hebrew name for Him or any other, just don't call yourselves seperate from or better than me, since we all have one and the same saving faith. Romans 14, ending rant now.

As for whether I keep the Sabbath or not, I try to keep busy to avoid temptations that come when I am bored and idle. If I don't, that is when people should start being concerned for me. It is the Lord's Day, after all, not sins-of-the-flesh day.

"One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God." - Romans 14:5-6

[adamdavid]

I agree with everything else in your post, but watch how you say that. :eek: Blast it all... I'm always wording things wrong... I didn't mean that Gentiles weren't in the plan from the beginning (at least I dont think I meant that... it doesnt seem like something I would say... :P ), but rather that Jews were the priority... Jesus makes that clear in Matt. 15:22-28 ~ He was sent for Israel, but he ended up blessing the Gentile woman, too, because of her faith...
He came knowing full well that he would save and bless both Jew and Gentile, but the most important part of that was the Jews, because they were the ones promised the Messiah in the first place, and they are God's chosen...

As for whether I keep the Sabbath or not, I try to keep busy to avoid temptations that come when I am bored and idle. If I don't, that is when people should start being concerned for me. It is the Lord's Day, after all, not sins-of-the-flesh day.Good point... :)

Blessings...
AdamDavid

[muffler dragon]

Dear twisted:

There was only one thing I wanted to address with you. This is not a point of contention, but instead, clarification.

I know that, so I won't direct this at you. I cannot stand it when any believer refuses to call themselves a Christian because they believe that their convictions are better than mine. This goes to Messianic, Catholics, and everyone else who does that. Not that everybody in those denominations do those things, but I strongly believe we should call ourselves Christians because we all have the same saving faith in the Christ. I don't care if you use the Hebrew name for Him or any other, just don't call yourselves seperate from or better than me, since we all have one and the same saving faith. Romans 14, ending rant now.

This may sound like I am about to play semantics, but believe me, it is anything but.

I don't care what you direction or path of faith takes you in. I will not judge you by it; just as I expect the same back. However, I do want you to know that there is a vast difference between 'christianity' and Judaism. I am a Messianic Gentile believer who is studying Judaism. I do not think I am better than you, but I will not refer to myself as a 'christian' any longer due to what I have learned about the history of the 'christian' church. This is a rabbit trail in this thread, so I shall concede to the rest of the posters. But I wanted you to know where I am coming from.

Btw: in regards to your use of the Romans 14:5-6 verse. The reason Sha'ul brought this up was because different sects of Judaism had different calendars they went by. Because of this a group (such as the Essenes) believed that they were celebrating the true holidays unto G-d and all others were wrong. This had nothing whatsoever to do with the Sabbath.

Shalom,

m.d.

[queenm04]

I am a born again Christian. I feel humbled to have gotten a revelation of the Sabbath day and Sabbath Keeping. I try by all means to observe the Sabbath. I don’t speak in tongues. Because I believe speaking in tongues is a gift. Is there such a community out there?

[Svt4Him]

http://www.christianforums.com/t730172

[twistedsketch]

Dear twisted:

There was only one thing I wanted to address with you. This is not a point of contention, but instead, clarification.



This may sound like I am about to play semantics, but believe me, it is anything but.

I don't care what you direction or path of faith takes you in. I will not judge you by it; just as I expect the same back. However, I do want you to know that there is a vast difference between 'christianity' and Judaism. I am a Messianic Gentile believer who is studying Judaism. I do not think I am better than you, but I will not refer to myself as a 'christian' any longer due to what I have learned about the history of the 'christian' church. This is a rabbit trail in this thread, so I shall concede to the rest of the posters. But I wanted you to know where I am coming from.

OK, you've made that clear, but not calling yourself a Christian implies the holier-than-thou attitude or worse, the poison of the Judaizers, which Paul railed against in his letters. It implies that Jewish (or in this case, Messianic) believers are to be seperate from Gentile believers, which is against Ephesians 2:11-22. That said, please don't misrepresent yourself. You had me thinking that you considered my convictions and liberty in Christ to be heathen.

"Christian" itself means "little Christ" which should be a badge of honor for anyone to wear, regardless of what the church has done. I've talked to belivers who don't like that label because of the Crusades and whatnot. I say wear the label and clarify the standard by being Christlike. I respect the Jewish culture, and as long as you consider saving faith in Christ to be enough to save you (unlike the Judaizers) and that Jewish and Gentile believers are equal in God's sight, I don't really have a problem.


Btw: in regards to your use of the Romans 14:5-6 verse. The reason Sha'ul brought this up was because different sects of Judaism had different calendars they went by. Because of this a group (such as the Essenes) believed that they were celebrating the true holidays unto G-d and all others were wrong. This had nothing whatsoever to do with the Sabbath.
m.d.

There are other verses I use to justify my position, but that's not a discussion for this thread. PM me if you really want to know them.

[PaladinGirl]

Thank you both very much for the explenations! (I believe I got most of it right... wow, good for me ^_^). Question: is Christmas really a pagan holiday?... hmmm... lol, anyway, again I thank you both!
Christmas has it's roots in Paganism. Take a look at this page for more information:

http://www.holidays.net/christmas/story.htm

[cygnusx1]

I believe that the Sabbath was a command for good (they all were ) and concerning how it now pertains , mmmmmmmmm , I have looked at the subject and I favour the rest from work that is symbolic of the Christian who trust in God for everything not trying to merit God's forgiveness , friendship , approval by Law , by works of the Law , of which the sabbath was most certainly a case in point.


I think we need to spend time with God. However , the sabbath as a rest day (saturday or Sunday ) I believe is missing the point , I believe the sabbath is a shadow of the rest of God , which we must strive to enter. see Hebrews :wave:

[muffler dragon]

Dear twisted:

I can come back and say the exact same to you: carrying the moniker of 'christian' implies a holier-than-thou attitude. One in which you have something the proper way that it SHOULD be, and thus all others have it wrong.

It's a shame that you have very little of an idea as to what exactly Sha'ul rallied against. He was very outspoken (just as Y'shua was) against Oral Torah being used as a burden upon the laypeople. Now, that's a completely different thread for a different time.

If you inferred that I think that you are heathen, then you read too much into more than just Scripture. As I said in my previous post, I don't care what you determine to follow. I won't judge a person upon that, but you have done the exact opposite. You have called me "holier than thou", a Judaizer, someone that Paul rallied against and so on. This is all opinion without substantiation. People who express the ideas that you have presented seem to forget a few key things:

1) Y'shua was a Jew.
2) Sha'ul was a Jew.
3) They both loved and lived the Torah.
4) They never became anything other than Jewish.

And then you label me for trying to be more like my Elohim (L-rd) Y'shua.

As you apparently didn't read my post about the background to the word 'christian' and the word Nazarene or even The Way; I'm going to go ahead and drop it, because you're apparently set on only listening to yourself.

Now, I'm going to say somethings that are really going to set you off, but since you have set conditions upon my conduct with this statement, I feel it is in my best interest to open it all the way up:

I respect the Jewish culture, and as long as you consider saving faith in Christ to be enough to save you (unlike the Judaizers) and that Jewish and Gentile believers are equal in God's sight, I don't really have a problem.

With this statement, you apparently have NO respect for the Jewish culture. You neither understand it nor endorse it as a religion that G-d would deem worthy of respect. I can read between the lines of your statement and I see your heart clearly just with all you've shown.

1) Saving faith in Christ: apparently you have never even read the Tanakh (OT). Christ came to renew the marriage covenant between G-d and Israel. That's being discussed in General Theology under New Covenant. The Torah-observant and obedient Jew never needed and does not need salvation.

1 Samuel 15
22 Samuel said,
"(1) Has the LORD as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
As in obeying the voice of the LORD?
Behold, (2) to obey is better than sacrifice,
And to heed than the fat of rams.

Jeremiah 7
22 "For I did not (1) speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.
23 "But this is what I commanded them, saying, '(2) Obey My voice, and (3) I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may (4) be well with you.'

Hosea 6
6
For (1) I delight in loyalty (2) rather than sacrifice,
And in the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

Y'shua even said as much in the gospels.

Jews and Gentiles are equal in G-d's sight, BUT each has a separate and distinct calling in the will and plan of G-d. This is something that many, many 'christians' tend to overlook.

As far as validation for your position, I don't need any. I know the direction you intend to go in. But that doesn't relinquish the fact that I am correct on why the distinction between days was stated.

Shalom,

m.d.

[Iosias]

This is a topic which I have come across recently. I will base my post on The Bible Speaks by W. L. Emmerson.

Genesis 2:2, 3 "And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made."

As we can see the Sabbath was instituted prior to the giving of the Law. It is the "most ancient institution" commemorating "the work of God as Creator, Preserver, Benfactor and Redeemer". Seth Williston states "The weekly Sabbath is a very early institution. It was appointed and observed the very first week of time. It is no part of the law of ceremonies, which law was occasioned by the entrance of sin; for the Sabbath was established before sin had entered and would have been obligatory on Adam and his offspring if sin has not been known among them."

Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"

"The ceremonial sabbaths are here rightly classed with the "meats" and "drinks,"...of the ceremonial system. They were part of the "handwriting of ordinances" (Col 2:14), "the law of commanments...in ordinances" (Eph 2:15) which pointed forward to the cross, and expired at the cross. The seventh-day Sabbath of the moral law, was instituted at creation before sin cast its dark shadow over the world; this was not abrogated at the cross."

Whilst there is no evidence of Sunday observance before or after the ascension, how did the apostles invariably occupy themselves on the Sabbath?
Acts 16
13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
Acts 17
2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Which day did the converted Gentiles also observe?
Acts 13
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

[Iosias]

If I may post a follow up post...I believe we should observe the Sabbath on Saturday and commemorate Christ Jesus on the Sunday:

"the last day of the week was strictly kept in connection with that of the first day for a long time afetr the overthrow of the temple and its worship." "Down even to the fifth century the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church, but with a rigour and solemnity gradually diminishing until it was wholly dicontinued."--- Lyman Coleman

[Warrior Poet]

Sabbath is a day of spirtual rest... pick the best and most approproate day of the week for yourself.... as long as it is recognized as such.
On the 7th day God rested.... this is the "representation" of the Sabbath yes? Why did God need to rest was he tired or worn out?

Warrior Poet

[Bon]

Sabbath is a day of spirtual rest... pick the best and most approproate day of the week for yourself.... as long as it is recognized as such.
On the 7th day God rested.... this is the "representation" of the Sabbath yes? Why did God need to rest was he tired or worn out?

Warrior Poet

The Sabbath is a day to refrain from all the things that we do on the other 6 days.

To stop and reflect, to give thanks and worship to our Creator and Heavenly Father and to enjoy the fruits of our labours.

I would doubt that God was tired or worn out, but He "rested from all his work which he had done in creation." GEN 2:3.
I would imagine it was to enjoy and look at what He had done.

He blessed the 7th day and hallowed it.
Mark 2:27 And Yahshua (Jesus) said "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath...

God made it for us...to give us rest and the time to spend with Him.

God chose only "one" day and that was the "seventh"...not the first or the third or any other.
Who are we to say "pick the best and most appropriate day for yourselves"?
How can we change it? HOW in the world dare we opose God's command?
Are we greater than Him? Is it OK to disregard His sabbath and choose another for our convenience?

I don't think so!

With thanks from Bon :)

[Crispie]

If you keep the sabbath, then you are following laws from the Old Covenant, and remember that that covenant is no more, all laws of Judaism is no more, and a new covenant with the Law of God written on the minds and hearts of men are the ones we Christians follow today. Hebrews is excellent for better understanding the 2 covanants and changes and fulfillments of both.

[Crispie]

And by rest it meant that God ceased to work, he didnt actually "rest up" to gain back energy, but merely stopped his work for a day.

[muffler dragon]

If you keep the sabbath, then you are following laws from the Old Covenant, and remember that that covenant is no more, all laws of Judaism is no more, and a new covenant with the Law of God written on the minds and hearts of men are the ones we Christians follow today. Hebrews is excellent for better understanding the 2 covanants and changes and fulfillments of both.
And yet, you'd still be wrong.

Your understanding of covenants, the Torah, Judaism, and how it is today are vastly naive in a number of ways. Do we want to get into on this thread? Not really, because I hate to rabbit trail. But I encourage you to evaluate the Word of G-d through Jewish eyes. You might be able to understand a little better.

As I advocate of people I agree and disagree with: if you are going to present ideas and flagrant statements as you have above, then please provide substantiated Scriptural proof from both the New AND Old Testaments. That's the only way to have a sure-fire dogma or doctrine.

Shalom,

m.d.

[muffler dragon]

And by rest it meant that God ceased to work, he didnt actually "rest up" to gain back energy, but merely stopped his work for a day.
How about this as an answer?:

He rested and used a seven-day week as a model. Ever consider that possibility?

m.d.

[Warrior Poet]

The Sabbath is a day to refrain from all the things that we do on the other 6 days.

To stop and reflect, to give thanks and worship to our Creator and Heavenly Father and to enjoy the fruits of our labours.

I would doubt that God was tired or worn out, but He "rested from all his work which he had done in creation." GEN 2:3.
I would imagine it was to enjoy and look at what He had done.

He blessed the 7th day and hallowed it.
Mark 2:27 And Yahshua (Jesus) said "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath...

God made it for us...to give us rest and the time to spend with Him.

God chose only "one" day and that was the "seventh"...not the first or the third or any other.
Who are we to say "pick the best and most appropriate day for yourselves"?
How can we change it? HOW in the world dare we opose God's command?
Are we greater than Him? Is it OK to disregard His sabbath and choose another for our convenience?

I don't think so!

With thanks from Bon :)

Hmmmm... ok in the same scrpiture you quoted it talks about David feeding those who were hungry by eating the sacred bread that only the priets where to eat. Jesus point.... this sacred bread was nothing more then bread and should be given to those that need it.... those that are hungry, as all saw unlawful.... He saw as "good"
I have no clue why you felt you needed to cut the verse short with a "....." but I will take the liberty to finish since I personly find it highly disrespectful to half-heartedly quote Jesus wether it deviated from your point or not. And Matthew 12 covers this much more in depth.

(finishing the Quote from Mark)
27Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

So if he is still Lord on the Sabbath then what day is it we observe... for even on the Sabbath I am to do Gods work... if he never stops being Lord I never stop being a believer. I find a large hole in your thought pattern.....The "other 6 days" starting at what day? I missed where God called Sunday or Saturday the Sabbath.... I am very curious to what scripture brought you to this conclusion. If as you stated it is a day to reflect the "fruits of our labor" What say you when I tell you I work on the Sabbath and take my "day off' (which varies) as the Sabbath... the day I get to rest on, just as God did on His seventh day of work. You are right He gave us a day.... not a specific day other then the seventh day of work. Think about it if the you truly believe in the reason you gave above the day is inconsiquential. Jesus worked on the Sabbath over and over.... questioned over and over for doing just that... on what all say was the Sabbath. He was still Lord on the Sabbath..... so what day did Christ enter His rest.... Did he ever? Also why did Christ allow his disciples to "work" on the Sabbath as well? As it is "lawful" to do good on the Sabbath, though once again as Christ puts it... what of the priest that work on the Sabbath... what day do they enter in "rest"?... Obviously not on the Sabbath.

The pastor of my church takes Mondays "off".... as his day of rest for he must work on the so called Sabbath...... IMO thats the right idea.

Now Hebrews 4 speaks directly about entering this rest and more so those who don't...... he also seems to be implying that He may prevent some from entering that rest as well..... his seventh day was "Today"... the day people heard this voice. While you may feel comfortable boxing up God into what WE see as a week as a day .... I do not.

Hebrews 4 also says

4And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work." 5 And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest."

Unless you have a better explaination it seems as though Gods work has been finished.... i see this "work" as physical labor. God spiritually rested on the seventh day....... we are called to enter this rest no doubt... but it is Today that we enter it........ I cant find the day Saturday or Sunday in my bible as being the Sabbath perhaps yours does..... it specifically states the 7th day of work ....... if so i am more then open to changing my view and I will stand corrected. Also somewhat interested where God instituted the calendar we use today.

Perhaps you can shed some light on that for me Bon.

Warrior Poet

[Bon]

And yet, you'd still be wrong.

Your understanding of covenants, the Torah, Judaism, and how it is today are vastly naive in a number of ways. Do we want to get into on this thread? Not really, because I hate to rabbit trail. But I encourage you to evaluate the Word of G-d through Jewish eyes. You might be able to understand a little better.

As I advocate of people I agree and disagree with: if you are going to present ideas and flagrant statements as you have above, then please provide substantiated Scriptural proof from both the New AND Old Testaments. That's the only way to have a sure-fire dogma or doctrine.

Shalom,

m.d.

I'm with you on this one md.
I was just reading Crispies post and was thinking, will I or wont I. :yawn:
And then I read your post and you basically said just what I was thinking.

Crispie, if you are interested in fnding out what we Messianics believe about the Laws of God check out MJ forum. You'll find loads of scriptures to back up our beliefs that the Laws of God are indeed still in place today.
I can get you started with one:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. (has heaven and earth passed away yet?)

With thanks from Bon

[Iosias]

If you keep the sabbath, then you are following laws from the Old Covenant, and remember that that covenant is no more, all laws of Judaism is no more, and a new covenant with the Law of God written on the minds and hearts of men are the ones we Christians follow today. Hebrews is excellent for better understanding the 2 covanants and changes and fulfillments of both.
I will repost my post here, this time try to read it :) :

Genesis 2:2, 3 "And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made."

As we can see the Sabbath was instituted prior to the giving of the Law. It is the "most ancient institution" commemorating "the work of God as Creator, Preserver, Benfactor and Redeemer". Seth Williston states "The weekly Sabbath is a very early institution. It was appointed and observed the very first week of time. It is no part of the law of ceremonies, which law was occasioned by the entrance of sin; for the Sabbath was established before sin had entered and would have been obligatory on Adam and his offspring if sin has not been known among them."

Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"

"The ceremonial sabbaths are here rightly classed with the "meats" and "drinks,"...of the ceremonial system. They were part of the "handwriting of ordinances" (Col 2:14), "the law of commanments...in ordinances" (Eph 2:15) which pointed forward to the cross, and expired at the cross. The seventh-day Sabbath of the moral law, was instituted at creation before sin cast its dark shadow over the world; this was not abrogated at the cross."

[Crispie]

How about this as an answer?:

He rested and used a seven-day week as a model. Ever consider that possibility?

m.d.

I was responding to the person that said God didnt need to rest, yeah he doesnt to rest but he did, he ceased to work. I agree fully that he did it in representation of what Jews are to do, but I wasnt even talking about that.

[Crispie]

Hebrews 8
13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

New Covenant, no longer are we to obey the Old one.

Hebrews 10
15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds."

The laws are now written upon our minds and hearts, these new laws of the new Covenant.

Hebrews 10
1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

Once again, the Old Testament law is only for the Old Covenant, now that we follow a new Covenant we have the new Covenant law to follow, which is written upon our minds and hearts.

[Iosias]

New Covenant, no longer are we to obey the Old one.
Could you shew me how the church was under the Old Covenant?

[muffler dragon]

New Covenant, no longer are we to obey the Old one.



The laws are now written upon our minds and hearts, these new laws of the new Covenant.



Once again, the Old Testament law is only for the Old Covenant, now that we follow a new Covenant we have the new Covenant law to follow, which is written upon our minds and hearts.
And what exactly are those laws, Crispie?

What laws would a Jew be talking about?

The answer: the Torah.

Is the Torah written upon your heart? Are you so ingratiated in your walk with G-d that you no longer need to study the Word of G-d? That is what this portion of the covenant is addressing. If you answer 'no' to either of these questions, then it means that this has not been fulfilled yet.

I understand where you're coming from. I really do, but in all honesty, it's simply a 'christianizing' of the way things can be understood. Through Jewish eyes, as even the author of Hebrews would be taken, there is so much more that opens up and gives explanation.

You cannot expound to believe in a doctrine based solely on the New Testament; it just won't be a firm foundation.

Shalom,

m.d.

[queenm04]

New Covenant, no longer are we to obey the Old one.



The laws are now written upon our minds and hearts, these new laws of the new Covenant.



Once again, the Old Testament law is only for the Old Covenant, now that we follow a new Covenant we have the new Covenant law to follow, which is written upon our minds and hearts.Is'nt this a cool quoute?

'The old testament is the new testament concealed, and the new testament is the old testament revealed'

[queenm04]

I was responding to the person that said God didnt need to rest, yeah he doesnt to rest but he did, he ceased to work. I agree fully that he did it in representation of what Jews are to do, but I wasnt even talking about that.
Hi Crispie, for more info about this subject, please refer to these forums under Exposition and bible study.

Has the day of worship changed after all?
http://www.christianforums.com/t708160

The True Sabbath Day
http://www.christianforums.com/t707840

[Crispie]

Hebrews 8
13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Doesnt anyone realize that the Old Covanant is now obsolete JUST LIKE THE NT SAYS. We are to follow the new covenant, which was started by the Blood of Christ. It doesnt say that the Old Laws are now in our mind and hearts, but that the Old laws are no more, and that a new covanant and laws have begun. Read the book of Hebrew if you dont believe me. At least read Hebrews chapter 8, fully explains how a new covanant with better laws has come, and that the old one is no more.

[muffler dragon]

Hebrews 8
13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Doesnt anyone realize that the Old Covanant is now obsolete JUST LIKE THE NT SAYS. We are to follow the new covenant, which was started by the Blood of Christ. It doesnt say that the Old Laws are now in our mind and hearts, but that the Old laws are no more, and that a new covanant and laws have begun. Read the book of Hebrew if you dont believe me. At least read Hebrews chapter 8, fully explains how a new covanant with better laws has come, and that the old one is no more.
And here, you have very little idea as to what the 'new' covenant really is.

It's a renewing of the marriage covenant between G-d and Israel. See Jeremiah 31.

Furthermore, let's look at the context of your Hebrews 8

A New Covenant

7 For (16) if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8 For finding fault with them, He says,
"(17) BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT (18) A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9
(19) NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10
"(20) FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM (21) ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11
"(22) AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'
FOR (23) ALL WILL KNOW ME,
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12
"(24) FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
(25) AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."
13 When He said, "(26) A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. (27) But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

As I said before, please read Jeremiah 31, as this is what is being discussed here.

Crispie, I implore you to do more research into this situation. You are taking singular verses at face value and not looking at the depth.

Shalom,

m.d.

[Crispie]

Hebrews 10

1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.


9Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second.

[Iosias]

Hebrews 10

1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.


9Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second.
Question: How can the Sabbath be abolished by the fulfilment of the law when the Sabbath was instituted before the law?

Question: Shew me how the church was under the Old Covenant?

[muffler dragon]

Hebrews 10

1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.


9Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second.
Are you going to address anything that is brought up to you, Crispie? Or are you just going to continue to spam away with random verses out of context?

m.d.

[Crispie]

Colossians 2

13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,[1 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=Col+2%3A13-17&version=NIV#footnote_765846446_1)] God made you[2 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=Col+2%3A13-17&version=NIV#footnote_765846446_2)] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[3 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=Col+2%3A13-17&version=NIV#footnote_765846446_3)]
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

[sakamuyo]

C'mon, peeps. This is getting out of hand. Wasn't this thread a question of who keeps a sabbath, not a debate over the purpose and role of the Old Testament?

[Peguero]

Hello adamdavid- ? What do you think about Jeremiah 31:31,32, It talks about the new covenant. Is the new covenant the New Law? 1. LOVE GOD with all the heart of you, with all the soul of you, and with all the passion of you. 2. Love your brethen as you love yourself. Hebrew 8:13 says that the old covenant was made obsolete. Galatians 3:24,25 says the law was our tutor to bring us to yeshua, tha we might be justified by faith., but after has come, we are no longer under a tutor. If god would no longer would remember our sins, then are you still under the old covenant the holy law of god. By the way I keep the sabbath, but because i choose to worship him who rested after the creation. Please write back on this issue. Thank you

[Peguero]

I keep the Sabbath, because i choose to worship on that day rather than Sunday.

[Bon]

Colossians 2

13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,[1 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=Col+2%3A13-17&version=NIV#footnote_765846446_1)] God made you[2 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=Col+2%3A13-17&version=NIV#footnote_765846446_2)] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[3 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=Col+2%3A13-17&version=NIV#footnote_765846446_3)]
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Crispie, (gotta get the context first)
read verse 8: Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceipt and the TRADITIONS OF MEN, , AFTER THE RUDIMENTS OF THE WORLD, AND NOT AFTER CHRIST.

THAT is what the rest of the chapter is talking about, and that is what was nailed to the cross... the TRADITIONS OF MEN (a therefore our sins), NOT the LAWS of GOD.

with thanks Bon :)

[muffler dragon]

Hello adamdavid- ? What do you think about Jeremiah 31:31,32, It talks about the new covenant. Is the new covenant the New Law? 1. LOVE GOD with all the heart of you, with all the soul of you, and with all the passion of you. 2. Love your brethen as you love yourself. Hebrew 8:13 says that the old covenant was made obsolete. Galatians 3:24,25 says the law was our tutor to bring us to yeshua, tha we might be justified by faith., but after has come, we are no longer under a tutor. If god would no longer would remember our sins, then are you still under the old covenant the holy law of god. By the way I keep the sabbath, but because i choose to worship him who rested after the creation. Please write back on this issue. Thank you
Peguero:

The answer to your question is, "No".

Jeremiah 31
A New Covenant

27 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will (69) sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and with the seed of beast.
28 "As I have (70) watched over them to (71) pluck up, to break down, to overthrow, to destroy and to bring disaster, so I will watch over them to (72) build and to plant," declares the LORD.
29
"In those days they will not say again,
'(73) The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children's teeth are set on edge.'
30 "But (74) everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge.
31 "(75) Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a (76) new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the (77) covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I (78) took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My (79) covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.
33 "But (80) this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "(81) I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and (82) I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 "They will (83) not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all (84) know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will (85) forgive their iniquity, and their (86) sin I will remember no more."
35
Thus says the LORD,
Who (87) gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who (88) stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
(89) The LORD of hosts is His name:
36
"(90) If this fixed order departs
From before Me," declares the LORD,
"Then the offspring of Israel also will (91) cease
From being a nation before Me forever."
37 Thus says the LORD,
"(92) If the heavens above can be measured
And the foundations of the earth searched out below,
Then I will also (93) cast off all the offspring of Israel
For all that they have done," declares the LORD.
38 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when the (94) city will be rebuilt for the LORD from the (95) Tower of Hananel to the (96) Corner Gate.
39 "The (97) measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah.
40 "And (98) the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook (99) Kidron, to the corner of the (100) Horse Gate toward the east, shall be (101) holy to the LORD; it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever."

Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 are both dealing with a 'renewing' of the marriage covenant between G-d and Israel (note the highlighted sections above). This has nothing to do with the gentiles.

Shalom,

m.d.

[muffler dragon]

Colossians 2

13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,[1 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=Col+2%3A13-17&version=NIV#footnote_765846446_1)] God made you[2 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=Col+2%3A13-17&version=NIV#footnote_765846446_2)] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[3 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=Col+2%3A13-17&version=NIV#footnote_765846446_3)]
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
Once AGAIN, Crispie, you're not looking at Scripture as a whole.

You really, really, really need to stop just posting this stuff without any substantiation.

Furthermore, from studying Jewish history (which you have not done), you would note that there were different sects within Judaism. These sects would hold different dates for festivals and days. Because they did this, each group thought that they had the 'correct' day and everyone else was wrong. This is why Sha'ul is saying don't judge someone because of the days that you celebrate.

m.d.

[Bon]

Once AGAIN, Crispie, you're not looking at Scripture as a whole.

You really, really, really need to stop just posting this stuff without any substantiation.

m.d.

Yes m.d. see my post just before your second to last one.

About verse 8 of chapter 2....

All christians use this text to 'try' to prove that the Laws of Yahweh were nailed to the cross, ALWAYS fail to read it in the context of the whole chapter and in harmony with the scriptures in total.

with thanks from Bon

[Iosias]

Are you going to address anything that is brought up to you, Crispie? Or are you just going to continue to spam away with random verses out of context?

m.d.
I would say most definitely the latter :sigh:

[Crispie]

http://www.bible.ca/7-Col2-14-16.htm


Try that site, if you still dont understand what they meant. This is a good page, though Im not sure about the rest of the site. Try not to be ignorent of what the Lord said to us through Paul.

[Iosias]

http://www.bible.ca/7-Col2-14-16.htm


Try that site, if you still dont understand what they meant. This is a good page, though Im not sure about the rest of the site. Try not to be ignorent of what the Lord said to us through Paul.
Genesis 2:2, 3 "And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made."

As we can see the Sabbath was instituted prior to the giving of the Law. It is the "most ancient institution" commemorating "the work of God as Creator, Preserver, Benfactor and Redeemer". Seth Williston states "The weekly Sabbath is a very early institution. It was appointed and observed the very first week of time. It is no part of the law of ceremonies, which law was occasioned by the entrance of sin; for the Sabbath was established before sin had entered and would have been obligatory on Adam and his offspring if sin has not been known among them."

Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"

"The ceremonial sabbaths are here rightly classed with the "meats" and "drinks,"...of the ceremonial system. They were part of the "handwriting of ordinances" (Col 2:14), "the law of commanments...in ordinances" (Eph 2:15) which pointed forward to the cross, and expired at the cross. The seventh-day Sabbath of the moral law, was instituted at creation before sin cast its dark shadow over the world; this was not abrogated at the cross."

So how could the Sabbath be abolished by the fulfilment of the law if the sabbath was ordained Holy prior to the law?

[muffler dragon]

http://www.bible.ca/7-Col2-14-16.htm


Try that site, if you still dont understand what they meant. This is a good page, though Im not sure about the rest of the site. Try not to be ignorent of what the Lord said to us through Paul.
How about this consideration?:

Try not to be ignorant of what is stated in the remaining 75% of the Bible. I have asked you for one piece of substantial evidence from the Old Testament, but yet you rebuff it with silence.

Who's reading into what, Crispie? You've got a case based on letters of commentary that were written to help people understand the Tanakh (OT). Do you not realize that?

No one in disagreement with you is devaluing what Sha'ul wrote. It's a matter of understanding why he wrote it, to whom, what the context is and so on. You have addressed none of that and simply given singular portions of Scripture that cannot hang on their own.

I suggest you just hang up on this cause that you have not justified. If you can't defend something as a doctrine, state it simply as an opinion. That is a satisfactory thing to consider. Otherwise, you are not going to win this argument.

Shalom,

m.d.

[Warrior Poet]

Furthermore, from studying Jewish history (which you have not done), you would note that there were different sects within Judaism. These sects would hold different dates for festivals and days. Because they did this, each group thought that they had the 'correct' day and everyone else was wrong. This is why Sha'ul is saying don't judge someone because of the days that you celebrate

Curious as to what sect you belong or would belong to then. And curious to why you believe your sect to be the right one. I find humor in the last sentance since its you are supposedly "winning" this argument. Perhaps being a Jew speration of Gentiles becomes part of who you are.*shrug*

Also Crispie I would venture to guess is a views himself as a Gentile as well.... who were in the OT very looked down on by God and His people..... we as a group have no references to find by anymeans unless we ned be reminded how horrible we were. Gentiles only have the NT its where we got "grafted", and we dont take the NT for granted because of this. I am not saying the OT is to be done away with by any means but it, at least as people seem to hammer away here, it was intended for a completely different group and set of people. Gentiles as a whole never lived under the Law in the OT, hence why they were referred to as enemies many times over..... I did not have the luxery to be born into Jewish Law and heritage.... for I am and will forever be a Gentile...nothing more.... and by my own choice possibly less.

Warrior Poet

[muffler dragon]

Dear Warrior Poet:

Nothing like taking all that I have said out of context. My statement that you quote is to give context and clarification as to why Sha'ul was even stating what he did in the first place.

As for me, I am a Messianic gentile believer. I've never made a claim as far as being the right sect of anything. Go back and read what I have written.

Also Crispie I would venture to guess is a views himself as a Gentile as well....

I don't care what Crispie considers himself to be. My contention is that he promotes singular passages of Scripture to try to support his ideas. He provides no defense for anything that he presents. It's all a matter of here's a verse, there's a verse. He doesn't take into consideration the context, the history, the audience or anything else. This is the height of eisegesis of Scripture.

who were in the OT very looked down on by God and His people.....

And yet another unsubstantiated claim. The care of love to foreigners is quite impressive in the Tanakh. Read Isaiah 56, the story of Ruth, the story of Rahab, and the other passages in the Tanakh where G-d commands the Israelites to be kind to the foreigner, because they were once a foreigner in Egypt. There is a huge difference between those who worship pagan G-ds and those who are gentiles: keep that in mind.

we as a group have no references to find by anymeans unless we ned be reminded how horrible we were. Gentiles only have the NT its where we got "grafted", and we dont take the NT for granted because of this. I am not saying the OT is to be done away with by any means but it, at least as people seem to hammer away here, it was intended for a completely different group and set of people. Gentiles as a whole never lived under the Law in the OT, hence why they were referred to as enemies many times over..... I did not have the luxery to be born into Jewish Law and heritage.... for I am and will forever be a Gentile...nothing more.... and by my own choice possibly less.

Warrior Poet

Have you ever read the Tanakh? I am beginning to wonder by these statements that you are making.

I wanted to save this part for last:

I find humor in the last sentance since its you are supposedly "winning" this argument.

I can't help but win this argument as it stands right now with Crispie. Do you want to know why? Because he hasn't presented anything in defense of his belief. For each piece or portion of Scripture that he has presented, I have provided the background, context, audience, purpose and so forth. I have then shown him why his Scripture usage is lacking. He comes back with nothing of substance. I can take portions of Scripture and singular verses all day and draw a number of different conclusions from them. How are we to tell what is correct? By comparing it with Scripture. What was Scripture to Sha'ul and Y'shua? It was the Tanakh. The Tanakh, and the Torah more importantly, is our standard by which to go by. However, you discard this notion, because somehow the NT has mystically superceded all that G-d has shown previously.

Perhaps being a Jew speration of Gentiles becomes part of who you are.*shrug*

As stated above, I am a Messianic gentile believer in G-d. Your insinuation in this statement is unfair and prejudicial. I have not attacked anyone personally in this thread and have never done so to Crispie or you. I resent this remark, and the assumptions you are making about me. I have made bold statements about what I assume to be the level of learning that Crispie has regarding the Tanakh and I will do the same about you. Why is that? Because you show a lack of understanding in it. Even when I was a 'christian' I still had read through the entire Word enough to understand that G-d loves everyone.

What more can I say? Not much, except this: substantiate your claims or state that they are an opinion. I will not attack an argument or thought if someone states that it just happens to be what they think it means. If they assert it as fact, then they had better be prepared to defend it. If this is something that you and Crispie cannot handle, then maybe doctrinal forums are not the best area to congregate.

Shalom,

m.d.

[Crispie]

Can you give any verses talking of how honoring the Sabbath was a law before the law of Moses?

[muffler dragon]

Can you give any verses talking of how honoring the Sabbath was a law before the law of Moses?
I don't know who you're addressing, but AV 1611 did this very thing above.

At the same time, I would like to ask: "Why are you so concerned whether 'honoring' the Sabbath is a law or not?" Can people not just honor it, because G-d values it so highly. Remember this: you were the one who came into this thread saying that it is a law, the law has been done away, and so on. There was no contention in the OP about whether the Sabbath is a law or not. The OP just asked if anyone observed it. Do you see the distinction I am making?

Shalom,

m.d.

[Crispie]

These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

If things such as the Sabbath are a shadow of things to come,


14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

and it was canceled on the cross, how can it still be a law we must follow in the new covenant?

[Nater_Tater]

I haven't been keeping the Sabath for the past three years, but that is about to change. I quit my job because I was working every sunday, despite my request to not work on Sunday. So I prayed and asked God to help me find a new job....and now I'm working at a bank..and since banks are closed on Sunday, I will be able to keep the Sabath now.

[muffler dragon]

Crispie:

I am going to show you something that you can accept or deny: to me, it matters not which you choose, but I want you to see it nonetheless.

Colossians 2
1I want you to know how much I am struggling for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally. 2My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. 5For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how orderly you are and how firm your faith in Christ is. 6So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, 7rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.
8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[1] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,[2] God made you[3] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[4]
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

Do you know what all of these things have in common? None of them is discussing the Torah. Not one. It may appear that way because of commonality of terms, but it is not the case.

Let's look at what Sha'ul says about the Torah:

Romans 7
12 (1) So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

You need to go back to the time that this is written, the audience, the purpose, the context, as I have stated over and over and over again. Then you will see what Sha'ul is talking about. This is a discussion much like Y'shua had regarding the washing of utensils in eating. It has to do with Halacha (Oral Torah). This set of regulations had become burdensome on the laypeople.

This is entirely too much to go into for a tiny thread such as this. But I assure you that this discussion is not a dismissal of the Torah.

m.d.

[queenm04]

A friend of mine, who went to a Jewish university and has a non-Jewish grandfather who founded an orthodox church taught me these.

That Where ever there is ‘I am the Lord", or ‘Thus says the Lord’, God Himself has signed, put His Own signature. The 10 commandments do not only begin with the phrase ‘I am the Lord Your God, (God’s signature), but were written by the finger of God Himself. So bear that in mind all the time.
He also taught me that God is a jealous God. That the first 6 verses, in Exodus 20, God talks only about Himself.

I am the Lord Your God
You shall have no other gods before me
You shall not make for your self any graven images, or any likeness of anything that is heaven above
You shall not bow down yourself unto them
You shall not take the name of the Lord in vain
Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy

[queenm04]

These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.If things such as the Sabbath are a shadow of things to come,
14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

and it was canceled on the cross, how can it still be a law we must follow in the new covenant?
God commanded Moses to put the Ten Commandments in the ‘Ark of the Covenant’ (together with the Manna and Aaron’s rod that budded). Now the Ark, was put in the Holy of Holies of the Temple. Not in the Outer court or in the Holy place.

John, while in exile at Patmos, saw a vision of the things to come, The new heaven, the new earth, Judgement day, etc. and wrote the book of Revelations. In Rev 11:19, He sees the Ark. Remember also, That the tabernacle of Moses later being called the Temple of Solomon, Has as its model, the heavenly one. It was patterned after the heavenly one.God took Moses to Mount Sinai, to show Him the pattern.(Gave detailed specifications on the colours, numbers, etc that should be used) From Exodus 25:8

and repeatedly instructed Him to construct it according to the pattern He showed Him on the mount.

‘The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed’

[Bon]

These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

If things such as the Sabbath are a shadow of things to come,


14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

and it was canceled on the cross, how can it still be a law we must follow in the new covenant?


Get this Crispie,

There is one very interesting word in that verse you quoted.

"ARE"
Now read it again and think VERY carefully about it as you do.

These ARE a shadow of the things that were to come...

NOT WERE but ARE.

It is speaking of these things in the present tense which means that they were still applicable then just as they are today and will be in the Kingdom of God.

OK now a little background info. If you will be bothered to read it thoughtfully.

Paul wrote to the Colossians while he was imprisoned in Rome after learning of a raid on the group by Jewish Gnostics known as the Essenes.

What the Essenes did was send recruiters to look for proselytes as their asceticism required new converts so the sect would not die out.

The matters addressed in the epistle were in reference to the realitites of Essene Gnosticism not the demands of Torah nor halakhic tradions of the Pharisees.

Now the Essenes, like the Jews, observed the feasts of God but, because they adhered to a solar calendar, the Essenes kept the feasts on specific days of the week. (eg. Passover would always fall from sunset on Tuesday to sunset Wednesday).

Now consider the meaning of Pauls statement in Colossians 2:16-17

Paul cautioned the Colossians not to allow these intruders to judge the congregation with respect to Holy days, which are a shadow of things to come.

The Essenes significantly differed with the leadership of the early believers regarding the issues outlined in Col. 2:16...Eating - Drinking - Festivals - New moons - Holydays.

The new covenant emphasis of 'Redemption of Humanity' was not the teaching of the Essenes.

The point made by Paul was no to let anyone (in particular, the Essenes) judge them..."EXCEPT THE BODY OF YAHSHUA" (believers in Yahshua)
Col 2:17

With thanks from Bon

[Bon]

http://www.bible.ca/7-Col2-14-16.htm


Try that site, if you still dont understand what they meant. This is a good page, though Im not sure about the rest of the site. Try not to be ignorent of what the Lord said to us through Paul.

It says in this site that only the blind and decieved could miss the simple truth in Col 2:16

This site is typical of most christian beliefs to argue that the Laws of God have been done away with...and I will stand firm with muffler dragon in saying that you and this site have a completly false understanding of the truth of the word of God here.

All of these texts are taken COMPLETELY out of context. I am amazed that you choose to ignore the entire content of the subject in question.

I wholly believe that scripture must be studied, first prayerfully and then in context and in complete harmony with the entire word of God.

You, on the other hand, obviously led by this web site, pick out random bible texts and interpret them to your own satisfaction,..."twisting them to your own destruction."......mmmmm :scratch:

I'm sorry Crispie, but you will NEVER budge me from my belief in the truth of the word of God.

Start to read entire chapters and books, do some history study of the times to understand who these letters were being written to and why...

With thanks from Bon

[Crispie]

Led by this site? lol, "obviously" you are wrong, I believe that the new Covenant has new laws and has done away with the laws of the Old Covenant because of mainly the Book of Hebrews. Old and New covenant, 2 different things. Just so happened I came across this site to further my research on the doing away of the laws of the Old Covenant.

The passages right before talk about Jesus nailing the written code, and its regulations, to the cross, then after that says THEREFORE dont let people judge you on these things, for these are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.



14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

[muffler dragon]

Crispie:

It appears you just don't get what I've said this entire time, or you're ignoring it.

Led by this site? lol, "obviously" you are wrong, I believe that the new Covenant has new laws and has done away with the laws of the Old Covenant because of mainly the Book of Hebrews. Old and New covenant, 2 different things. Just so happened I came across this site to further my research on the doing away of the laws of the Old Covenant.

You have provided no support for the premise regarding the doing away with the Laws or the "old" covenant. Neither situation that you purport is true. The "new" covenant is actually a renewing of the marriage covenant between G-d and Israel. Read Jeremiah 31. Regarding the Torah (Law), it is a document that will not be changed or done away with until the sun and moon are no more. The book of Hebrews is not sufficient enough to bases a doctrine off of. The book is a commentary on things discussed in the Tanakh ('old' Testament). This is the case with the majority of NT Scripture: it discusses the the Torah and Tanakh. You can't have the "new" Testament without the Tanakh. If you want to have a doctrine of any support, you need to have validation of it in the Tanakh; otherwise it is unsubstantiated and eisegetical.

The passages right before talk about Jesus nailing the written code, and its regulations, to the cross, then after that says THEREFORE dont let people judge you on these things, for these are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

Do you read anything that other people post? Bon has already addressed the context of this letter, who it was written to, why it was written and so forth. You are taking it completely out of context and reading your own understanding into it. The verse has NOTHING to do with the Torah.

Maybe some day you'll see it, but until then at least consider the possibility that you are wrong about the context.

m.d.

[Crispie]

Then how come it talks about things such as the Sabbath, being a shadow of things to come, in response to Jesus nailing and canceling the law onto the cross?

[muffler dragon]

Then how come it talks about things such as the Sabbath, being a shadow of things to come, in response to Jesus nailing and canceling the law onto the cross?
refer to post #76 by bon first of all.

Crispie, I have to ask again: do you read posts by other people in their entirity? This question of nailing and canceling has already been addressed and addressed. What are you not understanding that has been stated in these addresses?

m.d.

[Crispie]

Dude, I dont see how you come up with your conclusions. Jesus nails and cancels the written law on the Cross. How come Jesus came and as part of the new covenant he canceled this "written law". What law do you think he could possibly be nailing to the cross?

[Crispie]

Eph 2:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eph/Eph002.html#15) Having abolished 2673 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=2673) in 1722 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=1722) his 846 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=846) flesh 4561 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=4561) the enmity 2189 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=2189), [even] the law 3551 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=3551) of commandments 1785 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=1785) [contained] in 1722 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=1722) ordinances 1378 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=1378); for to 2443 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=2443) make 2936 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=2936) in 1722 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=1722) himself 1438 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=1438) of twain 1417 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=1417) one 1519 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=1519) 1520 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=1520) new 2537 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=2537) man 444 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=444), [so] making 4160 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=4160) peace 1515 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=1515);

Col 2:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Col/Col002.html#14) Blotting out 1813 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=1813) the handwriting 5498 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=5498) of ordinances 1378 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=1378) that was against 2596 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=2596) us 2257 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=2257), which 3739 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=3739) was 2258 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=2258) contrary 5227 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=5227) to us 2254 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=2254), and 2532 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=2532) took 142 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=142) it 846 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=846) out of 1537 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=1537) the way 3319 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=3319), nailing 4338 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=4338) it 846 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=846) to his cross 4716 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=4716);





Pronunciation Guide dogma {dog'-mah}
TDNT ReferenceRoot Word TDNT (http://www.blueletterbible.org/help/tdnt.html) - 2:230,178 from the base of 1380 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=1380&page=1) Part of Speech n n Outline of Biblical Usage 1) doctrine, decree, ordinance

a) of public decrees

b) of the Roman Senate

c) of rulers

2) the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment

3) of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living



Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 5 AV (http://www.blueletterbible.org/help/av.html) - decree (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?show_strongs=yes&word=decree*+1378) 3, ordinance (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?show_strongs=yes&word=ordinance*+1378) 2; 5

[muffler dragon]

If you keep the sabbath, then you are following laws from the Old Covenant, and remember that that covenant is no more, all laws of Judaism is no more, and a new covenant with the Law of God written on the minds and hearts of men are the ones we Christians follow today. Hebrews is excellent for better understanding the 2 covanants and changes and fulfillments of both.

And yet, you'd still be wrong.

Your understanding of covenants, the Torah, Judaism, and how it is today are vastly naive in a number of ways. Do we want to get into on this thread? Not really, because I hate to rabbit trail. But I encourage you to evaluate the Word of G-d through Jewish eyes. You might be able to understand a little better.

As I advocate of people I agree and disagree with: if you are going to present ideas and flagrant statements as you have above, then please provide substantiated Scriptural proof from both the New AND Old Testaments. That's the only way to have a sure-fire dogma or doctrine.



Quote:
Hebrews 8
13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

New Covenant, no longer are we to obey the Old one.

Quote:
Hebrews 10
15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds."

The laws are now written upon our minds and hearts, these new laws of the new Covenant.

Quote:
Hebrews 10
1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

Once again, the Old Testament law is only for the Old Covenant, now that we follow a new Covenant we have the new Covenant law to follow, which is written upon our minds and hearts.

And what exactly are those laws, Crispie?

What laws would a Jew be talking about?

The answer: the Torah.

Is the Torah written upon your heart? Are you so ingratiated in your walk with G-d that you no longer need to study the Word of G-d? That is what this portion of the covenant is addressing. If you answer 'no' to either of these questions, then it means that this has not been fulfilled yet.

I understand where you're coming from. I really do, but in all honesty, it's simply a 'christianizing' of the way things can be understood. Through Jewish eyes, as even the author of Hebrews would be taken, there is so much more that opens up and gives explanation.

You cannot expound to believe in a doctrine based solely on the New Testament; it just won't be a firm foundation.

Hebrews 8
13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Doesnt anyone realize that the Old Covanant is now obsolete JUST LIKE THE NT SAYS. We are to follow the new covenant, which was started by the Blood of Christ. It doesnt say that the Old Laws are now in our mind and hearts, but that the Old laws are no more, and that a new covanant and laws have begun. Read the book of Hebrew if you dont believe me. At least read Hebrews chapter 8, fully explains how a new covanant with better laws has come, and that the old one is no more.

And here, you have very little idea as to what the 'new' covenant really is.

It's a renewing of the marriage covenant between G-d and Israel. See Jeremiah 31.

Furthermore, let's look at the context of your Hebrews 8

A New Covenant

7 For (16) if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8 For finding fault with them, He says,
"(17) BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT (18) A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9
(19) NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10
"(20) FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM (21) ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11
"(22) AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'
FOR (23) ALL WILL KNOW ME,
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12
"(24) FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
(25) AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."
13 When He said, "(26) A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. (27) But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

As I said before, please read Jeremiah 31, as this is what is being discussed here.

Crispie, I implore you to do more research into this situation. You are taking singular verses at face value and not looking at the depth.

Hebrews 10

1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

9Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second.



[quote=Crispie, post 55] Colossians 2

13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,[1] God made you[2] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[3]
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Once AGAIN, Crispie, you're not looking at Scripture as a whole.

You really, really, really need to stop just posting this stuff without any substantiation.

Furthermore, from studying Jewish history (which you have not done), you would note that there were different sects within Judaism. These sects would hold different dates for festivals and days. Because they did this, each group thought that they had the 'correct' day and everyone else was wrong. This is why Sha'ul is saying don't judge someone because of the days that you celebrate.

http://www.bible.ca/7-Col2-14-16.htm


Try that site, if you still dont understand what they meant. This is a good page, though Im not sure about the rest of the site. Try not to be ignorent of what the Lord said to us through Paul.

How about this consideration?:

Try not to be ignorant of what is stated in the remaining 75% of the Bible. I have asked you for one piece of substantial evidence from the Old Testament, but yet you rebuff it with silence.

Who's reading into what, Crispie? You've got a case based on letters of commentary that were written to help people understand the Tanakh (OT). Do you not realize that?

No one in disagreement with you is devaluing what Sha'ul wrote. It's a matter of understanding why he wrote it, to whom, what the context is and so on. You have addressed none of that and simply given singular portions of Scripture that cannot hang on their own.

I suggest you just hang up on this cause that you have not justified. If you can't defend something as a doctrine, state it simply as an opinion. That is a satisfactory thing to consider. Otherwise, you are not going to win this argument.

Read on to part 2... (sorry everyone, I don't know why this post is looking like this)

[muffler dragon]

Can you give any verses talking of how honoring the Sabbath was a law before the law of Moses?

I don't know who you're addressing, but AV 1611 did this very thing above.

At the same time, I would like to ask: "Why are you so concerned whether 'honoring' the Sabbath is a law or not?" Can people not just honor it, because G-d values it so highly. Remember this: you were the one who came into this thread saying that it is a law, the law has been done away, and so on. There was no contention in the OP about whether the Sabbath is a law or not. The OP just asked if anyone observed it. Do you see the distinction I am making?

These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

If things such as the Sabbath are a shadow of things to come,


14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

and it was canceled on the cross, how can it still be a law we must follow in the new covenant?

Crispie:

I am going to show you something that you can accept or deny: to me, it matters not which you choose, but I want you to see it nonetheless.

Colossians 2
1I want you to know how much I am struggling for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally. 2My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. 5For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how orderly you are and how firm your faith in Christ is. 6So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, 7rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.
8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[1] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,[2] God made you[3] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[4]
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

Do you know what all of these things have in common? None of them is discussing the Torah. Not one. It may appear that way because of commonality of terms, but it is not the case.

Let's look at what Sha'ul says about the Torah:

Romans 7
12 (1) So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

You need to go back to the time that this is written, the audience, the purpose, the context, as I have stated over and over and over again. Then you will see what Sha'ul is talking about. This is a discussion much like Y'shua had regarding the washing of utensils in eating. It has to do with Halacha (Oral Torah). This set of regulations had become burdensome on the laypeople.

This is entirely too much to go into for a tiny thread such as this. But I assure you that this discussion is not a dismissal of the Torah.

Led by this site? lol, "obviously" you are wrong, I believe that the new Covenant has new laws and has done away with the laws of the Old Covenant because of mainly the Book of Hebrews. Old and New covenant, 2 different things. Just so happened I came across this site to further my research on the doing away of the laws of the Old Covenant.

The passages right before talk about Jesus nailing the written code, and its regulations, to the cross, then after that says THEREFORE dont let people judge you on these things, for these are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.



14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

Crispie:

It appears you just don't get what I've said this entire time, or you're ignoring it.

You have provided no support for the premise regarding the doing away with the Laws or the "old" covenant. Neither situation that you purport is true. The "new" covenant is actually a renewing of the marriage covenant between G-d and Israel. Read Jeremiah 31. Regarding the Torah (Law), it is a document that will not be changed or done away with until the sun and moon are no more. The book of Hebrews is not sufficient enough to bases a doctrine off of. The book is a commentary on things discussed in the Tanakh ('old' Testament). This is the case with the majority of NT Scripture: it discusses the the Torah and Tanakh. You can't have the "new" Testament without the Tanakh. If you want to have a doctrine of any support, you need to have validation of it in the Tanakh; otherwise it is unsubstantiated and eisegetical.

Do you read anything that other people post? Bon has already addressed the context of this letter, who it was written to, why it was written and so forth. You are taking it completely out of context and reading your own understanding into it. The verse has NOTHING to do with the Torah.

Maybe some day you'll see it, but until then at least consider the possibility that you are wrong about the context.

Then how come it talks about things such as the Sabbath, being a shadow of things to come, in response to Jesus nailing and canceling the law onto the cross?

[quote=me, post 81 refer to post #76 by bon first of all.

Crispie, I have to ask again: do you read posts by other people in their entirity? This question of nailing and canceling has already been addressed and addressed. What are you not understanding that has been stated in these addresses?

Dude, I dont see how you come up with your conclusions. Jesus nails and cancels the written law on the Cross. How come Jesus came and as part of the new covenant he canceled this "written law". What law do you think he could possibly be nailing to the cross?

Eph 2:15 Having abolished 2673 in 1722 his 846 flesh 4561 the enmity 2189, [even] the law 3551 of commandments 1785 [contained] in 1722 ordinances 1378; for to 2443 make 2936 in 1722 himself 1438 of twain 1417 one 1519 1520 new 2537 man 444, [so] making 4160 peace 1515;

Col 2:14 Blotting out 1813 the handwriting 5498 of ordinances 1378 that was against 2596 us 2257, which 3739 was 2258 contrary 5227 to us 2254, and 2532 took 142 it 846 out of 1537 the way 3319, nailing 4338 it 846 to his cross 4716;

Pronunciation Guide dogma {dog'-mah}
TDNT ReferenceRoot Word TDNT - 2:230,178 from the base of 1380 Part of Speech n n Outline of Biblical Usage 1) doctrine, decree, ordinance

a) of public decrees

b) of the Roman Senate

c) of rulers

2) the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment

3) of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 5 AV - decree 3, ordinance 2; 5

Now, Dude, that everything is in plain site, what have you brought up that I have not addressed? Maybe you can't see how I come to my conclusions, because you don't read my posts. That's the only conclusion I can come to.

You promote ideas in the "New" Testament and then try to support them with Scripture from the "New" Testament. That does not cut it. Substantiate it with something from the Tanakh. If it is so cut and dry for you to be right about this, it should be evident throughout all of the Bible. If not, drop it.

m.d.

[Crispie]

You promote ideas in the "New" Testament and then try to support them with Scripture from the "New" Testament.


If the New Testament is the Word of God, then I see nothing wrong with supporting my beliefs of the New Testament. Also you fail to answer my question,




of these definitions,


1) doctrine, decree, ordinance

a) of public decrees

b) of the Roman Senate

c) of rulers

2) the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment

3) of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living

which definition applys the this written law Jesus nails to the Cross and cancels?