Orthodox Relics Looted by the Crusaders

[Rilian]

There's a thread in OBOB that asked for Catholic only respsonses, so I'll post here. There seems to be some questions about what exactly happened, if relics can be bought and sold, and an opinion expressed that it was a "good" thing that the relics were taken West (they apparently being the rightful owners of the items anyway).

Two descriptions of the horrific sack of Constantinople in 1204 can be found here (http://aggreen.net/church_history/1204_sack.html) and here (http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/1204.html). They detail many of the items taken and the flourishing trade that sprouted up to facilitate the buying and selling of stolen relics.

[QuagDabPeg]

That thread kind of bothered me. Especially the part about "Even if we did take them it's okay because it was -really- ours to begin with since we are the true church." I mean, it's fine to discuss it but whoever made that comment really bothered me.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

There's a thread in OBOB that asked for Catholic only respsonses, so I'll post here. There seems to be some questions about what exactly happened, if relics can be bought and sold, and an opinion expressed that it was a "good" thing that the relics were taken West (they apparently being the rightful owners of the items anyway).

Two descriptions of the horrific sack of Constantinople in 1204 can be found here (http://aggreen.net/church_history/1204_sack.html) and here (http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/1204.html). They detail many of the items taken and the flourishing trade that sprouted up to facilitate the buying and selling of stolen relics.
Man, I couldn't even finish the first article. How horrible! To think that someone could say it was a good thing reveals a hard heart. How could anyone justify murder, rape, and pillage?

[Moros]

The Pope recently offered a lengthy apology for the sack of Constantinople. Bartholomew accepted it. However, it would have made the Pope's apology more sincere if he had returned some relics with his words.

[Rilian]

The apology the Pope offered I think was welcome and helpful, but yes very little has actually been returned. When this came up last time, I think it was Prodromos who offered the best way that this whole topic should be handled.

What really bothered me about this was the ignorance surrounding the issue, because it reinforces a stereotype of the West being ignorant of and/or indifferent to the concerns of the East, theological, historical or otherwise.

The idea that these items were protected from Islamic destruction is particularly absurd. The Roman Empire centered in Constantinople (what we now call the Byantine Empire) was founded in the 4th century and lasted a little over a thousand years. In duration, it was the longest running Christian empire in history. The sack of the city in 1204 happened more than two hundred years before the empire actually fell to the Ottomans in 1453. The tragic aspects are of course that the sack and sixty year occupation decisively weakened the empire, making the fall inevitable. It is also the sad history of the final days of the empire that the last Byzantine emporers tried desperately to enlist the help of the West appealing to them as Christian brethren. Help never arrived. Ironically of course after the fall, the church was basically left in tact and given license to govern itself under the Ottomans which stood in stark contrast to the devastation wrought by the Latin occupation.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Yes, to start with they can return the Holy Mandylion which is currently travelling in the St. Peter and the Vatican Exhibit! When the Pope gives that and other holy things back to us then I will know he is sincere.

[nyj]

http://www.mosnews.com/news/2004/07/12/kazan.shtml

[OrthodoxTexan]

The return of the Kazan icon is a nice gesture, but it is not one of the icons, relics or liturgical materials stolen during the sacking of Constantinople. It was spirited out of Russia at the time of the Bolsheviks and ended up on the hands of a Catholic group who in turn gave it to the Pope.

[nyj]

The return of the Kazan icon is a nice gesture, but it is not one of the icons, relics or liturgical materials stolen during the sacking of Constantinople. It was spirited out of Russia at the time of the Bolsheviks and ended up on the hands of a Catholic group who in turn gave it to the Pope. Got to start somewhere, correct? Perhaps the Pope is trying to lead by example here... hoping that his actions will prompt serious reflection on the part of Catholics who have benefitted from these treasures yet may not know the history behind how these relics and icons are in their parishes.

Everyone seems to want to assume the worst, and never give the benefit of the doubt. You know, I think it unfair to think that because a Catholic today has had the chance to benefit from icons and relics taken wrongly centuries ago that that makes them as bad (if not worse the way some people carry on) as those who took those treasures in the first place.

[Matrona]

I thought we already had the venerable head of St. John the Forerunner??http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Holy_Relics/St._John_the_Baptist/index.shtml I have no idea where those were taken, but one of those photos shows a priest wearing Orthodox vestments.

May the prayers of the Most Holy Theotokos, Protectress of Constantinople, call the westerners to GENUINE repentance for their crime against the Church founded by Jesus Christ.

[garydench]

Relics don't belong to anyone, so to say that they need to be "returned" is just incorrect.

And yes, it was only recently I learnt that relics can't be sold!

[Rechtgläubig]

Relics don't belong to anyone, so to say that they need to be "returned" is just incorrect.

Would it be ok for someone to remove a Relic from your church?

Would the Roman Catholic churches contact authorities to have removed Relics found and returned?


:scratch:

[Michael the Iconographer]

Would it be ok for someone to remove a Relic from your church?

Would the Roman Catholic churches contact authorities to have removed Relics found and returned?


:scratch:

Good point! If I stole the famous paintings from Ceiling of the Sistine Chapel or better yet Our Lady of Guadalupe would you have the authorities and lawyers all over me trying to get it returned?

[garydench]

I'm afraid that's a different matter entirely. Relics are in the church to be venerated, and when removed by an unscrupulous person, they are being taken to a place where cannot be venerated. Therefore, it is quite permissible to act to get it returned.

[Cradle]

I'm afraid you didn't bother to read Rillian's links. Here's part of the first for your enjoyment.

Once inside the walls, the Crusaders began an orgy of carnage, brutality and vandalism not seen in Europe since the barbarians invaded seven centuries earlier. No one was spared: not bishop, priest, nun, man, woman or child. Few women escaped being violated, whether at home, in the street, or in the convent. Fires were started throughout the city. The butchery ended only when the Crusaders were so tired that they no longer could lift their swords. Then began looting and profanation on a scale unparalleled in history. A mob rushed into Santa Sophia. With the Image of the Pantacrator looking down upon them from the great dome, they broke up the altar for its gold content, smashed the icons, threw the Holy Gifts to the floor, seized the church vessels for their Jewels, and tore mosaics and tapestries from the walls. Horses and mules were brought into the church the better to carry off the sacred vessels, gold, silver, and whatever else they could gather. Drunken soldiers drank from chalices and ate from patens while riding asses draped with priestly vestments. A mocking prostitute was placed on the Patriarch's chair to dance and sing obscene songs. This pattern of pilferage and desecration was repeated in churches, monasteries and palaces throughout the city. The tombs of the emperors were rifled, and all of the classical statues and monuments which had survived from ancient Greece and imperial Rome were destroyed. One writer wrote that never in history had so much beauty, so much superb craftsmanship been so wantonly destroyed in so short a space of time. What was not carried off was burned, smashed, melted down for its precious metal content, or stripped for its jewels.

After the killing, after the city had been subdued, there began a slow and steady removal of treasures out of the Orthodox temples and into the cathedrals, churches, monasteries, convents, cities and towns of Latin Europe. Some of these items had been venerated, cherished, and protected for centuries, others for a millennium. Now they were being carted away from over a hundred and fifty churches: altars, altar screens, tabernacles, antimins, icons, icon frames, processional, pectoral and altar crosses, gold and silver chains, panagias, mitres, croziers, chalices, patens, star covers and spears, Gospels, Epistle books, ladles, church plate, censers, votive lights, relics, candelabra, epitaphia, fans, reliquaries, vestments, banners, manuscripts, miniatures, ivories, carvings, mosaics, thrones, tapestries, furniture and architectural items. Cartloads of gold and silver from Santa Sophia found their way into the Vatican treasury. Constantinople had become the gold mine which supplied Latin Christendom.

The wealth was so great that the looting continued for sixty years. A century earlier, after the First Crusade, Jerusalem, Antioch, and Edessa were similarly stripped for a period of forty years. Now it was happening to the imperial city. A scandalous traffic in relics was started. The head of St. John the Baptist was carried off to Amiens. Amalfi, Italy took the head of St. Andrew the First-Called from the Church of the Holy Apostles, along with a set of heavy bronze doors. The bishop of Soissons shipped home the head of St. Stephen and a relic of St. John. The remains of St. Clement, pillaged from the Church of St. Theodosia, were taken to Cluny. St. Albans received the relics of St. Marina. Halbstadt claimed the relics of St. James. The True Cross was divided up among the barons, with a portion sent to the pope, and another fragment taken to Paris. A priceless gold and enamel reliquary encrusted with jewels, containing a fragment of the Wood wound up in a nunnery in Steuben. King Louis IX of France paid 10,000 silver marks for the "true" Crown of Thorns, for which he built St. Chapells in Paris.

Gone was the maphorion of the Theotokos, as was her zone and the wonder-working icon. Gone or destroyed--the relics of St. Luke and St. Timothy; no trace of the relics of St. John Chrysostom. An altar cloth with the relic of St. Paul was missing. Nothing is known of the stone seat of St. Mark.

The Blessed Day will come when the Lord will grant His Justice.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

The Blessed Day will come when the Lord will grant His Justice.
Amen. May the Lord have mercy on us all. I can't hardly read about this without feeling outrage. Is BIG outrage!

[nyj]

Good point! If I stole the famous paintings from Ceiling of the Sistine Chapel or better yet Our Lady of Guadalupe would you have the authorities and lawyers all over me trying to get it returned? I suppose you can complain to the same authorities that can do something about the land you are living on which was stolen from the Native Americans of North America.

Or wait... I guess since you're the beneficiary of land gained by ill-gotten means it's ok? Or was the Treaty of Greenville (http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/naind/html/na_040600_treatyofgree.htm) in 1795 (where most of Ohio was handed over to the US Army) "business as usual"?

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

I suppose you can complain to the same authorities that can do something about the land you are living on which was stolen from the Native Americans of North America.

Or wait... I guess since you're the beneficiary of land gained by ill-gotten means it's ok?
That seems like comparing apples to oranges IMO. Stolen Icons and relics can easily be returned. To give back an entire "stolen" country would pretty much be impossible at this point. This, of course, would be no reason not to try and make ammends or provide help to them. What could be done with an entire nation of displaced people (if they reclaimed their land)?

[Michael the Iconographer]

I suppose you can complain to the same authorities that can do something about the land you are living on which was stolen from the Native Americans of North America.

Or wait... I guess since you're the beneficiary of land gained by ill-gotten means it's ok? Or was the Treaty of Greenville (http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/naind/html/na_040600_treatyofgree.htm) in 1795 (where most of Ohio was handed over to the US Army) "business as usual"?


No, your point is completely invalid. Read a little of the history of the Crusades and then you will see why we are so upset over the whole relics being stolen issue.

[nyj]

That seems like comparing apples to oranges IMO. Stolen Icons and relics can easily be returned. To give back an entire "stolen" country would pretty much be impossible at this point. This, of course, would be no reason not to try and make ammends or provide help to them. What could be done with an entire nation of displaced people (if they reclaimed their land)? I don't know if the situations are as dissimilar as they appear. While the loss of relics and icons is grievous (and I have never said otherwise, you can check the original OBOB thread to see my comments), it's a far cry of having your land and livelihood (and your generations livelihoods) stripped from you forever. Yes, icons and relics can be returned, and more importantly you still have the Sacraments. I've already shown that the Icon of Kazan is being returned, but it didn't seem to be quite enough... as evidenced by the responses here.

And, btw, what do you think proper restitution could be for the Native American people? You guys are so fond as saying that true reconciliation on the part of the Catholic Church would be returning what was stolen...

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

I don't know if the situations are as dissimilar as they appear. While the loss of relics and icons is grievous (and I have never said otherwise, you can check the original OBOB thread to see my comments), it's a far cry of having your land and livelihood (and your generations livelihoods) stripped from them forever. Yes, icons and relics can be returned, and as I've shown (but it didn't seem to be quite enough... as evidenced by the responses here) that is beginning.

And, btw, what do you think proper restitution could be for the Native American people? You guys are so fond as saying that true reconciliation on the part of the Catholic Church would be returning what was stolen...
If you'd like to start another thread to discuss the Native American land issue, go for it. In this thread, however, I think we should stick to the topic of the original OP. I don't think comparing the two creates a valid arguement. To me, it's like saying if someone broke into my house and stole family heirlooms, but then the theif got caught and argues "Yeah, but I bet some of your ancestors stole stuff!" How relevant is that?

[nyj]

I don't think comparing the two creates a valid arguement. To me, it's like saying if someone broke into my house and stole family heirlooms, but then the theif got caught and argues "Yeah, but I bet some of your ancestors stole stuff!" How relevant is that?
It was, IMO, about a relevant as the comparison of Iconographer's of stealing the Tilma of Juan Deigo in todays society.

[Cradle]

Dear nyj, reconciliation can't happen when there are still people claiming all this 1204 slaughtering, raping, burning, looting, pilfering was justifiable "because we are Rome and they are ours" - oh fine so let's go around, rape a few nuns, burn a few churches and acquire what is ours? What history has condemned, what the Pope himself has apologised for, there are still people in the west backing it. For God's sake, is it so hard for some people to understand the contradiction of saying you'll go to hell if you miss church a single Sunday, and at the same time justify all these attrocities? Some funny little chap even said the HOLY RELICS OF THE SAINTS OF GOD were the "spoils of war"!!! Lord have mercy! Pride, pride, pride everywhere!!! So the relics don't belong to us Orthodox, they belong to the Lord, fine I agree - but why in the name of God are people still justifying the looting of that which belongs to the Lord? And then the same people are coming around calling us their "Orthodox brothers"??? What in the name of God sort of a brotherhood is that?

I'm not refering to you personally, but if you check both this thread and the equivalent in OBOB you'll get good examples.

In the light of all this, I simply think our mindsets have grown so far apart, our ideas of spirituality, reverence (I mean, COME ON, "spoils of war" the Holy Relics???), our perception of our relationship with the Lord and the Church Triumphant - all these are so different, that probably the best idea is not to bother about reconciliation at all, just seek our own humility and repentance within the respective traditions that have been granted to us, and trust the Lord for the rest. I find these discussions extremely counter-productive for our spirituality.

[nyj]

Dear nyj, reconciliation can't happen when there are still people claiming all this 1204 slaughtering, raping, burning, looting, pilfering was justifiable "because we are Rome and they are ours" - oh fine so let's go around, rape a few nuns, burn a few churches and acquire what is ours? Here is how things look from my end:
1. First you guys say the Pope needs to apologize.
2. And the Pope apologizes.
3. Then you guys say it's an empty apology because he didn't return anything.
4. And then the Pope returns the Icon of Kazan.
5. So then you guys say it's not from Constantinople so it doesn't count.

From my vantage point, I see a bunch of people who seem to be more interested in being offended by things than anything else.

My first encounter with someone, in person, of the Orthodox faith happened a few years back. It was at the State Fair of Oklahoma, and one of the local Orthodox parishes had a booth next to the Archdiocese of Oklahoma City, a booth that I was manning. After my shift was over, I stopped by the Orthodox booth. They were having a fund-raiser, so I donated ten dollars. One of the men in the booth gave me, as a token of their appreciation, a small icon of the Pantocrator. We got to talking for a few minutes and then he asked me what I was doing here. I mentioned I was over in the next booth volunteering to man the Catholic booth. He grabbed the icon out of my hand and told me I should be ashamed of the what the Catholic Church did to Constantinople. At the time, I wasn't even aware of what happened over 800 years ago. I know what happened today, but really...

And to this day... no matter where I go, I make mention of being Catholic around an Orthodox and Constantinople invariably comes up. The reason reconciliation isn't possible is because, from my vantage point, people want to stay offended.

For God's sake, is it so hard for some people to understand the contradiction of saying you'll go to hell if you miss church a single Sunday, and at the same time justify all these attrocities? Actually, the Church doesn't say you'll go to hell if you miss Mass, but that is neither here nor there.

And do you mean to tell me that in Russia, where many Orthodox condone the forcible re-acquisition of the Uniate Churches, that is justified and acceptable behavior? You make it seem as is the East is spotless and pristinely holy while the West is decadent. Need I remind you that we're all sinners. The Orthodox are fond of equating the Church with a Hospital, correct? A hospital isn't necessary if no one is sick, right? From my vantage point, there is hypocrisy and ignorance on both sides. But to say that that should prevent the rest of us from exhibiting grace and charity is a poor excuse for withholding those qualities expected of us.

But hey... if you wish to be offended by one child's comments, there isn't much I can offer you in way of compensation Cradle. So be it. Yet another pathetic discussion between Catholics and Orthodox here. Par for the course I suppose.

[Matrona]

I'm afraid you didn't bother to read Rillian's links. Here's part of the first for your enjoyment.

The Blessed Day will come when the Lord will grant His Justice.
May the Lord in his goodness and love, have mercy on the souls of those who attempt to excuse the Crusaders' treachery.

At least the US government has tried to begin making amends to the Native Americans for killing their ancestors and stealing and defiling their land. After recognizing that what they did was horribly, horribly wrong, they at least tried to work some kind of solution to restore some of the Native Americans' sovereignty and to finally do right by them.

We must also recognize that the US government is a SECULAR organization. Surely we should be able to expect behavior that is even more Godly, from a group that claims to be the Body of Christ on earth.

[Cradle]

At the time, I wasn't even aware of what happened over 800 years ago.

I can believe that. There is complete ignorance around.

people want to stay offended.

Well... what's strange with that, since there are also people backing the offenders and their offences?

You make it seem as is the East is spotless and pristinely holy

No I don't mean to say that. On the human level, we are worse than you. Our difference is that we don't try to elevate our weaknesses and our sins to virtues, as some, not all, and not you, on your side do.

But hey... if you wish to be offended by one child's comments

The child commented and 24 hours later no grown-up has corrected.

Yet another pathetic discussion between Catholics and Orthodox here. Par for the course I suppose.

I humbly ask for your forgiveness if you think that was because of me.

[nyj]

Read a little of the history of the Crusades and then you will see why we are so upset over the whole relics being stolen issue.
Iconographer, have you ever heard of the Trail of Tears? Do you think those tears were ones of joy perhaps?!?

[nyj]

I can believe that. There is complete ignorance around. Cradle, do you think it's reasonable for everyone to know everything about everything?

Our difference is that we don't try to elevate our weaknesses and our sins to virtues, as some, not all, and not you, on your side do. So there isn't a single professing Orthodox person in the world who exhibits this attitude? Come on Cradle... people are people.

The child commented and 24 hours later no grown-up has corrected.
Incorrect. Immediately following that ignorant comment, I responded with something which I thought was a more appropriate response. Also, Servant of the Kingdom flat out quoted him and rebutted the comment. What more would you like? A public flogging of the individual for his ignorant comments?

At any rate, I think I've overextended my stay here. Good-bye.

[OrthodoxTexan]

The treatment of the Indians in North America by a secular American government has little in common with the raping, pillaging and plunder of a Christian city by a group of greed-driven "Christians". None the less, few will defend the past actions of the US towards the Native Americans, but apparently plenty are willing to defend the unchristian actions of the Crusaders on the Orthodox East.

[Cradle]

I think it's reasonable for people who go around giving opinions about something to know what they're talking about. Otherwise they should be a bit more humble and acknowledge their ignorance. At least they could do so a posteriori.

And yes, people are people, but there is enormous difference in the way people on average address matters. But I suppose I have no way to convince you on this :). It might be worth trying an experiment - starting a thread about X attrocity conducted by catholics in OBOB and another one about Y attrocity of comparable magnitude conducted by orthodox in TAW and get your statistics. We may try language tricks or things, we may question the responsibility of the church, but I sincerely think that at least there will be no one to outrightly justify. You know, we have no problem whatsoever to disagree even with our bishops when it's clear they are in error.

Our perceptions of spirituality have grown very far apart my friend. And I think we can't reach reconciliation ourselves. It could be granted, only when the Lord wishes to grant it, and that will be only when we are both trully humble and repentant within our respective traditions. Goodbye to you too and God with you.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

[ QUOTE=nyj]Here is how things look from my end:

My first encounter with someone, in person, of the Orthodox faith happened a few years back. It was at the State Fair of Oklahoma, and one of the local Orthodox parishes had a booth next to the Archdiocese of Oklahoma City, a booth that I was manning. After my shift was over, I stopped by the Orthodox booth. They were having a fund-raiser, so I donated ten dollars. One of the men in the booth gave me, as a token of their appreciation, a small icon of the Pantocrator. We got to talking for a few minutes and then he asked me what I was doing here. I mentioned I was over in the next booth volunteering to man the Catholic booth. He grabbed the icon out of my hand and told me I should be ashamed of the what the Catholic Church did to Constantinople. At the time, I wasn't even aware of what happened over 800 years ago. I know what happened today, but really...

I suppose it's no wonder you feel the way you do about the Orthodox Church. I've never heard of any episodes like this before. I have a hard time believing that you hear about this every time you talk to an Orthodox Christian, unless you are the one bringing it up. I know a pretty good deal of Orthodox people now, and this thread is the first time I've seen it discussed with any detail. A couple people mentioned it once before because the topic came up in passing, but it's not something anyone slips into general conversation. Not that I've seen anyway.

[Matrona]

Here is how things look from my end:
1. First you guys say the Pope needs to apologize.
2. And the Pope apologizes.
3. Then you guys say it's an empty apology because he didn't return anything.
4. And then the Pope returns the Icon of Kazan.
5. So then you guys say it's not from Constantinople so it doesn't count.The Kazan icon doesn't 'count' because it isn't one of the treasures stolen from Constantinople. In fact, it wasn't stolen from anyone, anywhere--and it's not anything close to reparation for the horrible crime committed against us.

Also, not everything the Latins took during their rape of Constantinople was a relic, so arguing that nothing was stolen on that logic won't work.

So it was 800 years ago--so what? Does that somehow make those relics and valuables any less STOLEN? Those women any less RAPED? Those who fell on a Latin sword any less MURDERED? And you have the gall to act like we're in the wrong for not forgetting our ancestors in the faith and the egregious suffering YOUR ancestors in the faith inflicted upon them?

My first encounter with someone, in person, of the Orthodox faith happened a few years back. It was at the State Fair of Oklahoma, and one of the local Orthodox parishes had a booth next to the Archdiocese of Oklahoma City, a booth that I was manning. After my shift was over, I stopped by the Orthodox booth. They were having a fund-raiser, so I donated ten dollars. One of the men in the booth gave me, as a token of their appreciation, a small icon of the Pantocrator. We got to talking for a few minutes and then he asked me what I was doing here. I mentioned I was over in the next booth volunteering to man the Catholic booth. He grabbed the icon out of my hand and told me I should be ashamed of the what the Catholic Church did to Constantinople. At the time, I wasn't even aware of what happened over 800 years ago. I know what happened today, but really...Since you were still ignorant of the rape of Constantinople, he should not have reacted in such anger. But he was right about one thing, you SHOULD be ashamed, not trying to justify it, as if there were any justification in heaven or on earth for this crime against humanity!

And to this day... no matter where I go, I make mention of being Catholic around an Orthodox and Constantinople invariably comes up. The reason reconciliation isn't possible is because, from my vantage point, people want to stay offended.That's because the only reparations made have been with nice, cheap words while you make excuses for clinging to the possessions which rightfully belong to us. Providentially, however, the things taken from us are simply material goods, and nothing the Latin Crusaders could have taken would have diminished the Holy Orthodox Faith, being the Church founded by Jesus Christ.

The Holy Orthodox Faith has suffered oppression and outrageous atrocities under the Romans, the Crusaders, the Ottomans, and the Bolsheviks, and WE OUTLASTED THEM ALL. Are you sure you want to mess with us?

[InnerPhyre]

I just wanted to let you all know, when I started the thread in OBOB, I wasn't excluding the Orthodox out of spite. To the contrary. I started it because I had heard your side of the story here in TAW, and I wanted to hear the Catholic side of it without things turning into a huge debate. For the sake of peace, I said "Catholics only please." I don't happen to agree with many of the opinions expressed in OBOB on the matter. While I agree that all relics belong to the God and are under the care of the Church, I don't see how some people could have said that the manner in which they were taken is ok. If that's the case, when I become a priest, can I just march into an Orthodox church and start pulling icons off the walls and hang them in my church? Don't think so. At the same time, these things have now been in Catholic hands for centuries and are adored by those who frequent the churches....Christians who know nothing of the history and are not guilty of the alleged crimes of those who lived 800 years ago. What I do know is that the Pope has asked forgiveness, and in very Christ-like fashion, the EP has accepted the apology. It is much more likely that such relics could be returned if our two sides would engage in dialogue with an attitude of peace and reconciliation instead of the pride that I'm currently seeing on BOTH sides. There isn't much that any of us here can do about it other than pray, but I have great hope that the Pope and EP have more wisdom than all of us here, and will enter dialogue about the issue in a spirit of Christian love. Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, dona nobis pacem.

[Oblio]

Thank you IP !


It is much more likely that such relics could be returned if our two sides would engage in dialogue with an attitude of peace and reconciliation instead of the pride that I'm currently seeing on BOTH sides.


This would be nice, but I am not sure why reconcilliation should be a condition for the return of stolen items.

[InnerPhyre]

Thank you IP !



This would be nice, but I am not sure why reconcilliation should be a condition for the return of stolen items.

By reconciliation, I didn't mean that our churches would become one again. I mean that we can start healing some of the hurts of the past, such as the relic issue, in a spirit of reconciliation.

[Oblio]

Ah ! Thanks :)

[brewmama]

I hope tempers can calm down here, or I may close the thread for awhile. I would just add

a. There are relics of many saints, including St. Peter and St. Paul, in the Greek Orthodox Shrine in St. Augustine, FL, given to them by Rome, as I have noted in some other thread.

b. There was some aggravation by Constantinople in the 4th Crusade, that seems to be always overlooked

c. If Rome hadn't taken a lot of stuff, it would have been destroyed by the Muslims. Constantinople today is in very unfriendly territory to the Church, and may not be the best place to return things to.

Just something to think about.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

I hope tempers can calm down here, or I may close the thread for awhile. I would just add

a. There are relics of many saints, including St. Peter and St. Paul, in the Greek Orthodox Shrine in St. Augustine, FL, given to them by Rome, as I have noted in some other thread.

b. There was some aggravation by Constantinople in the 4th Crusade, that seems to be always overlooked

c. If Rome hadn't taken a lot of stuff, it would have been destroyed by the Muslims. Constantinople today is in very unfriendly territory to the Church, and may not be the best place to return things to.

Just something to think about.
1. What is this "aggravation" you're talking about (statement b)?

2. There is no way of knowing if it would've been destroyed later anyway. That's a very weak justification for the rape, murder, and plunder that happened in the crusade.

[Cradle]

I'm calm :D :D :D.

She probably refers to the anti-Norman riots in Constantinople and she's right. Probably also to the disputes over the Byzantine throne explained towards the beginning of the first link in the OP and she's also right. No doubt human-level mistakes have taken place on our side too, no doubt at all.

I still disagree with point c however. I'm not aware of relics stolen or destroyed by the ottomans. They just did not care. I mean, even in bad periods when they burned churches, they didn't bother about what they perceived as "the bones that the infidels worship". Even in the disastrous war of 1922 the christian refugees from Asia Minor often brought the relics of their Saints with them. There is also at least one example of ottoman royals that donated sacred items to a monastery. That's the Gifts of the Wise Men (presented to the Lord at Nativity) that the step-mother of Mohammed the conqueror donated to St Paul's monastery on Athos (Mohammed's step-mother was the christian princess Mara of Serbia). Just to change the topic a bit, that's quite a fascinating story, it goes that the boat carrying her and the Gifts reached the rudimentary port of St Paul's and she tried to get off so as to present the Gifts herself. There the Virgin Mary appeared and told her to stop, because that was Her place and no other woman had the right to be on Athos. The queen obeyed, one of her followers left the Gifts by the seaside and the monks received and kept them. They are still there :). It's one of the stories the athonites tell the pilgrims.

[brewmama]

1. What is this "aggravation" you're talking about (statement b)?

2. There is no way of knowing if it would've been destroyed later anyway. That's a very weak justification for the rape, murder, and plunder that happened in the crusade.


I don't remember all the details. I went to a seminar on the Crusades at an Orthodox Church in Denver, and a historian gave a long lecture on it, with the bottom line being that it was a tragic event, that was unavoidable the way it was set up, and that both sides played a part in it. For instance, the crusaders were given various promises of things if they would come, but when they did come the promises were totally broken. People refused to give them any aid or food or anything.

You mean you don't think it would have been destroyed when the Turks invaded and took over Constantinople and converted the great Sophia church into a mosque, which it still is today??? Please.

I never said anything was "justified". I just said it was something to think about now, today, hundreds of years later, with all this hostility still abounding in the East over it.

[Rick of Wessex]

Matrona,


The Holy Orthodox Faith has suffered oppression and outrageous atrocities under the Romans, the Crusaders, the Ottomans, and the Bolsheviks, and WE OUTLASTED THEM ALL. Are you sure you want to mess with us?

The sentence above is begging to be added to my sig. ;)

Rick

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

I'm calm :D :D :D.

She probably refers to the anti-Norman riots in Constantinople and she's right. Probably also to the disputes over the Byzantine throne explained towards the beginning of the first link in the OP and she's also right. No doubt human-level mistakes have taken place on our side too, no doubt at all.

.Thanks.:) The question was not meant as a challenge at all. I'm just not a good enough student of history to know what "aggravation" she was referring to.

[katherine2001]

Matrona, you go girl!!!!!:clap: :bow: :hug:

[Rilian]

I think InnerPhyre made some very good points. The only reason I started this thread was that there were comments being added to the other one that I felt were erroneous, and at the time were going unchecked. I don't have any desire to rub this in the face of Catholics who had nothing to do with what happened, or to create more emnity between the two sides. I think it's just important for both sides to understand the history involved.

[Michael the Iconographer]

You are going to make me go arround and pass out reps enough that I can come back and rep you for your boldness! Go Matrona, you are awesome!

The Kazan icon doesn't 'count' because it isn't one of the treasures stolen from Constantinople. In fact, it wasn't stolen from anyone, anywhere--and it's not anything close to reparation for the horrible crime committed against us.

Also, not everything the Latins took during their rape of Constantinople was a relic, so arguing that nothing was stolen on that logic won't work.

So it was 800 years ago--so what? Does that somehow make those relics and valuables any less STOLEN? Those women any less RAPED? Those who fell on a Latin sword any less MURDERED? And you have the gall to act like we're in the wrong for not forgetting our ancestors in the faith and the egregious suffering YOUR ancestors in the faith inflicted upon them?

Since you were still ignorant of the rape of Constantinople, he should not have reacted in such anger. But he was right about one thing, you SHOULD be ashamed, not trying to justify it, as if there were any justification in heaven or on earth for this crime against humanity!

That's because the only reparations made have been with nice, cheap words while you make excuses for clinging to the possessions which rightfully belong to us. Providentially, however, the things taken from us are simply material goods, and nothing the Latin Crusaders could have taken would have diminished the Holy Orthodox Faith, being the Church founded by Jesus Christ.

The Holy Orthodox Faith has suffered oppression and outrageous atrocities under the Romans, the Crusaders, the Ottomans, and the Bolsheviks, and WE OUTLASTED THEM ALL. Are you sure you want to mess with us?

[Michael the Iconographer]

Ok, I guess I did not have to spread arround to many reps to rep you on that one! You deserve a Defender of the Faith title or something like that for your defense of Orthodoxy!

[Matrona]

Ok, I guess I did not have to spread arround to many reps to rep you on that one! You deserve a Defender of the Faith title or something like that for your defense of Orthodoxy!
Awww, shucks... :blush:

Thank you, Rick, Katherine, and Michael. Hugs to all of you. :hug: :hug: :hug:

[Matthias]

I think it was good the Pope apologised for past wrongs, after all; he wasn't around when those shocking events happened. He didn't HAVE to apologise, so I am glad most people around the world can appreciate that.