Praying for the dead

[QuagDabPeg]

The Orthodox church does not believe in Purgatory, but from what I understand they do believe in praying for the dead. What is the reasoning behind this? Can ones final judgement be changed after death? Thanks!!

[The Prokeimenon!]

The Orthodox church does not believe in Purgatory, but from what I understand they do believe in praying for the dead. What is the reasoning behind this? Can ones final judgement be changed after death? Thanks!!


In a nutshell, we pray for them because we love them. We don't know how our prayers effect the souls of the dead. We pray for God to have mercy on them and give them rest. We don't know how our prayers are used, but we offer them in Faith and Love. We know that those who die are still alive, and since there is nothing else we can do for them, and no way to understand or know their present state, we give them to the care of God and ask him to continue His Mercy toward them.

Moses

[SaintGeorge]

Ahhh...I see. Sometimes hope, faith, and love are the only things we have. When you think about, they're really all we need. So basically, even in the darkest hour of death, we pray out of love for a lost one because we have faith that God will hear our prayer and hope that He will have mercy upon them because of it. Now I truly understand why these three abstract concepts are referred to as the three points of the cross.

Thank you for the inspiration, MosestheBlack!

[Akathist]

I asked one of the priests about this two weeks ago and he said that after we die (who are saved) we continue to grow more and more closer to God (and more and more holy) and that our prayers help the dead in this regard. But he also said "Yet, it is afterall, a mystery." (This is something he says all the time.)

I say "How or why does (whatever)." And he says "It is a mystery" (Then he says what is thought to be the answer, etc.)

[The Prokeimenon!]

I say "How or why does (whatever)." And he says "It is a mystery" (Then he says what is thought to be the answer, etc.)


Hehe.... I used to ask my Priest all the time things like "Is this what the Church teaches or is that?" and he'd just say "yes." :D

Moses

[Sergius_Lucius]

BTW, in the Liturgy we (and Eastern Rite Catholics) pray for Saints!

And again we offer unto thee this reasonable service for all those who in faith have gone before us to their rest: Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Preachers, Evangelists, Martyrs, Confessors, Ascetics, and every righteous spirit made perfect in faith.
Especially our all-holy, immaculate, most blessed and glorious Lady Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary...
And for the holy Prophet, Forerunner, and Baptist John; the holy glorious, and all-laudable Apostles; Saint (s) N. (NN.), whose memory we celebrate; and all thy Saints, at whose supplications look down upon us, O God. And be mindful of all those who have fallen asleep before us in the hope of Resurrection unto life eternal; (especially N, NN), and grant them rest, O our God, where the light of thy countenance shines upon them.
So, praying for the dead are not nessesarily connected with the doctrine of purgatory.

[entropy_rising]

Hm... in Catholicism, I guess you could say we pray -to- saints... asking them to intercede for us. Anyways, I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but is there some sort of idea as if there are different...say..."levels" of heaven? Because you say praying helps you grow "closer and closer to God" which could be seen as better and better heaven (heaven being communion with God).

But... in Orthodox theology, is heaven not a full communion with God? How could prayers improve on that?

[The Prokeimenon!]

is there some sort of idea as if there are different...say..."levels" of heaven?

Not really. I understand how it might seem that way, but heaven and hell are within the perception of the person. It's not like God checks you're employee file and gives you a promotion from level 1 (good communion) to level 2 (great communion). We all stand in one "place" (not a place as we understand space per se) before God, and it is our experience of him that is heaven or hell.

It depends on your direction. If you die heading towards God, you will live in eternity growing ever closer to Him. If you die running away from God, you will live in torment as you eternally run from Him, but He is everywhere and there is no longer a place to hide. (This is an oversimplification of a complex matter that I don't fully understand.)

That's why there's no purgatory in Orthodoxy- we will all stand before God in eternity. Our purification should happen on Earth, and if we are repentent in this life, our Theosis (becoming more like God, or, growing in His likeness) will continue into eternity, only without the temptations of the evil one to lead us astray.

If our hearts aren't prapared for repentence, we will have no way to know how to repent when we are faced with God. We will continue to flee from Him, and we'll live eternity in the "all-consuming fire" that is God. Fire that warms and comforts the faithful, and fire that burns and torments the wicked. This isn't punishment- it's a self inflicted inability to love,face to face with the One Who Is Love.

I hope I'm accurately representing The Church,
Moses

[The Prokeimenon!]

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.


Psalm 139 (KJV)

Moses

[entropy_rising]

Thanks.

[entropy_rising]

Just to contrast the Catholic standpoint (no God in Hell) to the Orthodox standpoint (Hell as a perpetual fear of and flight from an ominpresent God), are there any more Biblical verses the demonstrate the presence of God even in Hell?

[Matthias]

Wow, I have never heard of such references to God being in Hell. I was always taught as a Catholic that God was not in Hell.

[MariaRegina]

Dear Matthew:

Haven't you ever read the Psalms?


If I climb the highest mountain, You O God are there.

I cannot hide from Your Presence in the depth of Sheol.


God is everywhere, right? This is a basic idea taught to first graders in the Catholic Church.

in the Orthodox Church, we pray that God is everywhere present.

There is no difference between the Catholic and Orthodox teachings here.

[entropy_rising]

Suprisingly, friends, the Catholic teaching is that there is no God in Hell? Why? Because that is how we define Hell - simply as seperation from God. More than a place - a state of being That, in our eyes, is the ultimate suffering, since God is the source of all goodness.

[entropy_rising]

That's also why I'm interesting in seeing more Biblical or even Early Fathers support for the idea that God is everywhere.

[The Prokeimenon!]

That's also why I'm interesting in seeing more Biblical or even Early Fathers support for the idea that God is everywhere

Dear ER,

I wish I could help more but I only know of those Psalm verses, and in our prayers we almost always say "Heavenly King, Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, who art everywhere present and fillest all things..."

Hopefully somebody else will know of more Biblical/Patristic sources for the Omnipresence of God.

Moses

[MariaRegina]

One of the first catechism questions that I had to learn in first grade in the Catholic Church was:

Where is God? God is everywhere.

The Orthodox Church teaching is identical.

[Matthias]

Yeah, I was always taught that Hell is such a terrible place because we are separated from God.

Then again, I always thought it cancelled out the belief that God is everywhere.

[The Prokeimenon!]

My thoughts on that are: If you spend your whole life running from God, then to spend eternity without Him would be like a reward for your efforts....

if that makes any sense...

Moses

[Akathist]

Remember that in God and in the Kingdom there is no time or space. When one runs from God one is still in the presence of God, just wanting to be away.

About growing more and more like God, that also doesn't take place in time. Time and space doesn't exist in heaven as it does here.

Paul reminds us that now we see in the mirror darkly and then we will see clearly. We can not understand the things of heaven or afterlife while we are alive. It is beyond our comprehension.

I had asked the Priest because I wondered if I was wasting my time praying for my grandfather who as far as I know never accepted Jesus as his personal savior. (Although as an infant he was baptised and he did believe in God.) Of course the Priests answer was : "It is a mystery, but it is never a waste of time to pray."