Why should I be Orthodox? [Archive]

ShiFuBill

31st July 2004, 11:17 AM

I know I've introduced myself once before, but I have some fresh concerns and I won't assume everyone remembers me so I'll give a little background again.
I've been a Christian for many years, most of my life. After reading Eusibius' History of the Church, I began to study more about the Orthodox Church. I'm sure most of you went through a similar process of learning so I won't go through the details, but I came to realize that the way the Protestants do it isn't the way it was done from the start. And a lot of Orthodox theology fit the way I had thought all along on some things. I've long studied mysticism, and the Orthodox life/doctrine is the closest I've found toward leading a 'mystic' life in union with God. There
are things I'm having trouble understanding, mostly due to my Protestant up-bringing.
My question for you is this: Why should a person become Orthodox? I am convinced, at the moment, that I am a Christian & on my way to heaven. I also believe that most of the other Protestants that I know are as well. When I look at Protestants and read book by Protestant writers, I see a group that are dynamically trying to seek and serve the Lord. What are we missing that the Orthodox have?
I've been seeking, and finding as far as I'm able, a true relationship with God. For about a year now, God has been working on me, cleaning my life up, cleansing me of whatever is not of Him. This has been through a number of books (Thomas Merton, St. John of the Cross, AW Tozer, Andrew Murray, Rumi) as well as situations in my life I feel God is using to 'purgate' me. I'm short on Orthodox sources, and most of what I've read has been doctrinal or historical (Bish. Kallistos [Timothy] Ware). I just can't see right now why my relationship with God would improve if I became Orthodox. Is worship the way it was the way it MUST be? Could
Protestant spirituality be just as legitimate before God as any other?
My thoughts recently have bounced back and forth between wondering whether we need anything other than a commitment to Christ, to a dangerous almost Universalist idea, to wondering if the Orthodox isn't just exactly what it claims to be.
I'm really seeking here, so any help would be apreciated. Prayers are good too :-)

Dust and Ashes

31st July 2004, 11:36 AM

I highly recommend The Faith Series (The Faith, The Way, The Truth and The Life are the names of the individual books) by Clark Carlton. It does more than just get into doctrine but is a pretty effective Catechism and explores the depth of Orthodoxy such as the nature of God, our relationship to and with God. I couldn't even begin to explain the depths I have touched and how it has opened my spirit and mind to a deeper, more intimate knowledge of our Lord.

There is so much critical, life-changing knowledge held in the beliefs and practices of the Church that Protestants just don't know about and virtually all of the issues and disputes that cause such division among Protestants are simply non-issues to Orthodox as we know what was taught/believed by the Apostles and early Church Fathers.

But I am far from an expert, so someone more knowledgable and grounded, please provide more information than I possess.

Alfred M

31st July 2004, 11:52 AM

Dear SFB,

I see in your post a lot of my very own past. A few things you mention were the turning points for me as well, but the most important is that you want to seek truth. Think of the pearl merchant who spent all his life looking at pearls...he knew a LOT about pearls likely having looked at thousands. Yet when he found that one pearl he knew he had to sell all he had to purchase that one pearl. It was his pearl of great price. This is what we do also as we come to find our very own pearl of great price!

For many years, I spent my time church hopping and looking for that perfect church that believed AS I BELIEVED, for that was the only standard I could support. I could not find it. Yes, there were plenty of great people along the way doing many good things in the name of the Lord. And God will yet judge them just as He will judge each of us...by our hearts.

In Orthodoxy, you will find real Truth and the Holy Tradition that has maintained that Truth for nearly 2000 years. You will find the apostolic succession and you will find the worship of the ancient New Testament church. Do not trouble yourself with what others may be doing...find the real freedom that is found within Truth. You no longer have to decide for yourself for the Church has the Traditions carried on that have prevailed against the gates of hell. You may have a heart that is yet righteous before God, but you miss the taste of Heaven experienced in the Orthodox worship as we get to rise up to Heaven during the Liturgy and taste what is yet to come for us.

Come to the fulness of worship and the confession that will bring a peace that passes all understanding to your soul.

SOunds like everything is perfect, huh? Well, maybe not...for we are still humans and we all fall short...but I can tell you this, once you have tasted Holy Orthodoxy there will be no turning back!

Hope I did not just confuse you more!

In the love of our Saviour,

Alfred, chief of all sinners

Oblio

31st July 2004, 12:00 PM

Think of the Orthodox Church as a mighty battleship with Christ at it's helm. You can cross the ocean of life seeking the shore of salvation in her, or you can choose your personal yacht, rowboat or swim. Perhaps you could catch a ride on a merchant marine ship. Some of these may or may not get you to your destination, it is up to you to make a choice on which to take.

Cradle

31st July 2004, 12:06 PM

I think only people with protestant past can answer your concerns intelectually. I'm not in that category, so I don't think I can really provide any insight. However, if you are physically in Taiwan, have you considered visiting The Holy Trinity Orthodox Church in Taiwan (http://www.trinitylight.net/). Books are good, and the internet is an impressively helpful medium, but there's nothing like being in a real church and sharing your concerns with a priest, or even somebody else in person. It's likely that this Father Jonah writing in the site is native Chinese.

readerpaul

31st July 2004, 04:55 PM

Dear SFB: Let me offer two things to consider.

First is the Holy Eucharist. Orthodox are often asked by their Protestant brothers and sisters if their Church, which may seem from the outside so stiff and formal, permits them a "personal relationship" with the Lord Jesus? But we are afforded the great privilege of being offered, at each Divine Liturgy, the opportunity to feed on the Lord's Very Body and Blood: announced in the Old Testament, explained by Christ Himself (John 6), described by St. Paul, and insisted upon by the Church Fathers. The Eucharist Itself is reason enough to join the Church!

Second, ---and this may sound like a criticism, but isn't meant to be, since we all face the same challenges as believers---is the issue of authority: or put another way, how do you know? You say for example that you're convinced that you're going to heaven, that your life is drawing closer to Christ---but how do you, or any of us really know this? We can't. The evil one is constantly at work, lying, deceiving, distorting. Personally, I often want to take the easy way, the comfortable way---but perhaps not The Way. The anchor that we have that at least points us unswervingly in the right direction---if only I would follow its postings!---is the Church. It's only there that I find 2,000 years of unbroken tradition that points me toward God.

Pray for me, a sinner

ShiFuBill

1st August 2004, 02:09 AM

Akathist

1st August 2004, 03:22 AM

Thank you all for your encouraging words. I understand that the Orthodox Church has preserved the style from the first century. But the question I can't answer is does it HAVE to be that way?
Maybe it would help if anyone could tell me how their lives or closeness to God has changed since becoming Orthodox.
I just don't want to feel like I'm searching for God within the confines of one church, when it seems like He is much bigger than that. I've always felt there was a simple, basic truth that was inside all Christian teaching, and that was all that was needed.

I am still an inquirer but you asked to know ihow lives or closeness to God has changed and I can speak of my experience.

I am 40 years old. I was raised United Methodist and fell away from active church involvement in college (going to church about once a month at best.) After college I stopped going all together for about three years (although I still believed.) I then had a "conversion" experience and became very active in church again, but this time with a Pentacostal or NonDenominational leaning. This was all fine and good and I learned to read my bible and to pray and developed a good relationship with the Lord.

When I went to church I would leave feeling happy. Since I felt happy, it must be good. And I followed what the minister said to do: pray, read the bible, give money to the church, spend time helping others, spend time in fellowship with other church members, and live a good life with all effort not to sin.

I did all that was suggested (obligated) to do. Then I had some negative events occur to me. And no matter how much I prayed or even fasted, or asked others to pray for me, I was still miserable. And the church felt like a foreign land to me. Everyone else was feeling "happy" and I was not. I was an outsider.

So I started church shopping for a while and moved frequently for a time. But I continued (and do to this day) to read the bible and pray and give and help and strive to be holy. I found that my views about what the bible taught was changing and at all the churches I attended they would teach things that were not what I had read in the bible.

Not one church seemed to me to hit the mark. And I noticed that more and more church was becoming a media event, with video's and rock music and theatre. I noticed people flocking to one church because of the music and to another because of some other programing. And the importance of feeling "happy". (I was even told that if bad things happen or if God doesn't give me what I ask for in prayer it is because I was "lukewarm" or did not have enough faith. I was told this in more than one church setting.)

Then I had another time of hearbreak occur in my life and I didn't know where to turn except to prayer. I wanted Jesus, I wanted His Peace. And I knew that the churches I had been attending was not going to give this to me.

Then I learned more about the Holy Eucharist and when I "got it" that the bread and wine could become actually the body and blood of Jesus and how eating this results in the physical and spiritual presence of Jesus in us, I just knew this was what I was looking for.

I am a bit frustrated that when I feel the need the most to take Holy Communion, I am still denied it, but the church that holds the Holy Eucharist offers me somethign else. In worship, I am able to ask for help, for mercy and feel a kind of Peace come over me that is unbelievable. And the focus isn't on being entertained or on even being happy. The focus is on the Trinity and the Word.

I have come home.

ShiFuBill

1st August 2004, 11:52 AM

I hear you, Mr. ThornyGrace. I've been Baptist, Pentacostal, non-denominational, in no-church Communist lands, and now 'attending' Baptist services, but not one myself. And I'm just 28. I've also known the 'happy so it's good' idea of Church. I'm also tired of just trying to find Churches that fit ME. But now I'm having trouble with whether or not it's possible to find God better within one church, even if it is the original. Eucharist is a big factor, I think, but I've asked and asked and have yet to hear anyone tell me, except some Catholics, what the benefit of taking the Eucharist is.

Alfred M

1st August 2004, 12:39 PM

SFB,

That is a good question...it shows you are really applying thought to your situation.
Many times the issues that deal with the Orthodox view on the Eucharist are based in the question...what in the world does the Eucharist have to do with salvation?

You must realize that "the Eucharist" cannot be viewed as a 'thing'. The Eucharist is our union in Christ. Communion with God and with each other is what salvation is all about. Therefore to ask if one has to have communion with God and his brethren may be odd to the Orthodox. You could say the same thing about marriage. You can be married and then sleep in different bedrooms, eat at different times, have little to no conversation...but what is missing? You are missing true communion with your spouse.

It is the same with communion in the Eucharist. One's participation in the Eucharist (which always includes the entire gathering of the Church, not just the blessed elements) is not to "get saved", but to participate, realize, and manifest the communion Christ has made possible. This commuion has no limit, and is something that will take all of eternity to fulfil. (thus a mystery of the Church)

The Eucharist is your relationship with Christ and His body...the Church...your brethren; the eucharist is an expression of the catholicity of God's kingdom...we are joined in Christ's body and through that union we are joined with our brethren; the Eucharist is our covenant through this Holy meal we share; the Eucharist is ours only as a community...no individual alone can be "the body of Christ" and thus it is not a private individual expression...'the body of Christ (the church) receives the body of Christ'. One cannot be members of Christ's body without being at the same time members of one another.

In all these things the Eucharist is what brings it all together. It is how we come alive in Christ and realize the image of God that is within us.

Sorry for the rambling. ( some of the above info is from the book "Common Ground"). In the love of our Saviour,
Alfred

Akathist

1st August 2004, 01:53 PM

I spoke about why I am wanting the Holy Communion so much in another thread. I can't find that post to copy it but it is something like this:

I figured out that God is in all matter. All matter... inside all atoms literally. So, therefore I finally understood that the Lord can actually change the bread and wine into His blood and body. Now, remember, when you eat anything, a little bit of that thing you eat goes into all of your body's cells in some ways. And also, in some cases, what you consume also effects you spiritually. (Example, consuming crack cocaine is like consuming a demon.) So the consumption of the Body and Blood of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, the Only-Begotton of the Father, God Almighty (who is of the same substance of the Father, by whom all things are created) is a very powerful event.

I will be able to connect to the Trinity more fully through this sacrement. (Assuming that I take the sacrament as honorably. For if I should not be taking it and I do, the Bible says that it could result in poor health and spiritual damage.) Think about it, it must be a very powerful sacrament if people have actually died because they took it while hiding a sin. (I can't think of the verse in the Bible, but I believe it is in Acts... something about people who handled the Church's money wrong and took communion.)

ShiFuBill

2nd August 2004, 02:33 AM

Hmm, something readerpaul said before came back to me. The Church as authority. I remember when I was a Pentacostal a preacher bemoaning the fact that there were so many small Pentacostal churches that wouldn't come under the authority of a denomination. I suppose if being under authority is the natural way of things (to dip into Taoist philosophy) then it would make sense that God would establish an authoritative body to carry His teachings.

Just musing.

ShiFuBill

2nd August 2004, 02:45 AM

Double post, sorry, er, I should say something, uh, uh....Roll Tide!!!

Dalibor

2nd August 2004, 08:44 AM

Hi ShiFuBill

One very good reason you should become Orthodox is baptism. "Repent, and let every one of you be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38)
Apostles were given special authority and special functions that were not given to all his followers (Matt 16:19, 18:18, John 20:22). The Apostolic ministry has been passed down in the Church by the laying of hands (cf Acts 14:23, 1Tim4:13), and continues today in the priesthood of the Orthodox Church. The right to perform the Sacraments of Baptism, Holy Communion and of the laying of the hands was passed on exclusively by apostolic succession, since the apostles selected bishops, priests and deacons. In Orthodox Church apostolic succession is unbroken therefore Orthodox Christians can receive gifts of Holy Spirit through Baptism. Protestant priests don't possess the power to baptise since they don’t have apostolic succession. Protestant baptism is a non-valid one.
The same Holy Spirit that inspired the Scriptures is promised to guide the Church unto all truth and preserve her from error (cf John 16:13). Holy Spirit lives in the Church (cf John 14:26). People cannot acquire Holy Spirit outside of the One Church.
Hoping you make the right choice and join OC.

Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta

2nd August 2004, 08:57 AM

Dalibor

2nd August 2004, 09:19 AM

Hi, Dalibor!:wave: I don't think I've seen youpost here before, so I just wanted to say welcome to TAW. I put in bold a statement you made in your post because I've been told that many Orthodox churches do accept protestant baptisms as being valid if they were Trinitarian.

Thank you for your welcome.

That cannot possibly be truth about protestant baptism. If it were true then there would be no need to ordain priests in OC anymore since any laity in Protestant churches can baptise people and perform sacraments as well. Then I might as well build my own church, gather people around and baptise them myself. That would be theological madness. It simply doesn’t work that way.

ShiFuBill

2nd August 2004, 10:21 AM

I think what Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta is true, even in the early times of the Church, if someone was baptised by a scismatic bishop they were allowed to enter into communion with the Church if they were baptised in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Orthodox mMarriages are allowed today to be preformed today if one person is not Orthodox so long as they were likewise baptised. What I read in Eusibius, probably quoting someone else, was that God would recognize it based on the faith of the beliver seeking true baptism.
But I do understand your point about the importance of baptism. Thank you.

Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta

2nd August 2004, 10:28 AM

Thank you for your welcome.

That cannot possibly be truth about protestant baptism. If it were true then there would be no need to ordain priests in OC anymore since any laity in Protestant churches can baptise people and perform sacraments as well. Then I might as well build my own church, gather people around and baptise them myself. That would be theological madness. It simply doesn’t work that way.
I respectfully disagree. There are numerous protestants here in TAW that were received by Chrismation only. And of course, one must be chrismated in the Orthodox Church in order to partake of the sacraments. Of course, there are probably some variations amongst diocese on this. Ultimately it is up to the bishop to determine if an Orthodox baptism is necessary (if someone was already baptised protestant). An Orthodox member can marry a non-Orthodox person if that person has had a Trinitarian baptism. They will not do it if the person was not baptised and has no desire to become a member of the Church.

Akathist

2nd August 2004, 12:30 PM

The priest told me that my baptism would most likely be accepted and I was baptized first as a baby in the United Methodist Church then as an adult in the Holiness (Trinitarian) Pentecostal Church. (Trinitarian=believes in the Holy Trinity. Some Pentecostals branches are monotheist.)

However, on another note. I agree that one of the reason for the proliferation of protestant church denominations is the thought that a central authority is not needed. This is another reason to become Orthodox.

Protestants believe the only authority is the Holy Scriptures. (Though each denomination do respect their own leadership.) Roman Catholics believe the only authority is the Pope of Rome.

Orthodox believe that authority is based upon the Holy Scriptures and the Traditions of the Apostles (things Jesus taught that was not put into Canons), as well as the Holy Spirit inspired teachings of the church Fathers.

At least this is my current understanding. I am also an inquirer so I might not have a full understanding.

ShiFuBill

2nd August 2004, 09:36 PM

Protestants believe the only authority is the Holy Scriptures. (Though each denomination do respect their own leadership.)

Sort of. When they don't, well, that's why there are so many.

The Prokeimenon!

2nd August 2004, 10:43 PM

Bill.... I think you're getting the hang of this! :D

Katherine

Rilian

2nd August 2004, 11:15 PM

Akathist

3rd August 2004, 01:05 AM

I can't go back to the church I used to attend. I see it now as theatre and rock music and a "self help" pep talk with bible references (not always out of content to be fair.)

I understand now what real worship is and how it transforms a person in a very deep yet subtle fashion and I can't turn back.

One can not visit heaven on Saturday night and Sunday morning and go about their lives as if there is no God.

linden branch

3rd August 2004, 01:31 AM

Hello ShiFuBill,

Here is how I would answer your question.

God's salvific plan intimately involves the Church and engages the whole man, and not merely the intellect. This is why the nature of the Church is sacramental, with creation serving as means for the manifestation of God's gracious salvation.

The Church is more than a contemporary gathering of like minded individuals, but is rather a holy communion, in which we are members who are cooperative and codependent, and not autonomous individuals who come together because of mutual interest or benefit (like a club or association). This unity is primarily accomplished through the Eucharist, which is more than merely a memorial or a symbol of our unity, but is the substance and basis for your communion with both Christ and each other, for through it we partake of, and are joined to, our Lord Jesus Christ. This is why the Eucharist serves as the heart of the Church's sacramentality, because it is the most tangible manifestation of the continued presence of Christ in our midst.

Another reason for joining the Orthodox Church is that as the most faithful ecclesial community, she is best able to aid you in your sanctification. Because Satan seeks to distract us from the Truth, and deceive us by propagating a multitude of heretical sects, Orthodoxy maintains the three-fold witness to Christ's truth that has been established by the Apostles themselves, i.e., the Scripture, written by the Apostles, Tradition, taught by the Apostles, and Episcopal Apostolic Succession, ordination by the Apostles. By remaining faithful to these three marks, the Orthodox Church maintains the most intimate connection to the Apostles, and thus to our Lord Jesus Christ, and is therefore best positioned to deliver to those who desire it, the faith and life of the Apostles.

Finally, the communion of the Church cannot be limited to the present. Through Christ, the unity of the Church transcends time and space to encompass both the geographical as well as historical limits of the Church. This is why it is so crucial for the Church to maintain continuity with the faith of past godly generations, because we share one Church with them. There voice must continue to be heard today, not only for the wisdom found there (although there is certainly much to be said for seeking out the spiritual insight these many saintly men and women have gained through their own struggles rather than attempting to discover everything on our own), but because it is a crucial reminder of the their very real presence with us and among us as we worship. This is one motivation for iconography, to provide us with visuals to this reality. We do not worship alone, but instead, when we enter into the Divine liturgy, a unity of both space and time is achieved, for we both hearken back to the past as well as pull back the veil to our future, and in our worship we have true solidarity with every Orthodox faithful throughout the world (which is, incidentally, why the Orthodox do not conduct more than one liturgy per day, since the Liturgy is not multiple local celebrations, but rather the one celebration of the universal Church manifested locally).

This does not mean that all of those within Orthodoxy take advantage of this multiplicity of grace, but it does mean that for those who do desire it, these benefits are there for the taking.

I hope this is in some way helpful.

God bless,

The Prokeimenon!

3rd August 2004, 01:42 AM

Linden,

That's a GREAT answer!

K.

Ainesis

3rd August 2004, 12:55 PM

Hi,

I am not a member of the Orthodox church nor am I considering converting. However, I have been blessed by the exchange here and just wanted to say thank you to all who have replied so thoughtfully.

God Bless!

Patristic

3rd August 2004, 01:06 PM

Alright, this is my response to those in the general theology forum who argued against becoming Orthodox. The main thrust of their argument was that they could not see the need for an authoritative Tradition because Scripture maintained such a high position of authority and importance among the early Christians. In other words, why is Tradition necessary when God seems to place such a special emphasis on His written revelation to mankind, the Scriptures? The first response I will adduce to answer this question is that Orthodox do highly value and treasure Scripture. Within Tradition, it stands at the pinnacle and receives a preeminence among all other forms of revelation and teaching. I like how Bishop Kallistos Ware puts it in His book The Orthodox Church.

"The Christian Church is a Scriptural Church: Orthodoxy believes this just as firmly, if not more firmly, than Protestantism. The Bible is the supreme expression of God's revelation to the human race, and Christians must always be 'People of the Book'. But if Christians are People of the Book, the Bible is the Book of the People; it must not be regarded as something set up over the Church, but as something that lives and is understood within the Church (that is why one should not separate Scripture and Tradition)."

I know it's an imperfect analogy, but it's one that works to make this specific point. The relationship between the Bible and the Church could be approached from the same perspective one looks at the relationship between our government and the Constitution. The Constitution is the written document that is the law of the land; it is authoritative and everyone looks to it for the legal and governmental framework of this country. Now, if one were to argue that everyone who is an American citizen has the right to interpret the Constitution for themselves because they are Americans this country would quickly disintegrate into a chaotic swell of innumerable varying and conflicting interpretations. Nobody would know who is right because everyone would be claiming their view was right and would be doing so under the authority of the Constitution. Instead, we have a government who is the final arbiter in these matters and who possesses the authority to officially declare exactly what the Constitution is saying. Likewise, there is a Church established for the express of faithfully expositing the Scriptues and acting as the final arbiter on doctrine when disagreements arise. Just like the government does not set itself above the Constitution, so the Church is not above the Scriptures, but both are necessary for the Church.

Scripture is definitely emphasized in the Orthodox Church and not relegated to the dustbin of authoritative teaching. It is prized and revered, but is ultimately properly understood within the Church through the lens of Tradition and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit leading the Church. Furthermore, it is important to remember that Christ did not come to earth to write a book, but to found His Church. A majority of the NT literature is comprised of Epistles which were written to various church bodies in a time of crisis. These weren't written to be a systematic treatise covering every area of the faith, but as a measure to deal with the specific heresies and quarrels that had arisen within individual communities. I like how the Apostle John stated it when he writes in his second epistle, "Although I have much to write to you, I do not intend to use paper and ink. Instead, I hope to visit you and to speak face to face so that our joy may be complete." 2 John 1:12

John's writings were very important, but they did not contain all he desired to share. That's why adherence to Tradition is deemed vitally important by the Orthodox Church because it shares the rest of the story.

The Prokeimenon!

3rd August 2004, 01:17 PM

Ainesis,

Thanks for your kind words. Welcome to TAW!

Katherine

Ainesis

3rd August 2004, 02:19 PM

"The Christian Church is a Scriptural Church: Orthodoxy believes this just as firmly, if not more firmly, than Protestantism. The Bible is the supreme expression of God's revelation to the human race, and Christians must always be 'People of the Book'. But if Christians are People of the Book, the Bible is the Book of the People; it must not be regarded as something set up over the Church, but as something that lives and is understood within the Church (that is why one should not separate Scripture and Tradition)."I agree. However, perhaps our understanding of the "church" is not the same here.

I know it's an imperfect analogy, but it's one that works to make this specific point. The relationship between the Bible and the Church could be approached from the same perspective one looks at the relationship between our government and the Constitution. The Constitution is the written document that is the law of the land; it is authoritative and everyone looks to it for the legal and governmental framework of this country. Now, if one were to argue that everyone who is an American citizen has the right to interpret the Constitution for themselves because they are Americans this country would quickly disintegrate into a chaotic swell of innumerable varying and conflicting interpretations. Nobody would know who is right because everyone would be claiming their view was right and would be doing so under the authority of the Constitution. Instead, we have a government who is the final arbiter in these matters and who possesses the authority to officially declare exactly what the Constitution is saying. Likewise, there is a Church established for the express of faithfully expositing the Scriptues and acting as the final arbiter on doctrine when disagreements arise. Just like the government does not set itself above the Constitution, so the Church is not above the Scriptures, but both are necessary for the Church.Excellent points and analogy. My question would be that the "final arbiter" according to Scripture is the Holy Spirit. Is there Scripture you know of that says it is the church?

Scripture is definitely emphasized in the Orthodox Church and not relegated to the dustbin of authoritative teaching. It is prized and revered, but is ultimately properly understood within the Church through the lens of Tradition and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit leading the Church. Furthermore, it is important to remember that Christ did not come to earth to write a book, but to found His Church. A majority of the NT literature is comprised of Epistles which were written to various church bodies in a time of crisis. These weren't written to be a systematic treatise covering every area of the faith, but as a measure to deal with the specific heresies and quarrels that had arisen within individual communities. Okay. Valid points.

I like how the Apostle John stated it when he writes in his second epistle, "Although I have much to write to you, I do not intend to use paper and ink. Instead, I hope to visit you and to speak face to face so that our joy may be complete." 2 John 1:12

John's writings were very important, but they did not contain all he desired to share. That's why adherence to Tradition is deemed vitally important by the Orthodox Church because it shares the rest of the story.Thank you!

Ainesis

3rd August 2004, 02:20 PM

Ainesis,

Thanks for your kind words. Welcome to TAW!

KatherineAhhhh, thanks! :pink:

Mary of Bethany

3rd August 2004, 04:07 PM

I came to realize there were a lot of problems and deficiencies in Protestantism, but I don't think that was the main reason I converted. I think I came to the realization over time that the Orthodox Church contained the fullness of truth and had maintained it going back to the time of the Apostles and Christ himself. I think once I came to this conclusion, and experienced the liturgy itself, I just felt like going back would just be playing with only some pieces of the puzzle.
That's how it was for me. Having left non-sacramental Christianity behind, I had the sacraments and beautiful liturgy in the Anglican church. But it wasn't the fullness of the faith. I am still finding out just how true that is - there is so much more to Orthodoxy - that seamless whole that someone else mentioned - that isn't found anywhere else.

Rilian

3rd August 2004, 04:12 PM

Yeah, we went to an Episcopal Church for a couple of years as well Mary. It was an important step, but ultimately not what I was looking for.

Patristic

3rd August 2004, 08:24 PM

Excellent points and analogy. My question would be that the "final arbiter" according to Scripture is the Holy Spirit. Is there Scripture you know of that says it is the church? There really isn't one Scripture that states outright that the Church is the final arbiter of the truth. I think everyone will agree that it is the Spirit who guides and leads into all truth; That is why the Church has always understood John 14:26 as referring to the Church. Jesus spoke to the Apostles corporately and it was the Apostles who were led by the Spirit to define matters related to the faith for the entire Church. That is why the council of Jerusalem in it's letter recorded in Acts chapter 15 writes in verse 28, "it is the decision of the Holy Spirit and of us not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities." It is the Holy Spirit who teaches and leads us into the truth, but He uses the Church as His conduit to declare those truths.

Akathist

3rd August 2004, 09:00 PM

When you think of it, isn't it better that direction of the Holy Spirit come through a body of people and not from one?

When there has been a single "inspired" individual who said they knew the "Truth" and the "Truth" is opposed to Holy Traditions of the Church.. this has not resulted in a change to the Church, but instead a schism. (Or break from the church.)

Outside of RC and EO, similar situations has led to cults. It amazes me when people talk about RC and EO being a "cult" because typically the ones who say that are influenced more by these radical "visionaries" that believe only they "know" the truth.

Visions of kool aid and dead children come to my mind when I think obout this. UGHHH

Eusebios

3rd August 2004, 10:31 PM

I just wanted to say that I think all the answers and the questions in this thread are some of the best that I have seen anywhere on CF in the recent past. The depth of both wisdom and honest personal sharing have been outstanding and I think exemplify what should be the norm on these boards.
So many have shared so beautifully, that I feel at somewhat of a loss to try to add anything to it, but for what it is worth, here goes:
I took a similar route to the door of the Orthodox Church as have many converts, and according to the posts in this thread, a path vert similar to some of the posters. I was raised United Methodist, went to the Evangelical Free Church throughout my teens and early twenties, did about 4 years in Charismatic circles followed by brief stints in, The Reformed Church, the Conservative Congregational Christian Conference, the home church movement (actually lived in Christian community at this point) and the Church of the Brethren. A cross country moved finally brought me into contact with Holy Orthodoxy, and it just answered the questions that had been nagging me, such as how do we take the Gospel of John, where the Lord states:
John 6:53-55?
Also, how does one experience real community?
What does true worship look like?
But the thing that really convinced me if you will was the effect that a small but very powerful prayer had on me, The Jesus prayer:
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. It's simplicity belies the dramatic effect it had on my life. It absolutely revitalized my entire prayer life. Little did I realize that it was only the beginning of the incredible depth of prayer that I would find within the Church. I also finally found a balanced approach to the Holy Scriptures and the lens of the Church and Holy Tradition opened them up for me in a way I never dreamed of, particularly the Old Testament, wow!
Anyway, I've rambled too much, just wanted to relate a little of what it's meant for me.
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/greymooncrest/OrthoPrayer.gif

Eusebios

3rd August 2004, 10:41 PM

And darn it, I can't rep anyone here anymore!! :D
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/greymooncrest/OrthoPrayer.gif

Michael the Iconographer

3rd August 2004, 10:59 PM

Yeah, we went to an Episcopal Church for a couple of years as well Mary. It was an important step, but ultimately not what I was looking for.

I know I have said this before, so please forgive me for sounding like a broken record. The night I was Chrismated after the Chrismation was done, Fr. Basil said to me "Michael, do not think of this as leaving your Catholic faith behind, but think of this as the fulfillment of your Catholic faith."

Michael the Iconographer

3rd August 2004, 10:59 PM

Hey Eusebios,
Nice Cross in your sig file! I wonder where you found it? :)

Michael the Iconographer

3rd August 2004, 11:01 PM

And darn it, I can't rep anyone here anymore!! :D
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/greymooncrest/OrthoPrayer.gif

Why can't you rep anyone anymore? Do you need to spread some reps arround before giving it back to us?

Eusebios

3rd August 2004, 11:19 PM

Why can't you rep anyone anymore? Do you need to spread some reps arround before giving it back to us?
You hit the nail on the head my friend! I'm surprised I haven't gotten the "you've used up your daily rep limit" message thingy after going through this wonderful thread. Seriously, I get frustrated with the inane stuff in some forums and even in threads here in TAW, this one is special.
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/greymooncrest/OrthoPrayer.gif
p.s. like my new image in the sig Iconographer?

Eusebios

3rd August 2004, 11:25 PM

Yeah, my new sig file image is in fact a cross done by our own "Iconographer" Sorry about the temporary hijacking of this thread. Now back to our regularly scheduled programming! :)

ShiFuBill

4th August 2004, 06:28 AM

Lots of good advice here, everyone. Keep the good stuff comming. In case anyone wants to go see I asked "Why shouldn't I be Orthodox?" in the General Theology forum. Just to be fair.
bd

Matthias

5th August 2004, 08:59 AM

Do you do any martial arts, dude?

ShiFuBill

5th August 2004, 10:25 AM

No, I'm thinking about taking it up, but not yet. The nephew of Bruce Lee's trainer Yip Man has a school out here.
bd

Matthias

5th August 2004, 07:37 PM

That's awesome!

All4Christ

5th August 2004, 11:36 PM

Orthosdoxa

6th August 2004, 12:45 AM

Hi A4C,

That is a conumdrum and I understand what you're saying. I've known of others in the exact same situation.

I don't think you're really a child anymore, so that verse seems non-applicable. Yet, you do live in their house. My husband was in that situation when he first started to look to Orthodoxy, too. It DID create conflict between them. Then again, there was conflict with my Baptist mother when I converted, too, and at that point I hadn't lived at home for 7 or 8 years.

I would say, take it slow. Read a lot, ask a lot of questions here or any RL Orthodox friends you have. Definitely don't hide or sneak around, but I don't see what would be wrong with going to some services. You could start with Vespers, which is on Saturday nights, usually, and if your parents ask, tell them it's a prayer service, which it is. Start small, I guess is what I'm saying.

Keep us posted!

Katherine

Matthias

6th August 2004, 12:48 AM

Need any suggestions for martial arts?

Akathist

6th August 2004, 02:23 AM

I would say that respecting your parents ("honoring") is not the same as never doing anything they don't understand or accept once you are an adult. As an adult, you have responsibilities to them, to treat them kindly and to take care of them if they need that kind of help (and eventually they will.) But I think that as you slowly being to explore a different faith than them, you can start switching to different services.

However, that said, I would really caution you against trying to convince them that EO is the correct path or to try and convince them to change faiths as well. That might happen in time, but when you are new, it can really put people off. Answer any question they have for you simply (including saying "I don't know") but don't go out of your way to teach them.

MariaRegina

6th August 2004, 03:27 PM

I would be in a similar situation to the OP of the thread. I too am trying to figure out whether Orthodoxy is the place where I should be. However, I have a question. If I do decide that Orthodoxy is correct, then how should I handle the commandment, "Children, obey your parents, for this is right." or "honor your father and mother". You see, I still live in my parents' house, and....they do not approve of Orthodoxy at all. So, do I attend both services? The Orthodox and the Pentecostal services? Do I let them know that I'm thinking about attending services? Do I just figure out what I believe first and then let them know?

I look forward to feedback as this is one of my greatest hinderances to exploring Orthodoxy more fully.

Dear All4Christ:

I am not longer living with my mom, and good thing, as she is very anti-Catholic and anti-Orthodox.

I was told by my priest that the guilt trips, which she tries to put me on whenever I visit or call her, are not of God. She tries to put me down so that I will be her slave. She told me that I wasn't obeying God as I do not go to her church. Furthermore, she keeps trying to force me to go see Benny Hinn.

Only because I am married is she leaving me alone. Otherwise, I'd still be under her rule.

I've prayed for her for many years, however, she persists in her errors and refused to let my dad see a Priest before he died.

Please pray for her. She has poisoned all my younger siblings against me saying we don't even worship the same God. I'm beginning to believe that.

O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us and save us.

Prayerfully in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

ShiFuBill

7th August 2004, 12:01 AM

MariaRegina

7th August 2004, 04:42 AM

I amazingly found 3 books on Orthodoxy at the local English bookstore in Taipei 101. I bought two. One is by Gillquist. One thing that I'm trying now is Apostolic sucession. It seems a lot of Orthodox claims, including the right to preform the Eucharist, is tied up in this. What can anyone tell me about it, pro or con? What is it, where did it (the idea of it) come from, who has it?

I'll start the ball rolling:

Apostolic Succession is the belief that a bishop can trace his lineage (laying on of hands at his episcopal ordination) directly to one of the 12 Apostles.

To ensure that a new Bishop has validly received consecration, three Bishops will ordain him to the bisropic.

OrthodoxyUSA

8th August 2004, 12:43 AM

Because: Only a priest can forgive and retain sins. (John 20:23)
Because: The Eucharist is properly performed and can heal body and soul
Because: "The Orthodox Church" existed before scripture
Because: Scripture was written by "The Orthodox Church" in support of "Holy Tradition"
Because: Proper "Holy Tradition" is held only by "The Orthodox Church"
Because: "The Orthodox Church" has not and will not change
Because: "The Orthodox Church" has not removed any part of scripture that it bound together (apocrypha)
Because: We experience heaven on earth while celebrating the "Devine Liturgy"
Because: "The Orthodox Church" does not claim to be infalliable
Because: Roman Papalcy is wrong
Because: "The Orthodox Church" has never condoned violence towards individuals (burning at the stake, etc.)
Because: It is the Church that Christ established (Peter was the Patriarch of Antioch first)

etc etc etc

Forgive me...:priest:

Akathist

8th August 2004, 12:59 AM

Orthodoxy has what I see to be the fulfillment of the Christian faith.

Everyday I find out more and more about how the beliefs I have been taught but never agreed with are different than the Orthodox faith. Today it was the "once saved always saved." theology. I never agreed with that. And I found out today that Orthodoxy doesn't teach that.

ShiFuBill

8th August 2004, 01:33 AM

Because: "The Orthodox Church" does not claim to be infalliable

From what I understood from reading Bp. Kallistos Ware, the Church as a whole, not just one person, has infalliblility. Is that right?

PS: Should I capitalize the entire first names of bishops? Why is that often done?
bd

Michael the Iconographer

8th August 2004, 03:26 PM

From what I understood from reading Bp. Kallistos Ware, the Church as a whole, not just one person, has infalliblility. Is that right?

PS: Should I capitalize the entire first names of bishops? Why is that often done?
bd

Orthodox infallibility is very much different than Catholic infallibility. It takes a couple Ecumenical Councils and several hundred years for something to be infallible in Orthodoxy. Example: The Nicene-Constantinopalitan Creed was written at the councils of Nicea and Constantinople and has gone unchanged for 1600 years. The Church can be seen as being infallible in writing the Creed because it has stood the test of time and many heresies which have tried to unseat this cornerstone of Orthodoxy and yet has come out unscathed (with the exception of the Romans trying to add the filioque to it). This infalliblity granted to the entire Church throughout the centuries is a very long drawn out thing and very different than Papal Infallibility as Rome declared it at Vatican I.

Capitalizing the entire name of Bishops is done out of respect for the Bishop. When a Bishop signs his name he always preceeds it with a cross +.

OrthodoxyUSA

8th August 2004, 09:14 PM

What about Kosovo? Didn't the Serbian Orthodox Church support "military action" there? (By the way, I agree with the Serbs in this area I'm not trying to say they were wrong, just that this statement might not be accurate. Also, if memory serves, wasn't there military action in the name of Orthodoxy back when Rome sacked Constantinople?

Otherwise, I agree with what you are saying. Orthodoxy has what I see to be the fulfillment of the Christian faith.

Everyday I find out more and more about how the beliefs I have been taught but never agreed with are different than the Orthodox faith. Today it was the "once saved always saved." theology. I never agreed with that. And I found out today that Orthodoxy doesn't teach that.
Thanks for that I should have been clearer... I have edited my post....

Forgive me...:priest: