The real deal on the law

[rob64]

Hopefully, this will put to rest anymore hubbub about the issue of the law, (any of it) and if we are still under it.

WE were never under the law in the first place! WE are gentiles! The law and all of it's parts were given to JEWS!

ANY mention of the law in the NT was addressed to JEWS! NOT TO YOU AND I, unless of course we are indeed a JEW!

Someone in the NT said that WE - gentiles - were grafted in, as a result of the Jew's rejection of Christ as their Messiah. WE were grafted into the NEW COVENANT. Not the law. Grafted into grace.

WE are to obey JESUS' commandments-Love the Lord your God...and your neighbor as yourself.

Peace!

[Kelly]

Thanks for that. I've been posting less here lately because of all the legalistic 'cut and paste' ministry going on.

[SoundCard]

I'm with ya man, but believe me, he's going to start posting that same nonsense in here soon enough.

[rob64]

Thanks for that. I've been posting less here lately because of all the legalistic 'cut and paste' ministry going on.

Wise words my friend, wise indeed!

[rob64]

I'm with ya man, but believe me, he's going to start posting that same nonsense in here soon enough.

Ha ha! I know... Probably trying to google up an response!

[kat69]

Ha ha! I know... Probably trying to google up an response!

LOL...I think you're probably right.:D

[Bryan Cotton]

WE were never under the law in the first place! WE are gentiles! The law and all of it's parts were given to JEWS!


Amen to that.

Not only that, but when people quote the bible when Jesus says "Think not that I am come to destroy THE LAW, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." in Matthew 5:17.

Doesn't fullfill mean to render full, i.e. to complete.

Sort of like birth. You start as a sperm cell. White with a tail. But through the fullfilment of brith through the womans womb, you become a baby. The baby did not replace the sperm, the sprem was fullfilled into it's completeness, a baby. The baby is no longer white with a tail, more like flesh color with a buttocks.

Does that make sense or Am I like way off?

[Michael_]

Thanks for that. I've been posting less here lately because of all the legalistic 'cut and paste' ministry going on.

Agreed... and I'm brand new!

[Cassidy]

And even Jesus' commandments about love is taken care of by the Holy Ghost. So if you're spirit led then the love of God will be shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost.

[Mrs Butterworth]

The way I understand it is that the law sets a standard of how we are supposed to behave. That standard is very clear cut without any room to move. We live under grace. The purpose of grace is not to abuse it by doing anything we want to do, but so that we can have a personal relationship with God, and so that we can, with God's counsel, work out our problems. So the law and grace are both important and useful.

[Cassidy]

Correction - Jesus has set the standard as to how we should live. So that if we lean on Him then we can be assured that His standards will then become our standards.

[rob64]

The purpose of this thread was to make an attemt to refute the ones who claim that we are still under some law. Either the 10 commandments, or the Levitical law. In another thread, someone brought it up, and it took off. Nobody addressed the fact that we were never under the law in the first place. Thus...this thread.

When people start understanding the whole of the Bible, and the truth, they can spot something fake very easily. Which is lacking at CF.

I also think we should expose any false teaching, because the counterfeit stuff leads people astray.

What do you think?

[rob64]

Amen to that.

Not only that, but when people quote the bible when Jesus says "Think not that I am come to destroy THE LAW, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." in Matthew 5:17.

Doesn't fullfill mean to render full, i.e. to complete.

Sort of like birth. You start as a sperm cell. White with a tail. But through the fullfilment of brith through the womans womb, you become a baby. The baby did not replace the sperm, the sprem was fullfilled into it's completeness, a baby. The baby is no longer white with a tail, more like flesh color with a buttocks.

Does that make sense or Am I like way off?

Exactly, my brother! :thumbsup: Exellent point indeed!

[rob64]

Agreed... and I'm brand new!

Thanx for that! I'm pretty new myself, but, welcome!
I see "Indy" , Y'all from Indiana? I'm a hoosier.

[rob64]

And even Jesus' commandments about love is taken care of by the Holy Ghost. So if you're spirit led then the love of God will be shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost.

Exactly! ^_^ GOOD STUFF!!! Grace says, "I have already done everything for you!" He even gives us the faith to believe, and get the ball rolling!

[rob64]

The way I understand it is that the law sets a standard of how we are supposed to behave. That standard is very clear cut without any room to move. We live under grace. The purpose of grace is not to abuse it by doing anything we want to do, but so that we can have a personal relationship with God, and so that we can, with God's counsel, work out our problems. So the law and grace are both important and useful.

In God's ultimate plan of salvation for us, Justification by faith came first. Then He gave the law, to show the people of their time their need of redemption back to God. All parts of any law given, was given to JEWS. WE, the Bible says were "GRAFTED IN" . We weren't grafted into the law, we were grafted into salvation/justification by FAITH in Jesus Christ.
The Jews rejected Christ, so God opened it up for us.

I haven't made any of this up, it's all Bible.

If the Jews would have accepted Christ as their Messiah, what do you think the outcome would have been?

[Bryan Cotton]

I also think we should expose any false teaching, because the counterfeit stuff leads people astray.

What do you think?

Although I prefer to disucc and learn rightoues teachings opposed to debate them with people who already have there minds made up no matter what you say, I think exposing false teachings is what we are suppose to do.

Maybe this is what paul meant when he wrote in 2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

[rob64]

Although I prefer to disucc and learn rightoues teachings opposed to debate them with people who already have there minds made up no matter what you say, I think exposing false teachings is what we are suppose to do.

Maybe this is what paul meant when he wrote in 2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

I must admit, I'm alway's ready for a good debate. Although my motive is not nessessarily aimed at who I'm debating, rather, anyone who may be reading.

Good quote! (from 2 Tim.) Forgot about that one!

[cavell]

"Before I preach love, mercy and grace, I must preach sin, Law and judgment." - John Wesley

"I do not believe that any man can preach the gospel who does not preach the Law" - Charles Spurgeon

“The essence of the Law should be unsparingly applied to the conscience until the sinner's self righteousness is annihilated and he stands speechless and self condemned before a holy God.” - Charles Finney

"The first duty of the Gospel preacher is to declare God's Law and show the nature of sin, because it will act as a schoolmaster and bring him to everlasting life which is in Jesus Christ." - Martin Luther

"God's grace cannot be faithfully preached to unbelievers until the Law is preached and man's corrupt nature is exposed. It is impossible for a person to fully realize his need for God's grace until he sees how terribly he has failed the standards of God's Law." - John MacArthur

"It is a great mistake to give a man who has not been convicted of sin certain passages that were never meant for him. The Law is what he needs … Do not offer the consolation of the gospel until he sees and knows he is guilty before God. We must give enough of the Law to take away all self-righteousness. I pity the man who preaches only one side of the truth, always the gospel and never the Law." - D.L. Moody

[Mrs Butterworth]

Cavell thank you for clarifying things. One of the problems with this thread and most of the threads is that things are not clearly defined. More needs to be done to accurately define the law in order to debate it's importance but at least we have a start. In the context of what Cavells quoted preachers are talking about, "the law" refers to a standard of behaviors (what is wrong and what is right).

Cassidy, Jesus lived this standard. We need standards so that we know what we must live up to. Only a perfect sinless person can live up to these standards we need grace so that we can work out our problems with God. This is not a magical thing. Dealing with sin is work, it is difficult to do as we all know.

Take for example standardized testing in the schools. A standard is set, and this standard is based on what one needs to know in order to function in society (for example certain reading proficiency levels and math ability) Without this standard how would anyone know how they measure up? How could we chart progress? How would we know where we stand in relation to what we need to know in order to function well in society? We need standards and in Christianity those standards are the law.

The law shows us our sin. If there was no law how would we know that we were sinning? How could the Holy Spirit convict us? As parents we tell our children what is expected of them. We have standards and rules. How would they behave if we had no rules and did not tell them what was expected of them?

There are some churches that are all about grace and a lot of schenanagans go on there. The christians there are often very imature. There are also a lot of churches that are all about the law. These people are often very obediant but not very plesant (though some are). Churches that concentate on the law in an unbalanced way don't do much to teach people how to deal with sin, they are too busy telling you that you are sinning. I have been to both kinds of churches. What one needs is a church that teaches both law and grace and how these things work together towards christian maturity.

[Cassidy]

Cavell thank you for clarifying things. One of the problems with this thread and most of the threads is that things are not clearly defined. More needs to be done to accurately define the law in order to debate it's importance but at least we have a start. In the context of what Cavells quoted preachers are talking about, "the law" refers to a standard of behaviors (what is wrong and what is right).

Cassidy, Jesus lived this standard. We need standards so that we know what we must live up to. Only a perfect sinless person can live up to these standards we need grace so that we can work out our problems with God. This is not a magical thing. Dealing with sin is work, it is difficult to do as we all know.

Christ has dealt with the sin. If we continue to 'deal with sin' then we are trying to do Christ's work and his death is of no effect. You either believe in Christ's finished work on the cross and where grace abounds or you don't! No it's not a magical - it's a miracle thing! A spiritual thing!

Take for example standardized testing in the schools. A standard is set, and this standard is based on what one needs to know in order to function in society (for example certain reading proficiency levels and math ability) Without this standard how would anyone know how they measure up? How could we chart progress? How would we know where we stand in relation to what we need to know in order to function well in society? We need standards and in Christianity those standards are the law.

The standards are in Christ. The laws are for the lawless.

The law shows us our sin. If there was no law how would we know that we were sinning? How could the Holy Spirit convict us? As parents we tell our children what is expected of them. We have standards and rules. How would they behave if we had no rules and did not tell them what was expected of them?

The law is fullfilled...all rules have been obeyed! Through Christ I to obey and I too fullfill the law. Faith!

There are some churches that are all about grace and a lot of schenanagans go on there. The christians there are often very imature. There are also a lot of churches that are all about the law. These people are often very obediant but not very plesant (though some are). Churches that concentate on the law in an unbalanced way don't do much to teach people how to deal with sin, they are too busy telling you that you are sinning. I have been to both kinds of churches. What one needs is a church that teaches both law and grace and how these things work together towards christian maturity.

I don't care about different organisations. I only care about one church and that is Christ's church where he is the cornerstone and foundation on whom I base my whole walk. This way I cannot go wrong.

If I follow the law I will continue to sin (like paul) and I would mess it up and my works would be dead filthy works that God's not interested in. Galatians were doing this and were bickering amongst themselves - they were called 'foolish'!!! That's why Jesus came to fullfill the law so that I can now have total faith in Him...and as long as I look to him then I can be assured of my salvation because it's him doing the saving and not me. I'm not foolish!!!

[Mrs Butterworth]

Jesus paid for our sins on the cross. Yet until we die we will have to deal with our bad behavior (sin) and work towards character reformation (maturity).The law shows us right from wrong, it shows us how immature we are. When this is revealed to us then with Gods wisdom guidance and help we can learn how to stop doing bad behaviors and grow up (mature).

[Cassidy]

Jesus paid for our sins on the cross. Yet until we die we will have to deal with our bad behavior (sin) and work towards character reformation (maturity).The law shows us right from wrong, it shows us how immature we are. When this is revealed to us then with Gods wisdom guidance and help we can learn how to stop doing bad behaviors and grow up (mature).


Romans 8


1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

[Mrs Butterworth]

The law does not make us righteous it merely shows us right from wrong. I am not implying that it ever made us righteous. Through our relationship with Christ we can learn from him and grow and mature. This relationship is possible through salvation.

Now with that being said I don't understand why you are having difficulty with this concept. Sometimes it seems as if we are both saying somewhat the same things just using different definitions, sometimes this does not seem to be the case . Its like seeing different sides of a multifaceted object. Same object different points of view. It helps when communicating to try to clearly define the concepts you are talking about then everyone will be on the same page. With clear definitions it is easier to see if you are looking at the same object or at different objects. Lets try in future communication to clearly define what we mean and get to the point that we are trying to make so that we can better pin point where the problems are.

I do not want our discussion to become an argument of pride where instead of trying to understand the scripture better and hopefully understand each other better it becomes a meaningless argument over who can win. Lets strive together toward the goal of understanding scripture better and if that doesn't pan out at least we might accomplish some secondary goals which could be to learn to communicate better and to understand each other better. Please don't think that I am implying that you are trying to to make this an argument of pride I just want to stop a possible pride situation (on both our parts) before it gets out of control. Please forgive my boldness in saying this. Now at this point I would like to put one of those nice little smiling faces here, but I don't know how to do that so just try to imagine one.

[Cassidy]

When you quote from the previous poster you will have a screen where there are a few of those emoticons that you can simply click on to place them into your post. Other than that, for a smiley face, you can type this : then this ) but together and it will be automatic. The same is if you were to want a sad face you'd go : then ( or a wink ; then ) Hope that helps :)

Anyway back to the subject at hand. I don't by any means believe that you or I would be prideful. I live to set people free from bondage. I hate seeing people continually work for salvation (I call it salvation even though you've clearly said that it's not salvation).

It saddens me to see this time and again...the condemnation and the guilt that comes with it. I was brought up on these principles and they only serve to stunt my walk because I underestimated Christ and what he's done. I will always bring it back to Christ. Everything I post on here will always have a Christ base! Because it's all about him! He is my rock, He is the one I rest on. I can't rely on myself or my own abilities to follow laws and standards - I've tried that and still failed. Rules are for the unruly. I'm not unruly - I'm in Christ.

The rules and regulations that some churches have, can be based on scripture but they can also be manipulated and used against the Christian. And this is detrimental, ESPECIALLY for a young Christian because they soak in everything that, the powers that be, say. It's a horrible feeling and one I would not wish on any Christian.

Once I got rid of the rules and the laws and actually saw what the bible said about them being written on my heart etc. I asked myself one question..."What would happen to these churches if suddenly there was no bible...and no law to base their rules on?" What then? They would have to actually rely on the Holy Spirit of Christ. So then I asked myself "Why not just rely on the Holy Spirit of Christ to begin with?" You can't go wrong that way!! Not ever! When you stuff up it will be the Holy Spirit that will pull you up and put you on the right path again....you don't need to follow the law for this to happen. It will just happen because you are a child of the most high God and your father chastises His children. I have complete faith in His ability to keep me, he is the perfect parent after all ;)

[rob64]

Paraphrased by rob64;
"...There will come a day when I will write my comandments IN THEIR HEARTS..." - God
In the age of grace in which we live, it's no more about the letter of the law. It's about the "Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" which has set us free from the law of sin and death.
Knowing right from wrong is something God has put in our hearts. He is interested in our heart condition.
If people want to cling to a small part of the law, then why dont they offer sacrifices?

AGAIN- The law was given to the JEWS. NOT US. We were grafted into grace. If people would humble theirselves, and admit that we were never under the law in the first place, there would be some revelation on this forum.
God resists the proud, but GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE.

[Isaksson]

If you believe in jesus christ, his death and ressurection. If you believe that God forgivess anything, then being bound to the law is no problem - Jesus will lead you to the new covenant.

"For in my inner man i delight in the law of God" - Paul

And for more concening that read Psalm 119. the law gives wisdom and understanding.

The law was indeed given to the Jews as the second known law on the earth. Pharao held another law, but that was an unrighteous law which involved alot of spooky stuff. such as cutting in corpes and treat illness and give miraclecures with worms from carcassess and corpeses.

I believe moses defeted and exalted himself above pharaos law, and was given a new one - The law of God.

Somehow it seems to me like many of my fellow brothers believe that the law is not from God and it is a wicked thing to do to follow it. it cannot save us that is for sure.

The law of God tells us what we "...shall not do". When reading it and live according to it still in faith of the mercy that came with Christ we will be sharped and gain wisedom by it, and eventutally he will lead us into his forgivness and mercy.

So what can we do? what are we allowed to do as a part of the body of christ? that is something that the law does not cover - but it is incomplete without the New Covenant.

The law is from God and through the wide spread of christianity it is applyable even in countries where there are no jews.

Chrisianians spread the word of God to the ends of the earth - including the law of God. So in modern days i believe that it is a universial law.

"Your laws endure to this day,
for all things serve you." (-Psalm 119)

It is a good thing to know what God doesn't want us to do. It is even better to know what God wants us to Do, so that we can serve the Lord with all our hearts.

[rob64]

It's also a fact that faith entered the picture before the law was given!

[Wade Smith]

Some of you people claim to be under "grace' but are under "license".

You "sin that grace may abound" which Paul clearly rebukes in Romans 6.

15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Without the Law, what is sin?

Paul NEVER disregarded the "moral" aspects of the Law. Not even one time.

If you say, "The law is for Jews only." Well, that is a might strange thing, since Paul is writing to ROMANS.

Additionally, the law itself denies the claim that it is for "Jews only".

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

This is actually repeated in Leviticus and Numbers.

Also, in the New Testament Peter says, "I perceive that God is no respector of persons." The same law for the Jews was the same law for the gentiles. The same gifts of the Spirit for the Jews were the same for the Gentiles. It has always been that way and always will be.

Romans 7:7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.


You see, you and I are not Justified by the law. However, you BETTER obey the law, else you are just deceiving yourself.

"Faith without works is dead."

Romans 8:15 is talking about being bound to sin. Not being "bound to the law".

The Law was never the problem. Sin was the problem.

The Law in and of itself offered no solution to the problem, but that was and is no excuse to do away with it.

When we look at verse 4 and 5 of romans 8:

4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Notice something, the scripture says that if you are "walking after the Spirit" then the righteousness of the Law is fulfilled in you. See below.

Now also notice this from John.

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Jesus never did away with the Ten Commandments, nor any of the other moral commandments of the Law. Watch this, which I already showed in another thread.

Luke 18:20
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

You say, "We aren't under the law. Follow Jesus' commandments."

Yet Jesus quoted the Old Testament commandments, and much of his teaching was either quoted or paraphrased from the Old Testament, as was the case for much of hte writings by all the other New Testament teachers.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Romans 6:1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

So you see, the New Covenant standard of righteousness is actually stricter than the Old Covenant. It does not discard anything at all really.


IN this manner we see that if a person does not keep the commandments, not just the ten commandments, but ALL of the "thou shalts and shalt nots" in the Bible, then we know that they are not "walking after the Spirit". If they had been, they would not have sinned.

Grace never "abolished" the law. In fact, without the law, the word "sin" would be un-defined, which is what Paul was getting at in Romans 7.


Therefore, knowing that the Bible says not to be a homosexual, and not to drink alcohol, and all these other things, then when we see someone choosing to do these things, and moreover choosing a lifestyle of continuing to do them, we know that they are not walking after the Spirit.
===


What Paul was rebuking among the galatians was not "moral laws", but idiotic ceremonial laws, many of which had no basis in the Bible in either Old or New Testament; such as the belief that sabbath keeping, circumcisions and holy days could somehow save or sanctify a person.

Paul never gave anyone an excuse to choose for themselves what "Good" and "Evil" are.

What is wrong for me is wrong for you, and vice versa.

"God is no respector of persons."

[Mrs Butterworth]

Ahhh. real definitions and personal stories that explain where you are coming from. Now I have some insight into your perspective and perhaps some insight into how you came to think that way. Now I am beginning to understand The points at which we see things differently. This helps.

Last night I thought about how I could explain how the law and grace work together. I have a story that might help explain but I have a bad headache and have to go to bed. I am just writing this to let you know that I have not abandoned this conversation and to thank you for explaining things a bit better.

Cassidy thanks for your help on the smily face things. I plan to try it on my next post.

[Cassidy]

Ahhh. real definitions and personal stories that explain where you are coming from. Now I have some insight into your perspective and perhaps some insight into how you came to think that way. Now I am beginning to understand The points at which we see things differently. This helps.

Last night I thought about how I could explain how the law and grace work together. I have a story that might help explain but I have a bad headache and have to go to bed. I am just writing this to let you know that I have not abandoned this conversation and to thank you for explaining things a bit better.

Cassidy thanks for your help on the smily face things. I plan to try it on my next post.

I'm sorry you're not well - I hope you get better soon!

[rob64]

Some of you people claim to be under "grace' but are under "license".

You "sin that grace may abound" which Paul clearly rebukes in Romans 6.


My friend, how would you know such a thing? This is a pretty bold statement isn't it?

It clearly shows how dillusional you really are if you have such an assumption. !

So far I haven't made a single statement that indicates my belief that I can use grace to continue in sin.

But since you brought it up, here's what I know;

Because of grace, I am dead to sin. My old man was nailed to the cross. The wages of sin is death. That law doesn't apply to me any more because of grace. Now, the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. The law is still there, it just doesn't apply to me, because of grace. The law is for the lawless.

And it doesn't matter how you try to refute it, WE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW....Bible

[Wade Smith]

My friend, how would you know such a thing? This is a pretty bold statement isn't it?

It clearly shows how dillusional you really are if you have such an assumption. !

So far I haven't made a single statement that indicates my belief that I can use grace to continue in sin.

But since you brought it up, here's what I know;

Because of grace, I am dead to sin. My old man was nailed to the cross. The wages of sin is death. That law doesn't apply to me any more because of grace. Now, the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. The law is still there, it just doesn't apply to me, because of grace. The law is for the lawless.

And it doesn't matter how you try to refute it, WE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW....Bible

So you are saying its ok to kill, steal, rape, etc?


You will say, "obviously not".

I say, "without the law, how do you know?"


You say the law doesn't apply to you.

Then you paradoxically say that the law is for the lawless.

That is not Biblical for you to simply quote that one phrase from the scripture and ignore the entire context.

8But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;


Have you ever told a lie?

If the answer is "yes", then the law applies to you.

In fact, the Law applies to everyone, because the Bible tells us that there are no righteous people. Only Jesus is righteous.

The law isn't made for a righteous man, but the scriptures tell us that none of us are righteous, therefore the law is for all of us.(Rom. 3:10).


Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


Romans 3:31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid:

Proves that the moral law is the same as it always has been.


"...yea, we establish the law."

Proves that a Christian BETTER live according to the standards in the law.


The law cannot save anyone, it never could. But as James said, "Faith without works is dead."

John said that if you continue in sin the love of God is not in you. and "sin" is defined by all those "thou shalts and shalt nots" found in the Bible.


You BETTER obey the Law, however, obeying the law cannot save you.

We aren't under the law? Funny, John didn't get the memo...


1 JOhn 3:4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not*: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin*, because he is born of God.

* I put an asterix because the verb conjugation and/or context means "to continue in sin". It doesn't mean that if someone slips up one time they are lost.

In reality, because of the second half of verse 4, you can actually replace all following occurences of the word "sin" or its conjugations with the phrase, "Transgresses the Law", and the passage maintains its meaning exactly.

All of that being said, John clearly taught that we are to obey the law. This letter was written after Paul's death.


Therefore, when we look around and see "christians" who have no desire to live by moral commandments written in the Bible, we know that at best they are backslidden, and at worst they are not true christians to begin with.

Every tree is known by its fruit, and the Word of God is the standard by which fruit is judged. If a person finds nothing wrong with breaking Biblical commandments, then they are either backslidden or were never saved to begin with.

A good tree doesn't bring forth corrupt fruit.

Once again, keeping the law cannot save or justify anyone. But if you do not keep the law, "faith without works is dead."

[Wade Smith]

1 JOhn 3:4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins(transgressions of the law); and in him is no sin(transgression of the law).
6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not*(Does not transgress the law): whosoever sinneth(transgresses the law) hath not seen him, neither known him.
7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8He that committeth sin(transgresses the law) is of the devil; for the devil sinneth(transgresses the law) from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin(does not transgress the law); for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin*(transgress the law), because he is born of God.

[Bryan Cotton]

You see, you and I are not Justified by the law. However, you BETTER obey the law, else you are just deceiving yourself.


I beleive that grace fullfill, or completed, the law. Jesus and Paul pretty much covers most of if not all of the aspects of law under grace. So it's not like it got replace, it was made complete.

If we are still under the law that was in place before grace, then should our baby boys still be circumcised on the 8th day in accordance to the law for her that hath born a male or a female as stated in Leviticus 12:7. Circumcision is address under grace.

I could go all through Leviticus and Numbers and Deuteronomy and touch all them laws and how we WOULD have to be or act in accordance to this or that. I mean, we'd all be unclean from sitting or touching places of a woman who is having a discharge. Leviticus 15:19-20

Yo, when I was reading the laws, I was in awe. I think that's when I went to the new testiment and eventually came across Paul addressing grace and Law.


So you see, the New Covenant standard of righteousness is actually stricter than the Old Covenant. It does not discard anything at all really.


To me the new covenant is harder (or stricter) then the old covenant. Here is on example. Matthew 5:26-27

26 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

27 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

[Cassidy]

We all sin and fall short of the Glory of God - law or no law! Obviously law does nothing to keep us from sin...since we all still sin. The law is weak! We MUST have faith in the strong - Christ! Only then do we have any hope to be freed from sin.

[tanzel]

If there is no law there is no sin. Sin is not imputed or no blame can be accredited to any person when there is no law. But, in I John 3:4 it states, "whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." So if the law was nailed to the cross that would mean its okay to use the Lords name in vain, put other gods before HIM, make graven images and bow before them, pollute the Sabbath day, steal, commit murder, commit adultery and bear false witness. If all these things are okay to commit, then we might as well throw the Bible out the back door and do what ever feels good to us.

" When Jesus died on the cross he caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease. This signified the end of the law of animal sacrifice, not Gods Royal law. Paul explained this in; (Heb.10:1, 9-10,18,26-27) (v.1) For the law (what law, the law of animal sacrifice?) having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (v.9) Then said he, (Jesus) Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first that he may establish the second. (v.10) By which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

When Jesus died on the cross that was the end of the first covenant, which consisted of the blood of animals and the keeping of God’s commandments. And his death also brought in the second covenant, which consist of the blood of Jesus and the keeping of God’s commandments. (v.18) Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. In other words, no more animals are going to die for your sins. (v.26) For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. Now do we understand what’s being said here? If you sin willfully after you have knowledge of what the truth is, no more animals are going to die for you. (v.27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Now if you are being deceived into believing that once you are under God’s grace you no longer have to keep his commandments, all you have to look forward to is the day of judgement and the lake of fire (fiery indignation).

"And hereby we do know that we know Him, IF we keep His commandments. He that saith, I KNOW HIM and keepeth not His commandments is a LIAR and the Truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth His Word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby we do know that we are in Him." 1 John 2:3-5.

"Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have RIGHT to the tree of life, AND MAY ENTER IN through the gates into the city." Rev 22:14.

"For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are sons of God." Rom 8.

Now pay attention, the law that is being spoken of here came four hundred and thirty years after this covenant. But God’s holy commandments have been around forever even before man was created. Remember that Satan was kicked out of heaven because iniquity (sin) was found in him. And what is sin? The transgression of the law (commandments). (v.19) Wherefore then serveth the law? A question is being asked here. Then why should we serve this law? It was added because of transgression, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; the law that we are talking about here was added because of sin.

But we now know that sin is the transgression of the law. How do you add a law if sin is the transgression of the law? Because there are two sets of laws, you have God’s holy commandments which abided forever, and you had the animal sacrificial law which was added because of sin, but it was only good until the seed should come to whom the promise was made, and that seed was Jesus. (v.24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. This animal sacrificial law was only a schoolmaster. And this schoolmaster taught you that when you sinned in ignorance blood had to be shed (an animal sacrificed). But Christ being the ultimate sacrifice shed his precious blood once and for all, and by doing this putting an end to the animal sacrificial law.

(Rom. 7:7,12) (v.7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET. Paul asked a question, is the law sin? He said God forbid, he said the only way that he knew what sin was, was by the law. (v.12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Why in the world would a Christian want to do away with something that God said is holy. (Rom. 4:15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. If there is no law there is no sin. Which mean we can do as we please when we please!

1John 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.(Ecclesiates 12:13,14)

peace in jesus name

[rob64]

The Old Covenant 'law' was in the plural form. It had many precepts and jots and tittles. It was an outside law (written on tablets of stone). It was the "letter of the law". It's the type of law that one obeys, it requires action.

The New Covenant 'law' is the singular form. It only means one thing. It is not the letter of the law, neither is it the same kind of law. It is a law of nature. It's an inner law (written in our hearts). It's the same kind of law that causes the sun to come up every morning. It is a law that God has set in motion.

Do you see the contrast?

In the New Covenant, there are two 'laws' at work. (Both in the singular) That

There is the "law of sin and death", which was initiated when Adam disobeyed God. "If you eat...you will surely die". That's how we got our sin nature. "The wages of sin is death". It's the law of sin and death. From birth we fall under this law of sin and death.
God said in the OT that, "Soon will come a day when....and He will write His commandments in our hearts..." In the form of a conscience. We dont need the letter of the law because He put in us a conscience. It's the "knowledge of good and evil" (Interestingly, the tree Adam ate from)

But there is also another law that God has initiated.

It's the "LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS". When we humble ourselves, and admit that we are sinners, and repent and receive Christ as our savior. (apply His blood) We become partakers of this 'law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus'.
God comes in our life. Jesus puts His Spirit in us, and we have newness of life. "FOR [THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS] HAS MADE ME FREE FROM THE [LAW OF SIN AND DEATH] ".

Now we are, "THE RIGHEOUSNESS OF GOD IN CHRIST". We are not considered "lawless" anymore. The law of sin and death doesn't apply to us anymore. Neither does the 'letter of the law'

The law is there to show us that we are corrupt/wicked/disobedient/sinners..... So, if we are no longer lawless, we no longer need the law. It has fulfilled it's purpose.

Of course the law will always be there, because there will always be sinners. But if you are truely born again, the law no longer applies to you.

We now have LIFE! Now, obedience comes automaticly.
In our natural life, we dont need anyone to tell us how to be a human. We just are a human, and act accordingly.
It's the same in our new life! Our obedience to God is a spontaneous thing. It happens automaticly. Does a squirrel try to be a squirrel? Of course not.

[Steve Petersen]

The entire concept of a New Covenant is first mentioned in Jeremiah 31:


31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2031&version=31#fen-NIV-19724d)] them, [e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2031&version=31#fen-NIV-19724e)] "
declares the LORD.
33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

Note that this new covenant is not made with Gentiles, but with Israel and Judah. The fact this refers to actual descendants of Israel and Judah is made explicit in verse 32. God says it will not be like the covenant that He made with THEIR FATHERS WHEN HE BROUGHT THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT.

There is no way you can spiritualize this to make Christians the 'New Israel.' God is speaking to actual descendants of Israel and Judah.

How then does a Gentile participate in the New Covenant which Jesus initiated?

It is also apparent that this new covenant is not here completely, as evidenced by verse 34.

[Mrs Butterworth]

In this discussion it sounds like there is a difference in how we define "the law". Are we talking about the old testament law where people atoned for their sins through religious practices involving sacrifice? or we talking about a clear standard of what is right and wrong in behavior and attitudes as it is written in the word of God (by the way I wish I had a shorter and better way to define this but I still hope you understand my definition)? I have made the mistake of not defining this, and I think I have contributed in the confusion. I apologize.

Though we don't have to kill animals anymore to atone for sin and many of those religious practices like circumcision are no longer necessary because Jesus atoned for our sin on the cross, we are still under obligation to live a moral life. We have a conscience that tells us right from wrong, but as humans we are really good at not listening to our conscience. We can become so good at shutting off our conscience that we wouldn't know how to listen to it if we tried.

This is were the law (biblical standard of behaviors and attitudes) comes into play. First it works with our conscience to convict us of our sin. The law tells us we have sinned and our conscience nags us until we do something about it.

Second the law, as I have stated it, works to stop a very old and successful ploy of the Devil which is to get people so far off track that they can't see the connection between their sin and it's natural consequence. Sin has natural consequences. For example if we mess up our finances we have financial difficulty. Yet there are people out there who can't make the connection between their sinful behavior (being a bad steward of money and the materialistic attitude that often motivates this behavior) and the financial difficulty they are in. They don't read their bible and they go to these churches who sympathize with their current situation yet never tell them how to get out of it, and to stop their situation from happening again! Some churches go so far as to tell people that all they have to do is give the church money and all their financial problems will go away. Though tithing is important, and there are promises involved with this, if one is still sinning with irresponsibility and a materialistic attitude, the consequences of those sins will still happen. This is where the law comes into play. It tells people what they did wrong, and what is the correct attitude to have. Then with this knowledge people can go to a financial adviser and ask that person how to live with a budget while at the same time work with God on changing their materialistic beliefs.

How many married people do you know are sinning and can't figure out why their spouse hates them? If they read their bible they would be able to see their sin (because the law would tell them what they are doing wrong) and from this they would be able to figure out why their spouse is angry and they would work to change their behavior.

Now the reason why I am so adamant about the law is I have been to churches that didn't teach the law (as I have defined it) and so many of the people there were miserable and hurting because they were experiencing the consequences of their own sin and did not know a way out. They did not know that they, through repentant behavior and attitude change, could get themselves out of a situation they felt trapped in.

On another note, Cassidy, thank you for your concern, I am feeling better

[Steve Petersen]

In this discussion it sounds like there is a difference in how we define "the law". Are we talking about the old testament law where people atoned for their sins through religious practices involving sacrifice?

I would have to disagree with the premise. If animal sacrifice atoned for sin, Jesus didn't have to die. Many are the places in the OT where the prophet rages against 'useless sacrifies' i.e., sacrifices without repentance. Rabbinic literature also decries this type of activity.

As regards the role of the Law, I would add that it is not SOLEY to convict people of sin.

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

[rob64]

The entire concept of a New Covenant is first mentioned in Jeremiah 31:


31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2031&version=31#fen-NIV-19724d)] them, [e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2031&version=31#fen-NIV-19724e)] "
declares the LORD.
33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

Note that this new covenant is not made with Gentiles, but with Israel and Judah. The fact this refers to actual descendants of Israel and Judah is made explicit in verse 32. God says it will not be like the covenant that He made with THEIR FATHERS WHEN HE BROUGHT THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT.

There is no way you can spiritualize this to make Christians the 'New Israel.' God is speaking to actual descendants of Israel and Judah.

How then does a Gentile participate in the New Covenant which Jesus initiated?

It is also apparent that this new covenant is not here completely, as evidenced by verse 34.

Yes, the Jews were the first to be offered this plan of salvation. There is at least one verse that tipifies this; "...to the Jew first, and also to the greek..."
But when the Jews rejected the Savior, God opened it up to all mankind.
"For God so loved the WORLD that He..." not, For God so loved the Jews"
"We were 'grafted in' " - Bible.

I do not support the substitution idea.

We are now living in the time God spoke of in the OT

[Cassidy]

Now the reason why I am so adamant about the law is I have been to churches that didn't teach the law (as I have defined it) and so many of the people there were miserable and hurting because they were experiencing the consequences of their own sin and did not know a way out. They did not know that they, through repentant behavior and attitude change, could get themselves out of a situation they felt trapped in.


Actually I would say that they have not yet come to the realisation of who they are in Christ rather than not knowing the law. I find the same types of people in 'legalistic' churches also. I've also seen a lot of sin there that were behind the scenes, they are more sly about it than those who come from 'grace' based churches.

I notice this with my own children....when I'm hard on them they don't stop doing the wrong thing...they are just more sneaky about it. But if I discipline them with a more 'grace' like way rather than a 'lawful' way, I notice they are more open with their discretions and I am able to correct them better.

Also the 'law' that paul speaks about is the 'law'...he doesn't differentiate between sacrificial laws and non-sacrificial laws. So to argue that one has got to physically keep the commandments is like saying that Christ's death and resurrection is of no effect.

Does this give us licence to sin? No! Rather it gives us licence to NOT SIN because we are no in Christ. When one walks in the spirit then they are no longer in the fleshe...it is God that guilds and disciplines from inside out rather from outside in, as it was under the old covenant.

Mrs Butterworth - glad you're feeling better now.