The eating of meat?

[Orthodox Andrew]

From what I understand, there's a Christian theory that man nor animals ate any meat until after the fall. However, God allowed man to eat meat after the flood. Now does the Orthodox Church teach that man didn't eat meat before the flood? And does Orthodoxy teach that animals did not eat meat before the fall of man?


Thanks.

[Nickolai]

From what I understand, there's a Christian theory that man nor animals ate any meat until after the fall. However, God allowed man to eat meat after the flood. Now does the Orthodox Church teach that man didn't eat meat before the flood? And does Orthodoxy teach that animals did not eat meat before the fall of man?


Thanks.

Well the flood was post-fall, so I'm kinda confused as to why you are including the flood in this.

and From what I hear no animal was killed before the fall. There was no death in the world. remember?

[The Prokeimenon!]

Man ate meat before the flood, but never on Wednesday or Friday ;)

I've always thought that man did eat meat in the time betweem the fall and the flood, but I don't know for sure. I do know that God made Adam & Eve leather clothes to wear right after the fall, so I guess there would have been some meat left over from whatever was killed. Great question! Hope somebody can give us a good answer.

Moses

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

It's my understanding (which may or may not be correct;) ) that the Church fathers did not believe meat was eaten until sometime after the fall. I *think* this is one of the reasons that monks in monasteries do not eat meat; they relate it to man's fallen state. Meat is also said to inflame the passions. Someone tried to explain this to me once but a lot of it went over my head. It's something to do with the blood of animals.:scratch:

[MariaRegina]

It's my understanding (which may or may not be correct;) ) that the Church fathers did not believe meat was eaten until sometime after the fall. I *think* this is one of the reasons that monks in monasteries do not eat meat; they relate it to man's fallen state. Meat is also said to inflame the passions. Someone tried to explain this to me once but a lot of it went over my head. It's something to do with the blood of animals.:scratch:

Meat contains l-carnitine which is known as a stimulant (of sexual appetite), so even non-monastics who are struggling with lustful thoughts are encouraged to eat less meat or abstain from it for a certain amount of time.

Also, eating meat after 3 PM is usually not recommended for those struggling as it prevents a restful night (can cause gas to form).

[Edit: I'm allergic to meat and I was having hives from eating curry - then I found out that the main ingredient in curry is chicken. :doh: ]

[Orthodox Andrew]

Thanks to all of you.:)

But we don't have to believe nobody ate meat before the fall, right?

[Oblio]

I *think* this is one of the reasons that monks in monasteries do not eat meat; they relate it to man's fallen state.


ISTM that I heard this in a sermon prior to a fast. We are reminded of our prefallen state, hence our fallen state by a return to a vegan diet for a period.

[MariaRegina]

So, therefore, if man ate a vegetarian diet before the fall, we should not be saddened to partake of this pre-fall diet during our lenten seasons!

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

So, therefore, if man ate a vegetarian diet before the fall, we should not be saddened to partake of this pre-fall diet during our lenten seasons!
Yeah, but Adam and Eve didn't have to deal with food advertisements, fast food restaurants on every corner, and family who has to have meat at every meal.;)

[Oblio]

As long as we can have wine to make my face shine and wine to gladden my heart ... IOW feast days, I'm cool with it. Oh, and feta cheese too, and caviar, and ...

[Orthodox Andrew]

Well the flood was post-fall, so I'm kinda confused as to why you are including the flood in this.

and From what I hear no animal was killed before the fall. There was no death in the world. remember?
But does that mean no bodily death? I was told by Orthdox Christians that it was more of a spirtual death.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

But does that mean no bodily death? I was told by Orthdox Christians that it was more of a spirtual death.
It's my understanding (and I'm pretty sure it's Orthodox) that ANY death, both physical and spiritual, is a consequence of the fall. Prior to this, there would've been no death. Now, I'm not too sure if this applies to the animal kingdom as well as for humans. It would make sense if it did though. Sin affects the animal kingdom too.

[Orthodox Andrew]

It's my understanding (and I'm pretty sure it's Orthodox) that ANY death, both physical and spiritual, is a consequence of the fall. Prior to this, there would've been no death. Now, I'm not too sure if this applies to the animal kingdom as well as for humans. It would make sense if it did though. Sin affects the animal kingdom too.
I'm just trying to find out if that is the case.:scratch: I just find that idea very hard to believe.

[The Prokeimenon!]

Yeah, but Adam and Eve didn't have to deal with food advertisements, fast food restaurants on every corner, and family who has to have meat at every meal

True, but they did have that one tree that looked sooooooo yummy. And that serpent was a walking advertisement for that tree :)

BTW, I think Steve (GDE, you know which Steve I'm referring to) said once that when he was into transendental meditation and Buddhism and the like, that they were encouraged not to eat certain foods because their monks had noticed that certain foods stirred up certain unhealthy desires or reactions. It seems that the whole abstaining from meat thing is not just a spiritual exercise, but it's a very practical, universally recognized excercise that has real, proven, positive effects. Of course, we Americans are much too smart to believe what a few thousand years of practice has come to prove- we need pills ;).

Moses

[Akathist]

I wonder if the same chemicals are found in dairy products. It would seem that whatever is in a chicken would be in an egg... but is the same thing true for milk products?

(And I don't know about Orthodox teaching in this matter. But I was looking at the icon of the cruicifiction and another of the ... can't think of the name.. the one where Jesus is picking Adam up by the wrist on Holy Saturday. Anyway, the symbols of this would indicate that the crucifiction concurred death. The question is, did it concor only human death?)

Related question: why did Jesus (and also Paul) state that all food is good to eat if the eating of meat is so bad?

[Orthodox Andrew]

(And I don't know about Orthodox teaching in this matter. But I was looking at the icon of the cruicifiction and another of the ... can't think of the name.. the one where Jesus is picking Adam up by the wrist on Holy Saturday. Anyway, the symbols of this would indicate that the crucifiction concurred death. The question is, did it concor only human death?)

I love your point!

Could it be that the death that came from sin, was the spiritual death? That is why we say Christ conquered death? All because of Christ's sacrifice we can now go to Heaven. So death doesn't really exist for those who make it there?

[Orthodox Andrew]

http://www.iconsexplained.com/iec/resurrection/046_resurrection.jpg

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

I wonder if the same chemicals are found in dairy products. It would seem that whatever is in a chicken would be in an egg... but is the same thing true for milk products?

(And I don't know about Orthodox teaching in this matter. But I was looking at the icon of the cruicifiction and another of the ... can't think of the name.. the one where Jesus is picking Adam up by the wrist on Holy Saturday. Anyway, the symbols of this would indicate that the crucifiction concurred death. The question is, did it concor only human death?)

Related question: why did Jesus (and also Paul) state that all food is good to eat if the eating of meat is so bad?
I don't believe that meat is bad. I heard Bishop Ware talk about this on a video. He disagrees with the idea that meat is always bad. Fasting is not something we need to do everyday. I think fasting periods are suppose to be like spiritual tune-ups. Your car doesn't need a tune-up everyday, but if you go too long without one.......the car doesn't run as well. Did that even make sense?:scratch: You can tell I'm getting tired.......

[Orthodox Andrew]

I don't believe that meat is bad. I heard Bishop Ware talk about this on a video. He disagrees with the idea that meat is always bad. Fasting is not something we need to do everyday. I think fasting periods are suppose to be like spiritual tune-ups. Your car doesn't need a tune-up everyday, but if you go too long without one.......the car doesn't run as well. Did that even make sense?:scratch: You can tell I'm getting tired.......

I love Bp. Kallistos. Which video was it? The one from www.goarch.org (http://www.goarch.org) or the one from www.orthodox.tv (http://www.orthodox.tv)?

[Oblio]

Anyway, the symbols of this would indicate that the crucifiction concurred death. The question is, did it concor only human death?)


This is the Mystery of our Salvation. Just as the eternal Divine Christ God was born of a Virgin as the God-man, His two natures existing in one person, so too did He die and descend as the God-man for His two natures cannot be separated. In this way, the Immortal dies and defeats death but Mystically so do we who are alive in Christ and are resurrected with Him to sit at the right hand of the Father.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

I love Bp. Kallistos. Which video was it? The one from www.goarch.org (http://www.goarch.org/) or the one from www.orthodox.tv? (http://www.orthodox.tv?)
Gosh, I'm not sure. It was from a series of videos done by Bp. Kallistos. The parish I was attending has inquirers watch them. I don't remember hearing what the title of the series was. Sorry! At one point he also talked about acts of natural ascetism versus un-natural ascetism. Interesting stuff!

[The Prokeimenon!]

I think fasting periods are suppose to be like spiritual tune-ups. Your car doesn't need a tune-up everyday, but if you go too long without one.......the car doesn't run as well. Did that even make sense? You can tell I'm getting tired.......


Actually, this is one of the best analogies I've heard! :clap:

Moses

[Orthodox Andrew]

Gosh, I'm not sure. It was from a series of videos done by Bp. Kallistos. The parish I was attending has inquirers watch them. I don't remember hearing what the title of the series was. Sorry! At one point he also talked about acts of natural ascetism versus un-natural ascetism. Interesting stuff!That's okay. I guess it must be these http://www.orthodox.tv/education.php


http://66.96.184.2/cgi-local/shop.pl/page=videos1.htm#10878

[Matthias]

Why says it is alright to eat meat today? Sometimes I ask myself how I can just eat one of God's creatures without a care in the world. Imagine the pain they are in when they are killed for my lazy guts.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

That's okay. I guess it must be these http://www.orthodox.tv/education.php


http://66.96.184.2/cgi-local/shop.pl/page=videos1.htm#10878
Yep, I'm pretty sure that's it. "The Human Person in Orthodox Spirituality."