Fruits Of Faith

[tanzel]

"FRUITS OF FAITH"

How will God judge the world? Who will end up in the lake of fire, and who will end up judging with God on his throne? Most Christians don’t know the answer to these questions. Let me ask you this, what if God commanded you to do something, would you do it? If God told you to obey him would you? God has asked this before, but in this world of "New Testament Christians", almost everyone is taught that we don’t have to obey the laws of God any more. Most ministers today teach that all you have to do (Rom.10: 9) is confess that Jesus came in the flesh and you shall be saved. They have mis taught you into believing that you need no works, that you need no fruits of faith. But if this is true, then the same question persists: how will God judge the world?

Have your minister convinced you that there are two Gods? One God is the father, the "mean killing machine" of the Old Testament, and the other is the "sweet loving" Jesus of the New Testament. What if the God of the old and New Testament were one and the same; what if he said, "Keep my Sabbaths", would you? What if he said, "Keep My Feasts" because the bible says that these are the Feasts of the Lord, and not the feasts of the Jews, would you? What if he said, "Keep my Commandments and my Judgments" would you keep them or would you allow some false prophet to convince you that they are no longer valid? What if he said, "I have an Everlasting Covenant and that I shed my blood for it," would you believe him? Can you be saved by faith only? Do works matter? In this text lesson we are by way of the bible, going to prove to you that if you have faith in God then you will bring forth fruits of that faith.

[tanzel]

From the Merriam Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary the definition of the word faith is; believe, trust. Now then how do you show the Lord that you believe in him? By your works, that’s how. Let’s go to the chapter in the bible that people call the faith chapter.

(Heb.11: 1-2, 7, 17, 24-26, 31, 35, 39-40) (v.1) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (v.2) For by it the elders obtained a good report. Now by the elder’s faith (belief) in God they obtained a good report. But how did theses elders show God that they had faith (belief) in him? Let’s take a look at some of them.

(v.7) By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness, which is by faith. How did Noah prove to God that he had faith in him? By his works! Noah moved with faith and fear and began preparing the ark.

(v.17) By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that received the promises offered up his only begotten son. Now here is the father of the faithful, and how did he show God the he had faith in him? By his works! The Lord God told Abraham to go and sacrifice his son, his only son. And Abraham’s faith was so strong that he was seconds’ way from killing his only son when the angel of the Lord stopped him, now that’s truly fruits of faith.

(v.24) By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter; (v.25) Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; (v.26) Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompense of the reward.

Moses knew who he was once he became of age unlike the movie would have you to believe. How did Moses show his faith? By his works! But through faith he chose to suffer affliction with the people of God rather than enjoy the pleasures of sin by continuing to allow himself to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter: esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt. You see Moses knew exactly whom he was dealing with, and it’s best that you learn that the God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament and his name is Jesus.

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By faith the harlot Ra’-hab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. The Harlot Ra’-hab showed her faith in God by her works! She hid the spies sent by Joshua, and the Lord blessed her and her family by saving them when he took down the city of Jericho.

(v.35) Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

How strong is your faith, will you endure affliction, torture, imprisonment, stoning, and even die for the word of God? These people showed their faith in God by their works, not accepting deliverance because they were looking for a better resurrection. What’s a better resurrection? The first resurrection is a better resurrection because if you are raised in the first resurrection you will not be judged; you will be doing the judging. But all of these people we just read about showed you fruits of faith they showed you works.

(v.39) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: They received a good report through faith. But how did they show their faith (belief) in God? By their works, and they all died with a good report having not received the promise.

(v.40) God having provided some better things for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Everybody that has a better resurrection coming will receive it at the same time. That’s why it says that they without us will not be made perfect. Who is perfect? God is perfect. God is recreating God. That’s another lesson for another time.

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(Matt. 7:21-23) (v.21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father, which is in heaven. You mean you must do more than call on the name of the Lord to enter into the kingdom of heaven? (Which will be set up on this earth)?

(v.22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? (v.23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Now this is not the harlot, the thief, or the murder, these are religious people; some had the power to cast out devils. And what did they put before the Lord? Their works! It’s obvious that their iniquity overrode their wonderful works. But they put their works on the table before the Lord, that’s what you are going to be judged by, your works!

It’s easy to say how much you love the Lord, and you may be able to deceive man, but God knows the mind. Many profess they know God, but in their works they deny him everyday. (Titus 1:16) They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him; being
abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Yea, you are talking about how you know God with your lips, but by your works you are doing something totally different. The Lord God commanded you to remember the Sabbath day (which is the seventh day of the week) to keep it holy and you deny him to his face by saying "I go to church on Sunday (the first day of the week) because Paul broke bread on Sunday", or because people think Jesus was in the grave from good friday to easter sunday
morning, 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (matthew 12:38-40)

[tanzel]

(Gal. 6:3-5, 7) (v.3) For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. (v.4) But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. The book says let every man prove his own work, and if your work is good then you will rejoice in it. (v.5) For every man shall bear his own burden.

That’s right; every man must bear his own burden. You mean you thought that all you had to do was confess the name of Jesus and that was it? Brothers and sisters you must work to get salvation. (v.7) Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. God is not to be played with. Whatsoever you plant, that’s what you are going to reap. Be it good works unto eternal life, or evil works unto eternal damnation. The choice is yours, and your works belong to you.

(Matt. 16:24-27) (v.24) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, if any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. That was the Lord’s burden, to die on the cross for the sins of man. Now as we read earlier every man must bear his own burden, and what is your burden?

(v.25) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. You must give up your life in this world; you must not get caught up in the cares of this world. You must bring forth-good fruits of faith by keeping God’s commandments, statues, and judgments.

(v.26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Some of the great patriarchs in (Heb.11) gave up a lot, some even their lives in exchange for their soul. You see they had great faith (belief) that their souls (bodies) would be raised at the first resurrection. And some of you won’t even give up some of the littlest things like, going to church on Sunday, the pagan holidays of Christmas and Easter, praying to the Virgin Mary, and I could go on and on. And most so-called Christians know these rituals have nothing to do with Jesus and the bible. But do they understand that they are offensive to God? Maybe it’s because you have more faith in man than God, maybe it’s because you fear how man is going to treat you, and you don’t fear God. But listen up;

(v.27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his holy angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Now these are the words of Jesus (the Son of man), you know the savior of the world. He said that when he comes he is going to judge every man according to his works. Who has deceived you into believing that all you need to do is have faith in the Lord and you will be saved?

to be continue....

[tanzel]

People we must realize, that it is the keeping of God’s holy laws that separates the righteous from the unrighteous.

(Titus: 3:8) This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

You must learn (by the word of God) what God expects of you and maintain his expectations to the end, if you expect to be saved.

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.(Matthew 24:13)

[tanzel]

(Matt. 5:16) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

You are supposed to glorify your Father in heaven, and let your light shine before men. And how do you do that? By having good works. Sometimes as a Christian you don’t have to say a word, people will see your works.

(Ezek. 33:30-32) Also, thou son of man, the children of thy people still are talking against thee by the walls and in the doors of the houses, and speak one to another, every one to his brother saying, Come, I pray you, and hear what is the word that cometh forth from the Lord. (v.31) And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness.

(v. 32) And, lo, thou art unto them as a very lovely song of one that hath a pleasant voice, and can play well on an instrument: for they hear thy words, but they do them not. Hopefully the time will come when people realize that you need more than lip service when it comes to serving the Lord. You must learn what thus saith the Lord, and do it!

[tanzel]

(Gal. 3:11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH. This didn’t start in the New Testament, Paul was only quoting scripture, and the just has always lived by their faith. (Hab. 2:4) Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. The just shall live by his belief (faith), and how do you show the Lord that you believe in him? By your obedience to his word. (1Tim. 6:17-19) (v.17) Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not high-minded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; (v.18) That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; (v.19) Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

Riches and gains that is the doctrine of today, they are preaching the gospel of prosperity and not the gospel of the coming of the kingdom of God. But the Lord said to charge them that are rich in this world that they be not high-minded, but that they should be rich in good works that they may lay hold on eternal life.

(James 2:14-18, 20-26) (v.14) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? (v.15) If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of a daily food, (v.16) And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

If someone came to you hungry and needed clothes and all you told them was peace be unto you, and God bless you, be ye warmed and filled. All you did was give lip service, no works, you didn’t help the problem.

(v.17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. The bible has been telling you all alone that you must have fruits to prove your faith. (v.18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. True faith goes hand in hand with good works. (v.20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Did you know that? Has anybody ever read this verse to you? How can you, after reading this verse ever say again that we need not work? You can have all the faith you want, but if you have no works to go along with that faith, that faith is in vain, that faith is dead.

(v.21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? We read where Abraham, the father of the faithful showed the Lord his faith by his works.

(v.22) Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? (v.23) And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND IT WAS IMPUTED UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS: and he was called the friend of God. (v.24) Ye see then how that by works a man is Justified, and not by faith only.

Do you see that also? Do you understand that you need works to go along with that faith; if you love and fear God then you should have no problem obeying his commandments.

(v.25) Likewise also was not Ra’-hab the harlot justified by works, when she received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? Ra’-hab showed her faith in God and her fear of God by doing good works. (v.26) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Take it or leave it, but this is the true uncut word of God. Just as the body is dead when you take away the spirit (breath) so faith is dead if you have no works.

peace in jesus name

[tanzel]

Sisters and brothers God gives us all these earthy examples regarding faith. You have so much faith in your job that you work seven, sometimes fourteen days, and why? Because you have faith (believe) that your employer is going to pay you according to your works. Some of us have so much faith in our employer that we take out thirty-year mortgages on homes, five- year car loans. When you go to apply for these loans and the loan officer asks you for proof of income and employment, you don’t say "man I don’t have a job, just have faith in me, I’ll pay you". The loan officer is going to run a credit report because he wants to see your past works and your history that’s how he judges if he can have enough faith in you to give you a loan. God works the same way, he is going to lay your works on the table on judgment day and judge you accordingly.

(2Tim. 4:1) I CHARGE thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom. And by what means will he use to judge you? You will be judged according to your works, pertaining to the commandments.

(John 17:3-4) (v.3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (v.4) I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. Yes Jesus did much work. He is the captain of our salvation and the captain is leading by his example, by his works.

(Phil. 2:12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Now if you need not work, then why is Paul telling you to "WORK" out your own salvation, and pay close attention because he also says with "fear and trembling".

(Matt. 19:16-17) (v.16) And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? That’s what we are all trying to obtain correct, eternal life? (v.17) And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

[Cassidy]

I believe I already obey all the laws of God through Christ! And it's through Christ that I will be saved not by my works...but through HIS works!

So it's not a question of whether we would keep the sabbath if asked...because, in my mind I already do keep the sabbath through Christ! He fulfilled the law.

[tanzel]

Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Will you deny the LORD for your mother or your father or any other family member? Will you turn away from His law for someone in your family? Look and see who the LORD considers family members.

Matthew 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. So I see, if you do the will of the Father in heaven you are a family member.

Proverbs 24:10 If thou faint in the day of adversity, thy strength is small. 11 If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain; 12 If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?

Look at verse 10, If thou faint in the day of adversity, thy strength is small. So when hard times come for the Word's sake, you brake, and don't lean on GOD you're weak. Look at 11, thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain; 12 If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works? Remember the LORD knows what's on your mind you can't hide anything from Him. He will give you exactly what you have coming.

Ezekiel 24:15 Also the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 16 Son of man, behold, I take away from thee the desire of thine eyes with a stroke: yet neither shalt thou mourn nor weep, neither shall thy tears run down. 17 Forbear to cry, make no mourning for the dead, bind the tire of thine head upon thee, and put on thy shoes upon thy feet, and cover not thy lips, and eat not the bread of men. 18 So I spake unto the people in the morning: and at even my wife died; and I did in the morning as I was commanded. 19 And the people said unto me, Wilt thou not tell us what these things are to us, that thou doest so? 20 Then I answered them, The word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 21 Speak unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will profane my sanctuary, the excellency of your strength, the desire of your eyes, and that which your soul pitieth; and your sons and your daughters whom ye have left shall fall by the sword.

You see how Ezekiel even after his wife died he continued to preach the Gospel. The people were confused, they knew his wife had died and he did not mourn for her. They wanted to know why? Look at verses 20and 21, 20 Then I answered them, The word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 21 Speak unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will profane my sanctuary, the excellency of your strength, the desire of your eyes, and that which your soul pitieth; and your sons and your daughters whom ye have left shall fall by the sword. He told them what will befall them. No matter what happens in your life and you are a true servant of the true and living GOD you must continue. Remember what the LORD said in Matthew.

Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Look what Abraham did here. Who does he love more Isaac or the LORD.

Genesis 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. 2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. 3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him. 9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. 10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. 11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Abraham had faith in GOD. Why? He did exactly what the LORD told him to do. The LORD told Abraham earlier that Isaac would carry his seed. Abraham new the LORD would not lie, he knew the LORD could raise his son from the dead if he had sacrificed him.

This act got Abraham into the kingdom. How do I know that, read the next set of verses in Hebrews and you will see. A few other brothers also in Hebrews 11 are waiting on the promise.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment. 24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

Just a little example of people having faith working to obtaining salvation, I haven't earn salvation, I'm still working

peace in jesus name

[toolite]

Without Faith it is impossible to please God! Without Faith how can the Holy Ghost show you anything or train you? You must trust in the Lord then he and only he can bring you out.

All The Glory Belongs To God!

[brinny]

"FRUITS OF FAITH"

How will God judge the world? Who will end up in the lake of fire, and who will end up judging with God on his throne? Most Christians don’t know the answer to these questions. Let me ask you this, what if God commanded you to do something, would you do it? If God told you to obey him would you? God has asked this before, but in this world of "New Testament Christians", almost everyone is taught that we don’t have to obey the laws of God any more. Most ministers today teach that all you have to do (Rom.10: 9) is confess that Jesus came in the flesh and you shall be saved. They have mis taught you into believing that you need no works, that you need no fruits of faith. But if this is true, then the same question persists: how will God judge the world?

Have your minister convinced you that there are two Gods? One God is the father, the "mean killing machine" of the Old Testament, and the other is the "sweet loving" Jesus of the New Testament. What if the God of the old and New Testament were one and the same; what if he said, "Keep my Sabbaths", would you? What if he said, "Keep My Feasts" because the bible says that these are the Feasts of the Lord, and not the feasts of the Jews, would you? What if he said, "Keep my Commandments and my Judgments" would you keep them or would you allow some false prophet to convince you that they are no longer valid? What if he said, "I have an Everlasting Covenant and that I shed my blood for it," would you believe him? Can you be saved by faith only? Do works matter? In this text lesson we are by way of the bible, going to prove to you that if you have faith in God then you will bring forth fruits of that faith.


hi tanzel.....just for clarification, could you tell me what the fruits of the spirit are?

[tanzel]

hi tanzel.....just for clarification, could you tell me what the fruits of the spirit are?

I sure can....

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (Galatians 5:22,23)

peace in jesus name

[brinny]

and yes, i agree. thank you for responding.....

and how does one obtain these things, these fruits of the spirit?

[tanzel]

and yes, i agree. thank you for responding.....

and how does one obtain these things, these fruits of the spirit?

One obtains these things by working in the law, keeping the law, keeping away from sinning.

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (James 1:13-15)

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (1John 3:4)

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(Revelation 22:14)

peace in jesus name

[Cassidy]

That's impossible to do without the Spirit of Christ doing it through you. Only through the Holy Spirit can you have the fruits of the spirit. It's got NOTHING to do with your own efforts in following commandments or whatever...it's Jesus' efforts of following the commandments is what we should draw on.

[tanzel]

That's impossible to do without the Spirit of Christ doing it through you. Only through the Holy Spirit can you have the fruits of the spirit. It's got NOTHING to do with your own efforts in following commandments or whatever...it's Jesus' efforts of following the commandments is what we should draw on.

Show me some scripture or some verse that make what I post impossible.

Now its true that people could have the fruits of the spirits and
still be a sinner, in this case it hard to tell who is who, except for
the person keeping the law.

3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. (Timothy 3:1-8)

11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.(2Corinthians 11:13,14)

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (James 1:13-15)

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (1John 3:4)

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(Revelation 22:14)

peace in jesus name

[Cassidy]

I would quote scripture, sir, but then I'd have to quote the whole bible! I would have to quote the old testament and all it's laws and rituals, and man's feeble attempts of keeping those laws. Then I'd have to quote the promises of freedom of the law. Then I'd have to quote Jesus' whole ministry and his death and resurrection. Then I'd have to quote all of Romans and Paul's anguish at keeping the law and the realisation that it's through Christ that the law is kept. Then I'd have to quote all of Galatians and how they were rebuked for their feeble attempts of following the law.

Need I go on?

So I ask you....isn't christ good enough?

[tanzel]

I would quote scripture, sir, but then I'd have to quote the whole bible! I would have to quote the old testament and all it's laws and rituals, and man's feeble attempts of keeping those laws. Then I'd have to quote the promises of freedom of the law. Then I'd have to quote Jesus' whole ministry and his death and resurrection. Then I'd have to quote all of Romans and Paul's anguish at keeping the law and the realisation that it's through Christ that the law is kept. Then I'd have to quote all of Galatians and how they were rebuked for their feeble attempts of following the law.

Need I go on?

So I ask you....isn't christ good enough?
Sorry, Cassidy, I like to work with verses and scriptures.

peace in jesus name

[Cassidy]

Obviously! But the problem with what you quote is that you're pulling bits and pieces of scripture out of context. What you need to do and see the bible as a whole and view it that way. I was like you once...I'd throw scripture for scripture. One person would quote a scripture and then I'd throw a scripture to contradict that scripture! But that's wrong! That's not the way to do it! That would mean that the bible contradict itself and we both know that that's incorrect!

As I said, I could quote scripture for you...but then I'd be quoting the whole bible so the best thing you can do...is start there, the WHOLE bible not just the scriptures that sit right with your doctrine.

But here's a good starting scripture for you...ROMANS!!! The whole book from start to finish, take into consideration who, what, when, how and why. Open your bible and read! Then come back and see me...Good luck!!!

[tanzel]

(Heb. 6:10-11) (v.10) For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. (v.11) And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to full assurance of hope unto the end:

God is not going to forget your works, nor your labor of love toward his name. But you need to show these same works diligence to have full assurance of hope unto the end. Hope of what? Hope of eternal life. To the end of what? To the end of your life or to the coming of the Lord. You must work until the end!

(Rev. 2:26) And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: Again you must work unto the end. (1Peter 1:15-17) (v.15) But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all Manner of conversation; (v.16) Because it is written, BE YE HOLY; FOR I AM HOLY. (V.17) And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

It says you had better be holy, because God is holy. And it also says that ye call on the Father, but you had better remember that he is going to without respect of person judge every man according to his work. So you better pass your time here on earth in fear.

(Rev. 20:12-13) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Who are you allowing to teach you that you need not work to serve the Lord of this bible? (v.13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and dead and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Don’t allow anyone to deceive you! You will be judged according to your works.

peace in jesus name

[Cassidy]

Then I get all the Glory? Is that how it goes! I do good works then I get the Glory and not Christ? And we make ourselves Holy by all these works then again, we get the Glory!

That doesn't seem right to me. Did you read the rest of Hebrews?

[Cassidy]

Galatians 3


O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Chapter 4


Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all.
Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.
And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them.
But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you.
My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

[Cassidy]

Chapter 5


Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

[Cassidy]

Ok now I understand where you are coming from and why you find the need to follow the law...you are not led by the Spirit! I get it now!

Without the Spirit of Christ you are none of His...so all your works of the law are for naught!

[tanzel]

Ok now I understand where you are coming from and why you find the need to follow the law...you are not led by the Spirit! I get it now!

Without the Spirit of Christ you are none of His...so all your works of the law are for naught!
Thank you for opinion

peace in jesus name

[Cassidy]

Not my opinion, sir, it's God's opinion, but that's ok, you won't recognise that until you actually are spirit led.

You can carry on preaching to yourself now, thanks for the discussion.

[tanzel]

Not my opinion, sir, it's God's opinion, but that's ok, you won't recognise that until you actually are spirit led.

You can carry on preaching to yourself now, thanks for the discussion.
You quote pretty much no scripture, no verses and you expect me
to understand where you coming from, so to me its and opinion, its talk.

13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
13:15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. (Matthew 13:13-17)

peace in jesus name

[Cassidy]

I JUST QUOTED YOU 3 CHAPTERS IN GALATIANS!!!!!! And it's there that I recognise that you are not led by the Spirit and that you are still under the law. You are still under a school master sir, and until you have faith, you are going to remain so.


But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

[tanzel]

I JUST QUOTED YOU 3 CHAPTERS IN GALATIANS!!!!!! And it's there that I recognise that you are not led by the Spirit and that you are still under the law. You are still under a school master sir, and until you have faith, you are going to remain so.


But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall
sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: (Leviticus 4:1-2)




The law in the scriptures above is the commandments. Notice something else very important in these two scriptures. It states, "if a soul shall sin through ignorance." Notice that the scripture did not says on purpose. Why? There is no sacrifice for a sin that is committed willfully. Let's find out what was to be done if a person committed a sin against the Lord unintentionally. Let's skip down to the 27th verse and take a look at the second law (which is the sacrificial law).

And if any one of the common people
sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned. And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering. And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar. (Leviticus 4:27-30)

When the common people sinned through ignorance and it came to their knowledge, what did they have to do? They brought an offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for their sin which they had committed, then the priest would offer the animal to the Lord. Think about this for a moment. If an animal was killed for a person that committed sin, what will happen to us today if we a trespass against the Lord? We will find that out later. Now we see how the
sacrificial law was used when a person broke a commandment unintentionally. Let's go into Paul's writings and take another look at both of these laws.

We will go into the Book of Galatians chapter 3. This is one of the chapters that the majority of people use to do away with the Lord's commandments. Now, let's read carefully!

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. (Galatians 3:19)

Now, the Law, is and always been around, remember, cain killed abel in the beginning, so the Lord added another Law,Hundreds of years down the line, which was the animal sacrificial Law

Take heed to what Paul's says above, "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions." What is transgression? Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (I John 3:4) Transgression is braking of the commandments.

What law was added because of the braking of the law? The sacrificial law! Paul is simply asking these Gentiles, "why perform the sacrificial law? It was added because of sin until the seed should come. Who is the seed? Let's back up in this chapter and find out.



Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of one, and
to thy seed, which is Christ. (Galatians 3:16)



Who is the SEED? CHRIST! So, this law was added (which is the sacrificial law) until Christ came. What was the sacrificial law used for until Christ came?

Wherefore
the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. (Galatians 3:24)


The sacrificial law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Before we continue, we must clear one thing up. Are we justified by faith alone?

Let's see. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (Romans 3:31) What law is established? Certainly not the sacrificial law, we have seen above that it was added because of transgression until the Seed came (which was Christ). The law established forever is the Lords commandments! Now, let's back up in this chapter to the third verses and point out the two sets of laws.

peace in jesus name

[tanzel]

I JUST QUOTED YOU 3 CHAPTERS IN GALATIANS!!!!!! And it's there that I recognise that you are not led by the Spirit and that you are still under the law. You are still under a school master sir, and until you have faith, you are going to remain so.


But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Let's go into Paul's writings and take another look at both of these laws. We will go into the Book of Galatians chapter 3. This is one of the chapters that the majority of Christian preachers use to do away with the Lord's commandments. Now, let's read carefully!

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. (Galatians 3:19)
Take heed to what Paul's says above, "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions." What is transgression? Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (I John 3:4)

Transgression is braking of the commandments. What law was added because of the braking of the law? The sacrificial law! Paul is simply asking these Gentiles, "why perform the sacrificial law? It was added because of sin until the seed should come. Who is the seed? Let's back up in this chapter and find out.

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of one, and to thy seed, which is Christ. (Galatians 3:16)
Who is the SEED? CHRIST! So, this law was added (which is the sacrificial law) until Christ came. What was the sacrificial law used for until Christ came?

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. (Galatians 3:24)
The sacrificial law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Before we continue, we must clear one thing up. Are we justified by faith alone? Let's see. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (Romans 3:31) What law is established? Certainly not the sacrificial law, we have seen above that it was added because of transgression until the Seed came (which was Christ). The law established forever is the Lords commandments!

Now, let's back up in this chapter to the third verses and point out the two sets of laws.
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? (Galatians 3:3)

The spirit in this case is the word of God, but pay close attention to what Paul says at the end of the verse. "Are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" Can we be made perfect by the flesh? What flesh is Paul talking about?

Let's go to the book of Hebrews and find out. For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (Hebrews 10:1)

The flesh Paul spoke of was the animal sacrifices. Notice what the verse says, "never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect." That's pretty clear don't you think?

Let's go back to Galatians chapter 3 and take note how Paul uses the word "law" but does not say this is the sacrificial law or the Commandments. But as we read further in the chapter we will see the difference between the two.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. (Galatians 3:10)

[tanzel]

We have both Laws with in this verse. In the first part of the verse where it states, "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse:" This law is the sacrificial law, let's skip to the 13th verse and we will see this clearly.
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: (Galatians 3:13)

Notice what's being said, "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us." How was he made a curse for us? He took on our sins and redeemed us from the curse of the sacrificial law which could never take away sin. Now take a look at the next set of verses and we will see indeed that only the sacrificial law was nailed to the cross.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (Colossians 2:13-14)

Notice this, "He quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. Why was this law (which is the sacrificial law) contrary to us?

Notice this in Hebrews the 10th chapter;
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. (Hebrews 10:4)
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. That is why it was contrary to us. The sacrificial law simply could not make us perfect.

Now let's look at the second half of the 13th verse in the book of Galatians chapter 3. 3

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: (Galatians 3:13) Paul is simply quoting Moses, take a look.

His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance. (Deuteronomy 21:23)

Go into the Book of John chapter 19 verse 31 and you will see that Jesus was removed from the cross before sun down. Let's back up in Galatians chapter 3 to verses 10 and watch how we have a different law in the second half of the verse.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. (Galatians 3:10)
This law is part of the commandments. Once again Paul, is quoting Moses, let's take a look.
Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen. (Deuteronomy 27:26)

Let's take a look at some of these laws in Deuteronomy 27th chapter.

Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger, fatherless, and widow. And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he that lieth with his father's wife; because he uncovereth his father's skirt. And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he that lieth with any manner of beast. And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of his mother. And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he that lieth with his mother in law. And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he that smiteth his neighbour secretly. And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen. (Deuteronomy 27:19-26)

After reading through some of these commandments ask yourself, what's wrong with these laws? If we say we are followers of the Lord shouldn't we keep ourselves from doing these things? Yes! If the sacrificial law was the only law taken away when Jesus was nailed to the cross, which would mean all the other laws are still intact.
Commandments, High and Holy Sabbaths, weekly Sabbaths and the Dietary law.

[Cassidy]

I pray that the Holy Spirit reveals to you how the law is established in your heart through His Spirit. Until then....God Bless and I hope you succeed in your quest for perfection.

[tanzel]

I no you disagree, but did you a lease take time and read the whole post.

[tanzel]

Let's go to the Book of I Timothy chapter one and see if Paul kills the Lords commandments.

Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: (I Timothy 1:5)

What does he mean the end of the commandment is charity? What is charity? It means love fore mankind correct?

Now take a look at these verses in the Book of Romans.

Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. (Romans 13:8-10)

Take heed to what Paul says, "love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love (which is charity) is the fulfilling of the law. Paul says, "If you LOVE your neighbor you will not, commit adultery, kill, steal, bear false witness nor covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Once again Paul is quoting from the books Moses! As a matter of fact Paul was quoting the Lord God, remember the Lord gave the Laws to Moses. Take a look.
Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ---, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. (Exodus 20:13-17)

What do we see here? We see Paul is inline with the rest of the Bible. He is not trying to do away with the Lords commandments. We have to take time and read the whole Bible from Gensis to Revelation, Sisters and Brothers.
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
(Isaiah 8:20) Paul was well aware that the law was to be kept.

[Cassidy]

I skimmed but to be honest I don't work well with long winded text, then other people's interpretation of that text...it kind of reminded me of Charlie Brown in Peanuts and all you hear from his teacher is 'warh warh warh' - sorry!

Another reason why I skimmed it is because I once lived it and had people preaching to me this rubbish all my life. At the age of 19 I ran away from home and the church in which I grew up, and went and did everything they told me not to do. I truly believed I was going to hell anyway and that I could not live up to God's expectations and so I gave up trying because I felt like a complete failure. I followed the commandments TO THE TEE!!! And yet I still felt like I was going to hell.

The fear of losing my salvation was huge in my life...I felt that I lost my salvation, then gained it back again...then lost it again...then gained it back so many times...I just could not live like that anymore!! At one point I attempted suicide because of this belief!

Then one day the Lord heard my cry....I realised that I was right and that I was NEVER going to live up to God's expectations....and suddenly I was ok with that (very humbling) when I realised that I was set free because it was then that I truly exercised the faith I thought I had always had (but couldn't have had) and actually fell into the arms of my Lord and allowed his perfect work to flow through me.

So, I've heard everything you've said before...I've had it shoved down my throat for years, I've even preached it to others....just like you are now! But I was also dead in my works and they meant nothing to God whatsoever! The only thing he does see is Christ's works in me...he sees his perfect son in me and it's Christ's testimony that I live by....not mine!

It's not about me and it never has been...and one day I pray that you find that out too. Meanwhile, again....I hope you find what you are looking for, because you're alone in this quest for perfection because God's not interested, that's why he sent His son.

It's no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me.

[tanzel]

I skimmed but to be honest I don't work well with long winded text, then other people's interpretation of that text...it kind of reminded me of Charlie Brown in Peanuts and all you hear from his teacher is 'warh warh warh' - sorry!

Another reason why I skimmed it is because I once lived it and had people preaching to me this rubbish all my life. At the age of 19 I ran away from home and the church in which I grew up, and went and did everything they told me not to do. I truly believed I was going to hell anyway and that I could not live up to God's expectations and so I gave up trying because I felt like a complete failure. I followed the commandments TO THE TEE!!! And yet I still felt like I was going to hell.

The fear of losing my salvation was huge in my life...I felt that I lost my salvation, then gained it back again...then lost it again...then gained it back so many times...I just could not live like that anymore!! At one point I attempted suicide because of this belief!

Then one day the Lord heard my cry....I realised that I was right and that I was NEVER going to live up to God's expectations....and suddenly I was ok with that (very humbling) when I realised that I was set free because it was then that I truly exercised the faith I thought I had always had (but couldn't have had) and actually fell into the arms of my Lord and allowed his perfect work to flow through me.

So, I've heard everything you've said before...I've had it shoved down my throat for years, I've even preached it to others....just like you are now! But I was also dead in my works and they meant nothing to God whatsoever! The only thing he does see is Christ's works in me...he sees his perfect son in me and it's Christ's testimony that I live by....not mine!

It's not about me and it never has been...and one day I pray that you find that out too. Meanwhile, again....I hope you find what you are looking for, because you're alone in this quest for perfection because God's not interested, that's why he sent His son.

It's no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me.

This maybe more to you, then you think. Let me ask you, you kept
the sabbath day (seventh day) and the lord diatary law and the Holy Days? Statues and Judgements?

[Cassidy]

Nope but through Jesus I do now perfectly and fully!!!!

[tanzel]

Nope but through Jesus I do now perfectly and fully!!!!

You said, "I followed the commandments TO THE TEE!!! And yet I still felt like I was going to hell." If you wasn't keeping the sabbath day (seventh day) and the lord diatary law and the Holy Days? Statues and Judgements? What was you keeping?

peace in jesus name

[Cassidy]

The commandments! The rest of the law I could not keep because all up I think there are 600 odd laws and I didn't even know all of them let alone have the ability to keep them.

Now they are all kept by Christ - Praise be to God!

[tanzel]

The commandments! The rest of the law I could not keep because all up I think there are 600 odd laws and I didn't even know all of them let alone have the ability to keep them.

Now they are all kept by Christ - Praise be to God!

Well lets talk about the ten commandments for now, can we?
I want us to reason together, my thing is if a person disagree
thats find, I don't have the attitude to force people to agree
with me, I leave it to themselfs to make up their own mind.
But I think people are not taking the time to at least read my
post and try to at least understand what I'm saying, before they
disagree. So if we can reason together, thats find if not I understand.

peace in jesus name

[Cassidy]

Sir I understand your posts...I just don't agree with your interpretation of scripture. I don't wish to be brought back into bondage I am a lot more assured of who I am in Christ now that I no longer rely on my own works of the law for my salvation. I'd rather not be preached to by those who's interpretation is based on lies.

but thanks anyway.

[tanzel]

Sir I understand your posts...I just don't agree with your interpretation of scripture. I don't wish to be brought back into bondage I am a lot more assured of who I am in Christ now that I no longer rely on my own works of the law for my salvation. I'd rather not be preached to by those who's interpretation is based on lies.

but thanks anyway.
Ok

peace in jesus name

[AlwaysBe]

Hi tanzel and Cassidy

Its taken me a while to read the whole thread but Ive finally done it!

Ive always wondered what the deal is with faith and works. I think both of you make very good points but I tend to agree more with Cassidy. The reason why Jesus died for worthless pitiful sinners like us is because He knew without His death, it just would not be possible for us to have eternal life. That says something. Us alone, no matter how hard we try or how much good works we do, without faith in Christ, it is all worth nothing. If Jesus did not exist, then yes I believe we will be judged by our works but because Jesus exists, His very existence is the reason why we can have hope that we will be made perfect through Him. In another word, He covers up all of our faults, weaknesses and sins.

However, I also agree with you tanzel that works is very very important. We can't rest easy and take things as they come just because we have faith. Works alone cannot save us. Faith alone CAN save us but faith CANNOT exist with works because the fruits of our faith is the good works we do :)

I think it's quite simple if we think of it this way. Faith and works go hand in hand. Whilst works can exist without faith, true faith doesnt exist without good works. I guess that really puts things into perspective because I know I'm definitely guilty of being one that has faith without much good works to show.

take care guys!

Michael

[Cassidy]

Faith in christ shows the works of CHRIST not ours! Dead faith equals dead works. God isn't interested in dead works, they are as filthy rags to the Lord. But the only works that God is interested in is Christ's and only through faith can Christ's works show through us. Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please Him because we're doing it on our own, instead of allowing Christ's finished works on the cross to shine through. Abraham's faith is what saved him NOT his works.

Michael if you don't have 'good works to show' and you claim you have faith...then I'd question your faith and not your works. Works can only be possible through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Are you the one doing the works or is Christ??? You have it wrong WORKS cannot exist withough FAITH not the other way round.

The old covenant was to show that man needed a saviour. Man's pitiful attempts at trying to 'get to heaven' through works and rituals and observances are for naught. For if they actually did something...then we wouldn't need Christ. He may as well have saved a trip and allowed us to continue in these dead works. Abraham looked forward to Christ and you can see the work of GOD in him. We are to look back to Christ so that others can see the work of God in us.

It's no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me.

[tanzel]

Faith in christ shows the works of CHRIST not ours! Dead faith equals dead works. God isn't interested in dead works, they are as filthy rags to the Lord. But the only works that God is interested in is Christ's and only through faith can Christ's works show through us. Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please Him because we're doing it on our own, instead of allowing Christ's finished works on the cross to shine through. Abraham's faith is what saved him NOT his works.

Michael if you don't have 'good works to show' and you claim you have faith...then I'd question your faith and not your works. Works can only be possible through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Are you the one doing the works or is Christ??? You have it wrong WORKS cannot exist withough FAITH not the other way round.

The old covenant was to show that man needed a saviour. Man's pitiful attempts at trying to 'get to heaven' through works and rituals and observances are for naught. For if they actually did something...then we wouldn't need Christ. He may as well have saved a trip and allowed us to continue in these dead works. Abraham looked forward to Christ and you can see the work of GOD in him. We are to look back to Christ so that others can see the work of God in us.

It's no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me.

(Gal. 3:11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH. This didn’t start in the New Testament, Paul was only quoting scripture, and the just has always lived by their faith. (Hab. 2:4) Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

The just shall live by his belief (faith), and how do you show the Lord that you believe in him? By your obedience to his word.

(1Tim. 6:17-19) (v.17) Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not high-minded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; (v.18) That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; (v.19) Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

Riches and gains that is the doctrine of today, they are preaching the gospel of prosperity and not the gospel of the coming of the kingdom of God. But the Lord said to charge them that are rich in this world that they be not high-minded, but that they should be rich in good works that they may lay hold on eternal life.

(James 2:14-18, 20-26) (v.14) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? (v.15) If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of a daily food, (v.16) And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

If someone came to you hungry and needed clothes and all you told them was peace be unto you, and God bless you, be ye warmed and filled. All you did was give lip service, no works, you didn’t help the problem.

(v.17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. The bible has been telling you all alone that you must have fruits to prove your faith. (v.18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. True faith goes hand in hand with good works. (v.20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Did you know that? Has anybody ever read this verse to you? How can you, after reading this verse ever say again that we need not work? You can have all the faith you want, but if you have no works to go along with that faith, that faith is in vain, that faith is dead.

(v.21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? We read where Abraham, the father of the faithful showed the Lord his faith by his works. (v.22) Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? (v.23)
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND IT WAS IMPUTED UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS: and he was called the friend of God. (v.24) Ye see then how that by works a man is Justified, and not by faith only.

Do you see that also? Do you understand that you need works to go along with that faith; if you love and fear God then you should have no problem obeying his commandments.

(v.25) Likewise also was not Ra’-hab the harlot justified by works, when she received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? Ra’-hab showed her faith in God and her fear of God by doing good works. (v.26) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Take it or leave it, but this is the true uncut word of God. Just as the body is dead when you take away the spirit (breath) so faith is dead if you have no works.

peace in jesus name

[Cassidy]

With all due respect, Tanzel, my post was directed at Michael. I no longer wish to hear anymore of your interpretation of the word.

[tanzel]

With all due respect, Tanzel, my post was directed at Michael. I no longer wish to hear anymore of your interpretation of the word.

peace in jesus name

[AlwaysBe]

hey cassidy :)

I've learnt that when there is any discussion about religion or faith, its a very sensitive and personal issue, so its best not to say things like 'you should question your faith or your wrong'. This could be taken as an attack on ones beliefs / faith and lead to hurt feelings, which I doubt Jesus would want from us. If there can be no discussion through love I guess its best to leave it alone.

"Faith in christ shows the works of CHRIST not ours! Dead faith equals dead works. God isn't interested in dead works, they are as filthy rags to the Lord. But the only works that God is interested in is Christ's and only through faith can Christ's works show through us. Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please Him because we're doing it on our own, instead of allowing Christ's finished works on the cross to shine through. Abraham's faith is what saved him NOT his works." - cassidy

I agree totally that good works count for nothing without faith in Jesus. I agree that through faith in Christ we let Christ to shine through us. You mentioned Abraham? My understanding is that Abraham had faith in God so he decided to ACT on it by trusting Him and sacrificed his son. God was very happy and proud of Abraham because he showed his complete trust and faith in Him by DOING what he was told to do. See the relationship there between faith and works? God gave Abraham the choice. He was testing him. Would Abraham who confesses to loving God give up his beloved son just because He asked him to? The ACT of sacrificing his son was a choice which Abraham made because of his FAITH in God. It wasn't the act of God or Gods own works which made Abraham offer up his son.

Let me give you an example of 3 people I know -

1. A person who because of his faith in God decides to challenge himself everyday to do more for God. Things like, contributing more money for Church projects, helping people in need, praying for other people, providing services for troubled youth, organizing clothes, food and blankets for the homeless etc. He does this because he wants to please God and has faith in Him. These are personal choices he is making here.

2. A person who believes in God yet doesn't challenge himself daily to do more for Gods cause. He still prays and praises God, reads the Bible and tries to be as sin free as possible but doesn't do much else besides that.

3. A person who believes his faith in God is enough and is secure in the knowledge that through faith and Gods grace, he is saved.

Which one will God be pleased with most?

The point I'm trying to make is that everyone has a choice. We've been given free will. We can choose to do more for God and we can choose to do less for God. We can choose to sin and we can choose not to sin. Yes it is ultimately Christ who does good works through us and provides us with what we need to do good works. BUT that wouldn't be possible unless WE also wanted to do more for Him because of our faith in Him. I dont think God will force us to do what He wants. He wants us to make that choice ourselves and come to Him in faith and love, ready to obey his instructions so that we can be of use to Him. Even Adam and Eve had the choice to do good works or bad works. We know what happened there. They chose to eat the apple. God did not force them to eat the apple or not eat the apple. It was a choice given to them.

Faith in Christ that He will be the one doing good works through us sounds good but faith alone wont get the job done, we are all given choices and opportunities in life so its up to us to take that initial step IN FAITH and try to do as much as we can for God, instead of waiting around for God to do something. We might be the one taking the initial step by making the choice to act or do good works but its God who is providing us with everything we need to do them so I guess its a bit like a partnership, just like faith and works are :)

Take care!

Michael

[ozell]

Brother Tanzel

A person who refuses to keep the commandments of God most likely is immoral.

A person who refuses to acknowledge stealing killing or lying is wrong is a doer of breaking these Laws.

what man or woman of moral standard would want to be around someone who approves of breaking the commandments of God.

The Lord said

Rv 22v12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13: I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

if people refuse to do God's commandments so much for there blessing
so much for them having rights to the tree of life, and there is NO way will they enter into the gates ofNew Jerusalem.

15: For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

if people would look at this verse and the commandments of God they will see the God of the bible don't lie.

[Cassidy]

hey cassidy :)

I've learnt that when there is any discussion about religion or faith, its a very sensitive and personal issue, so its best not to say things like 'you should question your faith or your wrong'. This could be taken as an attack on ones beliefs / faith and lead to hurt feelings, which I doubt Jesus would want from us. If there can be no discussion through love I guess its best to leave it alone.

Well I do think that it's important to see these things though. It was said in love....let me assure you of that ;) I guess it's hard to see that on a forum but it was. But I see your point....maybe the wording could have been thought out better.

I agree totally that good works count for nothing without faith in Jesus. I agree that through faith in Christ we let Christ to shine through us. You mentioned Abraham? My understanding is that Abraham had faith in God so he decided to ACT on it by trusting Him and sacrificed his son. God was very happy and proud of Abraham because he showed his complete trust and faith in Him by DOING what he was told to do. See the relationship there between faith and works? God gave Abraham the choice. He was testing him. Would Abraham who confesses to loving God give up his beloved son just because He asked him to? The ACT of sacrificing his son was a choice which Abraham made because of his FAITH in God. It wasn't the act of God or Gods own works which made Abraham offer up his son.

You are right, on Abraham's case but remember Abraham didn't have Christ as his saviour so his whole salvation was based on faith - and therfore works as well. But ours is the same in that faith is what saves us but the works is something that just happens because we have faith. And these works, aren't even our works...they are Christ's works. Sure we can refuse to walk in the spirit and therefore refuse the work of Christ also but then the Holy Spirit convicts us and leads us back to Christ and we then follow through what Christ had planned originally.

Kind of like Jonah...he was told to go to ninevah and he didn't. So God caused a whale to swallow him and then Jonah said "Gee...maybe I should have gone to ninevah" LOL This is what God does for us, but spiritually...a big Spiritual whale ;)

Let me give you an example of 3 people I know -

1. A person who because of his faith in God decides to challenge himself everyday to do more for God. Things like, contributing more money for Church projects, helping people in need, praying for other people, providing services for troubled youth, organizing clothes, food and blankets for the homeless etc. He does this because he wants to please God and has faith in Him. These are personal choices he is making here.

2. A person who believes in God yet doesn't challenge himself daily to do more for Gods cause. He still prays and praises God, reads the Bible and tries to be as sin free as possible but doesn't do much else besides that.

3. A person who believes his faith in God is enough and is secure in the knowledge that through faith and Gods grace, he is saved.

Which one will God be pleased with most?

None! Because the actions that the first man has taken were his own decisions and his own works FOR God then they're not Christ's works...but his own. Person B is worrying too much about 'not' sinning so any works that he does is so that he doesn't sin rather than them being of God. Person C is waiting on the Lord and resting his faith on Him. This will only ever produce the works of Christ - and it's Christ's works that God is pleased with and this can only be acheived through faith.

The point I'm trying to make is that everyone has a choice. We've been given free will.
We can choose to do more for God and we can choose to do less for God.

Or we can choose to allow Christ to do for God ;)

We can choose to sin and we can choose not to sin. Yes it is ultimately Christ who does good works through us and provides us with what we need to do good works. BUT

No buts!! You've got it! ;)

that wouldn't be possible unless WE also wanted to do more for Him because of our faith in Him.

No see this is where people get stuck. God gives us his desires. His desires become our desires. And through faith we are able to perform his desires through Christ. You see what I'm saying. It's not about us...it's never about us!


I dont think God will force us to do what He wants.

He doesn't have to...it's Christ's nature to do what God wants...therefore it's our nature also.

He wants us to make that choice ourselves and come to Him in faith and love, ready to obey his instructions so that we can be of use to Him.

No see God is not dependant on us for Good works...we are dependant on Him.

Even Adam and Eve had the choice to do good works or bad works. We know what happened there. They chose to eat the apple. God did not force them to eat the apple or not eat the apple. It was a choice given to them.

Faith in Christ that He will be the one doing good works through us sounds good but faith alone wont get the job done

Yes it will.

we are all given choices and opportunities in life so its up to us to take that initial step IN FAITH

See my sig ;)

and try to do as much as we can for God,

but in Christ we don't have to 'try' - there is no try, If we are in Christ there is only 'do'...but Christ's 'doing' not ours or we could boast!

instead of waiting around for God to do something.

Passage Isaiah 40:31:

31But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.


We might be the one taking the initial step by making the choice to act or do good works but its God who is providing us with everything we need to do them so I guess its a bit like a partnership, just like faith and works are :)

Any steps that we take are the Lord's steps - not ours!

See it's not about us! It's never about us at all. It's all about Christ and his finished work on the cross. You either abide in him or you're going it by yourself. There is no partnership! The works that you do should not be your works...for if they are then they'd be as filthy rags. The works that you do are Christ's works - end of story, no glory goes to you whatsoever!

[Cassidy]

Ok I've thought about it and thought that maybe the best way to express what I mean by this 'works' thing is by giving you an example of something that happened in my walk. Sure beats rambling on...this way I put my money where my mouth is ;)

Anyway...

There was this lady in my church who's husband had left her and her kids. She was a mess and not coping well at all. The Lord put it on my heart to go and buy groceries for her and her family, because I'm sure that the last thing she was thinking was groceries at that point.

Now I could have ignored this, but then the urgency would have gotten worse and worse to the point where I couldn't take it anymore and I'd have to do it anyway. But I did do it and delivered them to the lady and even stayed while she cried on my shoulder.

She thanked me but I assured her that it wasn't me but Christ that she should be praising because it was Him who knew exactly what she needed.

This urgency I'm talking about could even cause you pain. If you go against your nature for too long, you have to come back into line because you hurt so much.

Like if you were to take your finger and bend it back it would cause you pain, because you are forcing your finger to do what is not natural for it to do. Sure you can bend your finger back and if you continued the pain will just get worse and worse to the point where you just can't take it anymore and you MUST let go.

You could argue and say that what if you didn't let go and broke your finger...then I would say that your finger will then end up in a cast...but the end result is still the same your finger is going to go back to it's natural state.

This is the same with our new nature. It's not within our nature to sin or to disobey God...but if we were to then it will cause pain. And if we continued it will cause more pain to the point where it is unbearable and you HAVE to let go and return to your true nature in Christ. If you are broken then the Lord will fix you back into place. But the point is....our new nature is not of sin! If we sin...it hurts and we cannot continue in it. If we disobey - it hurts and we can't continue in it. The Holy Spirit will ALWAYS bring us back to our new nature in Christ.

The Shepherd doesn't lose sheep.

That's the best I can do without rambling on any further :)

[AlwaysBe]

"You are right, on Abraham's case but remember Abraham didn't have Christ as his saviour so his whole salvation was based on faith - and therfore works as well. But ours is the same in that faith is what saves us but the works is something that just happens because we have faith. And these works, aren't even our works...they are Christ's works. Sure we can refuse to walk in the spirit and therefore refuse the work of Christ also but then the Holy Spirit convicts us and leads us back to Christ and we then follow through what Christ had planned originally.

Kind of like Jonah...he was told to go to ninevah and he didn't. So God caused a whale to swallow him and then Jonah said "Gee...maybe I should have gone to ninevah" LOL This is what God does for us, but spiritually...a big Spiritual whale"

Ahh I see your point. Let me get this right. Your saying that Abrahams case is different because there was no Jesus back then? So ultimately, after Jesus died on the cross, every good works we do out of faith is done by Christ Himself? So this whole idea of free will doesnt matter that much because eventually even if we choose to be disobedient, we will end up doing what God wants from us anyway? That's a very interesting idea. I don't understand why we are given the ability to choose. Or why many of us struggle to make the right choice and do the right thing if eventually God will make us do the right thing anyway. What happens to the people who choose to disobey and as you say the Holy Spirit convicts him to do the right thing but they still choose to disobey?


"See it's not about us! It's never about us at all. It's all about Christ and his finished work on the cross. You either abide in him or you're going it by yourself. There is no partnership! The works that you do should not be your works...for if they are then they'd be as filthy rags. The works that you do are Christ's works - end of story, no glory goes to you whatsoever!"

I disagree with you. Why? Just because I choose to do the right thing and do good work, out of faith in God, doesn't mean my good work is solely for my benefit, for myself or for my purpose. Nor does it mean that I'm going to take the credit and glory for myself. It simply means becasue of my faith in God, it produced the desire and want to do good works. Yes God challenges us in our hearts to act or do something, but ultimately that choice had to be made. By who? By us. Thats why I believe free will is the key to our discussion. Us choosing to do the right thing, choosing to do good work, choosing to obey etc. is so much different than God doing everything through us without any input from us. If that was the case and we had no choice in the matter, then God would probably do good works through every one of us in this world or every one of us Christians :)

I believe God doesn't force people to obey. He gives us the free will to choose and obey. It's everywhere in the Bible, starting from Adam and Eve to the days of Noah and Sodom and Gomorrah, Moses and Peter denying Jesus three times. Christ allowed Peter to deny Him three times. Peter made that choice. God didn't stop him from that although He already know it would happen. Why? Because He doesn't force people to do something against their will or force them to obey and follow His ways. If He did force people or as you say, eventually get them to do what He wants, then everybody would be going to heaven. He teaches us how to live, how to follow Him and through our faith in Him we choose to either obey or disobey, listen or not listen, do good works or not do good works, follow or not follow, sin or not sin.


"but in Christ we don't have to 'try' - there is no try, If we are in Christ there is only 'do'...but Christ's 'doing' not ours or we could boast!"

Unfortunately if what you said above is true then I'm definitely not in Christ. It's scary and sad. I know for me, it's a daily battle and struggle to try do the right thing and do good work. Fortunately, that's where Gods grace and love comes in. Jesus dying on the cross is so that sinners like me can hope and continue to fight to live a pure life. I think God understands that the best of us still do stumble, fall down and go astray. I also believe it's entirely possible to choose to do good works and not boast or take glory for myself, rather recognizing that yes I did choose to make the right choice but without God it wouldn't have been possible :)


"Passage Isaiah 40:31:

31But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint."

You quoted that verse previously. My point about waiting was that, just waiting for God to do something or waiting for God to answer your prayers, without doing anything doesn't sit right with me. There is a time to wait and time to act. I think its a combination of praying, believing (faith) and acting on that belief, instead of sitting idly just hoping something will happen. Sometimes just hoping works. I know its happened to me before but it happens very seldomly.


Thats it from me. Take care!

Michael

[rob64]

This is what people seem to omit, or just forgot or something;

WE WERE NEVER UNDER THE LAW IN THE FIRST PLACE. GOD GAVE THE LAW TO THE JEWS, EVERY LETTER OF IT- INCLUDING THE 10 COMMANDMENTS IT WAS PART OF GOD'S COVENANT TO THE JEWS. NOT TO ANY OTHER RACE, BUT TO HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE. ISRAEL.
AT THE SAME TIME, GOD SAID THAT ONE DAY HE WOULD WRITE HIS COMMANDMENTS IN PEOPLES HEARTS.

SINCE THE ANIMAL SACRIFICES COULD ONLY COVER SIN, AND NOT ELIMINATE IT, GOD OFFERED ANOTHER WAY, JESUS CHRIST- A MESSIAH, A REDEEMER, A KING, A MEDIATOR, A PRIEST, A FINAL SACRIFICE, A HUMAN SACRIFICE THAT WOULD DEFEAT sATAN, AND CONQUER SIN, NOT JUST COVER IT. THE KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS!

BUT THIS MESSIAH WAS ONLY OFFERED TO THE JEWS. THEY WERE LOOKING FOR AN EARTHLY KING WHO WOULD SAVE THEM FROM ROMAN RULE AND PERSECUTION.

THEY DID NOT ACCEPT JESUS AS THEIR SAVIOR, SO THATS WHEN EVERYONE ELSE CAME INTO THE PICTURE. HE THEN OFFERED THE PLAN OF SALVATION AND JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH TO ALL MANKIND. BECAUSE OF THE REJECTION OF THE JEWS

THATS WHY THE BIBLE SAYS WE WERE GRAFTED IN. THATS WHY PAUL WROTE MANY MANY WORD ABOUT SALVATION BY FAITH AND JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH AND NOT WORKS. WORKS ARE A PRODUCT OF GRACE. FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT ARE PROOF OF ONES SALVATION. THE BEATITUDES GO HAND IN HAND. WE ARE THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD, A MANIFESTATION OF JESUS IN US. WE ARE NOT TOLD TO MAKE OUR LIGHT SHINE, WE ARE TOLD TO ALLOW IT TO SHINE. WHEN WE START GETTING TALKED ABOUT AND REVILED, AND PERSECUTED, WE WANT TO HIDE OUR LIGHT UNDER A BUSHEL, BUT JESUS SAID TO LET IT SHINE. IT AUTOMATICLY SHINES IN A CHRISTIAN, WE DONT HAVE TO CAUSE IT TO SHINE, IT JUST DOES.
THAT'S FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT !!!

[Cassidy]

Ahh I see your point. Let me get this right. Your saying that Abrahams case is different because there was no Jesus back then? So ultimately, after Jesus died on the cross, every good works we do out of faith is done by Christ Himself? So this whole idea of free will doesnt matter that much because eventually even if we choose to be disobedient, we will end up doing what God wants from us anyway? That's a very interesting idea. I don't understand why we are given the ability to choose. Or why many of us struggle to make the right choice and do the right thing if eventually God will make us do the right thing anyway. What happens to the people who choose to disobey and as you say the Holy Spirit convicts him to do the right thing but they still choose to disobey?

Yes they will because Jesus said that the sheep hear his voice and follow him. If you are a sheep you WILL hear his voice and you WILL follow him.


I disagree with you. Why? Just because I choose to do the right thing and do good work, out of faith in God, doesn't mean my good work is solely for my benefit, for myself or for my purpose. Nor does it mean that I'm going to take the credit and glory for myself. It simply means becasue of my faith in God, it produced the desire and want to do good works.

And these desires are given to you by God. You're starting to understand where I'm coming from. You choose because you desire to do the right thing...and these desires are not your desires but God's desires!

Yes God challenges us in our hearts to act or do something, but ultimately that choice had to be made. By who? By us. Thats why I believe free will is the key to our discussion.

I don't believe in free will. I believe in limited free will. We can only ever have the free will to move within our nature. It is against our nature to disobey God...we can chose to but we can only do what our natures allow. Like you can fly if you wanted to...you have free will to fly...but you don't have wings so you can't! Doesn't mean you are not free, it just means you are limited to your nature.

Us choosing to do the right thing, choosing to do good work, choosing to obey etc. is so much different than God doing everything through us without any input from us. If that was the case and we had no choice in the matter, then God would probably do good works through every one of us in this world or every one of us Christians :)

He does...he does the work through every single Christians. Even the ones that have strayed he brings back into the fold for his own purpose and his will. He is in control.

I believe God doesn't force people to obey.

He doesn't have to. It's within our nature to obey.

He gives us the free will to choose and obey.

Just like he did Jonah but then God was still in control - how is that so?

It's everywhere in the Bible, starting from Adam and Eve to the days of Noah and Sodom and Gomorrah, Moses and Peter denying Jesus three times. Christ allowed Peter to deny Him three times. Peter made that choice. God didn't stop him from that although He already know it would happen. Why? Because He doesn't force people to do something against their will or force them to obey and follow His ways.

He doesn't have to force born again Christians - because it's our new nature in Christ. It's natural it's not forced! If God wants something done do you think a little thing like 'free will' is going to get in his way?

If He did force people or as you say, eventually get them to do what He wants, then everybody would be going to heaven. He teaches us how to live, how to follow Him and through our faith in Him we choose to either obey or disobey, listen or not listen, do good works or not do good works, follow or not follow, sin or not sin.

A born again Christian doesn't have to be forced to do anything.


Unfortunately if what you said above is true then I'm definitely not in Christ. It's scary and sad. I know for me, it's a daily battle and struggle to try do the right thing and do good work.

Not necessarily. You just haven't come to the realisation that the battle has already been won by Christ. You can rest from your labours now - in Christ! Allow Christ to do the work (faith) then you'll start seeing all the 'works' that results.

Fortunately, that's where Gods grace and love comes in. Jesus dying on the cross is so that sinners like me can hope and continue to fight to live a pure life.

Fight? But you've already won! You either believe it or you don't.

I think God understands that the best of us still do stumble,

Yes and he picks us up.

fall down

He upholds him with is hand and they will not be cast down.

and go astray.

He will leave the 99 and go and find the one that has gone astray.

I also believe it's entirely possible to choose to do good works and not boast or take glory for myself, rather recognizing that yes I did choose to make the right choice but without God it wouldn't have been possible :)

Then you can take the credit for your choice! Good for you :) Well done!


You quoted that verse previously. My point about waiting was that, just waiting for God to do something or waiting for God to answer your prayers, without doing anything doesn't sit right with me. There is a time to wait and time to act. I think its a combination of praying, believing (faith) and acting on that belief, instead of sitting idly just hoping something will happen. Sometimes just hoping works. I know its happened to me before but it happens very seldomly.

Sitting back and letting go and letting God works ALL THE TIME!

[tanzel]

Brother Tanzel

A person who refuses to keep the commandments of God most likely is immoral.

A person who refuses to acknowledge stealing killing or lying is wrong is a doer of breaking these Laws.

what man or woman of moral standard would want to be around someone who approves of breaking the commandments of God.

The Lord said

Rv 22v12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13: I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

if people refuse to do God's commandments so much for there blessing
so much for them having rights to the tree of life, and there is NO way will they enter into the gates ofNew Jerusalem.

15: For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

if people would look at this verse and the commandments of God they will see the God of the bible don't lie.
praise the Lord

Its always good to hear a person with some good understanding in the word of God.

peace in jesus name

[tanzel]

(Heb. 6:10-11) (v.10) For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. (v.11) And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to full assurance of hope unto the end: God is not going to forget your works, nor your labor of love toward his name. But you need to show these same works diligence to have full assurance of hope unto the end. Hope of what? Hope of eternal life. To the end of what? To the end of your life or to the coming of the Lord. You must work until the end! (Rev. 2:26) And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: Again you must work unto the end. (1Peter 1:15-17) (v.15) But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all Manner of conversation; (v.16)

Because it is written, BE YE HOLY; FOR I AM HOLY. (V.17) And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: It says you had better be holy, because God is holy. And it also says that ye call on the Father, but you had better remember that he is going to without respect of person judge every man according to his work. So you better pass your time here on earth in fear.

And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. (Luke 12:4,5)

[AlwaysBe]

hi cassidy :)

You have a good talent at taking words out of context!

Whatever my view or yours, we will not be able to convince each other so lets leave it at that. Agree to disagree. Its been interesting.

Take care!

Michael

[Cassidy]

Well actually quite the opposite! I keep to the word....others like to add their own little interpretation there and the word gets lost. Paul talks about the Galatians being under the law and christ being of no effect. It's quite simple really when you look at what the whole point of Christ dying on the cross is all about.

But anyway. You don't have to agree with me that's ok :)

[AlwaysBe]

I don't think anybody is arguing with you on that point :)

I try my best to understand the Bible under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and I'm sure this applies to many other Christians beside yourself cassidy. Too bad we all have our own interpretation of whats important and whats not. I'm sure we will know when we stand before God anyway.

I'm a firm believer that faith and good works are linked. Good works is the fruits of having faith in God. Who wouldn't want to do good works when their passion and love is to please God and obey Him? Its quite simple to understand :)

Take care all!

Michael

[ozell]

rob64;48899415]This is what people seem to omit, or just forgot or something;

WE WERE NEVER UNDER THE LAW IN THE FIRST PLACE. GOD GAVE THE LAW TO THE JEWS, EVERY LETTER OF IT- INCLUDING THE 10 COMMANDMENTS IT WAS PART OF GOD'S COVENANT TO THE JEWS. NOT TO ANY OTHER RACE, BUT TO HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE. ISRAEL.
AT THE SAME TIME, GOD SAID THAT ONE DAY HE WOULD WRITE HIS COMMANDMENTS IN PEOPLES HEARTS.

Nonsense!!
Adam knew the Law was he a Jew?
Cain knew the Law was he a Jew?
Abraham knew the law was he a Jew?

Rv 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

why was Jesus slain? Before the world was created this had to happen.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;



SINCE THE ANIMAL SACRIFICES COULD ONLY COVER SIN, AND NOT ELIMINATE IT, GOD OFFERED ANOTHER WAY, JESUS CHRIST- A MESSIAH, A REDEEMER, A KING, A MEDIATOR, A PRIEST, A FINAL SACRIFICE, A HUMAN SACRIFICE THAT WOULD DEFEAT sATAN, AND CONQUER SIN, NOT JUST COVER IT. THE KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS!

BUT THIS MESSIAH WAS ONLY OFFERED TO THE JEWS. THEY WERE LOOKING FOR AN EARTHLY KING WHO WOULD SAVE THEM FROM ROMAN RULE AND PERSECUTION.

then why did the Father say

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It doed not say forGod so loved the Jews!

THEY DID NOT ACCEPT JESUS AS THEIR SAVIOR, SO THATS WHEN EVERYONE ELSE CAME INTO THE PICTURE. HE THEN OFFERED THE PLAN OF SALVATION AND JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH TO ALL MANKIND. BECAUSE OF THE REJECTION OF THE JEWS

salvation was put on the table for Adam, Noah, Abraham was these men Jews? Will they get salvation.


THATS WHY THE BIBLE SAYS WE WERE GRAFTED IN. THATS WHY PAUL WROTE MANY MANY WORD ABOUT SALVATION BY FAITH AND JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH AND NOT WORKS. WORKS ARE A PRODUCT OF GRACE. FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT ARE PROOF OF ONES SALVATION. THE BEATITUDES GO HAND IN HAND. WE ARE THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD, A MANIFESTATION OF JESUS IN US. WE ARE NOT TOLD TO MAKE OUR LIGHT SHINE, WE ARE TOLD TO ALLOW IT TO SHINE. WHEN WE START GETTING TALKED ABOUT AND REVILED, AND PERSECUTED, WE WANT TO HIDE OUR LIGHT UNDER A BUSHEL, BUT JESUS SAID TO LET IT SHINE. IT AUTOMATICLY SHINES IN A CHRISTIAN, WE DONT HAVE TO CAUSE IT TO SHINE, IT JUST DOES.

what works is Paul talking about? There many forms of works in the bible and Pauls writings.

[ozell]

I don't think anybody is arguing with you on that point :)

I try my best to understand the Bible under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and I'm sure this applies to many other Christians beside yourself cassidy. Too bad we all have our own interpretation of whats important and whats not. I'm sure we will know when we stand before God anyway.

I'm a firm believer that faith and good works are linked. Good works is the fruits of having faith in God. Who wouldn't want to do good works when their passion and love is to please God and obey Him? Its quite simple to understand :)

Take care all!

Michael

so how do one please and obey God?

Having faith don't prove that you can please or obey God.

hindu's believe in a God
Muslims believe in a God
Christians believe in God

SO!!!

What God????

[AlwaysBe]

so how do one please and obey God?

Having faith don't prove that you can please or obey God.

hindu's believe in a God
Muslims believe in a God
Christians believe in God

SO!!!

What God????

I don't understand what you are trying to say. The difference between hindus or muslims and us Christians is because we believe Jesus is the Son of God and through the sacrifice He made, we are saved in Him. They don't bel