Tolkien, Star Wars, and other demons in disquise

[Wade Smith]

" A little leaven leavens the whole lump"

Lord of the Rings
Lion, witch, and the wardrobe
Harry Potter
Magic the Gathering
Dungeons and Dragons (heavily draws on LotR)
Wheel of Time
Sword of Truth (anything but)
Star Wars
Warcraft
Starcraft
Diablo
and many other video games
and many, many other similar works.

All occult, all of the devil,all anti-biblical, whatever their authors may have said or intended when writing or making them.

You know, I've seen many debates about Tolkien and the Lord of the Rings and similar writings, such as C.S. Lewis as well as the "Harry Potter" books, and I don't know what the people's intentions were when they were writing these books, but the fruit is not good. I realize some Christians claim that tolkien was writing an allegory, andit is also common knowledge that C.S. Lewis was attempting to write an allegory.

However, good intentions don't produce good fruit.

Now you may disagree, but keep reading.

We all know what the Bible says against wizardry, necromancy, magic, soothsaying, etc, so I don't feel the need to quote every Bible verse about it, but I will if necessary. I'll just use one passage from the Old Testament and one from the New.

Deut. 18:10There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.

11Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. 13Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

Revelation 22:15
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

===

Now, we know what the Word of God says about wizards and similar things.

We know what Lord of the Rings is all about: A wizard who calls on his God "illuvatar" to have power, and leads a bunch of hobbits around trying to destroy the "one ring".


I don't want to touch this too much, because I try not to think about it.

But those who love tolkien may say, "Oh, but its just a 'story' about "good" vs "evil"."

However, the "Good" wizard, according to the Bible, is also "evil" simply because of the fact that he is a wizard!

Also because he recieves his power from another "god/creator" who is called illuvatar, the "Flame of Mayar", he is evil. The whole book is evil and of the devil. Ironically, "illuvatar" in "elvish" in the book means "Light Bringer" which is exactly what "Lucifer" means in the Bible.


Now, whatever "good" intentions Tolkien and Lewis had in these books of theirs, the fruit of the thing is evil.

They are "innocent" fairy tales, you say.

Well, so did I years ago, and nobody could tell me any different either.

God convicted me, but I didn't listen.


I was first introduced to Tolkien in 4th grade with "The hobbit", as the english teacher would read this book for maybe 30 minutes per day for a while. (why I don't know, we should have been doing something constructive.)

At any rate, the "authority figure" sets it before us kids and of course it is presented as "good" and "just a fairy tale", but all fairy tales are lies to begin with, and therefore not good.

Anyway, this became the seed of the occult, and I will just say that I was never "doing" occult things, like a real wiccan or whatever, and certainly not knowingly, but I'll explain what I'm talking about shortly.

So about 2 years later, my family moved from where we lived then, and I was in a new school, and found the works of tolkien in the library and began to read it. After all, they said, "Its just an 'innocent' fairy tale for teens and young adults."


So, like so many teens in my generation, I read about wizards and dragons and hobbits and ring wraiths and other such satanic nonsense on weekdays, and then on sundays and wednesday nights, went to church.

My parents did not know I read it, and neither of them had ever read it, but I know now that if my dad had seen it and knew what it was about, he would have shown me from the Bible what was wrong with it. I should have known, but just somehow compartmentalized it, like so many do today.

In the 9th grade, Tolkien became the "gateway drug" to the next "innocent" occult thing, which I'm sure so many are familliar with here tody, which is "Magic: The Gathering".

Now I began playing this "Collectible Card Game". And this time, my dad found out about it, because I got my cousin and a best friend involved in it too, after all, like everything demonic, the first thing the devil wants to do is get you doing it with your friends, so you keep one another in it.

Well, Dad found out, and this time he did tell me what the Bible said about it, but I fell back on the "Innocent game" and "innocent fairy tale" argument. "It's just a game. I'm not a wizard. It's ok..."


Now I didn't get an allowance, first of all, parents didn't have enough money to give one, and second, nothing in life is free (except the Gospel).

So the money I had, I earned it by cutting grass and working in a hay field and other odds and ends things, from ages really below legal limit. I was still only 13-14 at this time (due to my birth date, I was a year younger than most anyone else in my class).

But the point is, like nearly everyone who plays this card game, it immediately became a bondage. I mean immediately. I couldn't see it and wouldn't admit it when anyone confronted me about it, but I Spent nearly ever dime I made on it. (and the "star wars" card game as well).

I've since discovered that most people who started playing these trading card games CANNOT quit, even when they want to, but I didn't realize it then.

So on June 19, 1995, I was at a "Church of God" youth camp, as I remember, on a wednesday night.

The pastor preached on Matthew 5:13-16.

His real topics though was The Baptism of the Holy Spirit, "Discerning of Spirits"; knowing good from evil. He specificly preached against the occult, and though he never mentioned the card game, I knew, I mean I knew deep down that "Magic: The gathering" was of the devil.


I went to that altar and swore it off, and asked God to fill me with the Holy Spirit, and he answered. And the preacher came and lay his hand on my forehead and prayed, and I recieved. For those who do not believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with fire and Tongues for today, well, BELIEVE IT.


So it would seem like the end of the story, but it was not.

I personally did not yet allow God to convict me of the evil that was Lord of the Rings, but I went home and took those evil cards out back and burned them. I reasoned that there was no point selling them back to the store, if they were evil, I didn't want them in anyone elses hands either.

So I detroyed them, and thank the Lord for that. But I wouldn't listen to God telling me to get rid of Tolkien too.

3 years later, when I was a senior in high school, I happened to be reading tolkien again (as is the nature of everything demonic, you can't put it down, not in your own strength anyway. You end up reading it again and again and again, and won't admit there is a problem.)

And it so happened a class mate saw me reading it, and he introduced me to the "Wheel of Time" and "Sword of Truth" series. The devil had his hook in my mouth in the form of the "innocent" Lord of the Rings "christianized devil worship" book that I refused to hear God's voice telling me to put it down. Light rejected is light withdrawn. and I fell for the next bait.

Lord of the rings was but a bait, but these others, they were terrible. I am an excellent reader, and woudl sit and read a thousand page book in about a day, sometimes two or three days per book, if there was a distraction.

It's like a stairway into a black pit, these books are, all the ones I listed. With each step, with each page, you get farther and farther from the Light that is Jesus Christ.

You can't wait to turn the next page. The devil gives you a bread crumb and you eat that, and then you eat the next and the next, because it appeals to the sin nature, that part of man that wants to be "gods knowing good and evil," that ancient lie of the devil.

Lord of the Rings was the wedge, and it opened up space for bigger and bigger wedges. Not only that, somehow, some way, the devil twisted my mind with this stuff. I can't "blame" the devil, he is what he is, I made the choice, but the devil was right there pushing. Somehow, as I did not heed the voice telling me to get rid of this stuff, I found myself committing to sins. One I will not talk about. The other was, I broke the oath I made to the Lord on june 19, 1995, and somehow got involved in that card game again.

A freshman in college, and the devil had me playing that stupid game again, because I would not listen to the voice of the Lord when he said, "Throw tolkien away. Throw the Wheel of Time away. Throw Star Wars away. Throw it away and serve the Lord."

I went to college with the strangest collection of things in my backpack:

A bible
A bunch of State approved books telling me God didn't exist.
A High Fantasy piece of crap book, depending on which book I was reading or re-reading that day.

I was hiding it. I knew I was doing evil. I knew these things were evil, but I justified it as "just a story, just a game".

But there came a time when God finally got through to me, and he did it by letting me fall one rung lower on that stair well than I ever imagined possible.

The devil will take you farther than you ever want to go, he always does. The fruit looked so good on the tree, but the end result is death. The devil can make it look so good.

One day, I found myself comitting a sin I learned from the books. Not Lord of the Rings directly, though in reality, they got it from Tolkien, it just isn't as obvious. I wont discuss what it was. It was not a "little" thing, I can assure you. No sin is really.

The devil couldn't get me to do most of the "normal" things that sinners do, because it was too easy and too simple see them for what they really were. But one day at a time, he ended up getting me to do something worse, and he used Lord of the Rings and its clone books and games to do it.

But all of those books and games I listed above for "teens and young adults", they are all based on the works of Tolkien, who based his work on pagan mythologies, ultimately inspired by the same demons one way or another. But you can discover this for yourself by doing the research. Tolkien is the inspiration behind Blizzard entertainment, for example.

But every time I tried to quit, tolkien was ultimately the wedge the devil tried to use to get back in my mind, both before and since.


So that one day in late 2001 I did that terrible thing. But when I realized what I had done, I found myself sobbing before God, lying on the floor in my bedroom crying so hard, with everything i was worth begging God to forgive me; Carpet and shirt stained with tears and snot everything just began to come out.

every devil in hell laughing at me, telling me, "God will never take you back now. Look what you did. You broke that oath to God, and then you did these other things, and I have you now. You're mine."


Didn't want to go to church with my dad, too big and proud to go with the family, so I got in my head this church that my parents had been to one time back when I was younger, and started attending there. STILL would not get rid of Lord of the Rings. STILL went around saying, "its a christian book," like all the other "good" christians.

But something in me knew, after the first few times visting it, "this just isn't right."

But it was the closest "so called" pentecostal church I knew of, at that time, an assemblies of God church. I wanted to go to a church by myself, without the parents, I was 20 or 21, thought I was "big enough" to go do my own thing.

They sang all the right songs, had beautiful music, originally even had decent preaching. But something was terribly wrong, and I knew it. Couldn't put my finger on it. Had no natural knowledge of what it was, but the Spirit of God in me, messed up as I was my own self, kept knocking and something just wasn't right.

I couldn't attend there regularly, found myself skipping more and more often, but because "good" christians are supposed to Go to church:

"Do not forsake the gathering of yourselves together as is the manner of some."

Devil loves to use that one on me. I mean, satan quotes the Word of God just as well as Christians do, he just twists it to get you to do the wrong thing.

So whenever I would quit going to church, ultimately, that verse and the devil would lead me back to that little church, but the Spirit of God would once again say, "Something just isn't right." In all this time, I'm still caught up in many of these things, and ultimately, did not entirely get free of them until just a few months ago, as of the time I write this.

I attended this church off and on all the way up to april 6 or 7 of 2003, and almost every time I went I felt like something just was not right. The devil said, "Its just you." I mean, I was like, "its just me", and the devil was happy to tell me that, because the DEVIL wanted me in church, especially that one.

to be continued....

[Dies3l]

" A little leaven leavens the whole lump"

Lord of the Rings
Lion, witch, and the wardrobe
Harry Potter
Magic the Gathering
Dungeons and Dragons (heavily draws on LotR)
Wheel of Time
Sword of Truth (anything but)
Star Wars
Warcraft
Starcraft
Diablo
and many other video games
and many, many other similar works.

All occult, all of the devil,all anti-biblical, whatever their authors may have said or intended when writing or making them.


Don't forget the book of 1 Samuel. Also full of occult, evil, witchcrafty sorts of things, especially Chapter 28. I say it should removed from our Bibles and burned along with the evil works of C.S. Lewis and the like.

[Grumpy Hillbilly]

I'm a firm believer that Star Wars is an allegory, but not a Christian story. I believe that the last three they made is what is going on right now. But then again maybe I'm a couple corn dogs shy of a picnic too?

[DarkCoffeeJazz]

Wade............
...................
.......What is your point?
Walls of text do not an argument make.
If you have a point... then keep it simple!
*plays air guitar to accompanying solo on radio*
Present an argument that is short, sweet, and to the point!

All I see is an uninformed, incoherent rant.

[Wade Smith]

Now I split this because i don't know how long threads can be allowed to be.

Now I realize, you are probably asking, "What does all this have to do with tolkien and those other books?"

Well, I assure you, it is the exact same evil spirit as that which is behind the fallen churches that dot our nation's map today. The spirit of anti-christ right in the midst of "church".


So like I said, the devil wanted me in that church. He saw I was seeking God, and he led me to a church full of devils in disquise, angels of light.

The devil goes to church people. Religion is one of his favorite weapons.

I didn't know it, my parents even tried to tell me a couple times, "get the heck out of there, something's wrong with them."

But my mom didn't even attend church at the time, so it was easy for to say, "Hey, you want to tell me what church to go to, and you don't even attend one." But she was right, and in hind sight, the main reason she doesn't attend "church" any more is because most of them aren't really churches any more. The candlestick has been removed.

Didn't want to hear it. I said, "They quote the Bible. Its a different version (one many of you readers probably use). They sing all the same songs we sing. They even have most of the same doctrine. What's the big deal?"


But I'd go and sit in the services, Bible in hand, highlighter or pen in hand, and deep down still knew something was wrong. The flesh couldn't understand it, but the Spirit of God knew. Like so many others, among ther things, they considered Tolkien's Lord of the Rings to be a "good chritian book", though that was only mentioned once, and I was actually the one that mentioned it, because I was STILL holding on to the darn thing like an idiot.

But I began to pray for them.

Think of that. I went to church trying to get right with God, and here I am praying for them, knowing something was more wrong with them than with me, and as it turned out, worse than anything I even imagined.

I'm laying on the floor in the bedroom, instead of praying for myself, praying for the CHURCH that is supposed to teach me how to live for God. Praying some of those days for hours on end, hours. Not to puff myself up, but because the Spirit of God had hold of me now and I knew that something was terrible about the place.


At one point, the hypocrites even let me preach there! And I didn't know enough then to preach directly to the issue, to preach directly to the sin and call it sin,and moreover, I still wasn't sure what was wrong, just knew "something" is terribly wrong here.

Even after this, I still couldn't quite get it. My parents told me, "something's wrong, get away," and I knew something was wrong, but kept saying, "Maybe its just me. Maybe its just my parents. what do they know, they don't even go to church any more." Which wasn't entirely true, my dad actually went to church almost every sunday, it just wasn't in a sanctuary, but was at a truck stop, really street preaching. He knew what he was talking about.

I turned on the radio and heard a certain preacher singing, and I knew.

And I remember Matthew 5, and I remember June 19, 1995.

And God began to move.

I sat there knowing that the people in that little church were messed up, but I just didn't realize how bad.

I didn't know what to say to them. I went to Family Worship Center on Sunday night and Wednesday night, and I knew then that my parents were right about that little church and that gut feeling I kept ignoring was the Spirit of God telling me it was all wrong.

I layed on my face before the Lord hours on end, "Lord God what do I do? How can I help? What's the matter here? What do I say? Have mercy on those people God. Something's wrong with them," and so on, hour after hour for almost an entire week.

Woke up sunday morning, drove to that little church. Parked in the gravel parking lot, and said, "Lord Jesus I don't know what to do here, but You're God. Send somebody that knows you better than me, because I don't know what to do."

I walked inside, everything seemed "normal", talked to some people, whatever the case. Then about 5 minutes or so later, it happened. I was 22 at the time.

My dad walks through the front door, and the devil tried one last time to destroy him and me.

I asked, "what are you doing here?" Somehow not even remembering the prayer I had just said a few minutes earlier.

It didn't take long before all hell broke loose. The devil could not STAND that my dad was on his territory.

Dad walks right up to one of the men in the church, and begins to give his testimony of when God delivered him from alcohol, he heard the voice of God audibly tell him, "Throw that bottle away and you'll never touch it again."

He obeyed. But a few weeks later, coming home from work, the devil had tried to get him. It was a hot summer day, and he was driving on a long drive frrom work with the window rolled down, and he was mostly talking to himself. But he said something like, "Lord, I sure wish I had something to drink."

Immediately, someone driving down on the other lane threw a cold beer through the window and it landed right in his lap. He threw it back out the window.

"The devil can make it look so good," my dad warned, as he finished relating this story.

As soon as he had said this, and I mean immediately, the church "leaders" began to accuse us. "You're sowing division in our church."

We didn't do anything! Dad gave a testimony of when the Lord delivered him from the sin of alcohol, and the devil got ticked off and went into them!

They surrounded us, rebuking us in the name of Jesus and accusing US of serving the devil, much like the Pharisees did Jesus in the Bible.

They chased us out into the parking lot, getting in our faces to the point of almost a brawl, much like some internet forums that ban and censor me now.

they began rebuking me "in the name of Jesus" of all things, and "taking authority over me and telling me to leave in the name of Jesus."

I don't know how I know this, but it was God speaking through me, and
I opened my mouth and said, "These doors will be closed in just a few months."

The certain false brother said to me, "You are a false prophet."

Btu the devil called Jesus a devil worshipper, through the pharisees. Imagine that.

I said, "You don't know Jesus. You don't know what you're worshipping."


And we left.

A little over a year passed and I prayed for those people and prayed and prayed that God would save their souls, knowing they were as lost as they come.

Then one day, the police raided them. LIght rejected is light withdrawn.
And if they ever had a candlestick, God had taken it away long ago, when he took me away.

They had become a full blown cult. Worshipping the devil. Singing amazing grace on sunday, and worshipping the devil in the back rooms, raping kids and animals, ritual animal sacrifices to the devil, blackmailing one another, and God only knows what else. Many of the adults from there are now serving multiple life sentences in prison.

Had I not been so desensitized due to refusing to quit the garbage this thread was originally about, I would have known.


I don't remember exactly whent he Lord of the Rings movie came out, but like the idiot I was, I went to go see it, but I stopped at the second movie. On the second move, I remember going into the theatre, and as the opening scene began to play, I felt something that was familliar: An evil spirit. Chills came over me like someone had thrown a bucket of ice water in my face and down my arms and back and it pierced to the soul. It was just like the thing I had felt at that church. The terrible knowledge that "this is just not right, no matter how "innocent" it looks."


I began to put those things away, though it was a cycle that I struggled with for a while, but I have no intention of going back.



I know some of you aren't going to like it, but Tolkien was full of the devil, along with all the other authors who wrote the books or made the games I listed above, or anything like them. I know you think C. S. Lewis was writing a "christian" allegory, but it will lead people to hell, one step at a time, one day at a time.



Not everything that claims to be "christian" is of God.
"Not everyone who says unto me "lord, lord" will enter in..."
What you and I "consider" good is of the devil.

The Lord of the Rings and the Chronicles of Narnia, and all of those similar books and card games and video games, including pokemon and harry potter, are of the Devil.

They are a wedge designed to blind your eyes and stop your ears and destroy whatever discernment you ever had.

Many of you reading this right now are attending churches that aren't much better than this one I'm talkin about, and you don't know it.

Some of you know it, and don't know what to do about it. GET OUT. Call the police.


Some of you wont see the connection, but its the same spirit. It's the spirit of anti-christ. whether you call it "anti-christos" or "Psuedochristos", its a false spirit. There is nothing good in it. It will blind your eyes.



I've said what the Lord has put on my heart and mind for today. I've "delivered my soul" according to Ezekiel 3.

I pray that some of you reading this will consider what I say, and read God's word on the subject. Stay away from those books and games, and get your kids off them ASAP.

I pray in Jesus' name that the Lord will give you discernment and the Holy Spirit conviction to know that they are of the devil and destroying people's lives by spiritual blindness and deafness.

The works of Tolkien and these others is the same sprit as that of the fallen church. It is the devil in disquise.

But God has called you out of darkness, into his marvelous light.

[Wade Smith]

Don't forget the book of 1 Samuel. Also full of occult, evil, witchcrafty sorts of things, especially Chapter 28. I say it should removed from our Bibles and burned along with the evil works of C.S. Lewis and the like.

Its mentioned in the Bible for the purpose of telling you DON'T DO IT AND GET AWAY FROM IT.

thats a huge difference from these books and games that glorify this stuff.

God killed Saul because he went to a psychic.

Took the Holy Spirit from him, and let an evil spirit possess him.


Discernment.

[Wade Smith]

Wade............
...................
.......What is your point?
Walls of text do not an argument make.
If you have a point... then keep it simple!
*plays air guitar to accompanying solo on radio*
Present an argument that is short, sweet, and to the point!

All I see is an uninformed, incoherent rant.

you don't beileve something as simple as "thou shalt not", which was clearly evidence in the alcohol thread, but it does not surprise me that you would be one who opposes me immediately on this thread.

Uninformed. Yeah. Lying devil. Good try.

[Wade Smith]

Wade............
...................
.......What is your point?
Walls of text do not an argument make.
If you have a point... then keep it simple!
*plays air guitar to accompanying solo on radio*
Present an argument that is short, sweet, and to the point!

All I see is an uninformed, incoherent rant.

ILL TAKE AS LONG AS I WANT TO IN ORDER TO SAY WHAT I WANT.


Maybe you would say the same to Isaiah or moses huh?

"Meh, shut up old man. Get to the point..."

====

The problem with you is you don't realize the devil is doing it to you and other people like you.

Just raping you for everything your worth right now, and you call me hateful for pointing it out in the other thread.

Now you just make fun of the length of the post or whatever. Any excuse to sin or to undermine the message.

I know. Been there and done that. Found out it leads to death.

[kellyc]

wade, this is just my own opinion but i think if you have a spiritual problem with any stories or whatever, then you should just avoid them. it seems like you are equating your own issues with obsessively playing an occult card game etc with the reading of things that most people recognize as fantasy. cs lewis or tolkien would be very sad to think that any writing of theirs caused you to go astray, really i think you might be overthinking it.

[DarkCoffeeJazz]

you don't beileve something as simple as "thou shalt not", which was clearly evidence in the alcohol thread, but it does not surprise me that you would be one who opposes me immediately on this thread.

Uninformed. Yeah. Lying devil. Good try.

Is it so much to ask for a summary of whatever it is you're talking about?
When I say uninformed, i mean it looks like a lot of opinions and hearsay, really.
And you still haven't done what I requested.
*life bar depletes*
I'll allow you to try again.
Summarize it so that is is short, sweet, and to the point, please.
THEN we'll see what my opinions are and are not, instead of just you assuming things about me, ja?

[Dies3l]

God killed Saul because he went to a psychic.



Um . . . really? Where exactly does it say that?

And, on a similar note: How exactly do the Chronicles of Narnia glorify witchcraft? It strikes me, for example, that the White Witch is treated by C.S. Lewis as much more the evil character than the Witch of Endor in 1 Samuel.

[DarkCoffeeJazz]

ILL TAKE AS LONG AS I WANT TO IN ORDER TO SAY WHAT I WANT.

...this is why I hang out with atheists. As far as debate goes. At least they can keep a cool, rational head on them.

Maybe you would say the same to Isaiah or moses huh?

"Meh, shut up old man. Get to the point..."

LMAO. Nope. I can actually follow what it is they are saying, unfortunately for you.
I made it actually halfway through the OT as far as reading it goes. But of course being not even a teenager then, i lost interest/got caught up in other things.
Hrm... maybe I should try reading it all again.... it would be interesting, at least.

====

The problem with you is you don't realize the devil is doing it to you and other people like you.

You saying "Holier than thou" comes to mind when i read things like this.

Just raping you for everything your worth right now, and you call me hateful for pointing it out in the other thread.

I call you hateful because you say hateful things. Those who instruct/correct out of love don't say things like this.
THEREFORE!
I rebuke your hate!
After all, isn't that what you said to do? :P

Now you just make fun of the length of the post or whatever. Any excuse to sin or to undermine the message.

OR... I just asked you to make a short summary for those of us who don't worship the ground you walk on. Or for any other man, for that matter.
If I didn't think it was all just a bunch of incoherent ramblings about "evil evil evil this this this, I'm so right I couldn't possibly be wrong", I might try to read it.

I know. Been there and done that. Found out it leads to death.
[/quote]
You are still "there", unfortunately.
You are wise in your own eyes, and therefore, you cannot remove the speck from my eye due to the plank in your own.
I almost feel sorry for you.

[DarkCoffeeJazz]

Um . . . really? Where exactly does it say that?

It doesn't.
Wade is apparently famous for twisting scripture.
Want to see a lot of bile and examples of this?
Go read the topic about "drinking is a sin" located here in non-denominational.

[kellyc]

1 Chronicles 10:13-15 (New International Version)




13 Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance, 14 and did not inquire of the LORD. So the LORD put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse.

[DarkCoffeeJazz]

1 Chronicles 10:13-15 (New International Version)




13 Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance, 14 and did not inquire of the LORD. So the LORD put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse.

That's a lot different than saying "He died because he saw a medium". that was only one mentioned instance, but not the root cause of his death.
He died, because he, as it says, "Was unfaithful to the LORD".

[kellyc]

yes exactly, that was my point. he died in battle (i think?), he wasn't zapped on the spot.

[Dies3l]

1 Chronicles 10:13-15 (New International Version)




13 Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance, 14 and did not inquire of the LORD. So the LORD put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse.

Point taken, but . . . .

The passage does not say that he was killed for consulting a medium, but rather because he was unfaithful to the LORD and that he did not seek the LORD (i.e., he "did not inquire of the LORD).

Also, this passage is not in the book of 1 Samuel, so this serves to strengthen my original point, which is that by standards of the O.P., 1 Samuel belongs in the same list of forbidden books as The Chronicles of Narnia, the workds of JRR Tolkien, etc.... The fact that 1 Chronicles provides a different explanation does not exonerate the book of 1 Samuel any more than Lewis' words in Mere Christianity would mitigate any damage done in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. Personally, I have no problem with any of these books, but if we are going to claim that they are evil, then let's hold biblical works the exact same standard. And, by the standard apparently proposed by the OP, 1 Samuel is in the same camp with the other books listed.

I understand Wade's right, perhaps even moral obligation, to refrain from books and such that cause him to obsess over ungodly things. Heck, I even find myself having to refrain from these forums from time to time for the same reason. But, just because some of us have trouble with such things does not make them inherently evil and does not give us the right to preach to others about how evil they are. I encourage Wade to refrain, but I would discourage him from assuming that because they caused him to stumble that they are inherently bad or evil.

[kellyc]

quote
I understand Wade's right, perhaps even moral obligation, to refrain from books and such that cause him to obsess over ungodly things. Heck, I even find myself having to refrain from these forums from time to time for the same reason. But, just because some of us have trouble with such things does not make them inherently evil and does not give us the right to preach to others about how evil they are. I encourage Wade to refrain, but I would discourage him from assuming that because they caused him to stumble that they are inherently bad or evil.

excellent point!

[DarkCoffeeJazz]

yes exactly, that was my point. he died in battle (i think?), he wasn't zapped on the spot.

If I remember correctly, he "fell on his own sword".
He died by his own hand.

[DarkCoffeeJazz]

Point taken, but . . . .

The passage does not say that he was killed for consulting a medium, but rather because he was unfaithful to the LORD and that he did not seek the LORD (i.e., he "did not inquire of the LORD).

Also, this passage is not in the book of 1 Samuel, so this serves to strengthen my original point, which is that by standards of the O.P., 1 Samuel belongs in the same list of forbidden books as The Chronicles of Narnia, the workds of JRR Tolkien, etc.... The fact that 1 Chronicles provides a different explanation does not exonerate the book of 1 Samuel any more than Lewis' words in Mere Christianity would mitigate any damage done in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. Personally, I have no problem with any of these books, but if we are going to claim that they are evil, then let's hold biblical works the exact same standard. And, by the standard apparently proposed by the OP, 1 Samuel is in the same camp with the other books listed.

I understand Wade's right, perhaps even moral obligation, to refrain from books and such that cause him to obsess over ungodly things. Heck, I even find myself having to refrain from these forums from time to time for the same reason. But, just because some of us have trouble with such things does not make them inherently evil and does not give us the right to preach to others about how evil they are. I encourage Wade to refrain, but I would discourage him from assuming that because they caused him to stumble that they are inherently bad or evil.

Though I believe 1 Samuel is only stating the facts (don't shoot the messenger), I agree with most of what you are saying.
Though i doubt he's going to see it the same way.

[Wade Smith]

Um . . . really? Where exactly does it say that?

here:

1 Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

1 Chronicles 10:13
So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;



And, on a similar note: How exactly do the Chronicles of Narnia glorify witchcraft? It strikes me, for example, that the White Witch is treated by C.S. Lewis as much more the evil character than the Witch of Endor in 1 Samuel.

Everything about Narnia is witchcraft and fables. The whole thing.

I know C.S. Lewis THOUGHT he was doing something "good", but it isn't.

Right from the whole magic portal to another universe thing, its all occult to begin with.

[DarkCoffeeJazz]

here:

1 Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

1 Chronicles 10:13
So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
Ha..... haha.....
You expect us to believe that?
First off... there's no connection between the two. NOT TO MENTION, it says "and also" as in, "As well as". As in it's not the source, but is just one of his many transgressions.
It is not the transgression itself.
Even with this version, it still holds that the "counsel of one that had a familiar spirit" was not the source.
But first, I guess, you have to prove a connection between both verses and your bolded words.
As it stands, you have yet to establish it.


Everything about Narnia is witchcraft and fables. The whole thing.

I know C.S. Lewis THOUGHT he was doing something "good", but it isn't.

Right from the whole magic portal to another universe thing, its all occult to begin with.
Oi.
*facepalm*
I'm not even going there with you. If you can turn "wine" into "bile" (Hint about how that debate went ;) ) then I'd hate to see what you do with a book such as this.

And I have read the entire "Sword of Truth" series, by the way.
Does that make me evil? No.
(though to be fair I believe we're all born with sin.)

[pgp_protector]

here:

1 Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

1 Chronicles 10:13
So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;



Everything about Narnia is witchcraft and fables. The whole thing.

I know C.S. Lewis THOUGHT he was doing something "good", but it isn't.

Right from the whole magic portal to another universe thing, its all occult to begin with.

So Stories that are not true are bad ?

[Wade Smith]

...this is why I hang out with atheists. As far as debate goes. At least they can keep a cool, rational head on them.

LMAO. Nope. I can actually follow what it is they are saying, unfortunately for you.
I made it actually halfway through the OT as far as reading it goes. But of course being not even a teenager then, i lost interest/got caught up in other things.
Hrm... maybe I should try reading it all again.... it would be interesting, at least.

Yeah. You should.

"Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God."

You're in sin and rebellion if you refuse to read the whole Bible.



You saying "Holier than thou" comes to mind when i read things like this.

I call you hateful because you say hateful things. Those who instruct/correct out of love don't say things like this.

They do when the guy is full of the devil.

God is love.
Jesus is God.

Jesus turned and rebuked the devil when Simon Peter stood against him.

Matthew 16:23
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.




THEREFORE!
I rebuke your hate!
After all, isn't that what you said to do? :P

Hey. Doesn't matter to me. That's what THE DEVIL CULT SAID. wow.



OR... I just asked you to make a short summary for those of us who don't worship the ground you walk on. Or for any other man, for that matter.
If I didn't think it was all just a bunch of incoherent ramblings about "evil evil evil this this this, I'm so right I couldn't possibly be wrong", I might try to read it.


You are still "there", unfortunately.
You are wise in your own eyes, and therefore, you cannot remove the speck from my eye due to the plank in your own.
I almost feel sorry for you.


I DO feel sorry for you. Because you are a liar and full of the devil and wont admit it.

You even admit you've never even read the Old Testament, and you're going to sit here and try to tell ME about the Bible and "love"?

You don't know God.

Goodness. I've read the Bible dozens of times, some parts hundreds.


Let me show you something you don't know.

1 Kings 22:18And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would prophesy no good concerning me, but evil?

19And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
20And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. 23Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

How did Micaiah KNOW that he was right and the 400 false prophets were demon possessed?

Because HE KNEW GOD.


I'm telling you. You are deceived.

You think I'm "hateful", but you are deceived.

[DarkCoffeeJazz]

So Stories that are not true are bad ?

Especially books that are SAID to be fiction, aka not the truth.
If it were claiming it were truth, then that would be a different "story".
Haha, i love puns.

[Wade Smith]

So Stories that are not true are bad ?
1 Timothy 4:7
But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

[Wade Smith]

Ha..... haha.....
You expect us to believe that?
First off... there's no connection between the two. NOT TO MENTION, it says "and also" as in, "As well as". As in it's not the source, but is just one of his many transgressions.


You are absolutely ridiculous. Go ask a secular english professor what that says.

Quit lying to yourself.


If I say, "Go to the store and buy a soda, and also a box of crackers."

Am I telling a person to buy a soda? or both a soda and crackers?

Both soda and crackers of course.

[DarkCoffeeJazz]

Yeah. You should.

"Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God."

You're in sin and rebellion if you refuse to read the whole Bible.

Verse please. As in, prove it.
:D


They do when the guy is full of the devil.

God is love.
Jesus is God.

Jesus turned and rebuked the devil when Simon Peter stood against him.

Matthew 16:23
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

What's funny... is that he isn't saying it out of hate.
But you are saying everything out of hate.
You are not God.
You are not Jesus.
You are a flawed human being like everyone else.
Who are you to judge your fellow man? You do not know my heart, yet you say you do.
You say many lies about me, based on a preconceived notion of me in your mind.
You are closed to any sort of post of mine that discredits this notion of yours.
I could go on and on.
But the atheists, at this point, are showing more love than you are.
If I cannot see "love" then you should consider if you are doing something wrong.


Hey. Doesn't matter to me. That's what THE DEVIL CULT SAID. wow.
So by your logic.
You said this.
The Devil Cult said this, wow.
SO you must be in this devil cult of which you speak. According to your logic.
When i said that, I was referring to your own words, you see.




I DO feel sorry for you. Because you are a liar and full of the devil and wont admit it.
Maybe because I'm not lying. Maybe because i'm not full of the devil. Remove that plank before you try to remove the speck from my eye, please.

You even admit you've never even read the Old Testament, and you're going to sit here and try to tell ME about the Bible and "love"?
God does not say "Thou shalt read the OT in all it's entirety, or else you have committed a grave sin.
I use logic and reason. Something you seem to lack, or are unwilling to use.
I also use common sense.

You don't know God.
Where's your evidence?
You cannot know my heart. Only God does.
For you to make such a judgment call without even knowing the deepest parts of my heart is to be a hypocrite.
You wanted evidence of your hypocrisy earlier.
There it is.

Goodness. I've read the Bible dozens of times, some parts hundreds.
Yet you still don't follow it. Imagine that.

Let me show you something you don't know.

1 Kings 22:18And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would prophesy no good concerning me, but evil?

19And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
20And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. 23Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

How did Micaiah KNOW that he was right and the 400 false prophets were demon possessed?

Because HE KNEW GOD.
AND your point was, what, exactly?

I'm telling you. You are deceived.
Oh, so you're Micaiah then? (i'm using your own spelling btw).

You think I'm "hateful", but you are deceived.As a song i once wrote says....
"Your actions speak louder than words!"

Also....tell me what you think of this stanza, and what you think it means. then we will see if you know me.

"A tempest for today please,
A need for blood to flow.
Black and wet, to mar the white,
The soul and mind in hand."

I can imagine what you're going to say, and I can imagine it'll be wrong.
But go ahead. Since you know me so well.
[/sarcasm]

[pgp_protector]

1 Timothy 4:7
But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

Is that a Yes Or No ?

Matthew 5:37 Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

[Wade Smith]

Verse please. As in, prove it.
:D


Ok devil.

and that's what you are listening to, by the way, a devil.


But first of all, anyone who claims to love God ought to read the Bible.

Matthew 22:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Here's a few passages:

Verse 15 doesn't apply to YOU though, since you admit you haven't read all the scriptures.

2 timothy 3:15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.


Matthew 5:17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


And of course, there's this little fact that most of Jesus' teaching, other than the parables, involved direct quotes from the Old Testament.

What? Call yourself a Christian, but You never read the Bible? You don't know this? Huh?

Matthew 21:42
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

John 2:22
When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.


The disciples believed the Scriptures...at the time, there was no "New Testament". They believed the OLD TESTAMENT.

Acts 17:2
And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Again, there was no "New Testament" books yet, Paul used the Old Testament to teach Jesus Christ Crucified.

Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.


Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

When Jesus or Paul debated about doctrine or whatever, they did exactly what I'm doing with you right now, but I've always done this, and you still won't believe or listen, and just ignore me or find some excuse to mock me, like you did in this thread with the length of the posts.

Romans 10:11
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.


You called me "uninformed", but no way.

You yourself admit you've never even read the Bible one time through, YOU are the one who is uninformed and a liar. Not me.


That's just like the devil.

I mean, I called it right from the start, really going back to the other thread.

You don't know what you're talking about.




What's funny... is that he isn't saying it out of hate.


Neither am I. I'm saying it because its true, and because I love you and everyone else reading this enough to tell you and them.

[DarkCoffeeJazz]

You are absolutely ridiculous. Go ask a secular english professor what that says.

Quit lying to yourself.


If I say, "Go to the store and buy a soda, and also a box of crackers."

Am I telling a person to buy a soda? or both a soda and crackers?

Both soda and crackers of course.

AHEM!
Prove the connection. Or else you have no case.
And I am quite literate enough to know you're twisting the truth, thanks.
Though i want to be a professor one day.
English... is my best subject, unfortunately for you.
*smile, butterflies*

[Wade Smith]

Is that a Yes Or No ?

Matthew 5:37 Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

Wow. Just wow.


the answer is YES.

A lie is a lie, no matter what.

And Jesus was referring to people having to take an oath before God to affirm what they were saying, not "giving explainations".

BAck up and read the whole passage.


Matthew 5:33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

[pgp_protector]

Wow. Just wow.


the answer is YES.

A lie is a lie, no matter what.

And Jesus was referring to people having to take an oath before God to affirm what they were saying, not "giving explainations".

BAck up and read the whole passage.


Matthew 5:33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

So When Jesus told a Story about a farmer selling all he had Was he telling the truth, or a story ?

[Wade Smith]

So When Jesus told a Story about a farmer selling all he had Was he telling the truth, or a story ?


Let me ask you this.


Jesus told a parable about the rich man and lazarus, both died, one went to hades, the other went to "abrahams bossom". The rich man asked God to send lazarus back from the dead to warn his family not to come here. The Lord rebuked him (through abraham) and said, "If they didn't hear the prophets they wont believe if a man is raised from the dead."

A few weeks later, Jesus raised a man named Lazarus from the dead.

Do you think it is a coincidence that Jesus told the parable ahead of time so the pharisees could see it happen right before their eyes?

[Dies3l]

So When Jesus told a Story about a farmer selling all he had Was he telling the truth, or a story ?

Just because Jesus told stories doesn't mean that telling stories is okay! Jesus also made and drank wine; are you going to tell me know that making and drinking wine is okay? Of course not -- that would be ridiculous. Just because Jesus is recorded as having done something doesn't mean it is not sinful.

[DarkCoffeeJazz]

Ok devil.

and that's what you are listening to, by the way, a devil.
Ahem. Let's fix that, shall we?

"and that's what you are reading, by the way, the words of a devil".
FIX'D. XD

Seriously, though. "Judge not, lest ye be judged".
You're doing that an awful lot.

But first of all, anyone who claims to love God ought to read the Bible.

*SIGH*
I do. I do. I do.
There, I said it three times in case you missed it the first 10000 times I said it.



And of course, there's this little fact that most of Jesus' teaching, other than the parables, involved direct quotes from the Old Testament.

What? Call yourself a Christian, but You never read the Bible? You don't know this? Huh?
What on earth are you saying? I've said countless times that I've read the bible.
That I still read the bible.
Yet you refuse to listen.

The disciples believed the Scriptures...at the time, there was no "New Testament". They believed the OLD TESTAMENT.

....So do I. You fail to realize this, don't you? And also....
What's your point?
You're arguing with someone 7 years younger than you, yet I seem to be the one making the valid points here.

Again, there was no "New Testament" books yet, Paul used the Old Testament to teach Jesus Christ Crucified.

Paul is my hero, actually. Or at least, I like him a lot. He's one of my favorite authors of the bible.
And what's your point again? Why all this talk of OT and NT?

When Jesus or Paul debated about doctrine or whatever, they did exactly what I'm doing with you right now,
No they didn't. You are blind to your own words.
but I've always done this, and you still won't believe or listen, and just ignore me or find some excuse to mock me, like you did in this thread with the length of the posts.
I only use your own words against you. The sword I use is one of your own forging, so to speak.

You called me "uninformed", but no way.

Prove it. Without spamming a wall of text.
So far, you've been proving me correct.

You yourself admit you've never even read the Bible one time through, YOU are the one who is uninformed and a liar. Not me.

Ummmmmmmm "never read the Bible all the way through" actually. As in, not from front to back, word for word. Is this why you think i haven't read the bible at all?
Because, you've taken my own words out of context.

That's just like the devil.

.....
*IRONY*
Maybe I should go ask Insho for that IRONY picture....
(A friend of mine on another forum.)

I mean, I called it right from the start, really going back to the other thread.

You spewed your own hatred and malice, yes. But you did not even touch upon what is in my heart.
What is your political view, by the way? It'll tell me more about yourself. And maybe confirm a few things in my mind.

You don't know what you're talking about.

*IRONY*
................
You've just given me my new GA topic. thank you.




Neither am I. I'm saying it because its true, and because I love you and everyone else reading this enough to tell you and them.

You don't love me. Your words are evidence enough of that.
I think what you really want is for me to go "Yes, master, I agree with every word you say, because you are more right than God".
Because you've only attacked my beliefs, saying I'm of the devil. Well, so are you.
But I try my hardest to follow God. I know the truth. I know God, though I do not claim to know the mind of God.
You claim to know me, but you know nothing about me.
You give Christians a bad name.
You are one of the reasons atheists look at us and go "oh another one of those nuts, huh".
You have no love. You have no mercy. You have no compassion.
You.... have no strength because of that.
You are wise in your own ways, in the ways of the world.
But you are not wise in the ways of God, methinks.
But arguing with you is pointless. You are incapable of reason, or logic, or even of realizing your own mistakes.
You must always be right, no matter what.
You are a perfectionist of your own desires; you abuse me with your words, sling the first stone at me (pun intended) and call yourself perfect by doing so.
If there is any hope for you, I hope God makes it clear to you quickly. Because no human on earth can.

[Dies3l]

Wow. Just wow.


the answer is YES.

A lie is a lie, no matter what.


So, really, Wade, your objection is to all works of fiction, not just those that have magical or fantasy type themes in them. Would that be a fair statement? If so, wouldn't it have been better to have titled this thread "Literary Works of Fiction and Other Demons in Disguise"?

[DarkCoffeeJazz]

And I rightly say you're just lying to yourself.

I already proved it, you just wont believe it.


"Read this post and also the one before it."

AHEM! Prove the connection, or else you have no case.
Maybe there's a reason i'm saying this.. hrm....[/sarcasm]

Of course you know what that means, it means to read both posts.

When neither one proves a thing? It's pointless.

Quit lying to yourself and other readers.

*IRONY*
I am not lying, unfortunately.
That is not saying I am incapable of lying, of course. But in this instance.
I. Am. Not. Lying.

The part after "And also" is a prepositional phrase, and cannot stand alone, but refers back to "died

"And also" links two prepostional phrases, which are the TWO reasons Saul died.

But that contradicts the bible.
Yes, they are two reasons. But the second reason is part of the first reason. It's a part of the whole, just like a word is part of a sentence.

for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not,

Oi.
*facepalm*

for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
You still have to prove the connection between those two verses. Or you have no case.

I now know how some atheists feel about us Christians. I now see where they're misconceptions rise up from.
I feel their pain.

[pgp_protector]

Let me ask you this.
Ask away :)


Jesus told a parable about the rich man and lazarus, both died, one went to hades, the other went to "abrahams bossom". The rich man asked God to send lazarus back from the dead to warn his family not to come here. The Lord rebuked him (through abraham) and said, "If they didn't hear the prophets they wont believe if a man is raised from the dead."
Yes I agree Jesus told fantasy stories that never happened (but according to some that was a "lie", but Jesus can't lie so there conclusions must be in error)


A few weeks later, Jesus raised a man named Lazarus from the dead.

Do you think it is a coincidence that Jesus told the parable ahead of time so the pharisees could see it happen right before their eyes?

Maybe it happened so you could learn that not all stories are wrong & evil.


But to think that something God did was a coincidence would be to ask do you think God is not in control.
Me I don't think anything God does is a coincidence.

[kellyc]

i leave for like, a minute, and yall go completely insane. :|

[DarkCoffeeJazz]

i leave for like, a minute, and yall go completely insane. :|

I am merely defending myself, Frauelin.
He is wise only in his own eyes. Nothing else.
Do not let him trouble you.
*smiles like a rockstar*
.....that verse...........
............kelly, if you're good with the bible...
Do you know that verse that mentions humility? Something about "abasing oneself"...
It's perfect for both me and Wade, methinks.

[Grumpy Hillbilly]

Wow!! This is insane! No one wearing boxing gloves here, just beating the living daylights out of one another with words!

Thinking about the "if a story isn't true is it evil" line of thought here, the prophet of God, Nathan (if I remember right) came before king David under false pretenses and said that a rich man had taken a poor mans sheep( a flat out lie if we follow this line of reasoning), does that leave Nathan, the prophet in the hot smoking section then?

[DarkCoffeeJazz]

Wow!! This is insane! No one wearing boxing gloves here, just beating the living daylights out of one another with words!

Thinking about the "if a story isn't true is it evil" line of thought here, the prophet of God, Nathan (if I remember right) came before king David under false pretenses and said that a rich man had taken a poor mans sheep( a flat out lie if we follow this line of reasoning), does that leave Nathan, the prophet in the hot smoking section then?

He used it to prove a point to David of his own sin he had committed.
A summary of what he had done, practically.

[Grumpy Hillbilly]

He used it to prove a point to David of his own sin he had committed.
A summary of what he had done, practically.


Uh huh, my point, it still wasn't true, it was a WOE MAN, not a sheep. Sheep are much quieter and easier to take care of, well, that's another topic!

[pgp_protector]

Wow!! This is insane! No one wearing boxing gloves here, just beating the living daylights out of one another with words!

Thinking about the "if a story isn't true is it evil" line of thought here, the prophet of God, Nathan (if I remember right) came before king David under false pretenses and said that a rich man had taken a poor mans sheep( a flat out lie if we follow this line of reasoning), does that leave Nathan, the prophet in the hot smoking section then?

According to the OP... I'd guess yes.

*pgp_protector "So Stories that are not true are bad ?"

* Wade Smith "1 Timothy 4:7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness."

*pgp_protector "Is that a Yes Or No ?"

* Wade Smith "... the answer is YES. A lie is a lie, no matter what."

[DarkCoffeeJazz]

Methinks there's a contradiction in a certain someone's logic, then.
Herr Smith, how do you explain this away?
Other than "ok devil" that is?
OWAIT.... nvm. I thought for a moment I was talking with someone who uses logic and common sense.

[Brother Jason]

Seems like someone thinks highly of their opinion and regards no one else's doesn't it?

[kellyc]

coffee i am not sure, there are a lot of them. can you remember any other context? maybe this one will help.

Romans 12:3


For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

[kellyc]

"Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that
He may lift you up in due time. Cast all your cares upon Him,
because He cares for you.'" (1 Peter 5:6,7 NIV)

maybe this one?

[DarkCoffeeJazz]

Seems like someone thinks highly of their opinion and regards no one else's doesn't it?

I at least try to understand where teh other person is coming from. And sometimes my view about something is changed, or we end up on agreeing on something. Even if it's small.
No such luck here.

[DarkCoffeeJazz]

coffee i am not sure, there are a lot of them. can you remember any other context? maybe this one will help.

Romans 12:3


For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

It was comparing two types of people... so...
MAYBE proverbs?
"He who abases himself will be exalted" is a line that sticks out in my mind.

though that verse is good too.

[Redheadedstepchild]

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