Selling CDs, Tapes and DVDs at church [Archive]

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Bryan Cotton

25th September 2008, 03:21 PM

RND

25th September 2008, 03:49 PM

kat69

25th September 2008, 04:03 PM

Why do churches sale CDs, Tapes and DVDs of previous and the current day message? does this go against the bible.

Mt 21:12And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,Mt 21:13And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

I think alot of times they do that to be sure that members who for whatever reason can't make it to service don't miss out on the message. Plus some people like to get the CDS, DVDs and Tapes to give to friends and family who they think could really benefit from that message. I think if the motive is pure it's not an issue. Now if its strictly for profit than that's a different story.

Bryan Cotton

26th September 2008, 12:40 AM

Wade Smith

26th September 2008, 07:58 AM

I'm sure on some level these churches are trying to further spread the word of God. I'm sure on some level they'd like you to hear the message over and over because it's not like the message is no good after the pastor/preacher/minister brings the word.

But the bottom line is anytime I've seen selling of tapes, CDs or DVDs the cost was definitly for a profit. It doesn't cost $5-$10 to press record on a CD record, then press stop then slap a labal on it and duplicate it. I know. I could do this at cost for $1.50-$2.50 at the level that these churches are producing these CDs.

If Jesus drove people out of the temple that were selling goods in the temple instread of worshipping, wouldn't he do the same to modern day churches who sell goods.

And I can't recal anyone selling the good news of the gospel.

Just my take on it.

Well, I agree.

Many of these churches sell the gospel Not one time in the Bible do you see a prophet or apostle "sell" the gospel to someone. You don't see them sell scrolls or tablets to someone.

Most of these items are marked up by 100%-400% above cost, or more.

Bible commentaries that cost about $7 each to make in bulk, and they are sold for $40.

DVDS with 1-3 sermons on it, and they are sold for $30, and so on.

These pastors may be able to quote scripture better than me, but they sure don't act like it.

Like I said in another thread, "Freely ye recieved, freely give."

There was a time when a pastor would allow a congregation member to bring their own recording devices to a service, and record and make free copies of their own.

Now, sermons are "copyright material" and are the "sole property of the preacher".

This is a quote from a program I have here for the church the Lord has me in right now, because he wants me to rebuke them. Name has been altered to protect identity.

"The services of <this church> are copyrighted and the sole property of <this ministry>. No video or audio taping is allowed without written permission of <this ministry.>"

Now, let me ask you something.

Does that look like something Jesus or an apostle in the Bible would have written?

Not at all. In fact, it looks like something written by a control freak.

Of course, if people could bring their own recorders, then the pastor wouldn't be able to charge $3 for a casette and $15 for a CD and $30 for a DVD.

And yes, the cleansing of the temple is a perfect example.

"Take these things hence. Make not my father's house a house of merchandise."

Now, if you quote this verse to one of these pastors, they will say, "Well, this isn't the Old Testament temple."

But if a teen were to let out a curse in the main sanctuary, you'd here, "Young man, this is the HOUSE OF GOD!"

Even the "good" churches are starting to look more and more like shopping malls, instead of looking like people worshipping God.

We got the t-shirt and the trinket and the tape and the cd and the dvd and the bible commentary and the study bible, because we have lazy christians who think they can buy the Holy Spirit, and we have preachers who are willing to make a profit selling this stuff.

Bryan Cotton

26th September 2008, 09:52 AM

"The services of <this church> are copyrighted and the sole property of <this ministry>. No video or audio taping is allowed without written permission of <this ministry.>"

All I can say is "WOW!"

Even the "good" churches are starting to look more and more like shopping malls, instead of looking like people worshipping God.

A friend of mine said he went to a very big church to visit. He said not only was audio media being sold, he said they had Stuarbuck booths and food booth setup outside of the sanctuary.

And he said people were aloud to bring coffe, pizza and popcorn into the sanctuary. (That's a whole different thread in itself).

Not to go secular but, the word is to me told, not sold.

All I'll say is that church is in Southern California.

Kelly

26th September 2008, 10:04 AM

kat69

26th September 2008, 11:05 AM

Wade Smith

26th September 2008, 11:51 AM

My church charges $1 for CDs and $5 for videos (when they tape them). If they are including nice packaging, I could see charging more. Don't forget that additional costs are going back into the church, anyway. If your church is charging something like $25+ for sermons, I think it's fair to ask around as to what the additional funds go towards. Probably paying the bills.

Here is the thing though, and this is what I tell them.

In the wilderness, when God told Moses to take up an offering for the Tabernacle, the people brought in all the spoils that God had given them.

But God had already provided for the work he was going to do, and more. In fact, the people brought so much stuff that Moses and the workers actually sent them away and told them to stop bringing gifts. Here's the passage.

Exodus 36:3And they received of Moses all the offering, which the children of Israel had brought for the work of the service of the sanctuary, to make it withal. And they brought yet unto him free offerings every morning.

4And all the wise men, that wrought all the work of the sanctuary, came every man from his work which they made;
5And they spake unto Moses, saying, The people bring much more than enough for the service of the work, which the LORD commanded to make. 6And Moses gave commandment, and they caused it to be proclaimed throughout the camp, saying, Let neither man nor woman make any more work for the offering of the sanctuary. So the people were restrained from bringing.

Now they were making a tabernacle where everything was made of the most valuable items possible, and plated with solid gold and silver, with all the fine linens and purples and skins in an age when making a few square feet's worth of "fine linen" would have taken God only knows how long.

The people brought all this stuff because God gave them what was needed before he even commanded the work.

But today in "Church" it is never enough. "Pastor" always needs one more radio station, one more satellite, one more car or house, etc. Always gotta sell you one more thing, or try to convince you to give one more dollar, one way or another.

But this goes back to the sin of the Tower of Babel.

"Let us make a name for ourselves." But God already gave us a name, "Adam". And in Christ, if so be that we are born again, In Christ, we have a "New Name" written in heaven.

Bryan Cotton

26th September 2008, 12:07 PM

Wade Smith

26th September 2008, 12:35 PM

kat69

26th September 2008, 12:39 PM

Sorry...I honestly don't see the problem. You're selling CDs & Videos of a sermon...it's not like you're selling other garbage that doesn't pertain to God's Word. I believe its a form of sharing the gospel. If you have a unbelieving friend, spouse, or family member this could be a way of reaching out to them.

mont974x4

26th September 2008, 12:44 PM

Through all my years traveling around the nation, and the world, I have been in a lot of churches. In all those churches I don't remember many asking for more than it costs to produce the product. I wouldn't stick around a church that was using them to turn a profit.

Also, most of them gladly give them away when necessary. I know I have given tapes away to someone I knew needed the message and I knew they didn't really have the money to spare, no matter how low the cost. Either the pastor covers the cost with his expense account or one of the ministries covers the cost, or a person buys it for them or the cost is absorbed somewhere.

mont974x4

26th September 2008, 12:45 PM

Wade Smith

26th September 2008, 12:47 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Qwwfks7M-M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Yicnvgt_ak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4y261gcpR4

JCFantasy23

26th September 2008, 01:21 PM

I never thought of this before, interesting.

kat69

26th September 2008, 01:22 PM

mont974x4

26th September 2008, 01:34 PM

Nope, I wouldn't have a problem with that.:)

cool! It's been a great blessing.

I hope those that don't like that idea can help me understand why.

Bryan Cotton

26th September 2008, 02:57 PM

BTW, one of our fundraisers for youth finctions is to have a garage sale. The items are donated by members of the church and the kids run the sale under the supervision of the youth pastor. Would some of you have a problem with that?

If the items being sold are not sold inside the church (or the temple.)

I don't think its wrong to sell audio/visual media of sermons. That's fine. My question the righteousness of it if it is done inside of a church since Jesus drove out merchants selling goods out of the temple for turning it into a den of theives when it should be a house of worship.

Markr 11:15 ...and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;

That's were i question it. But The early church in acts actual would sell there property and give the proceeds to the Paul. so a garage sell held on your front lawn and the proceeds going to the church. Thats fine. Selling lawn mowers, old computers, or ahem doves ;) inside the church. well i'm not so sure about that :)

mont974x4

26th September 2008, 03:13 PM

Well, how legalistic of you.

The NT church didn't even have buildings like we do now.

We're not talking about selling doves, or other thinsg for worship. Sorry, there is no connection.

BTW, our sales are in the gym, not the sanctuary. The gym is also where we run our food program, basketball camp for kids in the summer, and other things.

Dies3l

26th September 2008, 06:37 PM

Forget about selling for a profit or charging a rediculous amount. Jesus kicked out those dudes out of the temple for selling. Not for charging to much. Not for charging to much. But for selling and not worhshiping. What part of worhsip is selling a sermon.

Now, the root of my question is selling In side the church. If a pastor is making a living of of his sermon, thats another thing. I'm specifically talking about selling In side the church or On church grounds.

I don't think that Jesus' beef was merely that there was commerce occurring on the temple grounds. My understanding is that the business that was conducted at the temple was incredibly exploitative and was a great hindrance to the worship of God at the Temple. For example, I believe that one type of commerce that occurred was the selling of sacrificial animals to people who had traveled a great distance to the temple. The animals were sold significantly above fair market value because of the fact that the vendors knew that they had a captive audience, much like the increased prices one experiences today at places like movie theaters and amusement parks. But, the practice in the temple was much more despicable than that, because of the religious obligation that one had to make such sacrifices. Essentially, these vendors knew that they could charge whatever prices they wanted and that many people would have no choice but to pay or be left unable to attend to their religious obligation. Another aspect that I have heard about in this passage of Scripture is that the vendors and the money changers conducted their business in the portion of the temple that was available to the Gentiles, thus making it nearly impossible for Gentiles to worship God in the temple. In short, I don't think that it is reasonable to read into the story that Jesus was declaring it a sin to buy and sell on church property. But, rather, what infuriated Jesus was that Temple was used as a means of extorting money out of God-loving Jews and Gentiles.

Of course, one could draw a parallel to churches that sell CDs and such of their own sermons at outrageous prices. And, this objection would be valid whether or not the sales occurred on church property. By the same token, I don't think that there is any biblical reason to suggest that there is anything wrong with selling items in the church at cost or even at a reasonable profit, assuming that the church is 100% transparent about where any profits are going and as long as the profits are used for ministry-related purposes. In short, selling things in church is not inherently sinful; exploitation is inherently sinful, no matter where it occurs, but it is all the more offensive when it is done in church, or even in the name of church (i.e., the body of Christ).

Bryan Cotton

27th September 2008, 01:06 AM

Well, how legalistic of you.
The NT church didn't even have buildings like we do now.
We're not talking about selling doves, or other thinsg for worship. Sorry, there is no connection.
I'm not sure what the NT churches not having buildings have ANYTHING to do with this thread, but I I do take your point as far as "were not talking about selling doves or other things of worship."
Now the gospel of john states three items that were being sold: John 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves. So I'm taking it that you're saying Jesus was only concerned that they were selling items that were used as part of worship. And if you're saying that oxen, sheep and doves were a part of worship back then, then I see your point and it is well taken.
I'm not sure I buy it but if all the above is correct in were your comming from, then I your point is well taken.
I don't think that it is reasonable to read into the story that Jesus was declaring it a sin to buy and sell on church property. But, rather, what infuriated Jesus was that Temple was used as a means of extorting money out of God-loving Jews and Gentiles.
I think I'm reading the scripture for whats there. i think all the things that you said to explain in your post is "reading into it." I'm just going off of whats in the scriptures. Your putting thoughts inside of Jesus' head that is not in the scripture.

However, after reading mont974x4 response, I think it's a fair statment to say Jesus' beef was not so much the selling of items, but the selling of items used for worship. His explination alone I don't but. But when you brought up the notion of explotation and Jesus's did state that they were making the temple a "den of theives," That might hold water in regards to your arguement.

so putting both of your responses together..how does this sound:

Jesus' beef was that they made the temple a den of theives by charging explotive prices for item the jews and gentils needed for worship. THAT arguement sounds better then anything I've heard thus far. Problem is, it is going on a lot of assumptions.

At this point, I can't say if its a sin or not to sell CDs in the church. I'd like to get more responses on this. This is getting interesting.

and sorry for the long response :(

Dies3l

27th September 2008, 10:43 AM

I think I'm reading the scripture for whats there. i think all the things that you said to explain in your post is "reading into it." I'm just going off of whats in the scriptures. Your putting thoughts inside of Jesus' head that is not in the scripture.

Well, actually, I think I am trying to read Scripture in light of its historical/social context. The Bible authors were not writing to 21st Century Americans, so they would not have explained various aspects of their culture that would have been widely understood by their immediate audience. So, sometimes it is necessary when we read Scripture to learn what we can about the culture and use that as a lens in understanding what is written. I realize that your post expresses substantial agreement with what I was trying to get at, but I do think it is worth responding to your statement simply to point out that there is a huge difference between trying to read Scripture in its proper historical context and "putting thoughts inside Jesus' head that is not in Scripture." Unfortunately, far too many modern Christians seem to believe that a modern lens is the appropriate one through which to read and understand Scripture, and they see attempts understanding historical context as inappropriate. I would argue that what is inappropriate is to read Scripture through a modern lens and then to assume that Jesus's intended meaning was entirely consistent with our modern interpretation.

However, after reading mont974x4 response, I think it's a fair statment to say Jesus' beef was not so much the selling of items, but the selling of items used for worship. His explination alone I don't but. But when you brought up the notion of explotation and Jesus's did state that they were making the temple a "den of theives," That might hold water in regards to your arguement. I was going to bring up the fact that Jesus did use the phrase "den of thieves," but you beat me to it ;) Unless Jesus believed that commerce was inherently equivalent to stealing, He would not have used this phrase if his objection was just that they were selling things in the Temple. It seems that we are in substantial agreement on this point.

so putting both of your responses together..how does this sound:

Jesus' beef was that they made the temple a den of theives by charging explotive prices for item the jews and gentils needed for worship. THAT arguement sounds better then anything I've heard thus far. Sounds good. :thumbsup:

Problem is, it is going on a lot of assumptions. All attempts to understand Scripture require us to make certain assumptions. Unfortunately, we often assume that the biblical writers and speakers understood the world from a modern perspective. I think it is better that we assume that they understood the world through the perspective of their own time and place, and then try our best to learn waht we can about that context and its culture, history, and worldview. The problem is that we as modern people are limited in our ability to understand the ancient Jewish worldview of Jesus and His disciples.

At this point, I can't say if its a sin or not to sell CDs in the church. I'd like to get more responses on this. This is getting interesting. As I stated before, I don't see any biblical reason to assume that selling things at church is inherently sinful. But I can certainly see how it, like any other aspect capitalism, can become evil when abused (such as by selling CDs for $25 when they only cost $0.75 to make). I applaud you for considering the perspectives of others in shaping your opinion. All too often, we on these forums are so caught up in trying to win an argument that we don't listen and allow the perspectives of others to shape our own understanding. Reps to you. :)

and sorry for the long response :(No problem. I think mine was even longer. :blush:

mont974x4

27th September 2008, 12:41 PM

What about guest speakers who sell books and CD's to help support their ministries? For example, we had Al Menconi do a conference on "Keeping Your Kids Safe in an Internet Age". We only paid his travel expenses because that is how he wanted it. However, he sold books and CD's in the foyer.

Keep in mind the Bible does say that a man is worthy of his wages, and it is not a sin to make a living on the Gospel. We're not talking about people trying to get rich but people simply supporting their family. See 1 Cor 9 and 1 Tim 5.

Bryan Cotton

28th September 2008, 12:53 AM

Well, actually, I think I am trying to read Scripture in light of its historical/social context. The Bible authors were not writing to 21st Century Americans, so they would not have explained various aspects of their culture that would have been widely understood by their immediate audience.

You know what, I totally agree. In fact, one of the reasons why I post is to see if someone will respond along those aspects. Since i have not studied the historical cultures of that time yet, as I'm still trying to get through the whole bible, I count on fellowship like this to get better insight on scriptures.

Unfortunately, far too many modern Christians seem to believe that a modern lens is the appropriate one through which to read and understand Scripture, and they see attempts understanding historical context as inappropriate. I would argue that what is inappropriate is to read Scripture through a modern lens and then to assume that Jesus’ intended meaning was entirely consistent with our modern interpretation.

True, and not only that. To many switch back and forth to using a modern day lense on something’s, but not on others to fit there lifestyle. But I wont get into that.

What about guest speakers who sell books and CD's to help support their ministries? For example, we had Al Menconi do a conference on "Keeping Your Kids Safe in an Internet Age". We only paid his travel expenses because that is how he wanted it. However, he sold books and CD's in the foyer.

Keep in mind the Bible does say that a man is worthy of his wages, and it is not a sin to make a living on the Gospel. We're not talking about people trying to get rich but people simply supporting their family. See 1 Cor 9 and 1 Tim 5.

Well my thing, originally, was selling in the church period. So with that being said I was questioning ANY selling in the church no matter what its for. A man can earn his wage by selling the samebooks and CDs outside of the church, because the church (or temple back in that culture) was for worship, not for merchandise.

Rember Dies3l and mont974x4, in John it’s stated like this:

John 2:16
And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

With that passage, it makes me lean towards selling anyting. He specifically says merchandise, not items used for worship. Although you can still say that the items used for worship is merchandise.

trentlogain

28th September 2008, 07:27 AM

yam

28th September 2008, 05:38 PM

some churches have resturant , Book store and other things in the church. I don't see anoy harm in selling tapes the profits from th etapes are going to the church. churches has lots of expensive.

Benoni

28th September 2008, 05:57 PM

If Jesus got mad at anyone it was the money changers.

Benoni

28th September 2008, 07:40 PM

I completely disagree with selling sermons that are preached out of a pulpit. I believe it goes against every principle of The Bible. On the other hand, The Bible says a labor is worth of his wages. So I also believe the preacher should and will get compensated for what he does. If it's music that's being distributed and it's what the artists do for a living then I would expect them to get paid for their material too.

There is far too much money changing in the church today, total commercialism. When I was younger I belong to a church who demanded if you can’t pay tithes for whatever reason; you’re a back slider; might be a little old lady who can‘t pay her rent on a fixed income. What a sad deal; it is time God’s people should help people; instead demand beyond tithes their needs.

There is a higher order then this; under not the law but grace; not under the old Levical order but the Melchisedec order. When ever there is a ministry out there that takes tithes I know they are trusting men for there livelihood and not God. All the ministries I support will give you God’s Word; and never; I mean never ask or beg for money.

They will send boxes of tapes or literature, even books, what ever you ask and will never take a dime; yes they will receive; but not take. They have no Hugh denomination or system to support them; only their faith in God will provide every need; some do not even have local bodies; yet God will provide. These men and women of God serve thousands of God’s people; And God takes care of them beyond your imagination.

Hebrews 7:5And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
6But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
7And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

I do; and have run across a ministry that sells God’s Word or take tithes; I just don’t support them. I do not believe in fleecing God’s flock. Jesus turned over the money changers table in the temple; still thousands of ministries all they do is beg; and steal from God’s people or sell God‘s Word as merchandise.

God calls men not systems.....

Wade Smith

29th September 2008, 09:06 AM

First of all, New Testament giving:
In the book of Acts, when the people sold what they had, they gave it to PETER and the book says they distributed to the poor.

The apostles in the Bible usually had full time jobs, and took an offering for themselves only when they were unable to work or on a long journey.

The money they DID take up was given directly to the poor or used to plant other churches, not to buy themselves mansions and servants...

Second, cleansing of the Temple:

If you pay attention to the stories, Jesus actually cleansed the temple at least twice. Notice how John's "cleansing" story is actually completely different, and occurs immediately after the water is turned into wine in Cana, at the beginning of his ministry, whereas the others place a cleansing story never the very end of Jesus' life.

Notice also that Jesus doesn't just cast out those who sold. He also casts out those who bought, laying blame on both parties, not just the "extortioners".

Notice also that the language Jesus uses is slightly different in John's story. "a house of merchandise" vs "a den of thieves".

Implying two different events.

John 2:12After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.

13And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
14And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
16And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise. 17And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

Matthew 21:10And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this?

11And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.
12And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
13And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves. 14And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.

Luke 19:45And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought;
46Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.

If it was just a matter of "extortion", then why would Jesus chase away those who bought? Notice, Jesus literally threw the people out of the temple, Both seller and buyer. If it was just a matter of extortion, then the buyer would be "innocent" and would not have been cast out. But Jesus cast out both.

third point: cds and tapes and things

Matthew 10:8
Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Neither Paul, nor any of the apostles, nor their associates ever asked for an offering at Corinth or ever "charged" to preach the gospel or distribute letters. They preached there all together for several years. Paul was actually there for like 2 or 3 years, on the first mission, and never asked for an offering.

2 Cor. 12:12Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

13For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong.
14Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.
15And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved.
16But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.
17Did I make a gain of you by any of them whom I sent unto you? 18I desired Titus, and with him I sent a brother. Did Titus make a gain of you? walked we not in the same spirit? walked we not in the same steps?

Titus and his associates didn't ask for an offering either.

They actually had jobs like normal people.

Whatever money goes into the church is supposed to be used for maintenance and utilities, and then distributed to the poor, the orphans and widows.

It is not supposed to be padding the preacher's pocketbook.

The Bible does say, "Thou shalt not muzzle the ox..." and other similar passages, but the example set by Paul and the others in the New Testament is that the preacher really is supposed to take an offering for himself only if absolutely necessary for an emergency or something like that.

Wade Smith

29th September 2008, 09:13 AM

There is far too much money changing in the church today, total commercialism. When I was younger I belong to a church who demanded if you can’t pay tithes for whatever reason; you’re a back slider; might be a little old lady who can‘t pay her rent on a fixed income. What a sad deal; it is time God’s people should help people; instead demand beyond tithes their needs.

There is a higher order then this; under not the law but grace; not under the old Levical order but the Melchisedec order. When ever there is a ministry out there that takes tithes I know they are trusting men for there livelihood and not God. All the ministries I support will give you God’s Word; and never; I mean never ask or beg for money.

They will send boxes of tapes or literature, even books, what ever you ask and will never take a dime; yes they will receive; but not take. They have no Hugh denomination or system to support them; only their faith in God will provide every need; some do not even have local bodies; yet God will provide. These men and women of God serve thousands of God’s people; And God takes care of them beyond your imagination.

Hebrews 7:5And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
6But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
7And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

I do; and have run across a ministry that sells God’s Word or take tithes; I just don’t support them. I do not believe in fleecing God’s flock. Jesus turned over the money changers table in the temple; still thousands of ministries all they do is beg; and steal from God’s people or sell God‘s Word as merchandise.

God calls men not systems.....

God has been showing me this and really I was raised that way, but somehow I got mixed up with "churchianity". God had to get it back in my head.

The Tithe was for the Levitical priesthood. The "Sons of Levi". But none of us are levites, and the probability is your "pastor" isn't a Levite either.

It is strange that the only times the word "Tithe" appears in the New Testament is in reference to Jesus rebuking the pharisees because they had faith in tithing, or in reference to Paul teaching on the Jesus, the "High Priest forever after the order of Melchisedec".

The tithe was fulfilled in Christ. There is no more "tithe", there is only "free will offerings" without coercion.

Dies3l

29th September 2008, 05:34 PM

God has been showing me this and really I was raised that way, but somehow I got mixed up with "churchianity". God had to get it back in my head.

The Tithe was for the Levitical priesthood. The "Sons of Levi". But none of us are levites, and the probability is your "pastor" isn't a Levite either.

It is strange that the only times the word "Tithe" appears in the New Testament is in reference to Jesus rebuking the pharisees because they had faith in tithing, or in reference to Paul teaching on the Jesus, the "High Priest forever after the order of Melchisedec".

The tithe was fulfilled in Christ. There is no more "tithe", there is only "free will offerings" without coercion.

Unfortunately, many of the people who vehemently reject tithing give little or nothing to support the ministry of the Church (Note that I said most; If you happen to be an exception, then that does not rebut my statement) . I agree with the principle that a person should not be rejected or ostracized in any way based on the amount that they give, and that giving should not be under compulsion or coercion. But, I would challenge any Christian who finds that their giving falls well short of the tithe to consider why that is. Paul tells us to give generously. Paul was also an observant Jew who understood the idea that, in the Jewish tradition, a tithe was a bare minimum. Do you think that when Paul said that we ought to give generously he was saying that we ought to give less than the bare minimum? I highly doubt it. Thus, I would argue that the tithe still has value, not as a command of the law or a moral compulsion, but as a measuring stick to help guide us in understanding what it means to be generous. In other words, we should learn to think of the tithe as a minimum standard, not in the sense that we will earn favor with God by giving it or lose his favor by not giving it, but in the sense that it should give us an idea of what generosity looks like.

MoNiCa4316

4th October 2008, 06:50 PM

Wade Smith

4th October 2008, 07:14 PM

I think that they should either give the CDs for free, or for a very small amount just to cover the costs. This wouldn't be 10 dollars lol (as someone said in another post)

it's different when you're tithing, cause then you're not buying anything, you're just giving a donation to the church..

I don't really support churches selling CDs and tapes and things.

I don't have a problem with them selling teaching materials "at cost", and even at a reasonable profit in the case of something large like a Bible commentary.

But a 600% markup is just completely ridiculous.

Also, the way media works, once you have that master copy of a CD or DVD, the only "expense" beyond the initial labour put into the sermon(an hour or so plus their preperaton time, which they were going to do anyway with or without a recording device), then there are no further expenses except the cost of the CD or DVD. So if they made 5000 copies and sold them all at 10% markup, and then decide to make another 5000 copies, the only expense is the cost of the disks and packaging. Its not like they re-did the whole sermon. It's on disk and the computer can crank out dozens of them at a time in a few seconds.

Mrs Butterworth

4th October 2008, 10:30 PM

Wade Smith

5th October 2008, 06:16 AM

This may be a bit off topic but what do you think about churches that ask you to give them an estimation of how much you will tithe each month? This does not set well with me but I can't think of any scripture to help me here.

It's none of their business.

But ask the pastor to give you a copy of the church's financials each month. If they want your money, you have a right to know where it's going.

See how much of the money goes to doing what James said it should do: feed the needy, the orphans, and widows, and prison ministries.

Also, just come right out and ask the Pastor how much money he makes in a year. If it is significantly more than the average person in the congregation(based on a rough estimate), or if it is significantly more than what a doctor or nurse would make, then the guy has a problem.

While you're at it, find out what any other paid church leaders or helpers incomes are.

The book of proverbs says, "He who robs from the poor and he who gives to the rich shall both come to lack."

To me, this suggests you should not give to someone who already makes more money than you do. If your pastor drives a better car than you and lives in a bigger house and wears more expensive clothes, DON'T GIVE HIM ANYTHING. Go give the money to some hole in the wall church, or give it to a reliable christian food bank.

trentlogain

5th October 2008, 12:29 PM

There is far too much money changing in the church today, total commercialism. When I was younger I belong to a church who demanded if you can’t pay tithes for whatever reason; you’re a back slider; might be a little old lady who can‘t pay her rent on a fixed income. What a sad deal; it is time God’s people should help people; instead demand beyond tithes their needs.

There is a higher order then this; under not the law but grace; not under the old Levical order but the Melchisedec order. When ever there is a ministry out there that takes tithes I know they are trusting men for there livelihood and not God. All the ministries I support will give you God’s Word; and never; I mean never ask or beg for money.

They will send boxes of tapes or literature, even books, what ever you ask and will never take a dime; yes they will receive; but not take. They have no Hugh denomination or system to support them; only their faith in God will provide every need; some do not even have local bodies; yet God will provide. These men and women of God serve thousands of God’s people; And God takes care of them beyond your imagination.

Hebrews 7:5And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
6But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
7And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

I do; and have run across a ministry that sells God’s Word or take tithes; I just don’t support them. I do not believe in fleecing God’s flock. Jesus turned over the money changers table in the temple; still thousands of ministries all they do is beg; and steal from God’s people or sell God‘s Word as merchandise.

God calls men not systems.....

I agree with you completely. The only other thing I would add is my own view that people who don't affiliate themselves with the local new testament church, (I'm talking about a visible institution) then I would disagree with giving them a dime.

Dies3l

5th October 2008, 03:58 PM

It's none of their business.

But ask the pastor to give you a copy of the church's financials each month. If they want your money, you have a right to know where it's going.

See how much of the money goes to doing what James said it should do: feed the needy, the orphans, and widows, and prison ministries.

Also, just come right out and ask the Pastor how much money he makes in a year. If it is significantly more than the average person in the congregation(based on a rough estimate), or if it is significantly more than what a doctor or nurse would make, then the guy has a problem.

While you're at it, find out what any other paid church leaders or helpers incomes are.

Any good church will provide this kind of information to its membership as a matter of course. At my church, for example, we are provided with an annual budget twice per year, and asked to vote to approve or reject it at that time. At the same time, we are provided detailed information about where the tithes and offerings went during the previous year. My experience is that this type of transparency is by far the norm rather than the exception, and I would be highly suspect of a church in which it was not.

I also wish to point out that in the vast majority of churches in this country, including my own, the pastors and other staff make considerably less than most people with comparable education and experience. For example, my wife, who has a bachelor's degree, works 40-50 hours per week, and has worked for our church for several years makes quite a bit less than the starting salary for a fast food manager. To me this fact states quite clearly that we value Big Macs more than we value professional ministry. But, what troubles me even more is the insinuation by some well meaning Christians that she is somehow stealing from the congregation by accepting any salary at all. Likewise, our pastor, who has a master's degree and has been in professional ministry for 20+ years, makes considerably less than just about any other professional in our society with comparable education and experience.

The book of proverbs says, "He who robs from the poor and he who gives to the rich shall both come to lack."

To me, this suggests you should not give to someone who already makes more money than you do. If your pastor drives a better car than you and lives in a bigger house and wears more expensive clothes, DON'T GIVE HIM ANYTHING. Go give the money to some hole in the wall church, or give it to a reliable christian food bank.

I would agree with your statement if you are suggesting that you would also change your membership to the same hole in the wall church. Otherwise, I think this perspective is unbiblical. If you don't trust and value your local church enough to give generously to it, then you should not trust your spiritual development to it either. To be fed by a church and to refuse to support it, no matter how noble your justification may seem, is nothing short of stealing from God. I am not saying that the church has any business asking for accounting as to your income or that the church should demand a tithe or any amount for that matter. But, I would say that part of knowing Jesus is a desire to give generously, joyfully, and freely to your local body of believers to support the ministry that God is doing through it.

little_tigress

5th October 2008, 05:50 PM

Why do churches sale CDs, Tapes and DVDs of previous and the current day message? does this go against the bible.

Mt 21:12And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,Mt 21:13And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

not necessarily, many churches use the money from those sales in order to fund missions, outreach, etc... the verse in question refers to people who used the temple, and by association God Himself, as a way to exploit the people of God financially for their own selfish gain.

and besides most churches offer the free option of accessing those sermons online.

Wade Smith

5th October 2008, 05:55 PM

To be fed by a church and to refuse to support it, no matter how noble your justification may seem, is nothing short of stealing from God.

Key phrase "to be fed".

But what does the scripture really say about this?

Jesus told the pharisees that Moses did not give their fathers the manna, but rather the Father in Heaven gave the manna.

I am not "fed" by a pastor or any other preacher. I am "fed" by the Lord, both physically and spiritually.

1 John2:20But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

21I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

John chapters 14-16 also has some very interesting things to say about the Holy Spirit teaching us.

Man cannot really teach one another anything, particularly as it regards spiritual things. You can read this post, but unless you listen to God, you wont learn anything from it anyway. Besides, don't take my word for it, read the Bible and seek God in prayer in Jesus' name.

The best a Pastor can do is remind a believer of what they are already supposed to know, and even then, only the Holy Spirit can really do that.

Then when you really begin to realize this, you will see how defunct the modern "system" of "religion" in Christianity really is.

And again, "Give and it shall be given unto you good measure pressed down and shaken together and overflowing..."

All the money I've ever given to church, and you know what? I have "reaped" blessings off of some of it thank the Lord, and some are still waiting in the wind, and again thank the Lord.

HOWEVER, "The preaching of the cross is to those who perish foolishness, but to us who are saved it is the power of God."

You REALLY want to get blessed by God? I could care less for money so long as I have enough to eat from day to day.

You really want to get blessed? I say, "Give and it shall be given unto you," but this is the true prosperity message, the true parable of the sower, the true "law of recipricocity", and here it is:

Well, I want more of Jesus, not more of Franklins and Jacksons and whatever.

"You reap what you sow."

So I give the only thing that really matters to me, and that is the Word of God and the Love of God that he manifests in the heart.

How much better is it to get wisdom than gold! and to get understanding rather to be chosen than silver!

The "Wisdom of God" is the Gospel of Jesus Christ(1 Cor. 1:1-2:16)

===

These organized "churches" you see today, by and large, do not at all function like the book of Acts church nor like what Paul is encouraging in 1 and 2 Corinthians (not the parts he is rebuking.)

How can the "members" of the body function as they should, when the "pastors" and other "elders" have no interest in allowing it? If you are not a pastor or one of his assistant pastors, or a singer, then about the only thing you are allowed to do is sit on the pew and pay tithe, and give to the food pantry. Wow. Gee. an atheist can do that, and he isn't even a member of the "body of Christ".

But Jesus said, "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."

This morning I went and preached to the truckers at the Petro and I had been in prayer about this really all week. "God, do you want me to preach this week, and if so, what to preach on?" Well, the Lord really had already answered as early as monday.

The things work there is simple and very informal. One brother leads in an opening prayer, then whoever is lead by the Holy Spirit to preach, well, preaches. It is discussed ahead of time, "Hey brother, do you feel lead to preach today?"

"Sure, God's put such and such on my heart".

"Ok. This brother will speak first and then you and I'll close."

And so, "In the mouth of Two or three witnesses shall a thing be established."

So I have what I knew the Lord put on my heart to preach, and I'm sitting there waiting for the other brother to start preaching, and his message tied in beautifully with mine. Different passages, but the same basic message: "We've already won the Battle in Christ Jesus". We knew it was of the Lord, because the messages meshed wonderfully, and because we had each been seeking the Lord for what to preach and whether to preach or just hold our tongues.

This is truly being "Led the by the Spirit", because my prayer in this regard is likewise:

"God, don't let me screw it up. Your word says that you will be with my mouth and teach me what to say, so I trust you to do it right now for your Glory and for the sake of souls who might be saved or delivered. If you don't want me to speak, shut me up, otherwise, anoint me to preach and teach, and anoint their ears to hear, in the name of Jesus."

But the Glory is the Lord's.

There is nothing quite like doing what God told you to do.

More sheep were fed in this manner than many an "Organized" christian service.

Dies3l

5th October 2008, 08:46 PM

Key phrase "to be fed".

But what does the scripture really say about this?

[clipped for brevity] . . . .

After reading your post, I wonder why (or if) you believe people should even go to church at all. After all if they have nothing to offer that one cannot obtain through private Bible study, why not just stay home?

In my opinion, there are several reasons why churches do and should exist. The most important is the community. The Gospel is all about community. It is not just about our individual relationships with God, but also about our relationships with each other and our communal relationship with God. This is central, for example, to understanding 1 Corinthians.

Another reason for church is to learn from those more mature than ourselves. Paul did not go around from church to church telling people what they already knew; he taught them. He provided milk to those who were immature and meat to those who were more developed. In the same way, we turn to pastors and other leaders today who are more spiritually mature and knowledgeable than ourselves, because we are quite limited about what we can learn from Scripture without learning its social, historical, and literary context. We are not called simply to hole ourselves up into a room and read Scripture and expect great revelation. Instead, we are to teach and learn from one another about what God reveals through Scripture. And, ultimately, it is beneficial for us to turn to a person who has taken the time to thoroughly study the Scriptures alongside the most knowledgeable people available. Today, this training is call Seminary, and it costs money and requires a substantial time investment. And those who choose to dedicate themselves to learning the Scriptures at such a level and sharing it with others deserve to be fairly compensated.

A third reason for church, that is really, just a combination of the first two is that Scripture was meant to be read and understood in community. Nowhere in Scripture do we see any indication that studying Scripture was meant to be a solitary experience. In fact, in the days when it was written, the idea of reading anything by oneself was unheard of; reading was a communal experience. The fact that technology and educational levels of modern people have made it possible to enjoy solitary experiences with written text does not change the fact that the Bible was written to be shared as part of a community.

And, communities are often well organized. Not only is there nothing wrong with a well organized community, I would argue that a high level of organization is needed if a community is to function well in its purpose. And, if organization is to occur in a decently sized community, it requires that some of its leaders devote their lives to serving the community. A church is nothing more than a community whose purpose is to spread the gospel. If it is going to be effective, it needs to be well organized. At a certain size, this level of organization requires that it have leaders whose career is to lead the congregation. And, if this leader is going to devote himself to such a mission, he deserves to be compensated; both Paul and Jesus have explicitly stated so. And, I would argue that if you choose to participate in and receive the benefits of being a part of such a community and refuse to take care of your leaders and refuse to participate financially in helping the church to accomplish its objective (ie., spreading the Gospel), then you are effectively stealing from God, no matter what other good works you may do. This is the case, no matter how you may justify otherwise.

You mention the Acts 2 church. One of the remarkable aspects of that church was its members willingness to give everything they owned to the ministry of the church and to trust God for their material needs. I would love to see the modern church function like this. But, it strikes me as a bit ironic to see the person who is arguing against this level of generosity, who is claiming that there is no reason to give financially to ones church, citing this example. You are right this is a good example, and in following, we as Christians should never be satisfied with merely tithing. We should strive to give everything to the Church. Unfortunately, we all, myself included, fall short of this goal. But this is not an argument for more stinginess as it seems you are claiming, but rather and argument for more generosity.

I applaud you for your ministry at the truck stop. I would not seek to belittle you for such ministry, and I am sure that God is using it for great things. But, I would hope that you would also see what God is doing through larger and more organized bodies. Small and large communities all have their place in the Kingdom. But, just as the truck stop ministry requires that people be willing to support it (someone is paying for the space that you use, the Bibles that you pass out, and so forth), larger churches also have needs on a scale that is roughly proportionate to their size. I would encourage you not to be so quick to belittle the ministries of others out or to be prideful about your own ministry. While there is room for your ministry in the Kingdom, there is no room for pride.

Wade Smith

6th October 2008, 10:27 AM

After reading your post, I wonder why (or if) you believe people should even go to church at all. After all if they have nothing to offer that one cannot obtain through private Bible study, why not just stay home?

In my opinion, there are several reasons why churches do and should exist. The most important is the community. The Gospel is all about community. It is not just about our individual relationships with God, but also about our relationships with each other and our communal relationship with God. This is central, for example, to understanding 1 Corinthians.

Another reason for church is to learn from those more mature than ourselves. Paul did not go around from church to church telling people what they already knew; he taught them. He provided milk to those who were immature and meat to those who were more developed. In the same way, we turn to pastors and other leaders today who are more spiritually mature and knowledgeable than ourselves, because we are quite limited about what we can learn from Scripture without learning its social, historical, and literary context. We are not called simply to hole ourselves up into a room and read Scripture and expect great revelation. Instead, we are to teach and learn from one another about what God reveals through Scripture. And, ultimately, it is beneficial for us to turn to a person who has taken the time to thoroughly study the Scriptures alongside the most knowledgeable people available. Today, this training is call Seminary, and it costs money and requires a substantial time investment. And those who choose to dedicate themselves to learning the Scriptures at such a level and sharing it with others deserve to be fairly compensated.

In my experience, and I've sat under many of these so-called "dedicated" seminary preachers, in my experience they do not know the Bible nearly as well as people are led to believe.

I am in the process of visiting yet another "traditional" church, and yesterday after going to the truck stop from 830-1030, I visit this other "church".

Well, nothing against the pastor, but he spent the whole sermon talking about "signs" and I sat there and listened to this, and in hindsight, there was next to nothing in there that really had anything to do with salvation or sanctification of the believer.

Jesus said there would be no sign given except that of the prophet Jonah. Jesus also said signs follow believers. Believers do not follow signs.

So the pastor's entire message contradicted the very scriptures he tried to use to support it.

A third reason for church, that is really, just a combination of the first two is that Scripture was meant to be read and understood in community. Nowhere in Scripture do we see any indication that studying Scripture was meant to be a solitary experience.

Check out the Book of Daniel(9:2) and 2 Timoth 2:15.

"Study to shew thyself approved."

The only person I'm going to speak for when I stand before the Lord is my own self. Much as I would like to "save everybody", it just doesn't work that way.

Christianity is not "community property". It is a personal relationship with God.

In fact, in the days when it was written, the idea of reading anything by oneself was unheard of;

Not really. There is yet another example in the Book of Acts of the man reading the scroll of Isaiah by himself, having never heard of Jesus. And then Philip goes and preaches Jesus to him.

reading was a communal experience. The fact that technology and educational levels of modern people have made it possible to enjoy solitary experiences with written text does not change the fact that the Bible was written to be shared as part of a community.

And, communities are often well organized. Not only is there nothing wrong with a well organized community, I would argue that a high level of organization is needed if a community is to function well in its purpose. And, if organization is to occur in a decently sized community, it requires that some of its leaders devote their lives to serving the community. A church is nothing more than a community whose purpose is to spread the gospel.

Yet, by and large, "the gospel" is not spread by these "communities" you call "church". The pastor preaches to the so-called sheep, and by and large they do nothing for God during the week and live like the devil. And the sermon the pastor does preach has nothing to do with the Gospel either half the time, so its a complete waste anyway.

If it is going to be effective, it needs to be well organized. At a certain size, this level of organization requires that it have leaders whose career is to lead the congregation. And, if this leader is going to devote himself to such a mission, he deserves to be compensated; both Paul and Jesus have explicitly stated so. And, I would argue that if you choose to participate in and receive the benefits of being a part of such a community and refuse to take care of your leaders and refuse to participate financially in helping the church to accomplish its objective (ie., spreading the Gospel), then you are effectively stealing from God, no matter what other good works you may do. This is the case, no matter how you may justify otherwise.

You see, you don't know me and don't know anything about me. The fact of the matter is, I give TOO MUCH and get far too little from these people in return.

You mention the Acts 2 church. One of the remarkable aspects of that church was its members willingness to give everything they owned to the ministry of the church and to trust God for their material needs. I would love to see the modern church function like this. But, it strikes me as a bit ironic to see the person who is arguing against this level of generosity, who is claiming that there is no reason to give financially to ones church, citing this example.

I did not argue against generosity at all. Quit putting words in my mouth.

If you read closesly, the church in ACTS gave to the poor and the widows and orphans, not to preachers. Many of the "preachers" had secular jobs.

You are right this is a good example, and in following, we as Christians should never be satisfied with merely tithing. We should strive to give everything to the Church. Unfortunately, we all, myself included, fall short of this goal. But this is not an argument for more stinginess as it seems you are claiming, but rather and argument for more generosity.

I am not stingy. I don't know exactly how much money I gave to "church" in the past several years, but if you don't count me paying off student loans, then I believe it is safe to say that, one way or another, I actually gave more money to "church" from about 2001-to present time, than what I spent on my own self.

Honestly, I wish I had most of it back to give to better stewards.

I applaud you for your ministry at the truck stop.

I don't want your applause. Don't applaud me for anything.

I would not seek to belittle you for such ministry, and I am sure that God is using it for great things. But, I would hope that you would also see what God is doing through larger and more organized bodies.

The only thing that ever seems to happen in larger bodies is everybody drops some money in the bucket so the pastor and his top few buddies control everything, and everyone is just a resource to be tapped and fleeced at any time, and this is true even in the "best" churches I've ever been in.

Small and large communities all have their place in the Kingdom. But, just as the truck stop ministry requires that people be willing to support it (someone is paying for the space that you use, the Bibles that you pass out, and so forth)

As far as I can tell, the space is given for free by an unbeliever who owns the truck stop.

The money comes out of the brother's own pocket.

larger churches also have needs on a scale that is roughly proportionate to their size. I would encourage you not to be so quick to belittle the ministries of others out or to be prideful about your own ministry. While there is room for your ministry in the Kingdom, there is no room for pride.

Here is the problem. In a church with 160+ people, we are to believe that nobody in the congregation except one person has any "call" or "gift" to preach?

In a church, which ironically one of the best in my home state, that has over 1000 sunday members, I have only ever seen a total of 7 members preach to the main congregation, plus 2 or 3 visiting pastors, and this in a period of about 6 years. Among those 7 members who I have seen preach, the first 3 are "daddy, son, and grandson" and the 4th is "daddy's" best buddy and "president" of their Bible college, and the 3 others all graduated from their bible college.

Inbred satellite christians.
For all the "good" teaching that goes on there, almost none of it is actually obeyed by anyone, including the pastors themselves.
====

You want to talk about seminary school?

Well, I know for a fact that God himself has told me NOT to go to Bible schools or seminary, and because the vast majority of them don't know the Bible.

Last wednesday when I went and talked to the pastor of this church I visited yesterday, he mentioned a sermon he gave, and I found it ironic that he did not see the irony of the situation. When I told him I knew I was called to preach, he,like so many others, immediately tried to push a "bible school" on me and tell me I need to be "credentialed".

So he tells me about this sermon he preached in which he made a "christianized" version of the "wizard of oz". Personally, I was sort of disappointed to hear this. At any rate, in his sermon he had talked about how none of them got "healed". The scarecrow didn't get a brain after all. All he got was a diploma. The tin man didn't get a heart. He just got a medal or whatever. The lion didn't really get courage, he too just got a medal.

So the guy didn't see the irony of his own sermon. You can get that piece of paper from your favorite Bible college, but it doesn't mean a darn thing in God's eyes. Its just as worthless as the scarecrow getting a diploma when a brain is what he needed.

The church wants Saul's armor (aka, diplomas and medals), or else they want one of the older sons of Jesse(talent,looks), but they don't want the "Davids" and the "Amoses" of the kingdom; leave them in the field tending sheep or farming or whatever, and don't even bother to call them.

It's why the Baptists and methodists and other mainline denominations didn't want anything to do with Azusa street. It was out of their control and wasn't "beautiful", and they called it a work of the devil, yet people were getting healed and coming to Christ by the hundreds and eventually thousands. The biggest mistake that was made at Azusa Street is when they put a name on the building several years after the initial revival. Then it just became another "denomination".

Well, whether you believe it or not, I am called to preach, and really much more than that, but nobody really wants to hear the Gospel, least of all the so-called church. They want you to jump through their 2 hoops and over a hurdle (join their Bible college and their denomination and sign all sorts of creeds and oaths) till they brainwash you into doing things their way, according to their religious traditions and doctrines, and regardless of what the Bible says about it. "My way or the highway."

Well, I'd rather have Jesus.

Dies3l

6th October 2008, 06:28 PM

In my experience, and I've sat under many of these so-called "dedicated" seminary preachers, in my experience they do not know the Bible nearly as well as people are led to believe.

I am in the process of visiting yet another "traditional" church, and yesterday after going to the truck stop from 830-1030, I visit this other "church".

...

Yet, by and large, "the gospel" is not spread by these "communities" you call "church". The pastor preaches to the so-called sheep, and by and large they do nothing for God during the week and live like the devil. And the sermon the pastor does preach has nothing to do with the Gospel either half the time, so its a complete waste anyway.

....

The only thing that ever seems to happen in larger bodies is everybody drops some money in the bucket so the pastor and his top few buddies control everything, and everyone is just a resource to be tapped and fleeced at any time, and this is true even in the "best" churches I've ever been in.

...

The church wants Saul's armor (aka, diplomas and medals), or else they want one of the older sons of Jesse(talent,looks), but they don't want the "Davids" and the "Amoses" of the kingdom; leave them in the field tending sheep or farming or whatever, and don't even bother to call them.

It's why the Baptists and methodists and other mainline denominations didn't want anything to do with Azusa street. It was out of their control and wasn't "beautiful", and they called it a work of the devil, yet people were getting healed and coming to Christ by the hundreds and eventually thousands. The biggest mistake that was made at Azusa Street is when they put a name on the building several years after the initial revival. Then it just became another "denomination".

You seem to have quite a lot of contempt for the very institution that the Bible calls the body of Christ, the Bride of Christ, and the temple of the Holy Spirit. Like it or hate it, this is what the Bible says about the Church, and there is nothing in Scripture to indicate that this has changed. This certainly does not mean that she is perfect, but I do think it warrants that we give her a certain amount of respect and that we seek to build her up rather than to tear her down. And, yes, I do agree with you that there are some groups that claim to be a part of the church but who teach a gospel that is entirely inconsistent with the Gospel of Christ (e.g., the so-called prosperity gospel), but the fact that some such groups does not justify a wholesale condemnation of all facets of an organized church.

Check out the Book of Daniel(9:2) and 2 Timoth 2:15.

"Study to shew thyself approved."

The only person I'm going to speak for when I stand before the Lord is my own self. Much as I would like to "save everybody", it just doesn't work that way.

Christianity is not "community property". It is a personal relationship with God.

Not really. There is yet another example in the Book of Acts of the man reading the scroll of Isaiah by himself, having never heard of Jesus. And then Philip goes and preaches Jesus to him.

Um, the Ethiopian Eunuch was a far cry from being an ordinary person of his day and time. Ordinary people did not read and certainly did not own scrolls. So, that example is a poor one. It would be like a person of the future reading about Donald Trump flying around in his private jet and assuming that all people of today must own private jets.

By and large the church of the New Testament exists as a community of believers teaching and learning from one another about the Gospel. It was not a grouping of individuals who had "personal relationships with God." In fact the phrase "personal relationship with God" never once appears in the Bible, because it is a thoroughly modern concept. I am not belittling this concept at all. I do think there is value to thinking of our relationship with God as personal, so long as we do not forget that it is also interpersonal and communal, and that the idea of a personal relationship is a modern contribution to our understanding of the Gospel.

You see, you don't know me and don't know anything about me. The fact of the matter is, I give TOO MUCH and get far too little from these people in return.

You are right, I do not know anything about you, other than what you have told me on this forum. But, I can say that a person who complains about "get[ting] far too little from these people in return" betrays a certain lack of generosity, because generosity, by definition involves a willingness to share without expectation of anything in return.

I did not argue against generosity at all. Quit putting words in my mouth. [/quote]

You are arguing against giving to your local church body. I see this is as antithetical to generosity. You disagree. I guess we are at an impasse.

If you read closesly, the church in ACTS gave to the poor and the widows and orphans, not to preachers. Many of the "preachers" had secular jobs.

Acts 2:44 "And all that believed were together, and had all things common"

Although it does not say how much went to the preachers, it does seem to say quite clearly that all of the members shared all that they had with the church, and the next verse says that it was distributed by the community "to all men, as every man had need." Thus the Acts 2 model is everyone gives everything to the local church community, and the community redistributes according to the needs of those within and without, including presumably the pastors.

As to your last assertion, it is mere speculation that "many of the preachers had secular jobs." What is not mere speculation is that both Paul and Jesus stated specifically that a pastor has a right to be compensated by the church.

I am not stingy. I don't know exactly how much money I gave to "church" in the past several years, but if you don't count me paying off student loans, then I believe it is safe to say that, one way or another, I actually gave more money to "church" from about 2001-to present time, than what I spent on my own self.

I never said you were stingy. But, your arguments could be used to justify stinginess. I do not know you or claim to know anything about you other than what you have told me about yourself via this forum/

I don't want your applause. Don't applaud me for anything.

I'm sorry. Do you want me to insult you so that you can complain about being persecuted?

As far as I can tell, the space is given for free by an unbeliever who owns the truck stop.

The money comes out of the brother's own pocket.

My point exactly. The truck stop owner and the person who organizes the ministry pay for the ministry. It costs somebody money. In this case, the two people you mentioned. In the case of a larger church, the cost is usually divided among those who count themselves as members. The only difference between the two is size and scope. But both require the expenditure of money by those who wish to see the ministry bear fruit.

Here is the problem. In a church with 160+ people, we are to believe that nobody in the congregation except one person has any "call" or "gift" to preach?

No. In many churches, it is not uncommon at all for lay people to participate in teaching and preaching.

Well, whether you believe it or not, I am called to preach, and really much more than that, but nobody really wants to hear the Gospel, least of all the so-called church. They want you to jump through their 2 hoops and over a hurdle (join their Bible college and their denomination and sign all sorts of creeds and oaths) till they brainwash you into doing things their way, according to their religious traditions and doctrines, and regardless of what the Bible says about it. "My way or the highway."

Well, I'd rather have Jesus.

I have no idea whether you are called to preach. I don't agree that taking time to study the Bible with more knowledgeable believers constitutes "brainwashing," unless by brainwashing you mean, getting rid of your own preconceived notions of what the Bible teaches and replacing it with an understanding that is based on the actual text and context of the Bible. Personally, I would rather not try to lean on my own understanding, but I would rather trust in the LORD, and sometimes trusting in the LORD requires us to be willing to be taught by His followers.

But, all of this well exceeds the scope of the OP, so I suggest we let it go or start a new thread.

Peace and Grace in Christ.

Wade Smith

6th October 2008, 07:34 PM

I have no idea whether you are called to preach. I don't agree that taking time to study the Bible with more knowledgeable believers constitutes "brainwashing," unless by brainwashing you mean, getting rid of your own preconceived notions of what the Bible teaches and replacing it with an understanding that is based on the actual text and context of the Bible.

Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

You know, it seems to me, a lot more people read the Bible for themselves, even in that day, than you seem to think.

Unfortunately, the organized church of today discourages people from having a brain of their own, and from praying and seeking God for themselves.

Also, the apostle John himself even had at least somewhat of a rebuke for "heirarchical" church behavior in 3 john 9.

"I wrote unto the church, but diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not."

What was going on here?

Simple. Somebody got it in their head that they were the "big cheese" over the congregation and was instituting unscriptural church government, and eventually quit letting anyone else preach or teach, even the apostles.

This is basicly what I observe in almost EVERY organized church I have ever seen above about 50 members. "Only <Insert preacher name here> or someone they select can speak, after signing oaths not to say anything that might 'offend' the pastor, who is often the one who needs to be preached to more than any other; everyone else sit down and shut up and pay tithe."

Personally, I would rather not try to lean on my own understanding, but I would rather trust in the LORD, and sometimes trusting in the LORD requires us to be willing to be taught by His followers.

And who are his followers? People who claim to be his followers?

"Not everyone who says unto me 'lord, lord' will enter in."

The only thing anybody has to protect themself from false doctrine is the Spirit of God plus the written word and common sense.

If you knew what I have learned about churchians in my life, you just might understand my point of view. The devil goes to church on sunday, friend, and he sings amazing grace better than you, I promise.

But as for learning the Bible and also just getting to know the Lord for one's self...

Do you believe these verses?

Gal. 1:11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

1 John 2:20But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

21I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Exodus 4:12
Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.

Exodus 4:15
And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do.

Very Ironic. The preacher who says we must go to a Bible school to be qualified to preach (on wednesday), turns around and preaches from this text on sunday...

Acts 10:34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:...
47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Mark 13:11
But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Numbers 11:23And the LORD said unto Moses, Is the LORD'S hand waxed short? thou shalt see now whether my word shall come to pass unto thee or not.

24And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the LORD, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle.
25And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
26But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.
27And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
28And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them. 29And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!

Rev. 1:3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Not "blessed are you if someone else reads it to you..."

You see, God did not make such promises to the 12 only, nor to the 70 only. His word says, "Whosoever will, let him come..."

And again, the parable says that if you keep knocking, the Lord of the house will open and give you as many loaves as you need(Luke 11:8).

You see, in that parable in luke 11:5-8, the man who is knocking on the door represents a believer. The friend who is on a journey in verse 6 really represents a lost sinner. But in and of himself, the believer has nothing to offer his friend. So he goes and knocks on the Master's door, and the Master is the one who gives the bread, which is the Word of God.

This is why coming to a poor pathetic man is not what God wants for the believer.

He uses it to an extent because many of the sheep are weak and sickly and don't know what to do with themselves. But unfortunately, the "pastors" rarely teach the sheep how to do anything other than bleat and beg, and I might add, because they'd be in real trouble if those sheep actually read the Bible and seek the Lord for themselves. And I'm not just talking about people who teach "false doctrines". I'm even talking about the so-called "good" pastors. They have forgotten their job. It isn't to fill up pews and fleece sheep. Their job is to train the sheep to the point that they no longer need an earthly shepherd.

Heb. 5:12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Some of you sheep need to get sick and tired of being the "pastor's sheep" and start learning how to be the Lord's sheep.

Dies3l

6th October 2008, 07:39 PM

Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

You know, it seems to me, a lot more people read the Bible for themselves, even in that day, than you seem to think.

Unfortunately, the organized church of today discourages people from having a brain of their own, and from praying and seeking God for themselves.

Also, the apostle John himself even had at least somewhat of a rebuke for "heirarchical" church behavior in 3 john 9.

"I wrote unto the church, but diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not."

What was going on here?

Simple. Somebody got it in their head that they were the "big cheese" over the congregation and was instituting unscriptural church government, and eventually quit letting anyone else preach or teach, even the apostles.

This is basicly what I observe in almost EVERY organized church I have ever seen above about 50 members. "Only <Insert preacher name here> or someone they select can speak, after signing oaths not to say anything that might 'offend' the pastor, who is often the one who needs to be preached to more than any other; everyone else sit down and shut up and pay tithe."

And who are his followers? People who claim to be his followers?

"Not everyone who says unto me 'lord, lord' will enter in."

The only thing anybody has to protect themself from false doctrine is the Spirit of God plus the written word and common sense.

If you knew what I have learned about churchians in my life, you just might understand my point of view. The devil goes to church on sunday, friend, and he sings amazing grace better than you, I promise.

But as for learning the Bible and also just getting to know the Lord for one's self...

Do you believe these verses?

Gal. 1:11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

1 John 2:20But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

21I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Exodus 4:12
Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.

Exodus 4:15
And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do.

Very Ironic. The preacher who says we must go to a Bible school to be qualified to preach (on wednesday), turns around and preaches from this text on sunday...

Acts 10:34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:...
47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Mark 13:11
But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Numbers 11:23And the LORD said unto Moses, Is the LORD'S hand waxed short? thou shalt see now whether my word shall come to pass unto thee or not.

24And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the LORD, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle.
25And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
26But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.
27And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
28And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them. 29And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!

Rev. 1:3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Not "blessed are you if someone else reads it to you..."

You see, God did not make such promises to the 12 only, nor to the 70 only. His word says, "Whosoever will, let him come..."

And again, the parable says that if you keep knocking, the Lord of the house will open and give you as many loaves as you need(Luke 11:8).

You see, in that parable in luke 11:5-8, the man who is knocking on the door represents a believer. The friend who is on a journey in verse 6 really represents a lost sinner. But in and of himself, the believer has nothing to offer his friend. So he goes and knocks on the Master's door, and the Master is the one who gives the bread, which is the Word of God.

This is why coming to a poor pathetic man is not what God wants for the believer.

He uses it to an extent because many of the sheep are weak and sickly and don't know what to do with themselves. But unfortunately, the "pastors" rarely teach the sheep how to do anything other than bleat and beg, and I might add, because they'd be in real trouble if those sheep actually read the Bible and seek the Lord for themselves. And I'm not just talking about people who teach "false doctrines". I'm even talking about the so-called "good" pastors. They have forgotten their job. It isn't to fill up pews and fleece sheep. Their job is to train the sheep to the point that they no longer need an earthly shepherd.

Heb. 5:12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Some of you sheep need to get sick and tired of being the "pastor's sheep" and start learning how to be the Lord's sheep.

As I said, we have sidetracked this thread enough. As such, I will allow you to have the final word. I wish you grace and peace in Christ.