Does your Church "sell" you the "Gospel"?

[Wade Smith]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD1x6hAl3og


Freely you have recieved, Freely Give.

[nzguy]

Well it would take me eons to download that utube video to see it.. so I am probably posting ignorantly here but..

we agree with that principle of freely received, freely give and vice versa.. at our church.

We have a bible college we are setting up that will be close to free... (I think there may be a small printing cost, but that is it.)

When we share the gospel with people, we stress that it is a free gift of eternal life.. with no strings attached.. we stress that God will never leave that person and they don't have to do anything to keep their salvation..

we say that this is real love.. a commitment of the will from Jesus Christ to stay faithful to them.. given that he has come into them as the Holy Spirit and sealed them for eternity at the moment they ask Him into their lives to forgive them of sin and give them eternal life.

After this.. it is up to them whether they choose to go to church.. read their bible.. share their faith.. have fellowship with other believers. No have tos.. no compulsion..

it is out of this that we can then freely give.. because we know our salvation is a free gift.

[Artificial Intelligence]

After this.. it is up to them whether they choose to go to church.. read their bible.. share their faith.. have fellowship with other believers. No have tos.. no compulsion..But that would show something of their state of salvation, wouldn't it? Faith without works is a dead faith. Not that one does works to obtain salvation, that is a free gift of God, but once received the individual would undoubtedly be compelled to do such works, especially study, a driving thirst for it. As a new believer, one should want to go to church and meet with other believers. As good stewards, they should be compelled to share their faith, even if with just other believers in depth to give edification, after all there is a true power in the testimony of salvation.

If all those things are not present, then maybe time to share the gospel with them again, help them to feed on the milk if they accept. Because without such works, it does not show that they were really compelled to go the whole way with it, but like growing seeds in the sand that get washed away.

Sorry, didn't view the video, on dial-up atm (for a month or two) and there was no description along with the video.

[nzguy]

Ya I ain't saying that the person who shares with the person leaves them at getting saved and gives nor more guidance or direction to a bible believing church. I am just sayin that if salvation were something along the lines of.. here is a gift .. now you have to mow my lawns.. tend my garden and clean my washing.. that ain't free.. that ain't real love.. that is mixed standards and a God who is dependent on us for His satisfaction.

A person who does get saved, knowing this great love Christ has given them by dwelling in them and forgiving their sins, giving them eternal life.. in theory would then pursue Christianity further.. but sometimes this doesn't happen.. does that mean they weren't saved?

No.. salvation and service are seperate acts.. but it does mean God will discipline, rebuke, and admonish them to follow Him.. and if after God does this.. they are still not following Him.. He won't leave them.. because leaving them.. that is not real love.. that is a God of mixed standards.. who is impatient and doesn't have the capacity to deal with all sins.

[plmarquette]

when the utility companies; banks; furniture and equipment companies furnish a church each month for free ...then you might sell your point....

you drop 40.00 for a movie ...video...dinner; 4-10,000 on a boat and motor, a motorcycle, nascar or nfl memorabelia.... and want to steal from God....

bs in ....guess what....bs out....

[Wade Smith]

when the utility companies; banks; furniture and equipment companies furnish a church each month for free ...then you might sell your point....

you drop 40.00 for a movie ...video...dinner; 4-10,000 on a boat and motor, a motorcycle, nascar or nfl memorabelia.... and want to steal from God....

bs in ....guess what....bs out....


I don't "steal" from God.

I don't own a boat or motocycle or anything like that. Everything everyone in my family owns is for work really, now that i think of it.

Yeah, we own television sets, for watching the news and weather, and the occasional ball game. WE don't have sports memorabelia other than the shirts I wear and my LSU blanket, but no autographed excess crap.


I have NEVER stolen from God, so don't use that line on me buddy.

And the men in that video give to charities and to poor people all the time, and put out free bibles out of their own money that God gave them.

Is that "stealing" from God?

Compare that to your favorite evangelist, who charges up to $100 for a Bible that cost him less than half that to make.


The Bible doesn't say, "Go into all the world and pay televangelists and other people to preach for you."

It says, "Go YE into all the world and preach the Gospel".

Even the so-called "Laity" are supposed to be evangelizing the lost.

I am called to preach, but I have no intentions of ever asking for an offering. If somebody wants to give me something because they believe God moved them to do so, I'll accept it, because it would be an insult not to. But I will stand before the Lord one day, and I have no intention of having to explain "selling" the gospel, or in any way abusing His sheep.

They are not the "preacher's" sheep, they are the Lord's sheep.

watch what Jesus said about this.

Luke 17:10
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.


Nobody "owes" me a darn thing to preach the Gospel. I am commanded to preach to them as an "unprofitable servant". In other words: don't make a gain off the gospel. You are a servant of Christ, a SLAVE of Christ, if so be that he is your Lord and Savior. Unprofitable means just what it says: no net gain off of the gospel.

Paul made tents for a living, and most of the other Apostles had trade jobs. The offering went to widows and the poor, and as I said, occasionally to help them out for a long journey until they got re-established at a new church they were planting.

Also, in those days, they didn't even meet in "church buildings".

They had "church" in people's houses or barns.

Jesus said, "Where two or three are gathered together in my name there I am also in the midst of them."

Read the book of acts, you'll find that they actually had most of their meetings at someone's house. Paul, Peter, and John often went to the temple or synagogue to try to EVANGELIZE the jews, but they were ususally beaten and chased away, and so held "home church".



"Stealing from God" is when a so-called preacher sells teaching cds and books and other things to someone at 600% markup of the cost to make, or sends a "tithe and offering" envelope to you in the mail if you miss church service. Now THAT is coercion and extortion.

"Stealing from God" is when a so-called preacher owns a house that is 5-200 times more valuable than anyone in his congregation, as most in the "prosperity" crowd have.


But a man preaching to some truckers for free in a truck stop and giving them FREE tracts and free bibles out of his own money (here speaking about "Brother Joe", I don't know Jeff and Caroline enough to speak for them, yet,) they aren't stealing from God. They are doing exactly what Jesus said: Freely your received, freely give.

Wow. YOU tell me just how in the world you can claim that is "stealing from God"?



No. You just are so used to seeing what goes on in the apostate church, that you don't even know what "liberty" is when you see it.

[kat69]

uh oh....here we go....

[Dies3l]

I don't "steal" from God.

I don't own a boat or motocycle or anything like that. Everything everyone in my family owns is for work really, now that i think of it.

Yeah, we own television sets, for watching the news and weather, and the occasional ball game. WE don't have sports memorabelia other than the shirts I wear and my LSU blanket, but no autographed excess crap.


I have NEVER stolen from God, so don't use that line on me buddy.

And the men in that video give to charities and to poor people all the time, and put out free bibles out of their own money that God gave them.

Is that "stealing" from God?

Compare that to your favorite evangelist, who charges up to $100 for a Bible that cost him less than half that to make.


The Bible doesn't say, "Go into all the world and pay televangelists and other people to preach for you."

It says, "Go YE into all the world and preach the Gospel".

Even the so-called "Laity" are supposed to be evangelizing the lost.

I am called to preach, but I have no intentions of ever asking for an offering. If somebody wants to give me something because they believe God moved them to do so, I'll accept it, because it would be an insult not to. But I will stand before the Lord one day, and I have no intention of having to explain "selling" the gospel, or in any way abusing His sheep.

They are not the "preacher's" sheep, they are the Lord's sheep.

watch what Jesus said about this.

Luke 17:10
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.


Nobody "owes" me a darn thing to preach the Gospel. I am commanded to preach to them as an "unprofitable servant". In other words: don't make a gain off the gospel. You are a servant of Christ, a SLAVE of Christ, if so be that he is your Lord and Savior. Unprofitable means just what it says: no net gain off of the gospel.

Paul made tents for a living, and most of the other Apostles had trade jobs. The offering went to widows and the poor, and as I said, occasionally to help them out for a long journey until they got re-established at a new church they were planting.

Also, in those days, they didn't even meet in "church buildings".

They had "church" in people's houses or barns.

Jesus said, "Where two or three are gathered together in my name there I am also in the midst of them."

Read the book of acts, you'll find that they actually had most of their meetings at someone's house. Paul, Peter, and John often went to the temple or synagogue to try to EVANGELIZE the jews, but they were ususally beaten and chased away, and so held "home church".



"Stealing from God" is when a so-called preacher sells teaching cds and books and other things to someone at 600% markup of the cost to make, or sends a "tithe and offering" envelope to you in the mail if you miss church service. Now THAT is coercion and extortion.

"Stealing from God" is when a so-called preacher owns a house that is 5-200 times more valuable than anyone in his congregation, as most in the "prosperity" crowd have.


But a man preaching to some truckers for free in a truck stop and giving them FREE tracts and free bibles out of his own money (here speaking about "Brother Joe", I don't know Jeff and Caroline enough to speak for them, yet,) they aren't stealing from God. They are doing exactly what Jesus said: Freely your received, freely give.

Wow. YOU tell me just how in the world you can claim that is "stealing from God"?



No. You just are so used to seeing what goes on in the apostate church, that you don't even know what "liberty" is when you see it.

I think I agree with most of what you actually say. Yes, we should give freely. Yes, the prosperity gospel, as it is taught in America is a sham. Yes, it is indecent when a pastor makes more than an average member of his or her congregation.

But, I (and plm, I think as well) sense that there is a point here under the surface that is alluding to a belief that a church is somehow doing something wrong when she teaches her members what it means to give generously according to the biblical example. Some churches call this tithing, based on the OT example. Some churches call it giving, offering, etc..., but the point is the same; most good churches (and many not so good churches) encourage their members to give generously to support the missions of the church. And, there is absolutrly nothing wrong with this. In fact, I would argue that the church would be neglecting her duty if she did not teach generosity.

As long as the church uses the money it receives appropriately, there is nothing wrong with the church being the beneficiary of its members generosity. Nothing in this world is free. Buildings cost money to buy and maintain. Heat and electricity cost money. Providing ministry to the community costs money. Pastors in most medium to large churches work well over 50 hours per week. They are have an obligation to care for their families, and this costs money. (And I frankly wonder where on earth you come up with your claim that "most of the apostles" did not receive anything from the church. From what I recall, this was a major difference between Paul and the other apostles, and even Paul acknowledges the right of an apostle to be taken care of by the church). I will point out that even in your little video, the Bibles and tracts were not free. Somebody had to pay for them. Perhaps, it was the church members (all 3 of them), or perhaps they were donated (in which case the donor paid for them). So, it would seem that even the illustration that you provide points to the importance of adequately funding your church. This is necessary whether your church has 3 members and meets in a truck stop, or whether it has 10,000 and meets in a traditional church building.

Although your point is taken that, like all things, the doctrine of generous giving can be abused and used to exploit people, this absolutely does not negate the Church's responsibility to teach generosity and giving. God will judge those who use His teachings to exploit others. But, the rest of us continue to have an obligation to give generously and to teach other to do the same.

P.S. If the subtext was untintended, then I apologize for the extended posting. Otherwise, I would like to hear your thoughts.

[Wade Smith]

I think I agree with most of what you actually say. Yes, we should give freely. Yes, the prosperity gospel, as it is taught in America is a sham. Yes, it is indecent when a pastor makes more than an average member of his or her congregation.

But, I (and plm, I think as well) sense that there is a point here under the surface that is alluding to a belief that a church is somehow doing something wrong when she teaches her members what it means to give generously according to the biblical example. Some churches call this tithing, based on the OT example. Some churches call it giving, offering, etc..., but the point is the same; most good churches (and many not so good churches) encourage their members to give generously to support the missions of the church. And, there is absolutrly nothing wrong with this. In fact, I would argue that the church would be neglecting her duty if she did not teach generosity.

As long as the church uses the money it receives appropriately, there is nothing wrong with the church being the beneficiary of its members generosity. Nothing in this world is free. Buildings cost money to buy and maintain. Heat and electricity cost money. Providing ministry to the community costs money. Pastors in most medium to large churches work well over 50 hours per week. They are have an obligation to care for their families, and this costs money. (And I frankly wonder where on earth you come up with your claim that "most of the apostles" did not receive anything from the church. From what I recall, this was a major difference between Paul and the other apostles, and even Paul acknowledges the right of an apostle to be taken care of by the church). I will point out that even in your little video, the Bibles and tracts were not free. Somebody had to pay for them. Perhaps, it was the church members (all 3 of them), or perhaps they were donated (in which case the donor paid for them). So, it would seem that even the illustration that you provide points to the importance of adequately funding your church. This is necessary whether your church has 3 members and meets in a truck stop, or whether it has 10,000 and meets in a traditional church building.

Although your point is taken that, like all things, the doctrine of generous giving can be abused and used to exploit people, this absolutely does not negate the Church's responsibility to teach generosity and giving. God will judge those who use His teachings to exploit others. But, the rest of us continue to have an obligation to give generously and to teach other to do the same.

P.S. If the subtext was untintended, then I apologize for the extended posting. Otherwise, I would like to hear your thoughts.

There are probably a couple hundred people directly affected by that truck stop ministry, but even if it was just "three people", Jesus said, "Where two or three are gathered together in my name there I am also in the midst of them."

The three people you saw are the preachers who preach there on sunday mornings because it is in a location that the one Brother was able to get permission to preach in for two hours on sunday mornings, 20 years ago.

Its all a ministry to the truckers, so there might only be a few in there at a time, but it is different people every week as they happen to be in the area. There is no "members" list, because it is all informal, just like in the Book of Acts. The one brother is "over" everything, but he's the one who started there 20 years ago, and has permission from the truck stop owners (they figured out they get blessed by God by having him there, so they let them use the space for free).

The whole deal is, they will let any qualified speaker preach or teach, but as he says, come with scripture. Generally, it taking turns preaching as the Lord leads people. For several years there was a Baptist minister who participated there as well. I don't know whether he is still there or not, but I think he must be, because I saw that several of the teaching tapes were from a baptist pastor.

It is really "evangelism" in a rather pure sense, because the focus is on preaching the Gospel to people where they are, rather than trying to get them to come to you. There's no gimmicks and no religious heirarchies.

YOu see, and I know this is so "contrary" to traditional "church" concept, but Jesus technically never told anyone to "go into all the world and make church buildings."

He said, "Go into all the world and preach the Gospel."

To me, "mega churches" really shouldn't even exist. By the time a church gets that big, there are lots of people in the congregation qualified to preach and teach, and they aren't allowed to because the "big cheese" and a handful of his closest buddies run everything, and demand that everyone who wants to do anything other than sit on the pew and pay tithe and offering, if they want to do something, must sign all sorts of waivers and oaths and go to their bible school or whatever (sometimes whether or not they are already qualified).


In the book of acts, almost everything was home church, with very little in the synagogues or temples, because the jews tried to kill them every time they met publicly anyway.

There are no "commandments" in the Bible of how to build a "church building" or how it should be operated, because no such thing existed as of the time any of the books were written, and none of the ceremonies from the Old Testament are relevant any more except in a historical context of understanding the cross.

Does God use these "church building" organizations? Absolutely.

Isaiah 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

This tells me that If I go and start reading a Bible on a loud speaker in the middle of Wal-Mart parking lot, that the Word of God is going to do that which it was intended to do: Convict the sinner and point them to Jesus Christ.

The Gospel is still the Gospel whether its preached in a mega church or a corner church or in your living room or in a street or in a miniature theatre in a truck stop.

As far as I can tell, 2 and 3 john are specificly addressed to "house churches", and several other letters, including Luke's Gospel and the Book of Acts, are addressed to just one individual and apparantly their household or house church.


I don't see a problem with small gatherings and loosely organized gatherings.

Some of the greatest works of God I've ever seen or heard of happened in street evangelism and small gatherings, 50 people or less.

"But I am all things to all people"(well, sort of).

If I am attending a mega church, I'll generally respect their way of doing things, but if I see things (abuses) that seem to have no biblical justification, you can be sure I am going to speak to the pastor about it, or write them a letter.

But I do have a problem with mega churches, because they almost inevitably end up under either license or legalism, neither of which are pleasing to God.

[Dies3l]

There are probably a couple hundred people directly affected by that truck stop ministry, but even if it was just "three people", Jesus said, "Where two or three are gathered together in my name there I am also in the midst of them."

The three people you saw are the preachers who preach there on sunday mornings because it is in a location that the one Brother was able to get permission to preach in for two hours on sunday mornings, 20 years ago.

Its all a ministry to the truckers, so there might only be a few in there at a time, but it is different people every week as they happen to be in the area. There is no "members" list, because it is all informal, just like in the Book of Acts. The one brother is "over" everything, but he's the one who started there 20 years ago, and has permission from the truck stop owners (they figured out they get blessed by God by having him there, so they let them use the space for free).

The whole deal is, they will let any qualified speaker preach or teach, but as he says, come with scripture. Generally, it taking turns preaching as the Lord leads people. For several years there was a Baptist minister who participated there as well. I don't know whether he is still there or not, but I think he must be, because I saw that several of the teaching tapes were from a baptist pastor.

It is really "evangelism" in a rather pure sense, because the focus is on preaching the Gospel to people where they are, rather than trying to get them to come to you. There's no gimmicks and no religious heirarchies.

YOu see, and I know this is so "contrary" to traditional "church" concept, but Jesus technically never told anyone to "go into all the world and make church buildings."

He said, "Go into all the world and preach the Gospel."

To me, "mega churches" really shouldn't even exist. By the time a church gets that big, there are lots of people in the congregation qualified to preach and teach, and they aren't allowed to because the "big cheese" and a handful of his closest buddies run everything, and demand that everyone who wants to do anything other than sit on the pew and pay tithe and offering, if they want to do something, must sign all sorts of waivers and oaths and go to their bible school or whatever (sometimes whether or not they are already qualified).


In the book of acts, almost everything was home church, with very little in the synagogues or temples, because the jews tried to kill them every time they met publicly anyway.

There are no "commandments" in the Bible of how to build a "church building" or how it should be operated, because no such thing existed as of the time any of the books were written, and none of the ceremonies from the Old Testament are relevant any more except in a historical context of understanding the cross.

Does God use these "church building" organizations? Absolutely.

Isaiah 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

This tells me that If I go and start reading a Bible on a loud speaker in the middle of Wal-Mart parking lot, that the Word of God is going to do that which it was intended to do: Convict the sinner and point them to Jesus Christ.

The Gospel is still the Gospel whether its preached in a mega church or a corner church or in your living room or in a street or in a miniature theatre in a truck stop.

As far as I can tell, 2 and 3 john are specificly addressed to "house churches", and several other letters, including Luke's Gospel and the Book of Acts, are addressed to just one individual and apparantly their household or house church.


I don't see a problem with small gatherings and loosely organized gatherings.

Some of the greatest works of God I've ever seen or heard of happened in street evangelism and small gatherings, 50 people or less.

"But I am all things to all people"(well, sort of).

If I am attending a mega church, I'll generally respect their way of doing things, but if I see things (abuses) that seem to have no biblical justification, you can be sure I am going to speak to the pastor about it, or write them a letter.

But I do have a problem with mega churches, because they almost inevitably end up under either license or legalism, neither of which are pleasing to God.


The impression I got from the video is that the ministry is small, but that is beside the point. You are right that it does not matter how big a body of believers is. The only thing we have in Scripture dictating the size of a local church is the minimum, which is 2 (from the Scripture you cited above). Although I won't say that I have a problem with mega churches from a theological standpoint, it has been my observation that there seems to be a maximum size at which a church can function well. In other words, churches that exceed 1,000 members or so seem to do a poor job of what the church is called to do. Nonetheless, I know of several so-called "mega churches" that do an exceptional job of assisting smaller churches and ministries. But, like I said, in terms of ministering to the local community, my experience has been that exceptionally large churches don't function well.

So, I agree with you that the mega church mentality (the idea that bigger is better) is problematic, and I agree with you small churches and ministries (even as few as 2 people) can do extraordinary things. But, this thread is about whether or not churches "sell" the gospel, and I am still trying to figure out what you mean by that. Are you suggesting that there is something wrong with churches asking their members to support their ministries financially? Are you suggesting that it is wrong for churches to sell resources to their members? Or am I missing your point entirely?