Orthodox view on masturbation

[Anatoli]

what is the orthodox view of masturbation?


-Anatoli Brokovich

[MariaRegina]

It is considered to be equal to adultery (if you are married); fornication, if you are unmarried.

It is a serious sin that can be overcome with prayer, fasting, and prostrations.

[QuagDabPeg]

If someone commits this sin during his teenage years (as any science book will tell you most boys do) will he be condemned to hell for it?

[MariaRegina]

If someone commits this sin during his teenage years (as any science book will tell you most boys do) will he be condemned to hell for it?

Dear QDP:

If a person knows that it is a serious sin and is unrepentant, then yes, such a sinner could be hell-bound. Only God is the judge here, but this is a serious sin.

[EDIT: we condemn ourselves to hell, and can even begin to suffer the loneliness of hell on earth. God is love and wants to save us, but many times we don't care in the heat of passion and pleasure.]

If it's a bad habit, and it can become that very quickly, then the help of a priest is required. It is spiritual warfare.

An Orthodox Christian priest gave a sermon about a man who struggled with such a sin but he would never confess it - making unworthy confessions all his life. If he had died with all these sins, he could have gone to hell. Finally as he was near death, he called for a priest and made a full life confession.

Afterwards, he told the priest to tell his story to others -- that he had suffered from fear of rejection and pride all these years. These sins had their toll on his life. He regreted not confessing much earler and having to a closer relationship with God.

This man also realized that his relationship with his own children suffered because he could not be open with God through the miinistry of a priest. Likewise, his relationship with his wife suffered. Sin has a cosmic effect. Therefore, there is no such thing as a private sin.

Hope this helps,

Elizabeth, a sinner

[Orthodox Andrew]

Is it really considered serious, Aria? That's not the fedback I got from the Priests I have heard. Could you give some info, please?:)

[Dust and Ashes]

Wow, why didn't someone tell the Masturbation Thread was coming to TAW?!?!? I had to buy my ticket from a scalper at 300% markup! :doh:

[MariaRegina]

Is it really considered serious, Aria? That's not the fedback I got from the Priests I have heard. Could you give some info, please?:)

I went to several retreats on the mystery of Confession. The priest stressed that this very sin keeps a lot of folks away from Communion and failing to confess it causes a lot of problems because they are making unworthy confessions. It's the shame involved which stems from pride.

A bad sinful habit is addictive, whether it is alcoholism, smoking, gambling, or masturbation. These habits are very hard to overcome and so the Church looks at the struggle the person is making. If the person is sincerely trying to ovecome these sins, then the Church is more lenient and will not impose a penance (deny the person Holy Communion). The important thing with all sins is that we accept the grace of God and continually get up and repent after each fall. Are we sorry, have we repented - these are the questions the priest will ask.

It's important, then to always be open with your priest with any habitual sin.

Hope this helps.
Elizabeth

[Akathist]

Orthodox does not have "venial" and "mortal" sins. All sin is a seperation from God and needs to be confessed.

I specialize in working with people who have sexual abberant behavior as a counselor. So, this is an area I have education and experience addressing. Masturbation always involves thoughts (fantasies), even in men. (Remember, women often masterbate as well.) Since the sexual union of husband and wife for the purpose of procreation is the only approved expression of our God given sexuality, you can see that fantasies are not approved. (And please don't try to convince me that every masterbates only about their spouse! I don't buy it. Besides, these fantasies are not about creating a child but about the sexual act seperate from procreation.)

Very often what is initially stimulating stops having much power and different fantasies are invented to be "more stimulating". Often these fantasies become more and more deviant. This could lead to seeking pornagraphy, then on to strip clubs or prostitutes or casual sexual experiences to increase "stimulation". In order to become deviant in the fantasies the person increasing sees the fantasy sexual partner as an object whose only purpose is to give them immediate gratification. When anyone begins to see another human as an object, they are denying the presense of God as He made all people in His image. In addition, no person can physically harm another person unless they first make the other an object.

Hense, the development of rape and child molestation behaviors. (My area of training is in the treatment of these people.) Now, not everyone who masterbates becomes a rapist or child molester. However, all rapist and child molester's admit to frequent masterbation, a great deal of fantasy and almost all of them to the use of pornagraphy. A large number also have casual sexual contacts prior to harming another.

That said, I am still learning about Orthodoxy and from what I have been told by a priest what happens to each person after they die is a Mystery and no one can know for sure the status of their soul or where they will spend eternity except for God. To be safe, please go to confession. (Or put it on your list to discuss at your first confession if you are like me and inquiring and planning on converting.)

[SaintGeorge]

Wow! I wish I would've known this a long time ago! I've always felt ashamed of masterbation, but at school they taught us that it was natural and not to feel guilty about it. They said that it was absolutely fine when done in private! Even my current Baptist church in my opinion expresses neutrality regarding it. I say this because no one at my current church has ever told me that it's wrong!

I've always felt it's wrong though. God, please forgive me for the countless times I've done this sin! Again I've been misled! I've got to get into the Orthodox Church.

Please forgive me and pray for me. With the Holy Spirit's help, I will overcome this.

[Iacobus]

Orthodox does not have "venial" and "mortal" sins. All sin is a seperation from God and needs to be confessed.

I specialize in working with people who have sexual abberant behavior as a counselor. So, this is an area I have education and experience addressing. Masturbation always involves thoughts (fantasies), even in men. (Remember, women often masterbate as well.) Since the sexual union of husband and wife for the purpose of procreation is the only approved expression of our God given sexuality, you can see that fantasies are not approved. (And please don't try to convince me that every masterbates only about their spouse! I don't buy it. Besides, these fantasies are not about creating a child but about the sexual act seperate from procreation.)

Very often what is initially stimulating stops having much power and different fantasies are invented to be "more stimulating". Often these fantasies become more and more deviant. This could lead to seeking pornagraphy, then on to strip clubs or prostitutes or casual sexual experiences to increase "stimulation". In order to become deviant in the fantasies the person increasing sees the fantasy sexual partner as an object whose only purpose is to give them immediate gratification. When anyone begins to see another human as an object, they are denying the presense of God as He made all people in His image. In addition, no person can physically harm another person unless they first make the other an object.

Hense, the development of rape and child molestation behaviors. (My area of training is in the treatment of these people.) Now, not everyone who masterbates becomes a rapist or child molester. However, all rapist and child molester's admit to frequent masterbation, a great deal of fantasy and almost all of them to the use of pornagraphy. A large number also have casual sexual contacts prior to harming another.

That said, I am still learning about Orthodoxy and from what I have been told by a priest what happens to each person after they die is a Mystery and no one can know for sure the status of their soul or where they will spend eternity except for God. To be safe, please go to confession. (Or put it on your list to discuss at your first confession if you are like me and inquiring and planning on converting.)

Good post, TG. The only thing I might try to clarify is that I don't think the Orthodox necessarily feel like sex has to be only for procreation. In fact, my impression is that Orthodoxy tends to be refreshingly earthy, and sexual expression between a husband and wife is not at all constrained, other than during fasting periods. St John Chrysostom wrote:

"I do not of course count marriage among evil things, but rather I praise it exceedingly. For it is the harbor of chastity for those who desire to use it well, and it renders one's nature not to be wild. For like a dam, marriage gives us an opportunity for legitimate intercourse and in this way contains the waves of sexual desire. It places us in a great calm, and watches over us."

(On Virginity, IX.1)

In "The Constitutions of the Holy Apostles", an ante-nicene writing, it is said:

"A husband, therefore, and a wife, when they company together in lawful marriage, and rise from one another, may pray without any observations, and without washings are clean. But whoever corrupts and defiles another man's wife, or is defiled with a harlot, when he arises up from her, even if he should wash himself in the entire ocean and all the rivers, cannot be clean."

:)

James

[QuagDabPeg]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to be it all comes down to repentence. Masturbation is not lesser or graver a sin than any other (since any sin seperates us from God) and it is not that God has a checklist as says "ahp, he masturbated, put him on the Hell list" but just as with any sin, the continuous repatition of the sin ultimately leads us to chose earthly desires over God, and thus leads us to reject God's love.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Good post, TG. The only thing I might try to clarify is that I don't think the Orthodox necessarily feel like sex has to be only for procreation. In fact, my impression is that Orthodoxy tends to be refreshingly earthy, and sexual expression between a husband and wife is not at all constrained, other than during fasting periods. St John Chrysostom wrote:

"I do not of course count marriage among evil things, but rather I praise it exceedingly. For it is the harbor of chastity for those who desire to use it well, and it renders one's nature not to be wild. For like a dam, marriage gives us an opportunity for legitimate intercourse and in this way contains the waves of sexual desire. It places us in a great calm, and watches over us."

(On Virginity, IX.1)

In "The Constitutions of the Holy Apostles", an ante-nicene writing, it is said:

"A husband, therefore, and a wife, when they company together in lawful marriage, and rise from one another, may pray without any observations, and without washings are clean. But whoever corrupts and defiles another man's wife, or is defiled with a harlot, when he arises up from her, even if he should wash himself in the entire ocean and all the rivers, cannot be clean."

:)

JamesI'm very glad you posted this, James. The idea that sex is sinful (within marriage) if procreation is not intended is NOT a traditional Christian belief. Actually, a lot of what some have said sounded very Roman Catholic, as they tend to view marital sex this way.

Also, we need to remember that hell is NOT a place, and God DOES NOT send us there for offending Him. Now, if the Holy Spirit convicts us something continually, and we fail to repent, we put our own souls in danger. But I will not, nor should anyone, condemn all people who commit or struggle with a certain sin.

***EDIT***

The comment I made about that article was irresponsible because I don't remember who wrote it or where it came from. Please disregard the comment. I do not want to mislead anyone! Sorry!

[SaintGeorge]

All in all, it's nobody's business what sins we struggle with

Wait a minute...then what is confession for? Shouldn't we confess our sins? You've lost me here.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

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Wait a minute...then what is confession for? Shouldn't we confess our sins? You've lost me here.
Sorry, Esran. :) Yes, confession with a priest is a good thing. It IS his business. What I meant was that it is not anyone else's business BESIDES your priest/spiritual father.

[Matrona]

Wow! I wish I would've known this a long time ago! I've always felt ashamed of masterbation, but at school they taught us that it was natural and not to feel guilty about it. They said that it was absolutely fine when done in private! Even my current Baptist church in my opinion expresses neutrality regarding it. I say this because no one at my current church has ever told me that it's wrong!

I've always felt it's wrong though. God, please forgive me for the countless times I've done this sin! Again I've been misled! I've got to get into the Orthodox Church.

Please forgive me and pray for me. With the Holy Spirit's help, I will overcome this.
Dear Esran,

Many people are misled about this sin because most churches are unwilling to come out strongly against something this, well, popular. Some rationalize it by saying, "Well, it's better than going out and actually having sex with someone outside of marriage." Physically speaking, that's true, but Jesus said one who even looks at someone lustfully has already committed adultery in his heart. If you ask me, masturbation is one of the most harmful sins in existence. Unless someone has no interest in sex at all, just about everybody does it or has done it or will do it. Yet, unlike outright fornication and adultery, very few people can even bear to speak the name of it out loud. I will bet you a dollar that most of the people in this thread wouldn't be able to say what they said in their posts out loud in a conversation. This shame keeps people from getting spiritual help to overcome it. And because of the cultural taboo on its discussion, the only people who are willing to say the "M-word" out loud are people who don't acknowledge its sinfulness and are actually out to promote it.

See how sneaky Satan is? The adversary has actually used our own recognition of masturbation's sinfulness to badger us into quiet acceptance of it! :cry:

[jkotinek]

This link is to a thread on TexAgs.com and has a very good discussion on this same topic (and includes quite a bit of internet research on the Orthodox perspective):

texags.com/main/forum.reply.asp?forum_id=15&topic_id=330954

[SaintGeorge]

Well, I'll have a lot of confessing to do once I officially join the Church. Wow I've sinned a lot.

What happens if you can't remember some of your sins and thus not confess them? Are you condemned? There's so many of them, how can you remember them all?

Help please!

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

This link is to a thread on TexAgs.com and has a very good discussion on this same topic (and includes quite a bit of internet research on the Orthodox perspective):

texags.com/main/forum.reply.asp?forum_id=15&topic_id=330954
Thanks, Jonathan.:) I hope I didn't come across as condoning masturbation or anything. My main concern was not condemning people to hell for it. I found this bit of wisdom from Bishop Alexander Mileant:

There should be no sexual life outside marriage. It must die out outside family — whether in voluntary celibacy or in solitary life forced by circumstances. The requirements of health here coincide with those of Christianity. Any sexual life outside of marriage, giving only temporary satisfaction, invariably pushes a human being if not onto the way of falsehood, then always onto the way of sin; for this kind of sexual life is the triumph of pure sexuality at the expense of the spiritual side.

Here it is necessary to touch upon the dark sides of sex, which are an infringement against the natural norm. It has already been said earlier, that among the different instincts or inclinations the sexual one is the strongest and the most difficult to control. If it is not restrained, it may degenerate into a fierce lascivious lust, which can cripple a person both spiritually and physically. The reason for this abnormal change is the sinfulness of our nature. Animals are free from this kind of damage. With the fall of the first man the balance between his physical and spiritual powers was lost. Therefore quite natural needs sometimes begin to degenerate into pernicious passions, for example: the need to eat and drink — into gluttony and drunkenness, and an instinct of reproduction — into unguided lust. This is our tragedy, that being put by the Creator as overseers of fauna and as "kings" of it, we often appear to be much worse than unreasonable creatures (Psalm 49:13).

He talks about how sexual fulfillment outside of marriage is a sin against wholeness. There should be no separation between sexuality and Eros.

[Lay down all]

I'm very glad you posted this, James. The idea that sex is sinful (within marriage) if procreation is not intended is NOT a traditional Christian belief. Actually, a lot of what Aria said sounded very Roman Catholic, as they tend to view marital sex this way.

Also, Aria, we need to remember that hell is NOT a place, and God DOES NOT send us there for offending Him. Now, if the Holy Spirit convicts us something continually, and we fail to repent, we put our own souls in danger. But I will not, nor should anyone, condemn all people who commit or struggle with a certain sin.

I actually read something about this a while back and for the life of me can't remember where. A priest was talking about this subject, and he compared it with things like smoking, over-eating, and such. Would it be fair to warn all over-eaters that they are headed for hell? I think not. This particular priest seemed to indicate moderation is key (avoiding habitual behaviors). Now, I'm going to have to figure out where I read that. I'm sure it was a credible source. All in all, it's nobody's business what sins we struggle with, and definitely no one else's call as to whether we are headed for hell.

Of course we should warn overeaters, it's self indulgence seeking fullfillment in food, as in all worldly endulgences keeps us from the true fullfillment, which is the love of God in our hearts.
An overeater needs help as much as a masturbator, and i have struggled with this sin and would find it no use people not condemning it, people should help another who sins out of love, not looking down on them, but being a servant to them of Gods love.

I want my brother to rebuke me, i want to be warned of sin, i want to know sin to avoid it and be helped to overcome it.
I see an excuse for nearly every sin today, and even if it is recognized as sin, they then seems to be a sort of encouragement in it, by saying we love you as you are, forgetting the love of Christ was to free us from sin, He died for our sins, not for us to still be servants of them but free from the bondage they kept us in.
We still love another when they are sinners, for Christ died for us when we were yet sinners, but it wasn't for us to remain such, otherwise His death was in vain.
We also out of love for sinners and our brethren want them to overcome sin, this is love not some evil as the world calls it today.

Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

1Ti 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

[Matrona]

Well, I'll have a lot of confessing to do once I officially join the Church. Wow I've sinned a lot.

What happens if you can't remember some of your sins and thus not confess them? Are you condemned? There's so many of them, how can you remember them all?

Help please!
Aww, Esran... :hug: Confession is a test of your repentance, not a test of your memory! :) We don't confess because God needs to hear us say something in order to erase our sins for us--we confess because it represents our acknowledgement of our sins and that we need help to overcome them.

So if you forget to mention something, the fact that you forgot isn't going to condemn you to hell or get you in trouble with the church. The point is to mention things that you are having trouble with at the present time or that you feel guilty for.

[Matthias]

See, if I ever commited this sin, it would be the hardest thing I'd ever have to admit to God in front of a priest. Especially if you did it a lot and you had to say how many times you did it...

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Of course we should warn overeaters, it's self indulgence seeking fullfillment in food, as in all worldly endulgences keeps us from the true fullfillment, which is the love of God in our hearts.
An overeater needs help as much as a masturbator, and i have struggled with this sin and would find it no use people not condemning it, people should help another who sins out of love, not looking down on them, but being a servant to them of Gods love.

I want my brother to rebuke me, i want to be warned of sin, i want to know sin to avoid it and be helped to overcome it.
I see an excuse for nearly every sin today, and even if it is recognized as sin, they then seems to be a sort of encouragement in it, by saying we love you as you are, forgetting the love of Christ was to free us from sin, He died for our sins, not for us to still be servants of them but free from the bondage they kept us in.
We still love another when they are sinners, for Christ died for us when we were yet sinners, but it wasn't for us to remain such, otherwise His death was in vain.
We also out of love for sinners and our brethren want them to overcome sin, this is love not some evil as the world calls it today.

Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

1Ti 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Of course gluttony is a sin and dangerous to our souls. I never said otherwise. I was only warning about not judging people or becoming self-righteous (we become this way when we focus on everyone else's sins). I don't want to highjack this thread, but I wonder what you think of this: A couple weeks ago I visited another Orthodox parish and the priest there had to way at least 500 lbs. or more. Seriously. Would it have been my place, or anyone else's, to take him aside and tell him how sinful he is for gluttony? I certainly don't think so. I have enough of my own sins to worry about!

That aside, I did edit one of my previous posts on this thread. I don't want people to think that any sin should be taken lightly, and I'm sorry if my post came off that way.

[Lay down all]

Of course gluttony is a sin and dangerous to our souls. I never said otherwise. I was only warning about not judging people or becoming self-righteous (we become this way when we focus on everyone else's sins). I don't want to highjack this thread, but I wonder what you think of this: A couple weeks ago I visited another Orthodox parish and the priest there had to way at least 500 lbs. or more. Seriously. Would it have been my place, or anyone else's, to take him aside and tell him how sinful he is for gluttony? I certainly don't think so. I have enough of my own sins to worry about!

That aside, I did edit one of my previous posts on this thread. I don't want people to think that any sin should be taken lightly, and I'm sorry if my post came off that way.

Maybe it wouldn't have been your place, but i think those of his parish who know him should maybe try to help him, and maybe they do.

I'm sure some do mention it to him and he knows himself.
Doctors may have warned him, i'm sure it's not healthy to be that weight and could even be life threatening.

There are loving ways of rebuking people, without being self righteous and condemning.

Why shouldn't those who love him try to help him.

[MariaRegina]

I know some people who have a serious problem with diabetes and allergies. Food just turns into sugar... and they don't eat that much. Yet they cannot lose weight and they are terribly obese. One woman just got her stomach stabled to control this and died from the operation. We have to pray for these people.

Allergies to foods can cause cravings and horrible blood sugar crashes. I have that problem myself ... I'm not overweight but still it's horrible feeling all sweaty and making incoherent statements.

Lord have mercy.
Elizabeth



Maybe it wouldn't have been your place, but i think those of his parish who know him should maybe try to help him, and maybe they do.

I'm sure some do mention it to him and he knows himself.
Doctors may have warned him, i'm sure it's not healthy to be that weight and could even be life threatening.

There are loving ways of rebuking people, without being self righteous and condemning.

Why shouldn't those who love him try to help him.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

I know some people who have a serious problem with diabetes and allergies. Food just turns into sugar... and they don't eat that much. Yet they cannot lose weight and they are terribly obese. One woman just got her stomach stabled to control this and died from the operation. We have to pray for these people.

Allergies to foods can cause cravings and horrible blood sugar crashes. I have that problem myself ... I'm not overweight but still it's horrible feeling all sweaty and making incoherent statements.

Lord have mercy.
Elizabeth
Yes, I definitely agree! Despite what a lot of diet books say, there are other contributing factors to weight gain/obesity than just overeating. I have a thyroid/autoimmune disease that slows down my metabolism. Losing weight, while not impossible, is a slow and very frustrating process for me. The fatigue is not fun, either. Anyway, this is just one more reason not to make judgements on people who we *think* are sinning in some way (not that you were doing that, Aria :) ).

Oh, and I know of several people who have had that gastric bypass surgery. Three are dead, one came very near to dying and will have life long nutritional deficiencies, and the other also came VERY close to dying as a result of complications. You don't hear many of the horror stories in all the magazine articles praising that surgery.

SORRY......I think I have sufficiently highjacked this thread after all....:doh:

[jkotinek]

I hope I didn't come across as condoning masturbation or anything. My main concern was not condemning people to hell for it.Oh, not at all. My posting the link is simply selfish on my part. I didn't want to copy/paste it all over here, and I would welcome more Orthodox participation on my "home" board.
I found this bit of wisdom from Bishop Alexander Mileant:
He talks about how sexual fulfillment outside of marriage is a sin against wholeness. There should be no separation between sexuality and Eros.
Absolutely agree. That is one of the points I try to explain on the linked thread: that misplaced sexual desire is a result of the Fall and corruption.

[Lay down all]

I know some people who have a serious problem with diabetes and allergies. Food just turns into sugar... and they don't eat that much. Yet they cannot lose weight and they are terribly obese. One woman just got her stomach stabled to control this and died from the operation. We have to pray for these people.

Allergies to foods can cause cravings and horrible blood sugar crashes. I have that problem myself ... I'm not overweight but still it's horrible feeling all sweaty and making incoherent statements.

Lord have mercy.
Elizabeth

But glutony is still glutony and should be preached as such, i beleive that is what was being being refered to as if we should rebuke another for their sin, of which we should out of love not hate.

We see the hold sin has over people, for it once had it over us, and there may be still some things we struggle with, but if these things are not condemned then how much easier is it to give in to such ecspecailly with so many condoning so much today.

I'm a bit lost now, what is being said is masturbation to be condemned or not, if one amongst our congregation speaks of it as good and not sinful are we not to rebuke them out of love?

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

I'm a bit lost now, what is being said is masturbation to be condemned or not, if one amongst our congregation speaks of it as good and not sinful are we not to rebuke them out of love?
I think we could safely come to the conclusion that based on the writings of the Church Fathers, as well as Biblical principles, it is a sin. It is a self-centered practice, a perverted use of something for self-gratification only. This is not conducive to theosis, which basically means to become like Christ. This is not an easy concept to accept if you are exposed to worldly psychology and physiological theories (and we all are, on a daily basis through the media).

[MariaRegina]

.

Yes, I definitely agree! Despite what a lot of diet books say, there are other contributing factors to weight gain/obesity than just overeating. I have a thyroid/autoimmune disease that slows down my metabolism. Losing weight, while not impossible, is a slow and very frustrating process for me. The fatigue is not fun, either. Anyway, this is just one more reason not to make judgements on people who we *think* are sinning in some way (not that you were doing that, Aria :) ).

Oh, and I know of several people who have had that gastric bypass surgery. Three are dead, one came very near to dying and will have life long nutritional deficiencies, and the other also came VERY close to dying as a result of complications. You don't hear many of the horror stories in all the magazine articles praising that surgery.

SORRY......I think I have sufficiently highjacked this thread after all....:doh:

Actually, you haven't hijacked the thread at all as lust and gluttony go together. Our Lord said that certain demons could only be cast out by prayer and fasting and I am quite sure he was referring to the two twin demons of lust and gluttony.

Anyway, some of the movies I had to watch in college classes were just too sexually explicit. I won't go into details, but they were an opening the devil used to tempt me. The struggle I went through to purge those thoughts from my mind was heroic and finally the priest had to say two prayers of exorcism from the Orthodox book of prayers. It was effective.

From my past experiences, therefore, I can tell you that whenever I had overindulged at the local soup-and-salad all-you-can-eat eatery commonly referred to as "Gluttony Palace" in our parish, I usually had terrible sexual temptations and demonic dreams. The two (gluttony and lust) went together. I had to learn to only take one plate and no seconds or else, it seemed like the demons were just waiting for me. Then I would have to stay up all night in prayer, just to get bad thoughts out of my mind. I also stayed away from R-rated movies and had to practice custody of the eyes with all the terrible Las Vegas ad boards here in L.A. Thinking of a purple elephant just didn't work. Making 40 prostrations did help along with saying the Jesus Prayer. I also was told not to eat meat after 3 p.m. because the l-carnitine in meats is known to be a stimulant. I did this with the blessings of my priest.

Incidentally, that is probably why young monks are given an obedience of saying the Jesus Prayer while making about 100 to 300 prostrations per day. Also monastics avoid any meat - except salmon or fish on feast days.

Hope this helps

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Wow, I never thought much about it before, but it does make sense that the two would be related (lust and gluttony). Two sides of the same coin, really. Both have to do with satisfying the flesh at the expense of the soul. Hmm, lots of food for thought.....and prayer!;)

[Akathist]

To clarify, I guess when I wrote that sexual relations in marriage is only for procreation purposes I was thinking of the teaching of the RCC. I know better than that and lost my mind for a minute.

I was trying to convey however, that sexual behavior needs to be contained to marriage and related to the health of marriage.

And that masterbation is a sin that can lead to objectification of others and to other sins.

(And I am very guilty of glutteny and to lustful thoughts.)

By the way, off subject: I thought that before I am Chrismated (spelling?) I had to do a confession in which I attempt to the best of my knowledge to report all of my sins. Is that correct?

[MariaRegina]

To clarify, I guess when I wrote that sexual relations in marriage is only for procreation purposes I was thinking of the teaching of the RCC. I know better than that and lost my mind for a minute.

I was trying to convey however, that sexual behavior needs to be contained to marriage and related to the health of marriage.

And that masterbation is a sin that can lead to objectification of others and to other sins.

(And I am very guilty of glutteny and to lustful thoughts.)

By the way, off subject: I thought that before I am Chrismated (spelling?) I had to do a confession in which I attempt to the best of my knowledge to report all of my sins. Is that correct?

Yes, a full-life confession is made on the day of Chrismation or the evening preceeding it. Don't worry, God will give you the necessary grace and you don't have to add up all the times that you failed in one area. However, you should tell the priest if it is a habit or just a one time failing.

We bring all our sins to Christ with the priest as a witness. The priest is there to help us so that we hopefully won't repeat these sins again.

There is an excellent little booklet written by Father Thomas Hopko on Confession. Your priest probably has some if you want one. Just ask him.

Lovingly yours in Christ,
Elizabeth

[isshinwhat]

I guess when I wrote that sexual relations in marriage is only for procreation purposes I was thinking of the teaching of the RCC.

This is a popular misconception. The Catholic Church does not teach that the sexual union between a man and a woman is for procreation alone, only that such a union must be open to conception.

God Bless,

Neal

2361 "Sexuality, by means of which man and woman give themselves to one another through the acts which are proper and exclusive to spouses, is not simply something biological, but concerns the innermost being of the human person as such. It is realized in a truly human way only if it is an integral part of the love by which a man and woman commit themselves totally to one another until death." 143 (http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/getnote.cfm?ParNum=2361&FNoteNum=143)


Tobias got out of bed and said to Sarah, "Sister, get up, and let us pray and implore our Lord that he grant us mercy and safety." So she got up, and they began to pray and implore that they might be kept safe. Tobias began by saying, "Blessed are you, O God of our fathers. . . . You made Adam, and for him you made his wife Eve as a helper and support. From the two of them the race of mankind has sprung. You said, 'It is not good that the man should be alone; let us make a helper for him like himself.' I now am taking this kinswoman of mine, not because of lust, but with sincerity. Grant that she and I may find mercy and that we may grow old together." And they both said, "Amen, Amen." Then they went to sleep for the night. 144 (http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/getnote.cfm?ParNum=2361&FNoteNum=144)



2362 "The acts in marriage by which the intimate and chaste union of the spouses takes place are noble and honorable; the truly human performance of these acts fosters the self-giving they signify and enriches the spouses in joy and gratitude." 145 (http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/getnote.cfm?ParNum=2362&FNoteNum=145) Sexuality is a source of joy and pleasure:

The Creator himself . . . established that in the [generative] function, spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and spirit. Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment. They accept what the Creator has intended for them. At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation. 146 (http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/getnote.cfm?ParNum=2362&FNoteNum=146)

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Thanks, Neal. I have some family members who are devout RC and have indicated they believed it was sin if not for procreation. I assumed it was something that the RCC taught. Sorry! Is this something that the RCC stance has changed over time, like with Vatican II?

[BlestVessel]

Well, I'll have a lot of confessing to do once I officially join the Church. Wow I've sinned a lot.

What happens if you can't remember some of your sins and thus not confess them? Are you condemned? There's so many of them, how can you remember them all?

Help please!

Esran, I don't know if anyone's said this and I don't have enough time to read through all of the posts in this thread.
When a thirty-year old accepts the Lord Jesus and repents of sin, that doesn't mean they must recall every previous sin to accept forgiveness.
Now that you know this is a sin, I'm certain you've repented (been grieved in your heart, developed a hatred for the sin, apologized, and in determination chose to replace holiness with what was once wicked, and trusting Christ's blood has covered it over and made you new).
God doesn't condemn us for that which we don't know, but calls us to a higher wisdom in order that we know-to a degree-both the heights of His good ways and the depths of our blackened ways in the flesh so that we will turn from what we once thought good when we were deceived.
Most fortunately, you are knowing the Lord in new ways and can ask Him and trust Him to reveal habitual and unintentional sin to you. With the Holy Spirit in you, you'll feel a tug whenever you are set to commit sin, and can verify by Scripture.
Remember, God desires we live a holy life as much as we do, so He'll enable you. Don't be anxious or worry, but rest in Him and He'll lead you into all righteousness, just keep up pursuit. :)

[ShiFuBill]

What is the Orthodox opinion of mutual masterbation and oral sex within marriage?

[Oblio]

When a thirty-year old accepts the Lord Jesus and repents of sin, that doesn't mean they must recall every previous sin to accept forgiveness.


No, but prior to joining His Holy Orthodox Church, one must make a sincere effort to recall their sins from youth until the present day and confess them to Christ in the presence of a priest. This is done for the healing of ones soul. While difficult and draining, it is IMO one of the most freeing and liberating experiences that you will ever experience.

[isshinwhat]

Is this something that the RCC stance has changed over time, like with Vatican II?

You are welcome. The Church, herself, has not changed her opinion. A lot of the popular misconceptions concerning the Catholic Church come from theologians making private theological judgments and as they grow more popular, people forgetting that they are private theological statements and not those of the Church. Purgatory being a place, for example. The Church has never said such a "place" exists, leaving open the possibility that it is more of a state of being after death.

May the Lord bless you and keep you strong in your Faith.

Neal

[MariaRegina]

What is the Orthodox opinion of mutual masterbation and oral sex within marriage?


My Orthodox Priest and others (when on retreat) have said that this behavior is unbecoming of true Christians. Foreplay is allowed, however.

[jkotinek]

What is the Orthodox opinion of mutual masterbation and oral sex within marriage?
This, like the topic of masturbation in general, isn't something that you're likely to find treatises written on. ;)

To extend Aria's answer a bit (if that isn't too presumptuous),consider the theology expressed in marriage, that it should be a reflection of the relationship of the Trinity: two distinct persons in an insoluble relationship. The kind of love that should be expressed is unselfish and completing. The sex act, as the physical expression of that relationship, would necessarily not be individual, but cooperative. To be somewhat base, both parties should be experiencing fulfillment and genuine love for the other--not a fetishized fantasy or exotic objectification. Without getting into specifics of what is allowed or not allowed, I think that is a good guideline, as it would also be relevant to misuse of sex even in traditional modes of intercourse.

[MariaRegina]

This, like the topic of masturbation in general, isn't something that you're likely to find treatises written on. ;)

To extend Aria's answer a bit (if that isn't too presumptuous),consider the theology expressed in marriage, that it should be a reflection of the relationship of the Trinity: two distinct persons in an insoluble relationship. The kind of love that should be expressed is unselfish and completing. The sex act, as the physical expression of that relationship, would necessarily not be individual, but cooperative. To be somewhat base, both parties should be experiencing fulfillment and genuine love for the other--not a fetishized fantasy or exotic objectification. Without getting into specifics of what is allowed or not allowed, I think that is a good guideline, as it would also be relevant to misuse of sex even in traditional modes of intercourse.

Good answer.

[isshinwhat]

I agree, very good answer.

[Filia Mariae]

I'm very glad you posted this, James. The idea that sex is sinful (within marriage) if procreation is not intended is NOT a traditional Christian belief. Actually, a lot of what some have said sounded very Roman Catholic, as they tend to view marital sex this way.

Catholics do not view marital sex as sinful, but as an image of the relationship between Christ and the Church. Please do not misrepresent our beliefs. Thank you.

[Oblio]

Catholics do not view marital sex as sinful, but as an image of the relationship between Christ and the Church. Please do not misrepresent our beliefs. Thank you.

To be fair, there are Catholics who believe this, GDE stated as such and Neal has cleared up that it is not the belief of your Church. Jumping in with accusations of misrepresentation is unecessary, especially after an apology was made.

I have some family members who are devout RC and have indicated they believed it was sin if not for procreation. I assumed it was something that the RCC taught. Sorry! Is this something that the RCC stance has changed over time, like with Vatican II?

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Thanks, Oblio.:)

While sex is not meant for ONLY for procreation, children should be the natural consequence of it. It is the natural order of things. You can't exactly have children as a result of oral sex. It also seems like a selfish act IMO.

Wow...........this might be starting to get a little too graphic for me....:blush: I guess it's better to ask about these things rather than live in ignorance or deception, though.

[Filia Mariae]

To be fair, there are Catholics who believe this,
There are also Orthodox who believe this. There are Jews who believe this. There are Muslims and Hindus who believe this. When I refer to what any religious group believes, I refer to their actual teaching and not the vast spectrum of beliefs which nominal members of that group may hold as it causes less confusion.

GDE stated as such and Neal has cleared up that it is not the belief of your Church. Jumping in with accusations of misrepresentation is unecessary, especially after an apology was made.
I did not see that exchange. I apologize.

[galapogos]

I don't think it should be a sin...

I mean these are just natural urges...

[ShiFuBill]

Catholics do not view marital sex as sinful, but as an image of the relationship between Christ and the Church. Please do not misrepresent our beliefs. Thank you.


I just finished reading Introduction to the Devout Life by St. Francis de Sales. He said that only holy marriage covers up the sin of sex. It was pretty clear that he felt it was sin but that marriage sanctified it. I doubt many hold that opinion today, but that is the history.

[MariaRegina]

Yeah, good old St. Augustine

When you read his Confessions you understand why.

[Rising_Suns]

Orthodox does not have "venial" and "mortal" sins. All sin is a seperation from God and needs to be confessed.

Just for clarification, all venial and mortal sins are separation from God as well and need to be confessed.

[BlestVessel]

Oblio, can you tell me where this is written in Scripture? That we must effort to search our past for sin? A person can sin 5-50 times a day, in heart, in thought, in deed, in lack of deed, how is a memory to recall this? From what I know of Scripture, it says "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" and the saved are adopted sons and daughters, members of the bodies of Christ. The Holy Spirit reveals things from the past that need to be resolved, that's part of His purpose in us, to help us and correct us. Yet He doesn't drill our minds, expect us to set aside days and weeks to recount the past, no, we're to trust in HIS work in us and cooperate accordingly. This recalling to memory is indicative of a lack of faith, or so it appears to me.

[Matthias]

I wouldn't be too hasty in your opinion. Plus, why does everything HAVE to be in the Bible? The Bible is ultimately open to interpretation. I've found that posting passages from the Bible can cause debates, and whatnot, so I tend to keep away from posting passages from the Bible to back up my beliefs or the beliefs of a specific denomination.

How about the idea of being baptised? There are numerous passages in the Bible on the theme of being baptised and the consequences of not doing so; it's how someone interprets them that matters. Burt might interpret a certain passage as saying this, George might interpret it as saying something else, and Doug might not agree with either of them.

Oblio can post the passages from the Bible for you; the question is if you will believe them to mean what us Orthodox believe them to mean...

[Matthias]

Call me stupid, but I thought the idea of sex was to create offspring? Why on earth would a church of any denomination allow the use of condoms and birth control? Surely, God made us able to have sex to have OFFSPRING; and nothing else?

Honestly, I can't see a reason for sex other than to have children. I must be old fashioned...

[Matthias]

Honestly, I mean no offence to anyone, I am really curious though. Why is sex allowed in certain churches, for the purpose of enjoyment, and not to make offspring?

[Rising_Suns]

From a Catholic standpoint, sex within marriage is meant to be both procreative and unitive; procreative, in the sense that the couple must always be open to new life. And unitive, in the sense that it is an expression of love and a divine reflection of the unity of the spousal relationship between Christ and the Church.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

From a Catholic standpoint, sex within marriage is meant to be both procreative and unitive; procreative, in the sense that the couple must always be open to new life. And unitive, in the sense that it is an expression of love and a divine reflection of the unity of the spousal relationship between Christ and the Church.
I agree, and from what I've read so far Orthodox teaching would support this. Only thing is that the unitive aspect of it leaves some grey area where other sex acts are concerned. One could still claim that love and unity are shared (as well as mutual satisfaction) in non-procreative sex acts. I really don't know the answer to this.

[Oblio]

Oblio, can you tell me where this is written in Scripture? That we must effort to search our past for sin? A person can sin 5-50 times a day, in heart, in thought, in deed, in lack of deed, how is a memory to recall this?


We are called to confess our sins and repent. These commandments are throughout Scripture both in example and as a directive. If we do not search and examine our heart completely, how can we be expected to change it's direction (metanoia or what is translated as repent is literally the change of the nous, or the heart. We must examine thoroughly that which we wish to change) ?? The memory recalls what it can, as we progress further towards theosis, the mind becomes more adapt at recalling that which is counter to God's will, that is sin, for it is counter to that which it is progressing towards.

From what I know of Scripture, it says "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" and the saved are adopted sons and daughters, members of the bodies of Christ.
[quote]

... And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
(Acts 16:32)

Now the question is, what is [b]the word of the Lord[b] ?

[quote]
The Holy Spirit reveals things from the past that need to be resolved, that's part of His purpose in us, to help us and correct us. Yet He doesn't drill our minds, expect us to set aside days and weeks to recount the past, no, we're to trust in HIS work in us and cooperate accordingly. This recalling to memory is indicative of a lack of faith, or so it appears to me.

Perhaps you misunderstand, this life confession is a one time event, prior to Baptism/Chrismation. It is in some ways similar yet more exhaustive than the impromptu confessions given by Evangelicals at 'altar calls'. Later confessions are prepared for with only a search of the recent past (perhaps similar to repeat responses to altar calls). His work in us is precisely that, to help us to see with new eyes that where we fall short, and with a new tongue confess those things to Him. I fail to see how this is indicative of a lack of faith.

With all respect, the idea that we just trust in His work and go along for the ride so to speak with a simple sinners prayer (a general confession) and the Bible under your arm is a modern Protestant idea and has no basis in Christianity.

[Rising_Suns]

One could still claim that love and unity are shared (as well as mutual satisfaction) in non-procreative sex acts.

Then from the Catholic Church's standpoint, this would be disordered against God's will, since sex must be both procreative and unitive, not either or.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Then from the Catholic Church's standpoint, this would be disordered against God's will, since sex must be both procreative and unitive, not either or.
Makes sense. What if the couple is infertile? Does that mean they're not suppose to have "relations"?

[Oblio]

Then from the Catholic Church's standpoint, this would be disordered against God's will, since sex must be both procreative and unitive, not either or.

So does that mean that catholics believe that sex, for purposes other than procreation is sinful. This seems to fly counter to Carly's assertion that the Church does not teach that sex for purposes other than procreation is sinful. :confused:

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

So does that mean that catholics believe that sex, for purposes other than procreative is sinful. This seems to fly counter to Carly's assertion that the Church does not teach that sex for purposes other than procreation is sinful. :confused:
You're right. The more I think about that statement, the more I realize that it doesn't line up with the previous statements about the Catholic stance.

[isshinwhat]

The key phrase is "open to conception." That doesn't have to be the primary reason for intercourse every time a couple is intimate, but the sexual union must not be separated into parts, so to speak. It must be kept corporate. Non-procreative acts, when brought to completion, keep the emotionally unitative and pleasurable aspects of the union, but they are not "open to conception." This is a disordered reflection of the unselfish, creative love that marital relations signify. To quote a wonderful statement made by one of your Orthodox brothers on page five, "it should be a reflection of the relationship of the Trinity: two distinct persons in an insoluble relationship. The kind of love that should be expressed is unselfish and completing. The sex act, as the physical expression of that relationship, would necessarily not be individual, but cooperative."

In the case of a couple who are infertile, they are still open to conception. They are not providing a barrier to the sexual union, though their openness may never bear fruit.

God Bless,

Neal

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

The key phrase is "open to conception." That doesn't have to be the primary reason for intercourse every time a couple is intimate, but the sexual union must not be separated into parts, so to speak. It must be kept corporate. Non-procreative acts, when brought to completion, keep the emotionally unitative and pleasurable aspects of the union, but they are not "open to conception." This is a disordered reflection of the unselfish, creative love that marital relations signify. To quote a wonderful statement made by one of your Orthodox brothers on page five, "it should be a reflection of the relationship of the Trinity: two distinct persons in an insoluble relationship. The kind of love that should be expressed is unselfish and completing. The sex act, as the physical expression of that relationship, would necessarily not be individual, but cooperative."

In the case of a couple who are infertile, they are still open to conception. They are not providing a barrier to the sexual union, though their openness may never bear fruit.

God Bless,

NealGood answer. Allthough, in the Orthodox Church anyway, the priest can give a couple permission (not sure what the proper term is) to use certain types of birth control in special circumstances (probably only NFP or barrier methods). This is only for isolated circumstances like lack of financial means to have a child, or health reasons, or to space out births. In this case, the procreation part of it is taken "off the table", so to speak. For all you Orthodox folks, would a priest tell you to stop having sex if you weren't trying for a baby?

[Oblio]

For all you Orthodox folks, would a priest tell you to stop having sex if you weren't trying for a baby?


I do not think so.

As in all things, we are to strive for an emptying of our selfish desires and maximising our love for others within the will of God. Non-procreative sex can accomplish either of these ends depending on our hearts. The implementation details in the lives of specific Christians are left to the couple and their spiritual father.

[BlestVessel]

The Bible gives the principles of our Lord. If a statement can't be supported by or align with the written Word of God which He gave to all mankind, then why would we believe it?


With all respect, the idea that we just trust in His work and go along for the ride so to speak with a simple sinners prayer (a general confession) and the Bible under your arm is a modern Protestant idea and has no basis in Christianity.
I was not at all suggesting we do not fully repent of the sins we commit, yet in the case of one receiving our Lord, when the truth has been supressed in an individual a great length of time and they formerly denied what was right vs. what was wrong, it seems monotonous and unuseful to review one's lifetime of sins. It is both faith and action, yes, but where does He ask of us THIS action? As believers, daily, we acknowledge and come to full repentance of our sins, but prior to that, are we not to simply trust the Lord to shed the old self and walk into His abundant mercies for all we can't recall? There isn't any conceivable way one can remember every sin committed over the course of a single year, let alone many, so aren't we to trust Him to work in us using our past, rather than pretend that we can do a good work in ourselves? In no way do I want to be slothful as many who claim to be Christians in North America, but I'm concerned that this is not accepting the grace of Christ in fullness. He accepted the man on the cross next to Him because of what was in his heart, he knew he'd been wrong and asked Christ to remember Him in His Kingdom. If it is necessary for us to remember, I truly believe that God is faithful to bring it to recollection or to work it in us, even without our knowing. To suggest He won't or can't unless we go backward is where I was concerned there might be a lack in faith in this belief.


....how can we be expected to change it's direction......
We cannot. Only our Lord can change a person, we are dust without Him. We do not change us, but we pursue Him and in Him is the resurrecting power, the forgiveness, the mercy and grace, and the transforming powers which we seek in order to glorify Him. He who began a good work in us WILL be faithful to complete it. Religiosity suggests we can become righteous through our own efforts, by our own zeal, but our God asks of us not that we strive to live, but to die to ourselves, to surrender, to succumb to His dealings, to rest in Him and His sufficiency. This does not mean we do nothing but rest, this means we live in His strength and by His efforts, and He knows already every single thing we have and have not done. So why fret and concern yourself by what is covered by the Blood? Is His power and strength not enough that He can cleanse us from all these?

I realize I'm in a bit of a debate mode and don't mean to offend at all. It is GOOD for us to exhort one another and brothers and sisters are to encourage each other in the things of our Lord and call each other to His principles. So if I offend you, I apologize. I am aimed at getting at the root of this disagreement. Whether I am mistaken or you are is irrelevant, but the truth is our cause and purpose.

Much Love,
April

[Orthodox Andrew]

The Bible gives the principles of our Lord. If a statement can't be supported by or align with the written Word of God which He gave to all mankind, then why would we believe it?

Does 10 X 10 not equal 100? Does the earth not revolve around the sun? Does gravity not exist?

My point is that many truths exist that are not mentioned in the Bible.:)

[Matrona]

Does 10 X 10 not equal 100? Does the earth not revolve around the sun? Does gravity not exist?

My point is that many truths exist that are not mentioned in the Bible.:)
She's talking about SPIRITUAL truths, not scientific and mathematic truths.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

The Bible gives the principles of our Lord. If a statement can't be supported by or align with the written Word of God which He gave to all mankind, then why would we believe it?

April
The Christian Church (Orthodoxy) is not sola scriptura, meaning that we do not rely on the Bible ALONE as our only written source of guidance. Many, many important Church traditions have been handed down to us from holy men and women of God. These traditions do not oppose the the truth given to us in the Bible, but they are inspired by the Holy Spirit and therefore necessary for God's people to grow and become more Christ-like. What Andreas said is true. The Bible is only a small portion of what the Church has given us.

[MariaRegina]

Somewhere in the New Testament it states:

Confess your sins to one another.

And then there are the famous words of Jesus:

Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven,
Whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

How does the church know what sins to forgive, and what sins to retain? if we con't confess them all.

[Orthodox Andrew]

She's talking about SPIRITUAL truths, not scientific and mathematic truths.
Define spirtual truths?

Does not all truth matter? If the Bible says the earth is flat, and we believe in sola scripture, how do we understand that verse if we do not understand it by using outside means?

[Orthodox Andrew]

She's talking about SPIRITUAL truths, not scientific and mathematic truths.And some Protestants deny evolution on the grounds of the statement she just made.

[isshinwhat]

As in all things, we are to strive for an emptying of our selfish desires and maximising our love for others within the will of God. Non-procreative sex can accomplish either of these ends depending on our hearts. The implementation details in the lives of specific Christians are left to the couple and their spiritual father.

Oblio,

I have read many texts by the Fathers which state the opposite of what you have said, Latin and Byzantine. Do you have any references which mention allowing non-creative sex. This is a serious, non-accusatory question for those who are not familiar with me.

God Bless,

Neal

[Matthias]

I'm 100% with you Andreas. All truth matters, spiritual, scientific, and mathematic. Matrona, not everything is about spirituality, you know...

[Orthodox Andrew]

I'm 100% with you Andreas. All truth matters, spiritual, scientific, and mathematic. Matrona, not everything is about spirituality, you know...
Thanks, Matthias.:)

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Well, some of the problem is that there really are a great number of spiritual truths in the Bible (obviously) that the sola scriptura people don't even know about because the protestants only use a chopped up version of the Bible. Things like praying for the dead, for example, are only talked about in Maccabees, which is deuterocannonical, right? [or apocryphal] So sola scriptura folks are only basing their opinions on a portion of the scriptures. So really, I guess you should say "sola parta scriptura" (I added the "a" on the end for continuity).;) ^_^

[Matrona]

Define spirtual truths?

Does not all truth matter? If the Bible says the earth is flat, and we believe in sola scripture, how do we understand that verse if we do not understand it by using outside means?I don't object to rejecting sola scriptura, I object to your inappropriate response to BlestVessel's post.

She was asking why should we believe in things having to do with God that are not mentioned in the Bible, "having to do with God" being implied. It is a good and worthy question for us coming from a person of the Protestant perspective. In the absence of valid Holy Tradition and valid apostolic succession, sola scriptura is a natural and reasonable practice.

To this day I am grateful that when I posed this question as an inquirer myself, my friend behaved kindly and respectfully towards me, and he didn't fire off some quickie non sequitur, vaguely condescending remark. Instead, he gave me a thorough explanation of Orthodox Holy Tradition and apostolic succession.

[Orthodox Andrew]

I don't object to rejecting sola scriptura, I object to your inappropriate response to BlestVessel's post.

She was asking why should we believe in things having to do with God that are not mentioned in the Bible, "having to do with God" being implied. It is a good and worthy question for us coming from a person of the Protestant perspective. In the absence of valid Holy Tradition and valid apostolic succession, sola scriptura is a natural and reasonable practice.

I guess God didn't create the sun? And I guess gravity has nothing to do with God?

[Matrona]

I guess God didn't create the sun? And I guess gravity has nothing to do with God?
Of course He has plenty to do with both of those things, but neither of those things has to do with Christian doctrine, things like whether or not we should baptize infants or whether Mary remained a virgin forever.

[Orthodox Andrew]

Of course He has plenty to do with both of those things, but neither of those things has to do with Christian doctrine, things like whether or not we should baptize infants or whether Mary remained a virgin forever.
There are plenty of people that reject all serious things that are not in the Bible, if they feel it hurts their interpretation. Remember Galileo and the Pope? All things are relevant. Not just what we designate as spiritual, and non-spiritual

[Matthias]

Hear hear!