justification by faith alone?

[Athanasias]

I would like to propose a offer to my goodhearted non-Catholic brothers in Christ to do a formal debate on Sola Fide or justification by faith alone. This debate first and foremost must be between myself and a solid protestant Christian of the mainstream protestant denominations. The protestant Christian must not be anti-Catholic! This is very important. As I Catholic I have many protestant friends and I and my church are not anti-protestant. I do not beleive that protestants are going to hell because of their faith etc. I do not judge their souls. I believe they have Jesus and much truth and he is their savior. So I expect to debate a civil person of the protestant understanding of Christianity who also views the same towards Catholicism and faithful Catholics.

The person I will debate must be a mainstream(Lutheran, Baptist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal etc etc.. ) faithful knowledgeable protestant (Not LDS or Jw or someone else who is not sure of what they believe). The person must also have a strong understanding of their protestant faith and love Jesus(as almost every one I have met does). They also must consider the Catholic faith to be Christian and not a cult. I had debated people like this in the past and it doesn't work well in dialog.

The debate can be up to 5000 words a post.

It will go at least 3 rounds Possibly 4.

Up to 2 weeks to respond to each response.


This debate must be friendly and prayerful!

God bless you!

Athanasias

[MrPolo]

Won't this debate only last 1 sentence?

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Athanasias]

Won't this debate only last 1 sentence?

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

LOL. I understand what you mean! Great passage But there is alot more to it than that theologically and biblically speaking. There is a "qualified sense"(which is in accordance to the council of Trent and Catholic theology) in which Catholics can say we are justified by faith alone . Much much scripture needs to be looked at. God bless you!:liturgy:

[mark kennedy]

I would be interested, justification by faith is one of my central doctrines. First, a little information about myself. I'm an evangelical and I have attended the Church of Christ (they have really good Bible studies), a number of Pentecostal and Baptist churches and currently I attend a little Baptist church down the road a ways. I have studied the Bible and I have a passion for Christian apologetics and I have spent a lot of time on the Creation/evolution thing.

I believe in justification by grace through faith apart from works even though I am well aware that justification is never alone. For instance, James is discussing the mistreatment of Christians in their own fellowship a treatment not unlike the depriving of the poor at the love feasts in Corinth. It's important to realize that justification and righteousness are the same word in the New Testament, it simply means just, fair and right. James is not saying that in order to be saved you have to do good works, what he is saying is that believers must bear fruit. James isn't talking about justification being imputed through faith he is talking about the ongoing sanctification process that is initiated by faith with righteousness being the effect.

Remember the parable of the servant who was forgiven a large sum only to send his fellow servant in jail for a much smaller sum? Grace should have empowered him to be forgiving but in his case it didn't, that is not the purpose of God's grace. Grace empowers us for service and credits righteousness to us. It's as if we are deeply in debt and God in order to remedy our debtor status pays off all the bills and then puts money in the bank to prevent us from falling back into the same situation.

My problem with works is not so much that we are required to bear fruit but whether or not the sacraments and rites of religious service are even works at all. I was baptised a Catholic, again in the Church of Christ in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and later by oneness Pentecostals in the name of Jesus. I was even circumcised (for medical reasons) so I think I am sufficiently ritualized. As I recall, none of these events were that much work. It's ironic that the ancient Jews managed to make a prohibition against working on the Sabbath a work, it's downright laughable.

Martin Luther was a devote Catholic who lived a monastic life and worked very hard to maintain his his religious duties. In a controversy over indulgences he attempted to defend this practice but in the process was led to re-evaluate this whole business of religious duty. He was called to the Diet of Worms to answer before the Roman emperor whether he he held to the Pauline doctrine of justification by faith apart from works, among other things. He asked to have a chance to think about it a while and that night prayed something to the order of 'Lord, can I be right and the whole world be wrong'.

In the end he testified that he did not hold to Popes and councils because they contradicted one another. He either fled or was dragged from the tribunal and could very easily been executed for his testimony.

I'll happily consider your proposal for a debate, if you are interested drop me a PM and we can work out the details here.

Grace and peace,
Mark

[Athanasias]

I would be interested, justification by faith is one of my central doctrines. First, a little information about myself. I'm an evangelical and I have attended the Church of Christ (they have really good Bible studies), a number of Pentecostal and Baptist churches and currently I attend a little Baptist church down the road a ways. I have studied the Bible and I have a passion for Christian apologetics and I have spent a lot of time on the Creation/evolution thing.

I believe in justification by grace through faith apart from works even though I am well aware that justification is never alone. For instance, James is discussing the mistreatment of Christians in their own fellowship a treatment not unlike the depriving of the poor at the love feasts in Corinth. It's important to realize that justification and righteousness are the same word in the New Testament, it simply means just, fair and right. James is not saying that in order to be saved you have to do good works, what he is saying is that believers must bear fruit. James isn't talking about justification being imputed through faith he is talking about the ongoing sanctification process that is initiated by faith with righteousness being the effect.

Remember the parable of the servant who was forgiven a large sum only to send his fellow servant in jail for a much smaller sum? Grace should have empowered him to be forgiving but in his case it didn't, that is not the purpose of God's grace. Grace empowers us for service and credits righteousness to us. It's as if we are deeply in debt and God in order to remedy our debtor status pays off all the bills and then puts money in the bank to prevent us from falling back into the same situation.

My problem with works is not so much that we are required to bear fruit but whether or not the sacraments and rites of religious service are even works at all. I was baptised a Catholic, again in the Church of Christ in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and later by oneness Pentecostals in the name of Jesus. I was even circumcised (for medical reasons) so I think I am sufficiently ritualized. As I recall, none of these events were that much work. It's ironic that the ancient Jews managed to make a prohibition against working on the Sabbath a work, it's downright laughable.

Martin Luther was a devote Catholic who lived a monastic life and worked very hard to maintain his his religious duties. In a controversy over indulgences he attempted to defend this practice but in the process was led to re-evaluate this whole business of religious duty. He was called to the Diet of Worms to answer before the Roman emperor whether he he held to the Pauline doctrine of justification by faith apart from works, among other things. He asked to have a chance to think about it a while and that night prayed something to the order of 'Lord, can I be right and the whole world be wrong'.

In the end he testified that he did not hold to Popes and councils because they contradicted one another. He either fled or was dragged from the tribunal and could very easily been executed for his testimony.

I'll happily consider your proposal for a debate, if you are interested drop me a PM and we can work out the details here.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Sounds good Mark! I will drop you a line via PM!

[mark kennedy]

Athanasias and I have tentatively agreed to a debate. I did want to discuss some of the source material and invite interested parties to a companion thread in one of the common forums. Presently my primary source will be the Scriptures themselves depending on what my opponent intends to include. I doubt seriously the source material will be a big issue but it has been my experience that it only makes sense to at least identify your primary source material up front.

Other then that Athanasias is welcome to make whatever comments and suggestions he chooses to bring up. I would prefer the debate start in the next couple of days and look forward to having a substantive and civil discussion with my new found debate buddy.

Grace and peace,
Mark

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Note: There is a thread in the Soteriology Forum to discuss the upcoming debate between Anthanasias and Mark Kennedy

Find it here: http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=48903323#post48903323

Entitled, "Peanut Gallery: Debate on Justification by Faith."



.

[PETE_]

Thread set up here

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=48944183#post48944183