Tithing

[Glorified]

Just curious to what this goes for? I can't see it really adding up to much in a smaller Church let's say.

Which brings me to my next question. By whom do the Pastors and the Administrative aids get paid? Where do these funds evolve from? Just curious.

God bless

[CrystalBrooke]

is that like taking up offering?

[Glorified]

I'm sorry yes. I thought the 2 were the same.

[daveleau]

The Pastors and assistants and administrators and all of the maintainers of the building are paid with the tithes. Everything that a church spends money on is paid with tithes, unless the church is large and has income from selling items or other sources. Some churches receive money through wills, as well. I know in Charleston, SC, several churches have large amounts of land that was given to them in wills. These are sold in times of need or used by members who need them. I do not think this is the norm, though.

God bless,
Dave

[muffler dragon]

If anyone in this forum is interested, I have enough information on the tithe to probably make you ill.

+

I completely accept offerings, +

If you would like to know I feel this way, we can discourse about it.

Otherwise, I can point you in the direction of some of where I have shared my thoughts before.

Go to the Non-denom forum and look up "The Laws of Sowing and Reaping Part I" and Part 2. Part 3 is a waste of time to look at.

Take care,

m.d.

[Andyman_1970]

Anyway... the tithe that some churches operates under today is without Scriptural foundation.

I completely accept offerings, but tithes are abused and irrelevant today.

If you would like to know I feel this way, we can discourse about it.



Interesting, I would like to know your thoughts on this.

[muffler dragon]

Interesting, I would like to know your thoughts on this.
I knew I would have to go ahead and provide it on here. :)

Not a problem, Andyman, your wish is my command. Here are the posts.

If you have further questions, please address them with me.

http://www.christianforums.com/t702633
posts 4,5, and 6

Plus, I have a paper on my computer from a Jew stating agreement with me, and I also have a summary sheet of my own. Just PM if you want me to email them to you.

m.d.

ps - I hope this doesn't destroy your image of me. :blush:

[bleechers]

I completely accept offerings, but tithes are abused and irrelevant today.

I concur. "Giving" is a NT concept, "Tithing" is of the Law.

I am also opposed to a "salaried clergy" as I can find neither in the NT church. I am all for supporting full-time Christian workers and teachers, but "salaries" are out.

[9-iron]

I am also opposed to a "salaried clergy" as I can find neither in the NT church.


Didn't Paul state that those who preach the gospel have the right to make a living from the gospel. He didn't and stated many times he never inconvenienced anyone by putting this right upon them. Never the less, he did envoke this right. I can't quote the exact scripture off the top off my head, but it is where he makes the 'don't muzzle the ox' reference.

[seebs]

The idea of "tithing" a fixed amount, especially a fairly high one, is indeed antithetical to Biblical teachings on the topic. We go over this every so often.

[BT]

I concur. "Giving" is a NT concept, "Tithing" is of the Law.

I am also opposed to a "salaried clergy" as I can find neither in the NT church. I am all for supporting full-time Christian workers and teachers, but "salaries" are out.
If a pastor is a full-time Christian worker... how does he get paid, if not by salary? Would it be hourly? Who determines the rate? How does he provide for his family?

Pastors don't only work on Sundays ;) (I'm sure you realize this). A Pastor works all week, counselling, taking care of church business, visiting, preparing Sunday School and Bible Studies, and of course studying and Sermon preparation.

Tithing is an Old Testament concept it seems to be a good measuring rod for the Christian though. But if you don't want to give 10% you're not in danger of hellfire...

[seebs]

For what it's worth, my parents were fairly involved in a small-town church. They gave around 3%, and they were on the high end for how much they gave, and the church wasn't so short of money to be in any danger. 10% is a HUGE amount.

In fact, curiously, this lines up with the Old Testament teachings; the tithe is 10% of your income every year, but only one year in three do you give it to the priests. The rest of the time, you spend it on yourself in God's name. Odd how most people never actually read the passages...

[BT]

For what it's worth, my parents were fairly involved in a small-town church. They gave around 3%, and they were on the high end for how much they gave, and the church wasn't so short of money to be in any danger. 10% is a HUGE amount.

In fact, curiously, this lines up with the Old Testament teachings; the tithe is 10% of your income every year, but only one year in three do you give it to the priests. The rest of the time, you spend it on yourself in God's name. Odd how most people never actually read the passages...
Personally, I give 10% plus offerings. 10% is nothing. I can use the other 90% to buy myself some sneakers in "God's name". Odd how most people have a desire to store up earthly treasures, even if they are in "God's name" (not talking about you seebs).

If you happen to think that this quote is true or a great idea, do a quick Bible study on "Corban" and see what God thinks of it.

[bleechers]

If a pastor is a full-time Christian worker... how does he get paid, if not by salary? Would it be hourly? Who determines the rate? How does he provide for his family?

Fair questions.

He takes whatever is given to him. Paul didn't send a contract to the Philippians and negotiate a salary. He learned to live being abased or in abundance. The former should be a shame to a local church.

In short, he lives by faith. The system is alive and well in the Plymouth Brethren community. Not only are most of their full-time workers living on faith, they also support a good number of itinerant teachers who travel most of the year.

The reason this system is hard to implement, in the US anyway, is that massive amounts of giving go to para-church organizations and to building projects.

Also, the growth of the Mega-church is not a phenomenon of a great influx of souls being saved, rather it is a movement from smaller, local churches to the mega-churches, thus killing the small churches. Also, the properity gospel has concentrated church resources into the hands of a few teachers, thus starving funds from local teachers.

Pastors don't only work on Sundays (I'm sure you realize this). A Pastor works all week, counselling, taking care of church business, visiting, preparing Sunday School and Bible Studies, and of course studying and Sermon preparation.

This also touches on the one-man system that I also believe is unbiblical. The NT speaks of "elders" (plural). One may be the primary teaching and full-time worker that is called "Pastor" but we cannot expect one man to be gifted in every gift. The local Body of Christ should function in its gifts. A man may be a gifted teacher, but that does not make him able to administer a budget or comfort the sick. We all need to function in our gifts.

While I'm ranting ;) this is why so many church members are untaught and blown about by every wind of doctrine... we rely on the "Pastor" to be the "educated one" who "knows about theology". In fact, the elders are under-shepherds chosen to protect the flock, but the sheep are individually responsible to be as knowledgable as they can be. The system many Baptist churches have is merely a shadow of the clergy/laity system leftover from some other church that will remain nameless... :D

This is also why we see so much "Pastor burnout." We're asking the hand to function as the whole body.

[the Colonel]

Personally, I give 10% plus offerings. 10% is nothing. I can use the other 90% to buy myself some sneakers in "God's name". Odd how most people have a desire to store up earthly treasures, even if they are in "God's name" (not talking about you seebs).

If you happen to think that this quote is true or a great idea, do a quick Bible study on "Corban" and see what God thinks of it.

Amen! My wife and I faithfully give 10%. Yes, we're not under the law, but if anything we are encouraged and even encouraged to give much more than 10%. Under the new covenant, we as Christians must be generous in our giving and have faith in God that He will provide.

We give 10% because it is a great discipline for us and it makes us rely on God for our needs --that he will also bless what we have given.

I work in sales, and sometimes I get a bunch of money all at once. 10% can seem like a big ouch, but I am overjoyed that God has blessed me so and that I can give back to Him even just a portion of what He has given me.

And, to keep you from bringing up "you must make a lot of money", I provide for my family with $22,000 per year before tithing. :D We have NEVER been in need! God will give you satisfaction with what you have when you rely on Him for your needs.

Just some thoughts. ;)

--CK

[Andyman_1970]

In fact, curiously, this lines up with the Old Testament teachings; the tithe is 10% of your income every year, but only one year in three do you give it to the priests. The rest of the time, you spend it on yourself in God's name. Odd how most people never actually read the passages...

From what I understand from the OT, the tithe was livestock and grain/food only, no where is money indicated as to be given for the tithe.

Which brings up an interesting question, what about those Jews who did not raise livestock or grain/vergtables/fruit, like carpenters or metalsmiths? Were they required to tithe also, and if so how did they?

[seebs]

If you happen to think that this quote is true or a great idea, do a quick Bible study on "Corban" and see what God thinks of it.

I am inclined to trust the direct commandments at least somewhat.

Deuteronomy 5:22-29

"And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,"

If you don't like it, take it up with Him. :)

[GreenEyedLady]

My husband and I also faithfully give 10% every year.
Since we have been faithful his salary has doubled and we are almost out of debt! And we still give 10%!
Praise the Lord. You don't HAVE to but you will be soooooooo blessed if you do.
GEL

[bleechers]

GEL, this is not a sarcastic post (honestly), so let me ask some questions (I really am curious :)).

1. Do you tithe 10% pre or post tax?
2. Do you tithe all 10% locally or do you support several ministries in that 10%?
3. Do you consider any gift of goods (non-cash) as part of any given 10%?

I am truly curious about all this. I wonder how different people view the 10%


On a different, but related note:

I heard of a Christian couple a few years back (in MN I think) who pledged $15,000 to some church, but they were under bankruptcy protection. They were sued by their creditors, but they fought it claiming they pledged it in the name of Christ.

I think, biblically, they owe their creditors first. In reality, that is not their $15K, it is the property of their creditors. Anyway, that's how I saw it. Any thoughts?

[adamdavid]

I give at least ten percent... it seems like such a small sacrifice... I realize I don't have to... Its not required of me as I'm no longer under 'the law', but God really does bless you back when you give to him! I don't have a job, so 10% Changes with every chunk of money I get, and sometimes I just decide to give the entire thing to God! I would probably just spend it at Starbucks anyway, and it always comes back to me bigger and better!
1. Do you tithe 10% pre or post tax?
2. Do you tithe all 10% locally or do you support several ministries in that 10%?
3. Do you consider any gift of goods (non-cash) as part of any given 10%?
1.)Because I don't have a 'real' job, and therefore pay no taxes, I can't really answer that, but if I did, no questions asked, God would get at least 10% of my pre-tax... he gave his life, why should I cheapen my thankyou note?
2.)My 'Tithe' goes to my local church, though until I found my current church, I was in the process of 'church-hopping' and didn't have a specific church to support... So, I would do with my tithe as the Lord led me... sometimes that was sending it to a ministry of choice, sometimes it was going down to a homeless person and taking them out to starbucks... just something to show someone Jesus' love (and no, I didn't take my drink out of the tithe budget! ;) ), and I still occasionally do stuff like that, but whatever that takes goes above and beyond the tithe that already goes to my church...
3.)Nope... I deal only with money when it comes to figuring out my 10%! Its confusing enough that way... I wouldn't want to throw even more stuff into the equation! my non-mathematical mind just couldn't handle it! ;) Anywho, most of the time when I give goods, its because I'm done with them, and would rather have someone get more use out of them than to think about them wrotting in some garbage dump somewhere...

Again, I really don't think that tithing any specific amount of money is required, but it seems like such a trivial amount to me that I just can't help but give it away! If its not for you, I hope you have some other way of giving back to god, and if your method works for you, good. 10% is an easy way for me to figure out what to give, and I tend to tip more than that at Starbucks, so in my mind, if my Barista gets that much, why shouldn't God? It may not be required, but it really is a blessing to be able to give, and I like it when I don't have to think too hard about how much to give :)

Blessings...
AdamDavid

[BT]

1. Do you tithe 10% pre or post tax?
2. Do you tithe all 10% locally or do you support several ministries in that 10%?
3. Do you consider any gift of goods (non-cash) as part of any given 10%?

I am truly curious about all this. I wonder how different people view the 10%




1. 10% pre tax

2. 10% locally (to my local church) in addition to (what we call) Faith Promise which supports missions work, in addition to "offerings" which we give out of the abundance of our hearts (which goes to families in need both within and somewhat without the church)

3. We consider all else extra outside of the 10%

The 10% we give is directly off of our "gross" income every pay.

[BT]

I am inclined to trust the direct commandments at least somewhat.
When? When it feeds your flesh? LOL.




Deuteronomy 5:22-2922 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me. 23 And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that ye came near unto me, even all the heads of your tribes, and your elders; 24 And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath showed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth. 25 Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die. 26 For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived? 27 Go thou near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it. 28 And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken. 29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

"And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,"

If you don't like it, take it up with Him. :)Help yourself. Do what is best in your own eyes. God doesn't want your money, he wants your life. Go and chase whatsoever your soul lusteth after. Enjoy.

[GreenEyedLady]

GEL, this is not a sarcastic post (honestly), so let me ask some questions (I really am curious :)).

1. Do you tithe 10% pre or post tax?
2. Do you tithe all 10% locally or do you support several ministries in that 10%?
3. Do you consider any gift of goods (non-cash) as part of any given 10%?

I am truly curious about all this. I wonder how different people view the 10%



We tithe before taxes....as the Lord desrves the first fruits of our labor.

We tithe 10% locally and also support missonaries monthly. So our charity money is over 10% technically.

No, I don't concider any gifts or goods 10% for our family. As I stated first, we give our "first fruits" to the Lord and then we do what we want with the rest.

Praise the Lord for He is good and deserves it!

[seebs]

When? When it feeds your flesh? LOL.

When God says one thing, and a bunch of people get together and say "actually, what God says isn't right, you should do this instead"...

Help yourself. Do what is best in your own eyes. God doesn't want your money, he wants your life.

Exactly. And of that, I give 100%, and it really doesn't even make sense to ask how much of my money I "give to God", because it's all His anyway.

[BT]

Exactly. And of that, I give 100%, and it really doesn't even make sense to ask how much of my money I "give to God", because it's all His anyway.
As long as you give 100% of your life that's all that really matters. I wouldn't say, How much money to you give to God? Because you don't really give Him any. I would instead say, How much money do you give to God's work, or to the ministry of your church. And even that is a somewhat irrelavent question. We need to give money to God's work, how else would missionaries survive? And if we didn't give a set amount to missions but instead just gave how ever much we felt like, there would be far fewer people on the mission field.

When a missionary comes to your church and your church pledges let's say $100 per month to that missionary, do they not need to know that there will be at least 100 a month coming in that they can use towards this? Or should they instead pledge money that they think they will have and later leave the missionary high and dry when his bills come in. How can a church even take on missionary support if they don't have a budget for it? Let's not get too hung up on things like budgets and salaries. These are neither good nor evil, they are financial tools.

I have some experience with this because I'm a deacon and sit on decisions that have to do with money etc. My church right now supports over 80 missionaries. I do not belong to a large church, I think we have 200 people or so. Our missions program is determined to give real financial support to missionaries. Some churches will give a missionary 2.00 per month, either because that is all that they have (and God bless them for it), or because they are more concerned about having numerous pictures on the "missionary support wall" in the entrance (and God repay them for their works). Our support for missionaries is something that really drives my church, but we also need to pay for the expenses at hand. Hydro, water, gas, parking-lot cleaning, building repair, administration fees (outside) are not free simply because you are a church. These things need to be paid for. This is what the tithes are used for, the maintenance of God's (tangible) work. This is the heart of tithing.

Ok, like it or not I'm going to Malachi now.

Malachi 3:10 "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."

So at first glimpse it is easy enough to dismiss this verse. We can say, "This is for the Jews and was for the Temple. We are not Jews and even if we were there is no temple.. so this is not in effect."

This seems to be a solid answer, but I ask you (as I learned from Christ in the Gospels) to look at the heart of the matter. The point of this was to bring the tithe into the storehouse so that there was meat in God's house. So why ought there be meat in God's house? He obviously doesn't need it. However, the priests did. The heart of this was to supply the work of God and the people who worked for God, in this case the priests, in our case the pastors. We tithe money so that there is meat in God's house (which I parallel with our local churches). This meat is used for God's work, for His purposes. It's not like the deacon's and pastor are using this money to go and buy new cars every couple of weeks (if they did God reward them in kind).

So while we can dismiss this verse by reason of antiquity we can not dismiss the heart of the command. This is why I say that 10% is a good measuring rod for tithing in today's age. God was well pleased with 10% during the dispensation of Law, God will be pleased still with the tithe in our day and age. I don't preach on tithing and I don't know who gives what in my church, nor do I ever want to know. God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34), and neither am I. I do counsel people to tithe if they ask, but only so the Lord's work may continue and prosper. If you don't want to tithe, I'm not going to get up on the soapbox and call down fire on your head. But just be careful when you claim that there is no tithing in the NT, because while the concept doesn't appear in the exact phrase there is allusion to it and it seems to be a practice that was installed by the Apostles as they journeyed around. So, yes there is an aspect of giving in the NT that appears to be tithing... so just becareful when you claim that it isn't there. I wouldn't want people jumping down on you. If I could remember where it is off hand I would tell you, but I'm a bit under the weather right now and having a hard time concentrating.

Back to bed for me. :sick:

[Glorified]

Wow you guys are awesome, thank you for the abundance of replies. I hope that I didn't miss this but I'm curious as to the difference between Tithes and offerings. Both come from the heart but is tithing from the law and offering more from the heart?

[eldermike]

If tithing is from the "law", will tithing create bondage to the law?
Another question: Did Jesus know and follow any laws?

OK, forget tithing......Is your church doing anything worth supporting?

Should your pastor apply for social aid, perhaps give up medical insurance even for his children, when in fact you have a policy covering your children?
There are pastors without insurance bringing God's word to folks that have low deductables and even dental plans that are afraid the "law" will trap them is they give the poor man a living wage.

I am to close to this issue, so I will leave it there.
Mike

[Andyman_1970]

Let me start by answering bleecher's question:

>We give 10+% out of every paycheck, this is figured against our gross income.

>Most of what we give goes locally to our church, but periodically we will give that money to the local union rescue mission or a non-local ministry the Lord has burdened us to help.

>Anything we give that is non-cash we really don't keep track of. We use John the Baptist's philosophy of "if your brother has no tunic, and you have two tunics you should give one of them to your brother". For example we have a computer that is only about a year or two old that is perfectly good condition, we are looking for a family or someone in need (like a student) in our church that could use it. We don't keep track of it's value or anything like that donation wise.

Now to my question:

In Deut 14, tells the Israelites that once a year (except of the third year tithe) they are to bring their tithe to Jerusalem (if they had to far to go, they could sell their livestock/grain/fruit) and have a huge feast, they would eat and feast on their own tithe.

How come we never hear this from the pulpit..."Take one months tithe and go out with your family to a nice restaurant and have a big meal"? This is a command of God and yet in the 8+ years I have been a Christian and heard many a sermon on tithing I have never once heard this. What I have heard is that ALL the first fruits belong to God and should come into His house (church) and if you don't your robbing God. This message is clearly contrary to Scripture, because God commands that once a year you are to take the tithe and use if for yourself.

This has set wrong with me. We as baptist think of ourselve (myself included) as doing church the Biblical way, one of the things we like to hang our hat on is our Biblical baptism by immersion. Why then is it ok for us (and I'm speaking somewhat rhetorically as you all have not been to the churches I have been to) to not teach Biblical giving? It seems we have determined one thing is important to keep Biblical, but a different thing well lets just "tweak" it a little.

Anyway, I'm not trying to start a riot, but the fact that the true Biblically holistic view of tithing is not taught sits with me wrong.

[bleechers]

which we give out of the abundance of our hearts (which goes to families in need both within and somewhat without the church

I am glad you mentioned this. Paul clearly states that our primary responsibility is to care for the church... the people, not the building. This is also why I'm not a big fan of things like Habitat for Humanity (I got into this on the Music board), as they do a lot of "work" for non-Christians and rarely, if ever, share the gospel.

Looks good on paper, but it ain't what we've been called to do!

Christians are given abundance to show love to other Christians. Unfortuately, we can raise tens of thousands of dollars for building projects while teachers of the Word struggle to live and while our brothers and sisters suffer need. (I'm generalizing, of course.)

As for the "tithes" of the Law, I once added them up and it came to something like 23% (partly because some of the tithe was really an "infrastructure" tax). So, I have no problem with a 10% target... so long as any giving is done from the heart and not because of "law-keeping".

It's good to see so many willing and wanting to give! :)

[the Colonel]

I really am pleased to hear the attitudes and opinions expressed in this thread. Bleechers (as well as others) has brought up a good point --as long as it is from the heart. That is the whole point, is it not? We are to be joyful in our giving and have giving hearts.

10% before or after gross pay or whatever other formula is discussed is really a moot point. We should give because we want to and in the amount the Spirit leads us. My wife and I personally use the 10% guide because it's very disciplining for us. If we didn't use this guide, I'm afraid we would give less. Perhaps, however, we would give more? :eek:

I am a giver by nature (one of my gifts from God?). I know, for me personally, I would give more, but tithing has been a very big struggle for my wife, so the 10% is a "compromise". She's a mother and, of course, is very nesting and wishes to make sure she has all the food, clothing, etc. for our children and family.

As for where the money goes, I think it's imperative --if God has led you to a church of which you're a part of that body-- that you support your local church first and foremost. If you are able and willing to give beyond that to others, that is good also. As one stated, giving is not just money, but help, assistance, time, and other things.

Just some more scattered thoughts.

--CK

[RED that's ME]

The Bible talks about taking care of your pastor. This is only a couple of verses that talks about a servant is worthy of their hire. The church is responsible for rightly taking care of the pastor and church finances. Pastors shouldn't have to nickle & dime everything but should be taken care of appropiately.

Timothy 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

[muffler dragon]

My husband and I also faithfully give 10% every year.
Since we have been faithful his salary has doubled and we are almost out of debt! And we still give 10%!
Praise the Lord. You don't HAVE to but you will be soooooooo blessed if you do.
GEL
Any chance it had to do with the possibility of your husband doing well at his job?

m.d.

[muffler dragon]

+

+

The tithe was given as a matter of sustenance for the Levites. They were not allowed to own property. Therefore, they could not raise crops or livestock.

The tithe was never in a form of currency. Money and the tithe only come together in one verse in Scripture:

Deuteronomy 14:
22 "You (11) shall surely tithe all the produce from what you sow, which comes out of the field every year.
23 "You shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God, (12) at the place where He chooses to establish His name, the tithe of your grain, your new wine, your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and your flock, so that you may (13) learn to fear the LORD your God always.
24 "If the distance is so great for you that you are not able to bring the tithe, since the place where the LORD your God chooses (14) to set His name is too far away from you when the LORD your God blesses you,
25 then you shall exchange it for money, and bind the money in your hand and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses.
26 "You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and (15) there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.
27 "Also you shall not neglect (16) the Levite who is in your town, (17) for he has no portion or inheritance among you.
28 "(18) At the end of every third year you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in that year, and shall deposit it in your town.
29 "The Levite, (19) because he has no portion or inheritance among you, and (20) the alien, the orphan and the widow who are in your town, shall come and (21) eat and be satisfied, in order that (22) the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do.

As you might note, not only is the tithe and money together in this issue strictly as a matter of an exchange, but furthermore, it is so that you can through a party in honor of G-d. +

Here's the thing: if you want to give ten percent of your salary to an 'organization', then do it according to your conscience. + Y'shua (Jesus) paid the tithe, because the temple was still standing, the Levites still existed as a priesthood.

+

+

+

m.d.

[muffler dragon]

The Bible talks about taking care of your pastor. This is only a couple of verses that talks about a servant is worthy of their hire. The church is responsible for rightly taking care of the pastor and church finances. Pastors shouldn't have to nickle & dime everything but should be taken care of appropiately.

Timothy 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
+

Let me tell you what the church gave the minister that I used to attend:

Head Pastor:

$90,000
didn't pay insurance.

Associate Pastor #1:

$60,000
didn't pay insurance

Associate Pastor #2
$50,000
didn't pay insurance

All total, there was over $300,000 in the annual budget for an administration and minsterial staff of 6. +

+

Each one of us is called to be a 'minister'. +

m.d.

[eldermike]

Any chance it had to do with the possibility of your husband doing well at his job?

This is a sad comment to a person that gives credit to the Lord for everything.

Each one of us is called to be a 'minister'. There needn't always be a matter of compensation.

Baptist understand this, it's a core belief of the baptist.

All total, there was over $300,000 in the annual budget for an administration and minsterial staff of 6. Do you find that reasonable for what can legitimately be considered part-time employment?

I have no idea if it's reasonable, I don't personally know any of them. However, as far as part time employment I think you are talking about a preacher, not a pastor. If your pastor was only teaching then it's too much, but if He was a pastor that's a different story.

Mike

[GreenEyedLady]

Bleechers,
Are you against a pastor saying "You should give 10% to the Lord" to the congregation?
There is alot of talk about the "law" and from the heart.
Are you being an obedient christian if you do not tithe?
Is it right in God's eyes NOT to tithe?
GEL

[bleechers]

Bleechers,
Are you against a pastor saying "You should give 10% to the Lord" to the congregation?
There is alot of talk about the "law" and from the heart.
Are you being an obedient christian if you do not tithe?
Is it right in God's eyes NOT to tithe?
GEL

To be honest, I lean towards muffler dragon's view. I have always seen the OT tithe as sort of an infrastructure and governmental tax. I think to declare "YOU SHOULD GIVE 10%" is taking a part of the Law and binding it on the church. As both Paul and James teach, the Law is not divisible, you are either under ALL the law or under NONE of the law. In Christ, I am under none of the OT law.

I am against "salaries" as I cannot find such a concept in the NT. I believe Christians should give (as the greek work suggests) "hilariously" to the work of the minsitry. Too often we give to buildings and not to men.

The Plymouth Brethren do this with great effectiveness. They have no salaried clergy. They have full-time workers and itinerant teachers who all live on faith. People give as they are led. Others give of their talents. I know one worker who has four kids and a Christian contarctor doubled the size of his house for him and the local church paid for the materials.

I also do not make laws for others. If you and your husband prayerfully and with great joy give 10% to the work of the minstry, then I say "Praise the Lord"!

$90,000
didn't pay insurance.

This figure staggered me. 90 grand? I hope this was a local assembly in NYC, otherwise it seems pretty high. Now if this is what the saints gave from their hearts and not from a budget, then I wouldn't be troubled by it. But to create a legal contract promising such money? I just don't see it in the NT.

How many brothers and sisters in Christ live in want because we have satisfied ourselves with a tithe or because we have locked up the Lord's money in a budget?

I say, kill the budget; give hilariously; rich support the poor in the church; support the work of the gospel; give to and for souls not to buildings (within reason); provide a glass of cold water for a worker in the ministry if that's what you have... if you are in abundance, sell the fourth car and provide for full-time workers directly and secretly...

:clap:

[BT]

I agree with Bleecher's heart. Just not with his mind (on this point), but that's ok. Budgets and salaries have a place the man of God must eat and we must be good stewards. But I hear ya Bleecher's and I understand where you're coming from.

[bleechers]

Budgets and salaries have a place the man of God must eat and we must be good stewards.

My church has a budget and salaries... so I don't think it's anathema ;), but I believe that a search of the NT will lean towards living on faith over a contractual obligation. I can live with both (budgets and salaries), but I truly admire the PBs for doing it the way they do.

Thanks for the kind words... by the way, that 90 grand was in US dollars not Canadian dollars! ;)

[BT]

My church has a budget and salaries... so I don't think it's anathema ;), but I believe that a search of the NT will lean towards living on faith over a contractual obligation. I can live with both (budgets and salaries), but I truly admire the PBs for doing it the way they do.

Thanks for the kind words... by the way, that 90 grand was in US dollars not Canadian dollars! ;)
As usual we're on the same page. My church has a budget and salaries too. The bugdets are modest as are the salaries. You have to remember that Paul and the apostles were not pastors.. they were missionaries, church planters if you will. We don't really have anything to tell us how the local pastors were supported. Hey think of this... if your church is bringing in 200k per week should that all go to the Pastor? A budget helps the local church stay afloat and salaries ensure that the Pastor's taken care of.. If a man has no salary he can't get a bank loan, or a mortgage (as far as I know.. in Canada anyway). There are some huge churches that have a lot of money coming in, budgets and salaries keep things under control. I can admire the PB's too but like you said it's neither right or wrong (not anathema). I'm lucky in this, that the Lord has blessed me with skills that I can use to get a job outside of the pastorate. So when I'm a pastor and in a small church, I don't need to be a burden on them if they can't afford my salary. All things work together for good to those who love the Lord, to those who are called according to his purpose.

[muffler dragon]

This is a sad comment to a person that gives credit to the Lord for everything.


Baptist understand this, it's a core belief of the baptist.


I have no idea if it's reasonable, I don't personally know any of them. However, as far as part time employment I think you are talking about a preacher, not a pastor. If your pastor was only teaching then it's too much, but if He was a pastor that's a different story.

Mike
Dear Elder Mike:

+He probably does stellar work because he wants to please his Master and his boss. Thus, he does a good job; furthermore, he gets a good raise. +

m.d.

[muffler dragon]

+

Give all you want to give. Give with a cheerful heart. Just don't accept that there is some sort of G-dly recompense for doing so. Offerings are great, +
+

I'm not here to make enemies and I'm by no means here to cause division. +

+please come to the debate invitation forum and check out my thread on this very topic. No one has come to debate it with me.

I wish you well. +
m.d.

[eldermike]

Where in all of my question to Green Eyed Lady do I take away the opportunity to praise G-d? Do you think that her husband would still be as blessed in his job if he were doing a terrible job? Come on, it's logical. He probably does stellar work because he wants to please his Master and his boss. Thus, he does a good job; furthermore, he gets a good raise. Where is my disdain in that statement?
Having a good job, the health to have a good job, the mind to work a good job, these are all from God.

[muffler dragon]

Having a good job, the health to have a good job, the mind to work a good job, these are all from God.
I understand this and praise G-d for them in my life as well.

I'm sorry, but you have lost me. Have I done anything to show otherwise? Or how does this tie to the tithe?

Forgive my ignorance.

m.d.

[bleechers]

Give all you want to give. Give with a cheerful heart. Just don't accept that there is some sort of G-dly recompense for doing so. Offerings are great, the tithe is irrelevant.

In a nutshell... I'm with you.

I am baffled how teachers can go to the Law, extract this one part, misapply it, and then put everybody under obligation... We then take the promises of God for Israel and conveniently ignore God's curses for Israel also found in the Law.

Making the tithe a NT "Law" is no different than carving out any other part of the Law and placing that burden of obligation on the necks of Christians.

Give. Give hilariously. Give to those in need in the church. :)