whats the deal with all these denominations?

[WuAgent]

non-denomination
baptist
catholic
charismatic catholic
lutheran
jehovah witness
pentecostal
universalist
mormon
episcopal
and more...

as i was posting this is got an idea of why all these denominations are here but i might be wrong.

personally i think they're all unnecessary and ridiculous as it just leads to division and fighting within the faith.

[WuAgent]

MODS: please move thread to debate section

[TeslaZ]

hahahaha I saw this and giggled because it's like a menu of beliefs.I agree with nothing that is organized and rewritten.

[Stinker]

non-denomination
baptist
catholic
charismatic catholic
lutheran
jehovah witness
pentecostal
universalist
mormon
episcopal
and more...

as i was posting this is got an idea of why all these denominations are here but i might be wrong.

personally i think they're all unnecessary and ridiculous as it just leads to division and fighting within the faith.

The 1st century churches could be considered denominations, in that they had so many different beliefs but were anchored to each other with this one creed:



1 Corinthians 15


1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

[Artificial Intelligence]

non-denomination
baptist
catholic
charismatic catholic
lutheran
jehovah witness
pentecostal
universalist
mormon
episcopal
and more...

as i was posting this is got an idea of why all these denominations are here but i might be wrong.

personally i think they're all unnecessary and ridiculous as it just leads to division and fighting within the faith.

Some of those you listed are cults. May as well have added Buddhism and Islam at that rate.

As for authentic Christian denominations, they are simply different parts of the body of Christ. Even in the time of John the apostle, there were different Christian churches with different beliefs, read the first few chapters of Revelation to see what I mean. If you understand the difference of core beliefs and secondary belief issues, you will recognize that all authentic Christian denominations/non-denominations agree on the core beliefs. After all, secondary beliefs don’t get ya into heaven, only the fundamental beliefs of the faith are for that.

There are of course some churches that major in the minors, i.e. overemphasize secondary issues over core beliefs, but what can ya do? That’s where you get big growth in cults like Mormonism etc because such churches do not teach the important core beliefs thus they loose people to non-authentic churches that bend them into theological pretzels. Study (the bible) to show thyself approved 2 Tim 2:15

Anyway, one solid point about different denominations is that there is no centralized power over the entire Church. Makes us even more so put Christ first as the head of the church. If you put all your apples into one barrel, what could possibly happen? They all spoil. Not big differences though, at least among us that hold to the core beliefs. Your list doesn't reflect that, know the differences?

The difference I see it as, though I wont get into specifics right now, is that five you listed I could attend and five I cant. A few of those I cant are cults and the other two are false teachings (major in minors) based on works, not grace. So the difference you are asking is the difference between eternal life and eternal damnation, according that that list. Better question for your post would be “why so many false teachers among teachers of the pure gospel of Christ?”

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

non-denomination
baptist
catholic
charismatic catholic
lutheran
jehovah witness
pentecostal
universalist
mormon
episcopal
and more...

as i was posting this is got an idea of why all these denominations are here but i might be wrong.

personally i think they're all unnecessary and ridiculous as it just leads to division and fighting within the faith.

You might study up on the protestant reformation, to understanding your question.

[cowboysfan1970]

non-denomination
baptist
catholic
charismatic catholic
lutheran
jehovah witness
pentecostal
universalist
mormon
episcopal
and more...


The only ones that I really question if they are legitimately Christian or not are Jehovah's Witnesses and to some degree Mormons. The reason why I question is that they don't allow their members to read the Bible and use their own version that is very different from any of the other Bibles that other denominations use. They preach a completely different gospel.

Christianity is very divided and it raises the question of how can we effectively fight the Devil and the forces of evil when we are fighting ourselves instead? I have had it put to me by some that if someone is Catholic or Orthodox that they aren't a "real Christian" and they are going to hell. Well that's a prideful attitude to have in the first place. It mostly comes down to style. What style of worship to you prefer? We shouldn't criticize others for liking a style that's different from our own. People can be different from you and not be wrong.

[Artificial Intelligence]

some degree Mormons. The reason why I question is that they don't allow their members to read the Bible and use their own version that is very different from any of the other Bibles that other denominations use. They preach a completely different gospel.

Christianity is very divided If you are lumping in Mormons, then yes Christianity is VERY divided in that aspect. I don't worship the brother of Satan. I also believe that the Holy Spirit is not a "force" but is God Himself, and that he dwells within my being. That unless one has the Holy Spirit indwelling then, they absolutely do not belong to God and one day Jesus will tell them "I never knew you". If you tell that to any Mormon, they will think you be possessed by a demon.

Universalism believes that there are many ways to God, to be saved. But wide is the way that leads to destruction.

Catholicism is based on works. I do believe that some Catholics are born again saved (though they usually don't call it that), but it's not quite what the Roman Catholic Church actually teaches. Where I read salvation from the Greek, they translate it penance from their Vulgate. Penance is works based, salvation is complete, quite a difference and far from the same.

JW, or Watch tower bible and tract society is the same as Mormonism, being an unorthodox cult. Wide is the way that leads to destruction.

Just noticed you are Catholic, well hope you are born again, or whatever you call it. As Jesus said to Nicodemus, you must be born again from above. I've had close friends that were born again Christian Catholics, so I know there are some :)
It's not something you can ask any church for or do any list of works for. One must ask Jesus directly for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit God. Not just Catholic churches bypass that, many "protestant" churches do as well, same boat. Lot's of evangelicals are not 'born again', I've read polls and surveys that count it at around 50% or more not being born again. Sad, sad, sad.

[Wade Smith]

non-denomination
baptist
catholic
charismatic catholic
lutheran
jehovah witness
pentecostal
universalist
mormon
episcopal
and more...

as i was posting this is got an idea of why all these denominations are here but i might be wrong.

personally i think they're all unnecessary and ridiculous as it just leads to division and fighting within the faith.


Well, I can definitely say that from those on that list, at least Jehovah's witnesses and Mormons are NOT Christians, no matter what anyone else says.

I have had debate with Jehovah's witnesses, and all I can say is, they "know not what they worship".



Can an Article send someone to hell? Well, the short answer is "Yes".

Jehovah's witnesses appear to teach that Jesus is "a" god. And that he is actually a mere angel. They actually think he is Michael.



The Bible teaches that Jesus is THE God. That he is the incarnate "Word of God" which "Became flesh and dwelt among us." That he is the "Only Begotten Son of God".



So unfortunately, I know at least 2 on that list are cults, and unless they "repent and believe the Gospel" they are going to die in their sins.



As for Catholicism, I know quite a few former catholics who are now Pentecostal or non-denominational, and they'll tell you that they were never born again as a Catholic. They got saved through a protestant ministry, and that further, God told them to leave the Catholic church. In many cases, Salvation as in the Born Again experience, appears to never really be taught in a meaningful way.


As a matter of fact, I've actually seen some programming on some of the Catholic channels that appear to totally deny what they call an "Epiphony" experience whereby a person comes to know the Lord.

Well, to me, this is very tragic, because the Born Again experience truly is an Epiphony of the Spirit. It is not something that can be "drilled" into a person, but rather their spirit must seek God and God must stir up their heart.

But this is not taught in Catholicism. They are taught works based salvation through vain religion and repititions.

My heart aches every time I flick past that channel and listen to the mindless droning of a dozen or so nuns chanting, "Hail Mary full of grace" and "Holy Mother of God" and "Queen of Heaven" and such other blasphemies, fully believing they are doing God a service.

[cowboysfan1970]

One thing I have noticed with non-Catholics or non-Orthodox Christians is that they have a very poor understanding of what Catholics believe. Some of it borders on complete ignorance. They base their beliefs about Catholics from rumor, innuendo, and what other's have told them. Many of them have never once set foot inside a Catholic church or attended a Mass. I have found that very few hate Catholics for what the Vatican teaches, but they hate it for what they think it teaches. That's a big difference. I was raised in a very conservative Protestant community that did somewhat believe in the Faith through Works ideas. They followed a very legalistic doctrine that was completely rules based. Their attitudes were that if the Bible didn't say it was OK then if you did it it was a sin that could cost you your salvation. I now know that doesn't appear anywhere in the Bible.

Catholics believe that the sole way to God and Heaven is faith in Christ. Works won't send you to Heaven but you should do works not because you are a Christian but because it's in your heart to do so. We have an obligation to help others. We don't worship Mary, we revere her. The only ones that we worship are God and Christ, no others. We don't believe that saying The Rosary will absolve your sins. We say it to turn our minds towards thoughts of God and repentence. If someone thinks that Catholics aren't "real" Christians or that they promote something that is un-Biblical then they should attend a Mass and see for themselves. Chances are they will find that they had some strong misconceptions unless they are totally determined to believe what they want no matter what.

What disturbs me in Christianity now is this gospel of wealth and prosperity, or this "Seed of Faith" gospel. God doesn't command us to be successful or wealthy. All he asks of us is to have faith in him and Christ, and love him like he loves us. If you notice whenever one of these preachers that promotes this "Seed of Faith" system always requests that you plant your $1,000 seed in their ministry. They basically pimp you all of these books and DVDs that they have made at outrageously jacked up prices and try to get you to give them more and more money. The larger your seed is the greater you will be rewarded. I think it's a con job.

[Artificial Intelligence]

One thing I have noticed with non-Catholics or non-Orthodox Christians is that they have a very poor understanding of what Catholics believe. Some of it borders on complete ignorance. They base their beliefs about Catholics from rumor, innuendo, and what other's have told them. Many of them have never once set foot inside a Catholic church or attended a Mass. I have found that very few hate Catholics for what the Vatican teaches, but they hate it for what they think it teaches. Well I kinda figured that this would be your reply. It's usual.

Fist off, I have had close friends that were catholic. I grew up with Catholic friends. I have attended catholic mass when I was young, went with my catholic friends. Lastly, I don't hate catholics. Where in my post did I ever say I hated catholics??!? But just the opposite. This is why I find it difficult to speak with most catholics, where as I say I have had friends that were catholic, that I disagree with what the Vatican teaches, I am accused of being a catholic hater. So go ahead and defend your Vatican teachings and label anyone that disagrees with it as... stuff that has echoed since the middle-ages, it's all the rage. :sigh:

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Catholicism is based on works. I do believe that some Catholics are born again saved (though they usually don't call it that), but it's not quite what the Roman Catholic Church actually teaches. Where I read salvation from the Greek, they translate it penance from their Vulgate. Penance is works based, salvation is complete, quite a difference and far from the same.

Catholicism doesn't teach salvation based on works. It is actually a heresy that has been heavily rebuked in the Catholic Church for many, many centuries.

I don't know who told you Catholics translate salvation as penance, but they do not.

Just noticed you are Catholic, well hope you are born again, or whatever you call it. As Jesus said to Nicodemus, you must be born again from above. I've had close friends that were born again Christian Catholics, so I know there are some :)
It's not something you can ask any church for or do any list of works for. One must ask Jesus directly for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit God. Not just Catholic churches bypass that, many "protestant" churches do as well, same boat. Lot's of evangelicals are not 'born again', I've read polls and surveys that count it at around 50% or more not being born again. Sad, sad, sad.

Actually, the term "born again Christian" was developed by American evangelicals during the 1960s. It was a term they took from the bible and defined according to their own beliefs- so they could turn around and say "you need to be born again because it says so in the bible". Then they define what is means to be born again. The actual Greek is anothen- which means either above or again. It is often translated in English as again in that particular scripture.

What one should ask is why is one particular focus on that phrase? Obviously- because it says you must be born again to be saved. But the bible mentions many things you must have for salvation- including baptism and communion. As for the Holy Spirit, it plays a major role in Catholicism. Catholics believe it is the Holy Spirit that allows them to be saved- and through baptism, repentance and acceptance of Christ, they are saved. It is not the water of baptism that saves, but the Holy Spirit working through it.

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Well I kinda figured that this would be your reply. It's usual.

Fist off, I have had close friends that were catholic. I grew up with Catholic friends. I have attended catholic mass when I was young, went with my catholic friends. Lastly, I don't hate catholics. Where in my post did I ever say I hated catholics??!? But just the opposite. This is why I find it difficult to speak with most catholics, where as I say I have had friends that were catholic, that I disagree with what the Vatican teaches, I am accused of being a catholic hater. So go ahead and defend your Vatican teachings and label anyone that disagrees with it as... stuff that has echoed since the middle-ages, it's all the rage. :sigh:

I don't think you hate Catholics at all (and I don't think he is saying you do either), but I do think you may not be properly understanding what Catholics believe, both by bad information and through a protestant lens.

Let me ask you this- when you read the bible, do you understand that you are reading it through your understanding of Christianity, defined by what your pastors have taught and what beliefs you have decided to hold- or do you believe that you are reading the bible 'clearly' and without bias?

[Artificial Intelligence]

Catholicism doesn't teach salvation based on works. It is actually a heresy that has been heavily rebuked in the Catholic Church for many, many centuries.

I don't know who told you Catholics translate salvation as penance, but they do not.

It’s commonly known that the vulgate mistranslates important verses regarding repentance to penance. It turns it from a decision to not sin any longer on behalf of the power of Christ to now a “repayment” of some sort that earns forgiveness. In the Septuagint, it is repent, not penance.

The Latin Fathers translated metanoia as paenitentia, which came to mean "penance" or "acts of penance." They felt that in order to obtain eternal salvation men had to perform righteous acts of penance as prescribed by one's confessor priest.




Actually, the term "born again Christian" was developed by American evangelicals during the 1960s.

Actually it was invented by Jesus the Christ. Written by the apostles by movement of the indwelt Holy Spirit. 1960's? Try more like first century.


What one should ask is why is one particular focus on that phrase? Obviously- because it says you must be born again to be saved. But the bible mentions many things you must have for salvation- including baptism and communion. No it doesn't. Those are works, which proves my point exactly. So if this is so, than the thief on the Cross went directly to hell, because he could not have come down and receive water baptism nor take communion. BTW these of which things are done before a Catholic is perceived as part of the family of God according to the Vatican. One must jump though all the popper hoops such as water baptism and be able to recite the correct words before there may be even a slight chance they may some day be acceptable for God to want.

Water baptism does not save. Communion crackers do not save. Only being born again from above can save, fully a price paid for by Christ alone. No work will ever get you into heaven. Even the angels "believe" in Christ, believing is not enough, one must follow, not the church and their hoops, but Christ alone.

Sola Scriptura - by scripture alone
Sola fide - by faith alone
Sola gratia - by grace alone
Solus Christus - Christ alone
Soli Deo Gloria - Glory to GOD alone

Trying to convince me that it all was just one big misunderstanding that lead to the reformation and beyond, well is a bit amusing… if it were not for so many that were murdered for it :sigh:

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

It’s commonly known that the vulgate mistranslates important verses regarding repentance to penance. It turns it from a decision to not sin any longer on behalf of the power of Christ to now a “repayment” of some sort that earns forgiveness. In the Septuagint, it is repent, not penance.

you just said salvation, not repent. Which words are we discussing here?

Actually it was invented by Jesus the Christ. Written by the apostles by movement of the indwelt Holy Spirit. 1960's? Try more like first century.

Really? Then find me any writing before the 20th Century that uses the phrase "born again Christian". You will find nothing, nadda- zilch.

The term born again is found in the scripture and was taken up by the evangelicals in order to define what is means to be born again, so they could tell me they must be 'born again because the bible says so'.

No it doesn't. Those are works, which proves my point exactly. So if this is so, than the thief on the Cross went directly to hell, because he could not have come down and receive water baptism nor take communion. BTW these of which things are done before a Catholic is perceived as part of the family of God according to the Vatican. One must jump though all the popper hoops such as water baptism and be able to recite the correct words before there may be even a slight chance they may some day be acceptable for God to want.

Again, you are showing me that you don't understand what Catholic believe- only the propaganda protestants have told you.
Works based salvation means that you earn salvation. Works does not mean 'you have to do something to get saved' because the very act of making Christ is an act.

The Catholic Churches teaches that you are saved by faith. And it is God's grace that allows one to transform from sinner to saint. The grace comes by way of the Holy Spirit, through baptism and communion.

Water baptism does not save. Communion crackers do not save. Only being born again from above can save, fully a price paid for by Christ alone. No work will ever get you into heaven. Even the angels "believe" in Christ, believing is not enough, one must follow, not the church and their hoops, but Christ alone.

Catholic don't practice water baptism (which is what John the Baptist did)- they practice baptism- which involves water and the Holy Spirit.

As for communion: "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." - John 6:54

Sola Scriptura - by scripture alone
Sola fide - by faith alone
Sola gratia - by grace alone
Solus Christus - Christ alone
Soli Deo Gloria - Glory to GOD alone

You do realize where those terms come from right? You won't find them in the bible. You will find them in the writings of the Reformationists (Luther created them) in the 16th Century.


Trying to convince me that it all was just one big misunderstanding that lead to the reformation and beyond, well is a bit amusing… if it were not for so many that were murdered for it

It wasn't a misunderstanding- it was many, many things. I'm happy to discuss them if you want. As for murder- I'm not sure what you are referring to. That seems to be a red herring.

[Artificial Intelligence]

You do realize where those terms come from right? You won't find them in the bible. You will find them in the writings of the Reformationists (Luther created them) in the 16th Century.



It wasn't a misunderstanding- it was many, many things. I'm happy to discuss them if you want. As for murder- I'm not sure what you are referring to. That seems to be a red herring.Actually I’m tired of hearing you say I don’t know what I’m talking about. It makes me want to reply with that condescending attitude right back at you. It shows that you not only don’t know what you are talking about but are also oblivious of history. Why don’t you go on over to the reformation board and speak of the blood baths following the reformation as being just a red herring. They’ll luv ya. Are you even a Catholic, or just a Universalist?

http://www.catholicconcerns.com/

:confused: :sigh: :sigh:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/worshipping_mary200.jpg

[cowboysfan1970]

Well I kinda figured that this would be your reply. It's usual.

Fist off, I have had close friends that were catholic. I grew up with Catholic friends. I have attended catholic mass when I was young, went with my catholic friends. Lastly, I don't hate catholics. Where in my post did I ever say I hated catholics??!?
Well, why do you think we reply that way? Because a lot of others will point fingers and attack without knowing the facts.

I wasn't pointing the finger at you personally saying that you hated Catholics. If you had then I would have called you out by name. But that said, those that do hate others or would condemn others because of what church they belong to are walking a very dangerous line. Personally I don't really go for the Pentecostal style of worship but if it works for them so be it. People can get so caught up in technicalities that they fail to see the big picture.

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Actually I’m tired of hearing you say I don’t know what I’m talking about. It makes me want to reply with that condescending attitude right back at you. It shows that you not only don’t know what you are talking about but are also oblivious of history. Why don’t you go on over to the reformation board and speak of the blood baths following the reformation as being just a red herring. They’ll luv ya. Are you even a Catholic, or just a Universalist?

http://www.catholicconcerns.com/

:confused: :sigh: :sigh:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/worshipping_mary200.jpg

Saying that you are uninformed about Catholicism isn't condescending. It is simply a statement of fact. You are saying Catholics believe things which they don't.

If you get your information from those websites, then it is pretty obvious why you are so misinformed. You ought to learn what Catholics believe, not what anti-Catholics websites say they do.

And yes, whatever blood baths you are talking about is a red herring. It has nothing to do with what we are discussing. That is you resorting to emotional appeals instead of actually staying on topic.

[Artificial Intelligence]

Saying that you are uninformed about Catholicism isn't condescending. It is simply a statement of fact. You are saying Catholics believe things which they don't.

If you get your information from those websites, then it is pretty obvious why you are so misinformed. You ought to learn what Catholics believe, not what anti-Catholics websites say they do.

And yes, whatever blood baths you are talking about is a red herring. It has nothing to do with what we are discussing. That is you resorting to emotional appeals instead of actually staying on topic.So a site by an ex-nun does not count? Tag here simply as “anti-catholic” (Catholic hater?) and sweep it all under the rug. Sounds more like what a cult member would rationalize. First you say I don't know what I'm talking about, then you say she is just anti-Catholic so can't be taken seriously. You don't see it, do you? It's a no win situation, though for the both of us :sigh:

You think the blood baths were inconsequential to the subject or topic, but you are fatally wrong. You didn’t even know it took place, oblivious of history. Sadly, that is often how history repeats itself, in that what we learn from history is that we learn nothing. That’s why it concerns me, up there on the level of holocaust deniers.

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

So a site by an ex-nun does not count?

Not unless the information given is accurate. A person claiming to be a 'former nun' does not count as a reliable source. Not to mention that Mary Ann Collins perhaps doesn't exist. http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=1799
She makes no mention of what her religious order was. Nevertheless, whomever is writing as Collins claims they were in the noviate for two years- which is not what I'd call a 'nun'. A novice is someone that just joined a religious order and is considering formerly joining.


Tag here simply as “anti-catholic” (Catholic hater?) and sweep it all under the rug. Sounds more like what a cult member would rationalize. First you say I don't know what I'm talking about, then you say she is just anti-Catholic so can't be taken seriously. You don't see it, do you? It's a no win situation, though for the both of us :sigh:

I have no problems when information presented are accurate criticisms of what the Catholic Church believes. But when you say the Catholic Church is bad because it teaches you should do X, when it doesn't, or it actually teaches not to do X, there is a serious problem here. I don't care what your source is, or whether or not the site is anti-Catholic- but if you have something to say against Catholics- it should at least be able what they teach. That having been said, anti-Catholic sites are virtually never accurate.

You think the blood baths were inconsequential to the subject or topic, but you are fatally wrong. You didn’t even know it took place, oblivious of history. Sadly, that is often how history repeats itself, in that what we learn from history is that we learn nothing. That’s why it concerns me, up there on the level of holocaust deniers.

It has nothing to do with the discussion, but I find it somewhat amusing that you equate pointing out your red herring equal to holocaust denial. Wow.

[Wade Smith]

Saying that you are uninformed about Catholicism isn't condescending. It is simply a statement of fact. You are saying Catholics believe things which they don't.

If you get your information from those websites, then it is pretty obvious why you are so misinformed. You ought to learn what Catholics believe, not what anti-Catholics websites say they do.

And yes, whatever blood baths you are talking about is a red herring. It has nothing to do with what we are discussing. That is you resorting to emotional appeals instead of actually staying on topic.


Catholics need to get saved.
The Pope needs to repent and believe the Gospel in Jesus' name.
Get Jesus.
Toss all those stupid icons and statues out the window, and cry out to Jesus with a pure heart fervently.

"Use not vain repetitions as the heathen do, for they THINK they shall be heard for their much speaking."

Ask Jesus to save you and forgive your sin and vain religion.
Ask the heavenly Father to fill you with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of tongues in Jesus' name. Ask the Lord for Power from on high in Jesus' name.

Ask the Lord to deliver you from Cain's vegetables, from the works of the flesh, from self efforts and self motivations, in the name of Jesus.


Forget Mary. Don't pray to Mary, or any other saint. They can't hear you, and the only times in scripture that anyone "prayed" to another believer, they were rebuked.

Mary was just a woman God happened to use because she was in the right place at the right time and from the right family. She is not the "mother of God" nor the "Queen of Heaven", nor is she "holy" in and of herself, and she was not virgin born.

Catholics, repent and believe the gospel.
Confess the sin of blasphemy and vain religion and works of the flesh.

God has but one sacrifice for sin, and that is "Jesus Christ, the 'Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the World'."

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Catholics need to get saved.
The Pope needs to repent and believe the Gospel in Jesus' name.
Get Jesus.

The Pope does believe in the Gosepl.

Toss all those stupid icons and statues out the window, and cry out to Jesus with a pure heart fervently.

Why do you call them stupid?

"Use not vain repetitions as the heathen do, for they THINK they shall be heard for their much speaking."

Yes, and?

Ask Jesus to save you and forgive your sin and vain religion.
Ask the heavenly Father to fill you with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of tongues in Jesus' name. Ask the Lord for Power from on high in Jesus' name.

So you converted to Christianity in order to gain power and then demanded a sign from God of this power?


Forget Mary. Don't pray to Mary, or any other saint. They can't hear you, and the only times in scripture that anyone "prayed" to another believer, they were rebuked.

Are you saying Christians aren't allowed to ask each other for prayers?
As for saints not being able to hear- the bible indicates otherwise. It plainly states that when a sinner repents, all of Heaven rejoices- so it seems they are aware of what is going on.

Mary was just a woman God happened to use because she was in the right place at the right time and from the right family. She is not the "mother of God" nor the "Queen of Heaven", nor is she "holy" in and of herself, and she was not virgin born.

Catholics don't claim Mary was virgin born, where are you getting your information?
I am saddened that you think God 'uses' people. Mary was the mother of God, unless you deny that Jesus is the Son of God. She is the mother of Jesus and Jesus is God.

God has but one sacrifice for sin, and that is "Jesus Christ, the 'Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the World'."

That's what Catholics believe. Do you know that Catholics actually say the line you quoted at every Mass?

[cowboysfan1970]

Catholics need to get saved.
Catholics are saved.

Let me get this straight; all Catholics and Orthodox Christians aren't saved and are without a doubt going straigt to hell, but you aren't of course. That would mean that everyone before The Reformation went to hell too. Would I be right in assuming that? If that's what you really believe then that's an extremely prideful, arrogent attitude. One thing God despises is Pride. No one has the spiritual athority to condemn anyone for being in a different denomination than them and anyone who does isn't acting in the spirit of Christ.

Is your house clean? Are you free of sin? If not then you have no right or place to condemn anyone else. Rememeber this, when you point the finger at someone there are three pointing back at you.

[Wade Smith]

The Pope does believe in the Gosepl.

No he doesn't. If he did he wouldn't hold contradictory beliefs and go around making "leagues" with the enemy.



Why do you call them stupid?


Because its idolatry, but you don't realize that, being blind as a bat.


Yes, and?

Oh, don't play stupid with me. You know what I'm talking about. The Catholics turned the "model prayer" into a vain repetition, along with your other pointless chants.

The Father seeks those who worship in "Spirit and in Truth," not religion and heirarchies.



So you converted to Christianity in order to gain power and then demanded a sign from God of this power?

No, Christ promised this power, as shown in the Gospels and in the book of Acts. I obeyed the command and sought him for this Gift after my salvation, as he commanded them. "Ye shall be imbued with POWER after the Holy Spirit is come upon you." I don't "think" I'm saved, I KNOW I'm saved.

It isn't about "seeking a sign". Jesus said the signs SHALL follow them that believe. Not "maybe".

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit, who is the Comforter, would speak of HIM (Jesus), not mary.

The Spirit of God gives glory to Jesus, not Mary.

God does not give his glory to man or woman.

But catholics worship statues and pools of water, as the brother even posted a picture of one such idolatrous act.

Jesus said, "He who drinks of the water that I shall give will never thirst again."


Are you saying Christians aren't allowed to ask each other for prayers?

Strawman. You are defending the sin of necromancy by trying to compare it to intercessory prayer and laying on of hands among living believers on earth.

NOWHERE in the Bible does ANYBODY pray to a departed saint, and the few times that a believer starts to do something like that, either Jesus or that saint rebukes the believer for having done so.

I can show you the passages if you like. I can also show you where Jesus rebuked Mary at least two times that I can think of.


As for saints not being able to hear- the bible indicates otherwise. It plainly states that when a sinner repents, all of Heaven rejoices- so it seems they are aware of what is going on.

You are refering to this passage.

Luke 15:7
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

However, you, and the Pope, forgot to read 3 verses down, where we see Jesus is not referring to departed saints, but rather the angelic host in heaven.

Luke 15:10
Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.


Catholics don't claim Mary was virgin born, where are you getting your information?
Some of them definitely do, I've seen it in debates on internet forums all the time, unfortunately I'm banned from the main one I have in mind.

But oh yes they do teach that, you just may not admit it, plus they have changed the way they say it also.

Mary was not sinless, and I'll show you the words of her own mouth recorded in the Bible to prove it.

46And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

47And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.


Here "blessed" is that which is pronounced "Blest". That is, "Fortunate"

Makarios - "supremely blest, fortunate, well off".

As opposed to that which applies to Christ, "Bless-ed".

eulogetos - "Adorable", which only applies to God.

Mary is not "bless-ed" she is "blest," Which is a HUGE difference.

Mary was not sinless. She her self said that she needed a saviour, who is Jesus.


So when those nuns say thier little chant, "Hail Mary full of Grace, Bless-ed art thou among women..."

They are blaspheming on two counts actually.

Mary is not "Bless-ed".

Mary is not "full of Grace."

Only JESUS is blessed, and only JESUS is "full of Grace".



I am saddened that you think God 'uses' people. Mary was the mother of God, unless you deny that Jesus is the Son of God. She is the mother of Jesus and Jesus is God.

Mary was not the "mother of God". She was the mother of the "man" Jesus, but she was not the "mother of God". Jesus was 100% man, but he was also God, but Mary is not "mother of God". That is blasphemy to say that she was.

She was the mother of the body, that vessel of clay, who was the man Jesus.

She was not the mother of eternal God, who is "logos", who is the word that dwelt among us.

Jesus said he was the "Only Begotten of the Father."

He never once said, "Mary is my mother." nor referred to her in any way giving her status as "mother of God." Never!

That is a false teaching and an abomination.


That's what Catholics believe. Do you know that Catholics actually say the line you quoted at every Mass?

So what? I can show you a couple devil worshippers and child molesters who are ing jail serviing multiple life sentences, and THEY said it all the time. And your own priests and bishops are among those who do similar things, but the vatican buys out the police and prosecuters every time.

Get real.

"Not everyone that saith unto me 'Lord, Lord' will enter in to the Kingdom of Heaven, but him that doeth the will of my Father which is in Heaven."

[Wade Smith]

Catholics are saved.

Let me get this straight; all Catholics and Orthodox Christians aren't saved and are without a doubt going straigt to hell, but you aren't of course. That would mean that everyone before The Reformation went to hell too. Would I be right in assuming that? If that's what you really believe then that's an extremely prideful, arrogent attitude. One thing God despises is Pride. No one has the spiritual athority to condemn anyone for being in a different denomination than them and anyone who does isn't acting in the spirit of Christ.

The reformation happened because certain people finally got sick and tired of being in a dead chuirch that left the Lord centuries before.

I'm not saying "nobody" in the cahtolic church was ever saved, but you decieve yourself if you think people can live the way the catholicism has existed for centuries, and at the same time be born again.

God can save anybody that'll really seek him as someone other than a sock puppet God on a stick.

God isn't into vain religion, he's into relationship through faith.

I know catholics who think you're insane if you say you "heard" God, or had a dream or vision from God, or had a witness in your spirit from God. They think I'm crazy because I say, "God's not dead, he is alive. He has a relationship with his children. He's not some unknowable God that you chant the same old hogwash to every day and "hope" he hears."


The reformation happened because God spoke to people and said, "Come out from among them and be ye HOLY, for I am HOLY."

The reformation happened because people began to read the Bible for themselves and seek God for themselves, instead of being fed a mindless dead religion owned and operated by priests who went around in long robes and made broad their phylacteries and the borders of their garments; who "loved to have the pre-eminence over them".


Is your house clean? Are you free of sin? If not then you have no right or place to condemn anyone else.

Everybody needs to get saved. Pointing out a particular person or group is not "condemnation".

Jesus said the world is condemned already.

People who do not know Jesus as someone more than a religious ceremony are not saved, and hence, "condemned already". Has nothing to do with my oppinion. Jesus said it, not me.

Like I said in the previous post, Jesus told the woman at the well, "The True worshippers worship in Spirit and in Truth," Not "Vain tradition recieved from your fathers," like the Jews of old.


You know what? I am proud.

I am PROUD that Jesus Loved me so much that he gave his life and died on the Cross for me.

I am proud of my God who saved my life and my soul from hell, and I'll stand up and say, "Thus saith the Lord," according to his word.

I am PROUD of the fact that he "loved me and gave himself for me," and that he "sent gifts unto men."

Rememeber this, when you point the finger at someone there are three pointing back at you.

GOOD.

"Woe is unto me if I preach not the Gospel."

[cowboysfan1970]

I'm not saying "nobody" in the cahtolic church was ever saved, but you decieve yourself if you think people can live the way the catholicism has existed for centuries, and at the same time be born again.
Let me make this simple, answer these questions:

Are all the people currently that are Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, and Russian Orthodox going to hell?
Am I going to hell?
Are you going to hell?
Are people in your church going to hell?
Does your church have it all figured out and has everything right?

You should be able to answer those with yes or no answers.

[Artificial Intelligence]

Does your church have it all figured out and has everything right?That sounds like... you mean as in no one has it figured out?

[Wade Smith]

Let me make this simple, answer these questions:

Are all the people currently that are Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, and Russian Orthodox going to hell?

Almost all. Yeah. Because they don't know Jesus as LORD and SAVIOR. They just know him as a vain religious ritual.




Am I going to hell?
Hey, that's between you and Jesus.

But I'm telling you, if Jesus is not LORD in your life personally, then he is also not SAVIOR, because Jesus said no man can serve two masters. You can't get the Savior without the LORD and MASTER

And I don't care what your priest told you, if You have not personally got with the Lord in prayer and seriously confessed your sin to him personally, and asked him to Save you in Jesus' name, well, I don't care how long you've been in catholicism.

Salvation comes through a personal confession and repentance and belief in the Gospel. A personal invitation of Jesus Christ to be LORD and MASTER and SAVIOR. All or nothing. He isn't going to be one or the other.


Are you going to hell?

Nope.

Because I know that Jesus is my Lord and Master and Savior.

"I know that I know that Jesus is real
The warmth of his love I feel.
He taught me how to live in peace,
And I know that I know he's real."

Not "think", not "guess", and not "hope so". I KNOW in whom I have believed.


Are people in your church going to hell?

No doubt. Because, like anything, there are those who simply stand around at church not knowing or understanding anything that goes on.

Jesus was God, the best preacher who ever lived, and yet most of his original disciples died lost.

They all packed up and left, other than the 12, because they were spiritually dead and refused to hear the truth when it was given to them.

Think of that. 3 years following God himself around, and they all packed up and left when he started talking about eating his flesh and drinking his blood.

But you catholics don't even know what he was talking about.



Does your church have it all figured out and has everything right?

The church I'm going to right now, the Lord has sent me there BECAUSE of the fact that they don't have everything right.

That's what people like me do. I'm not a satellite Christian, and the Lord God deliver me from the times I make the mistake of doing it.

But Catholicism is nothing BUT satellite Christianity. The blind lead the blind and they both fall in the ditch. You've been following the Pope and Bishop for so long, corporately at least, that you don't know God. Like I said last post, I'm sure there's a few somewhere, but God calls them out of that false religion eventually.


You should be able to answer those with yes or no answers.

I know you think I just made that testimony up earlier about the man of God I mentioned.

Well, I didn't know it, but he has put his testimony on video on youtube.

And no, this guys ministry is not the one I'm at right now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHM9OMwAh2U


Now I want you to get something here, people who don't believe me. Because this brother isn't ashamed to tell you what God has saved him from. He isn't ashamed to tell you the Gospel either.

Let me ask you something, reader.

I'm not promoting the man, "brother Joe", because he'll tell you that it isn't him, it's Christ that liveth in him.

But I'm asking you one simple question about yourself and your pastor:

This video was taken when they were intending to film a sermon, I suppose, and the opening prayer may as well have been a sermon.

Do you pray like this?
Does your pastor pray like this?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNqz_HlP9PU


That is what Relationship with Jesus Christ will do for you.

Not repeating the "model prayer" mindlessly every day and still not understanding it, but praying from the heart spontaneously just like you talk to a spouse. That is the relationship Christians are supposed to have with the Lord.

I know one reason why they made this video and put it on the internet, and this is it.

You simply do NOT see a pastor pray like that in almost any church that I have ever been in.

But this is how the apostles prayed, and this is how the Lord prayed, and its how David and others prayed in the Psalms. This was not rehearsed. This was not mindless droning a habitual prayer. This was a man speaking the Word of God in prayer from the heart. God is a Spirit and must be worshipped in Spirit and in Truth.

This is what you do not see in Catholicism AT ALL, and you see it less and less among protestants any more.

Instead, its either a pre-memorized prayer or a feel good 30 second prayer without deep intercession and without a real heart conviction.

The point of this was not to promote the man, but to promote Christ and the prayer life that the Holy Spirit wants in each of us. Prayer and relationship with God is much more than repeating the same words over and over every time.

[Artificial Intelligence]

And what I mean by "has it figured out" I'm speaking of salvation, because that is more the direction of this conversation. Do you know who is saved? If you really know that, yes you know everything, all of it. It's all that really matters. But some are wrong... they really know everything about something else. So it still stands 5-5 for me with that list.

[cowboysfan1970]

Hey, that's between you and Jesus.

Do you pray like this?
Does your pastor pray like this?

It's a simple question, I'm I going to hell, yes or no?
If you don't pray just exactly like that, is that person going to hell, yes or no?
Is your church perfect and infallable, yes or no?
Is your preacher/paston perfect and infallable, yes or no?
Are Baptists going to hell, yes or no?
Pentecostals, yes or no?
Church of Christ, yes or no?
Anglican, yes or no?
Lutheran, yes or no?
other Non denominational, yes or no?
Should Catholics, Orthodox, and others be made to believe what you do, yes or no?
If they refuse, should they be eliminated, yes or no?
If you were drowning and a Catholic or some other person that you say is going to hell were to offer you a hand, would you take it, or would you drown, confident in the fact that you didn't take Satan's hand, yes or no?
Are you spiritually better than me and everyone else that doesn't believe what you do or worship like you do, yes or no?
Are you more Holy than me, yes or no?

[Wade Smith]

You know something cowboysfan 1970, you miss the point, but I'll address your questions.

But no, I will not answer with a one word answer, as not even Jesus did that. You are just playing word games and trying to justify yourself by attempting to make me look bad.

It's a simple question, I'm I going to hell, yes or no?


If you have not:

1) Repented of your sin.

2) Believed that God is real and that Jesus was the Only Begotten Son of God.

3) Invited him to forgive you, save you, and be LORD of you life.


If you have not done those things, then I don't care who you are nor of what denomination or non-denomination. If you haven't done those things and REALLY know him and serve him, then regardless of who you are, you will go to hell.


If you don't pray just exactly like that, is that person going to hell, yes or no?
You missed the point. I didn't say someone needed to pray exactly like that. I don't pray those exact words when I pray, nor does that man. He prays differently every time much like myself.

What I was talking about is the fire and the desire and the love of God. Not some vain religion.

Even the Muslim's pray 5 times a day, religious people. Even the pagans perform ritual worships of their evil demonic inspired gods, whch are no gods. But they aren't saved by it.


Is your church perfect and infallable, yes or no?


No, and they don't claim to be.

But the Catholic church claims the Pope is infallible, and I rebuke that lying devil in the name of Jesus.


But I do not lie when I tell you this. "Brother Joe" will tell you to your face, as will others I could name, that they were absolutely forbidden to read the Bible for themselves.

That's why he made the remark, "When I started studying the Bible I found out they (Catholic church) didn't teach me anything about him (the Lord)."


Is your preacher/paston perfect and infallable, yes or no?
No, and the moment he ever claims to be, I'l rebuke him too.


Are Baptists going to hell, yes or no?

Ok, see the first part I responded to above, but I'll answer you.

Yeah, a lot of "baptists" are going to hell. Not all of them, but I'd wager the majority.

They went into the water a dry devil, and came up a wet one, because they had faith in water baptism instead of the only begotten of the Father.


Pentecostals, yes or no?
Church of Christ, yes or no?
Anglican, yes or no?
Lutheran, yes or no?
other Non denominational, yes or no?
Hey, if you want me to address them all individually, the standard of going to heaven or hell is having a real relationship with our LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST.

"Why call ye me Lord, Lord and do not what I say?"

But I'm going to say this again. A real christian can't stay in some of these false denominations for very long, else they're going to fall away. Some of these churches and denominations absolutely do not preach enough about Jesus to even get someone saved.

I'll say it again, just like "Brother Joe" under Catholicism, some of these churches do not teach the Bible enough to even lead someone to Jesus.


Should Catholics, Orthodox, and others be made to believe what you do, yes or no?
If at all possible.


If they refuse, should they be eliminated, yes or no?
If they trust in THEMSELVES that they are righteous, then they have already eliminated themselves, denying the true doctrine of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


If you were drowning and a Catholic or some other person that you say is going to hell were to offer you a hand, would you take it, or would you drown, confident in the fact that you didn't take Satan's hand, yes or no?

This is a completely irrelevant question, but I'll answer it anyway.

yeah, I'd take his hand,just as I'd take the hand of a police officer or any other person, believer or unbeliever.

Then I'd preach to him about Jesus when I got out of the water.



Are you spiritually better than me and everyone else that doesn't believe what you do or worship like you do, yes or no?
If I say "yes" you will call me self righteous and not believe a word I say.

If I say "no" you will be like, "then leave everyone else alone."

Yet I cannot leave anyone else alone because I know by experience and testimony that the vast majority of both Catholic and Protestant "Christians" are such in name only.

I have the righteousness of Christ through faith through his death and resurrection, and through repentance unto salvation.

If any one knows Jesus as only a religion and ritual, then YES, "I am not ashamed of the Gospel". If all somebody knows is ritual and ceremony, then by the grace of God I say without contradiction that yes, I am better than them. Not in my own self, but because Christ has imputed his righteousness to me, whereas they are yet in their sin due to self righteousness and "vain religion recieved from their fathers."


Are you more Holy than me, yes or no?

I don't know you.

Besides all that, in my own self I am nothing. You still miss the point and ask irrelevant questions friend.

It isn't about my holiness it's about Christ which liveth in me.

I am not ashamed to say that if any man doesn't have Christ, then by all means, according to the Scritures, I have the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. Not of my self, but of God.

The righteousness of God is certainly greater than self righteousess.

It's certainly greater than unrighteousness.
It's certainly greater than false religions and false doctrines.


Jesus said, "Except your righteousness shall exceed that of the Pharisees, you shall in no wise enter in to the kingdom of heaven."

The Righteousness of Christ exceeds the righteousness of the pharisee and the scribe and the levite and the churchian.

[Wade Smith]

See, the problem with this thread is many denominations represent a denial that holiness matters.


They either have faith in their works, or else they have no works at all.


You got some churches that think it's ok to do anything at all, and you can never convince them no matter how much scripture you show them, they think its ok to do all these sins, because "we arn't under 'legalism'". They think its ok to "sin that grace may abound," But Paul said "God forbid." Jesus said, "Why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not what I say?"

Justification by faith, but faith without works is dead.

Saying a repititious prayer and eating some crackers once a week, or once a month, is not "works". In fact, very often, it can be witchcraft if you do it with the wrong heart. Paul said that some fell asleep early, and others were sick because they drank of the cup unworthily.

When James says, "Faith without works is dead," he is talking about the Fruit of the Spirit: Love, joy, peace (not compromise), patience, meekness, gentleness, brotherlykindness. He was talking about giving to the poor and preaching to the prisoners and the orphans and widows and things of this nature.


Faith without works is dead.

But works without faith and RELATIONSHIP and obedience (obedience is greater than sacrifice), is just vain religion, and like the Jews of old, "christians" are going to hell by the millions, because they had faith in some religious ceremony rather than Faith in Jesus Christ and his death and resurrection.

[cowboysfan1970]

If I say "yes" you will call me self righteous and not believe a word I say.

I don't know you.
I don't have to call you self righteous.

Which means that you have no right to pass judgment on me or anyone else.

You don't sound like a Christian, you sound like a millitant Islamic fundamentalist. They believe they are right without question and all others in the world should either convert to what they believe immediately or die. Those that bomb buildings and kill innocents in the name of Allah believe that they are also going straight to Heaven and all that they kill are worshipers of Satan and false religions and are going straight to hell. You are one of the most condecinding, arrogent, self righteous, and judgemental people I have ever come across in my life and I've come across some big ones. You might think so but your attitude certainly isn't a Christian one. Because someone worships with a different style than you do you condemn them to hell. Only God has that type of spiritual athority, not you. How dare you condemn me or anyone else! You are bearing false witness against me, the billions around the world that are Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, and who knows how many others. You are also commiting blasphemy by assuming powers that only God has. You are also supporting lies by pushing the fervent propaganda that is based in lies and misrepresentations by others. Spiritual Pride I don't think I have to mention at all. It's obvious to anyone who reads what you post. Not to mention being rude and offensive.

Here's something that I bet blows your mind; I used to be a Protestant. I was taught the Law and was beaten down with it. I had no idea who Christ really was and my relationship with God was based on works and performance. I had no concept of the Holy Spirit or Salvation through the Grace of God or the sacrifice of Christ. I would love to see you try and defend some of the things I was taught. I fell away from churches and three years ago started going with a friend. For the first time in my life I now know what a real relationship with God and Christ is and for the first time I feel the presence of the Holy Spirit. I was taught some wild things by a handful of Protestants but I have no hard feelings towards any of the others and hold no hate in my heart or feel the need to convince them that they are wrong and are going to hell. I also learned that many of the things that I had been told about Catholics to discredit them were totally wrong.

I hope that God and Christ forgive you for what you have done against me and others and don't hold it against you on the day of your judgement. I hope that Christ reaches your hard heart and shows you that the greatest commandment to "love each other as I have loved you" also means not judging people that worship differently than you do. Someone can be different from you and not be wrong. Unless you reach out and try to rebuild some of the bridges that you have burned in your self righteous glee, I don't want to have anything to do with you again, but I will still pray for you.

[Wade Smith]

I don't have to call you self righteous.

Which means that you have no right to pass judgment on me or anyone else.

You don't sound like a Christian,

No, I don't sound like a churchian, and that offends you. Because I tell you what's on my mind, and what the Bible says about things, instead of just being a "good little idiot sheep" and "sit down shut up and pay tithe", like everyone wants me to do.


you sound like a millitant Islamic fundamentalist. They believe they are right without question and all others in the world should either convert to what they believe immediately or die. Those that bomb buildings and kill innocents in the name of Allah believe that they are also going straight to Heaven and all that they kill are worshipers of Satan and false religions and are going straight to hell.

comparing me to a terrorist is just completely ridiculous.

You are one of the most condecinding, arrogent, self righteous, and judgemental people I have ever come across in my life and I've come across some big ones. You might think so but your attitude certainly isn't a Christian one. Because someone worships with a different style than you do you condemn them to hell.Only God has that type of spiritual athority, not you. How dare you condemn me or anyone else!

Jesus said they that do not believe are condemned already.

Do I have a right to quote that verse and actually apply it? Yes.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


Muslims and any other non-christian who don't repent are condemned already. Period.

They aren't your buddy, they aren't your friend. Paul said to have nothing to do with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove(rebuke) them.

The only business christians have hanging around unbelievers is preaching the Gospel to them. "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."

"christian" people who think their church or a ritual saves them, they are condemned already.

I mean, the pharisees and the scribes and the priests, they had all the "religion" in the world, but didn't Know God when they were staring him right in the face. Had no clue who in the world he was.


You are bearing false witness against me,

No I'm not. I even said I didn't know you.

You are in fact bearing false witness against me.

I didn't condemn you.

But you were trying to force me to answer on your terms, but because I do NOT claim to know every person's heart, I laid out what the Bible says about the issues.

I laid out what the Biblical requirement of salvation is, which is Repentance, faith in the fact that Jesus was the Son of God who died on a Cross and rose from the dead on the third day to forgive sins, AND acceptance of him as Lord and Savior. For "Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

But that must be qualified, because the "devils believe also and tremble."

"Believing" in Jesus is not enough. He must be personal Lord and Savior.



the billions around the world that are Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, and who knows how many others. You are also commiting blasphemy by assuming powers that only God has.

And what powers are those? If you are going to accuse me of blasphemy, then bring a specific accusation.

But if they believe their church saves them, or if they believe some ritual saves them, then they aren't saved. It's as simple as that.

Me telling you that isn't me assuming unscriptural authority, not at all.

The whole book of Galatians is written on this foolishness.

People believing ceremonies could save or sanctify, and Paul rebuked them for it and wrote a 6 chapter letter setting them straight, but you call me "Self Righteous" for teaching the same thing...


You are also supporting lies by pushing the fervent propaganda that is based in lies and misrepresentations by others.

If you are referring to Brother Joe's testimony, well buddy, I don't need his testimony only. I have the testimony of others, and I have the testimony of the Holy Spirit and the Bible when I turn on EWTN and see the mindless droning of those catholics.

And if you call Brother Joe a false witness, present your evidence.

I've known the man all my life, and today, he's ten times the Christian as any of these jokers that stand behind the pulpit, in both catholicism and protestantism. He's never asked an offering, nor did my dad ever ask an offering, nor have I. "Freely you recieved, freely give."

There's no selfish motiviation whatsoever, because there's nothing to gain from it, except souls of people who repent and believe the gospel, that is.

Now you tell me, readers.

What looks more like the book of acts church and the synoptic gospels church?

The Catholic Church?

Or a small gathering in a truck stop that hands out bibles for free?


What looks more like the Book of Acts?

A mega church that charges $40 for a bible commentary?

Or a small gathering that hands out bibles for free?


You think I'm a hypocrite for saying anything at all, but judge the fruit, and judge righteous judgment. "By their fruits you shall know them."

False preachers and hirelings sell you things, or build church heirarchies designed to manipulate people.



Spiritual Pride I don't think I have to mention at all. It's obvious to anyone who reads what you post. Not to mention being rude and offensive.

Yeah, because we all know Jesus never stepped on anyone's toes. We all know Paul and Peter just walked around limp wristed and never pointed out sin and never called a fox a fox.

No, wait a minute.

Jesus said, "As many as I love I rebuke and chasten." and Paul wrote, "Come out from among them and be ye holy." and "they that sin rebuke before all that others may fear also."

I'm sorry, the Gospel always offends the religious and self righteous. It always offends organized "churchianity". I mean, i've been banned from internet forums for quoting the Bible. Just make a thread that quotes the bible for the opening post, and eventually get banned for it.

Why? Because churchians don't want to hear it.

"God is a Spirit and must be worshipped in Spirit and in Truth."


Here's something that I bet blows your mind; I used to be a Protestant. I was taught the Law and was beaten down with it. I had no idea who Christ really was and my relationship with God was based on works and performance. I had no concept of the Holy Spirit or Salvation through the Grace of God or the sacrifice of Christ. I would love to see you try and defend some of the things I was taught.

I won't defend what you were taught, because first of all I don't know what you were taught.

And second, like I already said before, most of the protestant churches are just as bad. I'm a Christian. I protest the protestants as much as the catholics, really more. because, "To whom much has been given much is required."

I'm in the process of writing letters to some of the Pastors at the church I attend, because they are abusing their authority, selling the Word of God at markup prices.

God doesn't give his glory to another, and the Lord Jesus isn't happy when people abuse his sheep for gain.

I fell away from churches and three years ago started going with a friend. For the first time in my life I now know what a real relationship with God and Christ is and for the first time I feel the presence of the Holy Spirit. I was taught some wild things by a handful of Protestants but I have no hard feelings towards any of the others and hold no hate in my heart or feel the need to convince them that they are wrong and are going to hell. I also learned that many of the things that I had been told about Catholics to discredit them were totally wrong.

Name some.

If someone told you they had some pink elephants in a closet somewhere, well, I myself would find that hard to believe.

But if they pointed out some of the white elephants, those I believe.



So, are you telling me that all the former catholics I have known, many of whom will tell you, as I said earlier, that they were even forbidden to read the Bible. ARe you telling me they are all liars? Are you telling me brother Joe is a liar?

This was the standard practice of the Catholic Church. They literally forbade people to read the Bible.


I hope that God and Christ forgive you for what you have done against me and others and don't hold it against you on the day of your judgement. I hope that Christ reaches your hard heart and shows you that the greatest commandment to "love each other as I have loved you" also means not judging people that worship differently than you do. Someone can be different from you and not be wrong. Unless you reach out and try to rebuild some of the bridges that you have burned in your self righteous glee, I don't want to have anything to do with you again, but I will still pray for you.


Goodness. Self righteous glee?

I have nothing to gain by doing this. I don't want money or any other notariety.

You want to accuse me of self righteousness, but really the only thing you have against me is the fact that I was able to present evidence, in the form of the witness of another man, for my original statements against a particular denomination and its leaders.

Wow. You say I'm "self righteous" for pointing out false doctrine and false church heirarchies?

Jesus and the apostles and prophets did the same and more.

[cowboysfan1970]

comparing me to a terrorist is just completely ridiculous.
That's because you just didn't get it. You couldn't make the connection as to what I meant. It would be pointless for me to try and explain it because you would do your thing with it as usual.

I won't defend what you were taught, because first of all I don't know what you were taught.
I probably shouldn't be doing this because it just gives you what you want: attention, but I will anyway.

This are some of the beliefs that I was raised with:

Dancing is a sin.
Drinking is a sin.
Playing with cards is a sin.
You aren't supposed to chew gum on Sundays.
Women aren't supposed to wear pants, only skirts.
Women were frowned upon for wearing much make up or any at all (because that's what prostitutes did).
You weren't to do any "worldly" activities such as going to the movies, listening to secular music, etc.
Sex was solely and only for procreation. If you were doing it because you were hot for your spouse then that was a huge sin. It was lust. Sex was to be rare and done with as fast as possible.
We weren't supposed to laugh or tell jokes. Life was too serious for that kind of futility.
Avoid any "appearance of evil." That was a cover-all for just about everything else.

I know you're going to respond because you can't resist the opportunity so the floor is your's. Do your worst.

[fabulous beast]

Regardless of which "STYLE" you choose to follow in worship, Man is man. Evil can get you no matter who you are.
So do not foolishly think that christians are being "sold" holy rewards from churches and televison.
Man is man. Men get greedy.
the devil is tricky.
Look at Islam.
Islam is very much like our beleifs. Preaching love and what not. Their profit apparently "threw these words up from Allah". It was explained to me as he was throwing up it, it was very distubing and gross and they cloaked him so noone could see. these words became their islamic bible. At least this is what I have been told.
Do you now see the devils works? Do you not think that while he was throwing up, this was demonic possesion? Creating a false religeon based on "good values", yet denouncing Christ as being the son of god. instead they call him a liar.

What Im getting out, is churches....should just be churches.
Follow the bible, pray with each other. Fellowship with each other. And then leave earthly traditions out of the church.
Church should be about what the bible says. A place of worship. Not fancy traditions we make up. this seperates and confuses us.
My opinon at least.
Take care

[plmarquette]

what's it all about ?
offense
pettiness
bigotry
pride
greed
mammon
immaturity