Why grape juice?

[Brother Charlie]

Hello. I was just wondering why Baptists use grape juice for their communion services. Now I do not want to get into a debate about the Real Prescence, but I do want to know why Baptists feel like they can edit a sign of the covenant like that. Remeber, Jesus said, "This is the new covenant in my blood." Why then do you use grape juice?

[BBAS 64]

Hello. I was just wondering why Baptists use grape juice for their communion services. Now I do not want to get into a debate about the Real Prescence, but I do want to know why Baptists feel like they can edit a sign of the covenant like that. Remeber, Jesus said, "This is the new covenant in my blood." Why then do you use grape juice?
Good Day, Abba

Was not the new covenant based on the "cup of Redemption" used the sader? Explain the phase here " in my Blood.. Would you be so kind as to post the Scripture you are using here.

Peace to u,

Bill

[@@Paul@@]

Hello. I was just wondering why Baptists use grape juice for their communion services. Now I do not want to get into a debate about the Real Prescence, but I do want to know why Baptists feel like they can edit a sign of the covenant like that. Remeber, Jesus said, "This is the new covenant in my blood." Why then do you use grape juice?
Without getting into the "ordinance" and who it was actually to,,, I'll just say I can remember with apple juice. ;)
1Co 11:25 KJV
(25) After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

[Brother Charlie]

Luke 22.19-20:
Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me."
And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you.

Just as the OT lambs were slaughtered as a way of renewing the covenant made with Moses on Mt Sinai, Christ was was slaughtered, but the difference is that he was slaughtered only once. And just as the Israelites ate the passover lamb to consummate the covenant, we Catholics eat the new lamb in the Mass.

[Andyman_1970]

As baptist though we tend to hang our hats on "we baptise" the way it was really done in Jesus day.

So why is it ok for us to "deviate" in how it was done in the 1st century (read here Seder meal)? I'm not trying to "stir the pot", but I am curious.

From what I have researched the only "accurate" beverage would be kosher grape juice which I have heard tastes like cough medicine.

Anyway, like I said, I'm not wanting to get into a big hairy knock down drag out, but I am curious.

[Lynn73]

Hello. I was just wondering why Baptists use grape juice for their communion services. Now I do not want to get into a debate about the Real Prescence, but I do want to know why Baptists feel like they can edit a sign of the covenant like that. Remeber, Jesus said, "This is the new covenant in my blood." Why then do you use grape juice?
Baptists aren't the only ones who use grape juice. Our church also does, as does I think many non-Catolic denominations.

[bigsierra]

Some Catholics use a certain type grape juice also, in instances of previous alcoholism, to keep from producing a temptation ;)

[@@Paul@@]

<Moderator removal of quote from improper post>


Thus the main purpose of communion is not for 'remeberance.'[/QUOTE]
1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

I disagree,,, thanks for your input.

[Andyman_1970]

Thats interesting. Where did you get this info? Sources please. In the bible it says "wine". What more info do you need?

Are you suggesting that in Jesus' time alcoholic beverages werent yet discovered?

You could start here: http://www.christianforums.com/t724911

You might post the same question over on the MJ board, those folks have a wealth of information on Hebrew practices and customs.

[BBAS 64]

Luke 22.19-20:


Just as the OT lambs were slaughtered as a way of renewing the covenant made with Moses on Mt Sinai, Christ was was slaughtered, but the difference is that he was slaughtered only once. And just as the Israelites ate the passover lamb to consummate the covenant, we Catholics eat the new lamb in the Mass.
Good Day, Abba

Thanks for the response.

Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me."
And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you.

We see that this verse is representing the Cup used in the Sader meal and the 8000 yr tradition of the passover meal. I think that Andy has given you good advise here. To better understand the historical implications of this passage go to those who have possed the traditions and history of this event for ever. That may help you to get the fullness of understanding which you seek.

Peace to u,

Bill

[jcright]

I've got a stupid question for ya...how do you know it was wine that was in the cup? Where exactly in the text do you see where it says wine was in the cup? I think I'm missing that verse. How do we know it wasn't filled with water?

[Cright]

Luke (NIV)17After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, "Take this and divide it among you. 18For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."
19And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."
20In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. 21But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table. 22The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed, but woe to that man who betrays him." 23They began to question among themselves which of them it might be who would do this. Luke (AMP)17And He took a cup, and when He had given thanks, He said, Take this and divide and distribute it among yourselves;
18For I say to you that from now on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine at all until the kingdom of God comes.
19Then He took a loaf [of bread], and when He had given thanks, He broke [it] and gave it to them saying, This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me. Luke (NKJV)17Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, "Take this and divide it among yourselves; 18for I say to you,[2 (http://www.biblegateway.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=LUKE%2B22&showfn=on&showxref=on&language=english&version=NKJV&x=7&y=7#footnote_738339907_2)] I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."
19And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me." We don't know it's wine in the cup.. we know it's a drink made w/ grapes, we can presume that since wine was used at celebrations it is possible it could be wine. I think that the importance of the act isn't what we are drinking but what it symbolizes and that we remember it. To be as biblical as possible I believe we should use a drink a drink made from the "fruit of the vine" which is grapes (fermented or not).

...all IMHO...

God Bless,
Carina

[CrystalBrooke]

i thought our church just used grape juice bc all the baptists down here think that alcohol is wrong. im learning a lot in reading this thread :D

[Crazy Liz]

Hello. I was just wondering why Baptists use grape juice for their communion services. Now I do not want to get into a debate about the Real Prescence, but I do want to know why Baptists feel like they can edit a sign of the covenant like that. Remeber, Jesus said, "This is the new covenant in my blood." Why then do you use grape juice?

i thought our church just used grape juice bc all the baptists down here think that alcohol is wrong. im learning a lot in reading this thread :D

Actually, I think Crystal has given the real answer to the question. The rest is rationalization and apologia.

Now, WRT "editing as sign of the covenant," try posting the same question in TAW, changing "Baptists" to "Orthodox" and "grape juice" to "leavened bread." ^_^ :o

The gospels use the phrase "fruit of the vine" and tell us this happened at (according to the synoptic gospels) or just before (according to John) Passover. Without modern methods of preservation, grape juice won't remain unfermented from its harvest season (fall) until Passover (spring). So do we know for sure whether Jesus used raised bread or flat bread (the Greek word used in all the NT accounts is the one that means raised bread) or whether he used wine or vinegar?

In both cases, there are differences of opinion about whether the product made with or without yeast is appropriate, for historical, aesthetic, hygenic and theological reasons. If pressed, you will find that all our churches will acknowledge that, while we each have a preference, communion may be celebrated with wine, grape juice or vinegar, and either raised or flat bread.

[eldermike]

I've got a stupid question for ya...how do you know it was wine that was in the cup? Where exactly in the text do you see where it says wine was in the cup? I think I'm missing that verse. How do we know it wasn't filled with water?
I think the one thing that can be understood from John the Baptist, wine is not necessary to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Lu 1:15
For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

I don't see an association with wine and communion. In fact it's wrong to even use grape juice, as if grape juice is between you and God's presence in your life, that's silly. I would say that if grape juice is somehow important to your walk with God, give that up also.

Being with God is God living in us. To remember the cross is the reason we have communion. One must bring the Holy Spirit to the table, He's not at the table, He's in you.

Mike

[Crazy Liz]

I think the one thing that can be understood from John the Baptist, wine is not necessary to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Lu 1:15
For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

I don't see an association with wine and communion. In fact it's wrong to even use grape juice, as if grape juice is between you and God's presence in your life, that's silly. I would say that if grape juice is somehow important to your walk with God, give that up also.

Being with God is God living in us. To remember the cross is the reason we have communion. One must bring the Holy Spirit to the table, He's not at the table, He's in you.

Mike

Mike, are you sure you're not a Quaker? ;)

[Crazy Liz]

You could start here: http://www.christianforums.com/t724911

You might post the same question over on the MJ board, those folks have a wealth of information on Hebrew practices and customs.

I just looked at that thread, and it is about whether one may use grape juice at a Passover seder. It does not mention communion at all.

[seebs]

I don't see an association with wine and communion. In fact it's wrong to even use grape juice, as if grape juice is between you and God's presence in your life, that's silly. I would say that if grape juice is somehow important to your walk with God, give that up also.

If you meet the Buddha in the road, kill him!

[Andyman_1970]

I just looked at that thread, and it is about whether one may use grape juice at a Passover seder. It does not mention communion at all.

Isnt' the Passover meal what Jesus and the Disciples were doing the Last Supper, where we get our communion from?

[Crazy Liz]

Isnt' the Passover meal what Jesus and the Disciples were doing the Last Supper, where we get our communion from?

We actually don't know that for sure. According to John, Jesus was crucified just as the Passover lambs were being slaughtered, so that would mean the Last Supper took place on the night before the Passover began. OTOH, the synoptics indicate it was the night of Passover.

Also, the word used for "bread" everywhere in the NT (the gospels and 1 Corinthians, at least) is the Greek word for ordinary, or raised bread, not the Greek word for flat bread or matzos.

So, for these two reasons, there is some uncertainty as to whether the Last Supper actually was a Passover seder. If you'd like to understand the arguments against it being a Passover seder, I'm sure you could find somebody in TAW who could explain it to you better than I could. This is considered important by some Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Rite Catholics, while most Christians either assume it was a Passover seder or are content to leave the question unanswered. All I know is it's not 100% certain according to the Bible for these two reasons. I'm one of those who is content to leave the question unanswered, although I kind of like the idea of using raised bread for communion "because Christ has risen." :D

[@@Paul@@]

Question: Does anyone else here feel like they should *NOT* take communion?

Do you believe it was an ordinance given to the church? or more like a "decree"?? or is not meant to be "observed" today at all (neither grape juice or wine)?

[seebs]

Question: Does anyone else here feel like they should *NOT* take communion?

Er, I do, but probably not for the obvious reason. There's a passage saying that whoever takes communion unworthily, not discerning the flesh, eats and drinks damnation, or words to that effect. Not being sure what this means, I abstain.

[@@Paul@@]

Er, I do, but probably not for the obvious reason. There's a passage saying that whoever takes communion unworthily, not discerning the flesh, eats and drinks damnation, or words to that effect. Not being sure what this means, I abstain.
Right,, it also says MANY are sick and SOME die (and it's not referring to bad grape juice)... :eek:

[eldermike]

Mike, are you sure you're not a Quaker? http://christianforums.com/images/smilies/wink.gif :D

Thanks, that made me smile

[eldermike]

Do you believe it was an ordinance given to the church? or more like a "decree"?? or is not meant to be "observed" today at all (neither grape juice or wine)?
I think we should do what the scripture tells us to do: remember. And in doing so we should be in the right spirit. We should have a short sin list by asking for forgivness and turn from the sin, lay it down at the cross and come to the table with a broken heart. But, it's not about me, it's about others, it's not about wine, or grape juice, it's about knowing that God wants me to be at that table and died on a cross to make it possible.

[P_G]

We actually don't know that for sure. According to John, Jesus was crucified just as the Passover lambs were being slaughtered, so that would mean the Last Supper took place on the night before the Passover began. OTOH, the synoptics indicate it was the night of Passover.

Also, the word used for "bread" everywhere in the NT (the gospels and 1 Corinthians, at least) is the Greek word for ordinary, or raised bread, not the Greek word for flat bread or matzos.

So, for these two reasons, there is some uncertainty as to whether the Last Supper actually was a Passover seder. If you'd like to understand the arguments against it being a Passover seder, I'm sure you could find somebody in TAW who could explain it to you better than I could. This is considered important by some Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Rite Catholics, while most Christians either assume it was a Passover seder or are content to leave the question unanswered. All I know is it's not 100% certain according to the Bible for these two reasons. I'm one of those who is content to leave the question unanswered, although I kind of like the idea of using raised bread for communion "because Christ has risen." :D



It absolutely would have been not only Matzoh but a special type of Matzoh kosher for Passover. We know this because the room that they ate in had already been prepaired for the passover

Luk 22:7 Then came the day of Chag HaMatzah on which it was necessary for the Pesach to be sacrificed.
Luk 22:8 And He sent Petros and Yochanan, saying, "Go and prepare the Pesach for us, that we may eat it."


Part of the preperation was and still is the cleaning of all kushrach (leven) from the place where the passover meal would be eaten. Thus in no way would they have brought into the building leven (raised bread specifically)

IN fact it would have been a very special matzoh that was carefully prepaired so as to drive all mosture from it To do so renders this bread both Pierced and Striped.

If you look at the extremely Jewish part of this last supper the whole story really takes on a whole new significance.

I really urge all of you that ever have an opportunity to do so to attend a Messianic Seder you will learn A LOT!


Blessings

Pastor George (The Messianic Mennonite!) :wave:

[GreenEyedLady]

Lets just get ONE thing strait here in this thread........
It was NOT the Last supper!! Christ ate after he arose. This is why many of us call it the Lord's supper, not the Last supper. Actually the term "last" supper, I have heard, came from the DiVincing painting.
GEL

[Crazy Liz]

Lets just get ONE thing strait here in this thread........
It was NOT the Last supper!! Christ ate after he arose. This is why many of us call it the Lord's supper, not the Last supper. Actually the term "last" supper, I have heard, came from the DiVincing painting.
GEL

:o I had to look and was surprised to find I was the one who said that. Must have been typing too fast! :sorry:

[Andyman_1970]

It absolutely would have been not only Matzoh but a special type of Matzoh kosher for Passover. We know this because the room that they ate in had already been prepaired for the passover

Luk 22:7 Then came the day of Chag HaMatzah on which it was necessary for the Pesach to be sacrificed.
Luk 22:8 And He sent Petros and Yochanan, saying, "Go and prepare the Pesach for us, that we may eat it."


Part of the preperation was and still is the cleaning of all kushrach (leven) from the place where the passover meal would be eaten. Thus in no way would they have brought into the building leven (raised bread specifically)

IN fact it would have been a very special matzoh that was carefully prepaired so as to drive all mosture from it To do so renders this bread both Pierced and Striped.

If you look at the extremely Jewish part of this last supper the whole story really takes on a whole new significance.

I really urge all of you that ever have an opportunity to do so to attend a Messianic Seder you will learn A LOT!


Blessings

Pastor George (The Messianic Mennonite!) :wave:

Awesome post Pastor George, as usual. :clap:

It is amazing how the events of the Scriptures come "alive" when you look at them from the perspective of 1st century Jew people, Jewish culture and Jewish tradition.

[BBAS 64]

It absolutely would have been not only Matzoh but a special type of Matzoh kosher for Passover. We know this because the room that they ate in had already been prepaired for the passover

Luk 22:7 Then came the day of Chag HaMatzah on which it was necessary for the Pesach to be sacrificed.
Luk 22:8 And He sent Petros and Yochanan, saying, "Go and prepare the Pesach for us, that we may eat it."


Part of the preperation was and still is the cleaning of all kushrach (leven) from the place where the passover meal would be eaten. Thus in no way would they have brought into the building leven (raised bread specifically)

IN fact it would have been a very special matzoh that was carefully prepaired so as to drive all mosture from it To do so renders this bread both Pierced and Striped.

If you look at the extremely Jewish part of this last supper the whole story really takes on a whole new significance.

I really urge all of you that ever have an opportunity to do so to attend a Messianic Seder you will learn A LOT!


Blessings

Pastor George (The Messianic Mennonite!) :wave:
Wonderful Pastor George,

I have seen one, and it changed my view of the whole Lord's supper in light of the Sader it takes on a whole new meaning which was forgien to me.

Peace to u,

Bill

[P_G]

Now was it wine?
Or was it "strong drink"

What we refer to as wine today is a much stronger beverage than what would
have been referred to as wine in biblical times. Now this is not to say that what was refered to as wine in that day did not have alcohol for surely it did.

The fermenting of fruit juice was a necessary thing. If you did not control the fermentation process it would turn into vinegar most times (A lesson we learned at Nehemiah Center when Miss Bonnie bought Welches Grape Juice instead of Keddem for our service. She did not know that Welches was not kosher so we did not use it. Well I found it in the back of the fridge and decided to have a glass. Big mistake! It was vinegar and not even good vinegar)

So we ferment this to allow the juice to form ethel alcohol which in small amounts is a dandy preservative. Remember in those days there was no refridgeration. You either preserved food or lost it. Milk was turned to various cheeses and juices into wine. This wine was about as strong as a weak beer today. This because they did not add aditional sugar to the mash. Adding sugar and yeast to the mash allows the alcohol making process to continue far beyond what would be natural (This what G-d had designed)

Now this process was known in Biblical times and the result is what we now translate into "strong drink" there is a huge difference between a beverage that is 1.5 - 3% alcohol to one that is 18 - 21 % alcohol.

So enough science and history given this then answer the question what does the Bible say about being partakers of strong drink? I will let you do that search for yourself. But just a hint while wine is at times spoken of well in the Bible - Strong drink never is.

Since today there is no need to preserve juice and because we see no good effect nor recomendation to drink strong drink (save for someone who is dying) in the Bible. Congregation Nehemiah Center does not use wine in it's services. Rather we use kosher grape juice (which by the way DOES NOT TASTE LIKE COUGH SYRUP) My personal prefference is Keddem but will use Maneshewitz or others. Even the Welches in the little bottles just NOT THE CARTON (that is for my wife :) )

Blessings

Pastor George

[Brother Charlie]

Now this process was known in Biblical times and the result is what we now translate into "strong drink" there is a huge difference between a beverage that is 1.5 - 3% alcohol to one that is 18 - 21 % alcohol.

Then how did people become drunk? Drink 20 gallons of grape juice?

Did they have any strong drinks at all in biblical times?

[P_G]

Then how did people become drunk? Drink 20 gallons of grape juice?

Did they have any strong drinks at all in biblical times?

Yes they did have strong drink in biblical times it is mentioned many times in the Bible. And yes you can get drunk on what they called wine which is NOT grape juice. But it is not nearly as strong as what we call wine today. Mind you I think you would be awefully sick from drinking it but yes you can get drunk from it.


PG :wave:

[Crazy Liz]

This wine was about as strong as a weak beer today. This because they did not add aditional sugar to the mash. Adding sugar and yeast to the mash allows the alcohol making process to continue far beyond what would be natural (This what G-d had designed)

This simply isn't true. Sugar is not added to today's wine. The sugar that is fermented is the natural sugar in the grapes. Now, I suppose if you wanted to make a very low-alcohol wine, you could harvest the grapes while still sour, so they would not have as much sugar to ferment. I'm not aware that this was done in biblical times. But having tasted Kosher wine, I can tell you for sure that modern Jewish vintners don't do anything like that! :sick:

Anyway, you certainly don't have to add sugar to wine to get the alcohol content of modern wine. There is plenty of sugar in the grapes to produce any wine you can buy today.

[P_G]

This simply isn't true. Sugar is not added to today's wine. The sugar that is fermented is the natural sugar in the grapes. Now, I suppose if you wanted to make a very low-alcohol wine, you could harvest the grapes while still sour, so they would not have as much sugar to ferment. I'm not aware that this was done in biblical times. But having tasted Kosher wine, I can tell you for sure that modern Jewish vintners don't do anything like that! :sick:

Anyway, you certainly don't have to add sugar to wine to get the alcohol content of modern wine. There is plenty of sugar in the grapes to produce any wine you can buy today.
Well Liz I respectfully disagree with you as one who in a past life has made wine. But we can disagree on this. I don't think at the end of the day whoever is wrong is in danger of the flames of hell :)

From what I remember we had to add sugar and yeast to the mash to get the alcohol content up once the sugar is consumed alcohol production stops same if the yeast die. They die when the alcohol content gets too high.

And if you have ever had like MD 20/20 I think you would find quickly that it had quite a bit of sugar added to it. (It does taste like cough syrup)


In part here is a part of a recipie for high alcohol wine
- Adding Sugar For High Alcohol

Many recipes will find for producing high alcohol wines will call for 2 or 3 pounds of sugar per each gallon. And, this is in addition to the sugars that are already being naturally provided by the fruit involved. Adding all this sugar at the beginning of fermentation can result in a big problem.

Sugar is what the yeast turns into alcohol. So it stands to reason that you need a lot of sugar to make a lot of alcohol. But, when all the sugar is added at the beginning of fermentation, the concentration levels can be so high that the sugar can actually inhibit the fermentation. The sugar literally start acting as a preservative.

One easy way around this problem is to feed the sugar throughout the duration of the fermentation. For example, add enough sugar in the beginning to get the fermentation going. Then as the fermentation slows down, feed more sugar to it every few days until all the sugar called for in the recipe has been added. Optionally, you can keep adding sugar to the fermentation until the yeast has reached its limits.

When feeding sugar to a fermentation, the hydrometer can be a big help. When the Potential Alcohol reading gets close to zero, that is your cue to feed more sugar to the fermentation. In turn, the sugar will raise the reading again and the fermentation will again try to ferment towards zero on the scale.

This process can go on for several rounds before the yeast simply quits. But without the hydrometer, feeding sugar can be risky. You may be adding sugar to a wine that already has too much and is just slowing down because the yeast has reached it's limits instead of running out of sugar. The result can be a wine that is sweeter than you like.

[Crazy Liz]

Pastor George, I agree you can do this, but the good table wine you buy at the supermarket does not have sugar added like this. I understand how winemakers use a hydrometer. They often use it to decide when to harvest the grapes to get the sweetness or dryness they want along with the desired alcohol content.

I noticed that most beginning winemakers would start out making "late harvest" wine with the grapes left behind after the vineyard had been picked. These grapes are especially sweet, so the resulting wines tended to be both sweet and high in alcohol, without the addition of any sugar. It apparently takes more experience to be able to make a dry wine.

[BT]

Pastor George,

Why do you drink Kosher wine? Do you also follow the Kosher dietary rules? I don't want to spark a big debate or anything. I just find it strange. I don't think it's wrong or right... I'm just wondering...

If you'd prefer to PM me the answer that's great..

[KJVJoshua2415]

As a recovering Alcoholic (4 years now praise JESUS!) I am glad we use grape juice. Some may argue with me but I know back then they used wine. But when we break bread I do not think Wine is needed as it is symbolic. So any drink should do well. Again sorry if people disagree. Am willing to listen.:amen:

[Iollain]

I personally think it is more important not to lead a brother or sister to fall than to insist on wine with alcohol content. If i was a pastor i could not serve alcohol with a good conscience toward God.

[Crazy Liz]

Here's the thread I was looking for.

Bump.

[aReformedPatriot]

cuz grape juice is O so good. Not to mention technically it is the fruit of the vine. :)

[Glorianna]

Hello. I was just wondering why Baptists use grape juice for their communion services. Now I do not want to get into a debate about the Real Prescence, but I do want to know why Baptists feel like they can edit a sign of the covenant like that. Remeber, Jesus said, "This is the new covenant in my blood." Why then do you use grape juice?

Simply put: Jesus used wine during the Last Supper to symbolize his blood. Grape juice is like wine, except cheaper and everyone can drink it (you don't have to be a certain age). Therefore, grape juice symbolizes his blood