Is the church today to wishy-washy?

[darkshadow]

Is it just me or does the "christian" church today seem like they are afraid to step on anyone's toes. That sermons are watered down, and Hell is never mentioned. It seems like we hear about the love of the Christ, which is needed don't get me wrong, but you don't hear of the wrath of God. Its all touchy feely sermons it seems, no fire, and no brimstone. Tell me what do you think?:confused:

[ARBITER01]

Is it just me or does the "christian" church today seem like they are afraid to step on anyone's toes. That sermons are watered down, and Hell is never mentioned. It seems like we hear about the love of the Christ, which is needed don't get me wrong, but you don't hear of the wrath of God. Its all touchy feely sermons it seems, no fire, and no brimstone. Tell me what do you think?:confused:

You're referencing churchianity and it's political correctness, not Christianity. Big, big difference.

[GBTWC]

if your in a church like that grab a brother thats like minded aproach your priest/pastor correct them if they dont listen find a bible believing church

[toolite]

If your church is preaching love then I believe they should be awarded! Churches have to begin to prepare for what is to come. If you go to church and I look at you personally and remind you of all the wrong you have done and the possiblity of Hell.. Would you look forward to going to church.. Church should be about Hope, Love and the Goodness of the Lord. Tired & Rejected people should be able to go to church and feel love.. Love is what saves.. God's Love. The time is changing so we must be ready to lift up souls instead of condeming them... Oh we must be careful because only one can truly say where a soul is going... So why would any man talk about it anyway for they don't know where a person is going to go anyway. Are they the judge? NO... This is a time to love as much as we can..

All The Glory Belongs To God!

[trentlogain]

I think you might be missing the point. Noone said preaching the love of Christ is wrong, but if you don't include the consequences of not accepting Him then I think there is an obligation to preach the opposite end of the spectrum as well.

[plmarquette]

James chapter 2......now that you heard the message....brothers & sisters....

get up....go forth....and do some thing about it!

[pgp_protector]

Who is the Church Preaching To when speaking to the Congregation ?

[darkshadow]

if your in a church like that grab a brother thats like minded aproach your priest/pastor correct them if they dont listen find a bible believing church

The church I attend is nothing like the one I described, however I have been to several churches that are that way. The church I attend was starting to go that way, but we have an excellent preaching staff now.

[Dies3l]

Is it just me or does the "christian" church today seem like they are afraid to step on anyone's toes. That sermons are watered down, and Hell is never mentioned. It seems like we hear about the love of the Christ, which is needed don't get me wrong, but you don't hear of the wrath of God. Its all touchy feely sermons it seems, no fire, and no brimstone. Tell me what do you think?:confused:

I think that the church is too wishy washy, but not in the ways that you mention. I think that there is altogether too much talk about where we go when we die and not enough talk about we ought to while we are still alive. We tell people to "follow Jesus, so you don't go to Hell," but we don't teach people what it means to follow Jesus. And, when we do talk about morality, we are so caught up with the hot-button issues, like homosexuality that we don't talk about justice for the poor and the oppressed, sacrificially giving of our time and money, loving one another genuinely and completely, and things such as these that were the focus of Jesus' earthly ministry. Sure, we pay lip service to such things, be we never speak in a way that reflects that we actually expect Christians to do these things as Jesus would.

A large segment of the Church even teaches a false gospel of economic prosperity. According to some teachers, God wants you to be extraordinarily healthy and wealthy. And some of these teachers even tell their followers that they are expected to live in luxury so as to bear a strong "testimony" to the world. Other churches teach that if you say some magical incantation (that goes something like "Jesus I am a sinner, I repent, and I need you to save me."), then you will go to heaven, and that going heaven (or not going to Hell) is all that really matters. Some of these churches go to great lengths to literally scare the hell out of people (that is by working people up into an emotional frenzy so that they will be highly suggestible so that they will say the magical incantation that will save them), but then do very little to teach them about how to live as a follower of Jesus.

But, it is interesting to me that Jesus spent far more time talking about this life than He spent talking about the afterlife. And, when he did speak of the afterlife (especially when He was talking about Hell, Gehenna, etc...), He was speaking in terms of how ought to live now to avoid such serious consequences. Yet, the Church today seems so pent on ushering people into Heaven that we neglect teaching about living as follower of Jesus.

[darkshadow]

I think that the church is too wishy washy, but not in the ways that you mention. I think that there is altogether too much talk about where we go when we die and not enough talk about we ought to while we are still alive. We tell people to "follow Jesus, so you don't go to Hell," but we don't teach people what it means to follow Jesus. And, when we do talk about morality, we are do caught up with the hot-button issues, like homosexuality that we don't talk about justice for the poor and the oppressed, sacrificially giving of our time and money, loving one another genuinely and completely, and things such as these that were the focus of Jesus' earthly ministry. Sure, we pay lip service to such things, be we never speak in a way that reflects that we actually expect Christians to do these things as Jesus would.

A large segment of the Church even teaches a false gospel of economic prosperity. According to some teachers, God wants you to be extraordinarily healthy and wealthy. And some of these teachers even tell their followers that they are expected to live in luxury so as to bear a strong "testimony" to the world. Other churches teach that if you say some magical incantation (that goes something like "Jesus I am a sinner, I repent, and I need you to save me."), then you will go to heaven, and that going heaven (or not going to Hell) is all that really matters. Some of these churches go to great lengths to literally scare the hell out of people (that is by working people up into an emotional frenzy so that they will be highly suggestible so that they will say the magical incantation that will save them), but then do very little to teach them about how to live as a follower of Jesus.

But, it is interesting to me that Jesus spent far more time talking about this life than He spent talking about the afterlife. And, when he did speak of the afterlife (especially when He was talking about Hell, Gehenna, etc...), He was speaking in terms of how ought to live now to avoid such serious consequences. Yet, the Church today seems so pent on ushering people into Heaven that we neglect teaching about living as follower of Jesus.

I agree with you except the last sentence. I don't think, and this is my opinion, that it is so much "ushering people into Heaven", as it is ushering people into there church in order to say, "see we are doing it right because we have so many more then those churches over there."

[dinonum]

Is it just me or does the "christian" church today seem like they are afraid to step on anyone's toes. That sermons are watered down, and Hell is never mentioned. It seems like we hear about the love of the Christ, which is needed don't get me wrong, but you don't hear of the wrath of God. Its all touchy feely sermons it seems, no fire, and no brimstone. Tell me what do you think?:confused:

I think that fire and brimstone is a bad way to provoke Love for Christ and many churches are finally realizing this. I think that they need to be careful to still teach biblical truth, but most who I have spoken to who have left Christianity did when they realized they'd only gotten into it because they were scared. Fear of God (you know, the good kind) comes through getting in touch with God's love in my opinion.

[TheDarkestHour]

What about the length of a church service? I've heard some people criticize that. Some think it's either too long or too short.

[dinonum]

What about the length of a church service? I've heard some people criticize that. Some think it's either too long or too short.
Why should length matter at all? Quality not quantity.

[darkshadow]

Why should length matter at all? Quality not quantity.

I am big on "quality over quantity". I have been to services that were 2 hours long that seemed like just minutes, because the speaker was good, and the message was good, and been to 1 hour services that seemed like days because the message was so dry. I like love it, Lets all says it:


QUALITY OVER QUANTITY!!

[dinonum]

I am big on "quality over quantity". I have been to services that were 2 hours long that seemed like just minutes, because the speaker was good, and the message was good, and been to 1 hour services that seemed like days because the message was so dry. I like love it, Lets all says it:


QUALITY OVER QUANTITY!!



Chyea!

Lol, I agree!

[Dies3l]

I am big on "quality over quantity". I have been to services that were 2 hours long that seemed like just minutes, because the speaker was good, and the message was good, and been to 1 hour services that seemed like days because the message was so dry. I like love it, Lets all says it:


QUALITY OVER QUANTITY!!



Is quality really about how engaging the speaker is? Wouldn't we expect a really good speaker to say things that might make us uncomfortable, like really uncomfortable, so much so that the most religious of us might get so angry as to want to, say, hang the speaker on a cross?

[dinonum]

Is quality really about how engaging the speaker is? Wouldn't we expect a really good speaker to say things that might make us uncomfortable, like really uncomfortable, so much so that the most religious of us might get so angry as to want to, say, hang the speaker on a cross?
Actually yes. To some there are certain qualities that bring them closer to the Lord, if someone doesn't have that quality then they are not able to engage with that person. It changes from person to person, as I know some people who'd take stuff that would put me to sleep and walk out more passionate that ever.

No one is saying that a quality speaker wouldn't say what makes us uncomfortable though, I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at :confused:

[Dies3l]

Actually yes. To some there are certain qualities that bring them closer to the Lord, if someone doesn't have that quality then they are not able to engage with that person. It changes from person to person, as I know some people who'd take stuff that would put me to sleep and walk out more passionate that ever.

No one is saying that a quality speaker wouldn't say what makes us uncomfortable though, I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at :confused:

What I am getting at is that we seem to be defining "quality" in terms of how entertaining the speaker is. Thus, if I get bored 15 minutes into a sermon, the message is bad, and if the speaker keeps my attention for a long time, he must be good (or at least that is how one of the posts came across). At one point in my life, I thought Joel Osteen was a good preacher, because I thought he was interesting and easy to listen to, but as I learn more about being a follower of Jesus, I have learned that many of the things that made him engaging and entertaining to listen to are the same things that make him a horrible preacher. The same can be said for many of the other prosperity teachers as well. I can really get into someone telling me how much God wants me to be rich, except for the fact that I know that such teachings are nonsense. On the other hand, I would tend to be put off by a preacher who talked for a long time about all the suffering in the world and our responsibilities as Christians to give sacrificially to do something about it, but I know that he or she would be right in this regard, even if I were not in a mind of wanting to give sacrificially. Generally, I tend not to find conviction entertaining.

[Kerwin]

I think that fire and brimstone is a bad way to provoke Love for Christ and many churches are finally realizing this.

I think you have the wrong image of what Jesus means by love as I assure you he is a strict master and does not hide that fact. If you persist in rebelling against him or show contempt for his commands you will perish which certainly does not mean he wants you to perish. What it means is that Jesus is just and will destroy those who refuse to change their ways from evil. On the other hand one should also point out that Jesus like his Father is merciful and will forgive the evil things each of us have done if we change our ways and follow Him. Both Jesus’ mercy and his justice are part of his love for us. I did not cover other characteristics of his love as his patience that allows him to wait patiently while we stumble off the path of righteousness in hopes that we will return once more to follow him. But should we choose not to return then I assure you that we will face a just and angry King.

[Dies3l]

I think you have the wrong image of what Jesus means by love as I assure you he is a strict master and does not hide that fact. If you persist in rebelling against him or show contempt for his commands you will perish which certainly does not mean he wants you to perish. What it means is that Jesus is just and will destroy those who refuse to change their ways from evil. On the other hand one should also point out that Jesus like his Father is merciful and will forgive the evil things each of us have done if we change our ways and follow Him. Both Jesus’ mercy and his justice are part of his love for us. I did not cover other characteristics of his love as his patience that allows him to wait patiently while we stumble off the path of righteousness in hopes that we will return once more to follow him. But should we choose not to return then I assure you that we will face a just and angry King.

I think that Sblood45's point was that scaring people into becoming Christians by focusing on hell and damnation creates an especially shallow type of Christianity and one that often does not produce fruit and that many of the people who are "saved" by such an approach end up leaving the church with far more hostility to the Gospel than they did before they were "saved". I hope I didn't butcher the original idea too much, but if that is at all close to what was meant, that is quite similar to what I have observed as well.

[dinonum]

What I am getting at is that we seem to be defining "quality" in terms of how entertaining the speaker is. Thus, if I get bored 15 minutes into a sermon, the message is bad, and if the speaker keeps my attention for a long time, he must be good (or at least that is how one of the posts came across). At one point in my life, I thought Joel Osteen was a good preacher, because I thought he was interesting and easy to listen to, but as I learn more about being a follower of Jesus, I have learned that many of the things that made him engaging and entertaining to listen to are the same things that make him a horrible preacher. The same can be said for many of the other prosperity teachers as well. I can really get into someone telling me how much God wants me to be rich, except for the fact that I know that such teachings are nonsense. On the other hand, I would tend to be put off by a preacher who talked for a long time about all the suffering in the world and our responsibilities as Christians to give sacrificially to do something about it, but I know that he or she would be right in this regard, even if I were not in a mind of wanting to give sacrificially. Generally, I tend not to find conviction entertaining.

Well of course there are those who will have quality "bad" sermons, but even those it is a matter of quality over quantity. It doesn't matter how long a bad sermon is as long as it reaches us personally. I didn't say this yet, but when I said it I wasn't ruling out that a sermon could be against scripture or at least not fully lined up with it. Also, that quality is still a matter of personal opinion so even though Quality of Quality is a good policy, quality differs.

[dinonum]

I think you have the wrong image of what Jesus means by love as I assure you he is a strict master and does not hide that fact. If you persist in rebelling against him or show contempt for his commands you will perish which certainly does not mean he wants you to perish. What it means is that Jesus is just and will destroy those who refuse to change their ways from evil. On the other hand one should also point out that Jesus like his Father is merciful and will forgive the evil things each of us have done if we change our ways and follow Him. Both Jesus’ mercy and his justice are part of his love for us. I did not cover other characteristics of his love as his patience that allows him to wait patiently while we stumble off the path of righteousness in hopes that we will return once more to follow him. But should we choose not to return then I assure you that we will face a just and angry King.
I think that Sblood45's point was that scaring people into becoming Christians by focusing on hell and damnation creates an especially shallow type of Christianity and one that often does not produce fruit and that many of the people who are "saved" by such an approach end up leaving the church with far more hostility to the Gospel than they did before they were "saved". I hope I didn't butcher the original idea too much, but if that is at all close to what was meant, that is quite similar to what I have observed as well.
:thumbsup: I was a "Christian" for years until I realized that I just couldn't believe in something that scared me into believing it. I finally came back to Christianity in the truest form when I realized that Christ didn't die just to save us from a Fire-y Eternal Pain called Hell, but that His main goal was to show His love in an effort to save us from any negatives that may occur.

[Dies3l]

:thumbsup: I was a "Christian" for years until I realized that I just couldn't believe in something that scared me into believing it. I finally came back to Christianity in the truest form when I realized that Christ didn't die just to save us from a Fire-y Eternal Pain called Hell, but that His main goal was to show His love in an effort to save us from any negatives that may occur.

My church is not a fire and brimstone type church. In fact, I think I have only heard my pastor use the word "hell" once or twice in the three years that I have been actively involved. Nonetheless, our youth pastor takes the kids to a conference every year that presents a message that is intended to literally scare the hell out of them. Every year, there are several kids who make a decision to accept Jesus (many of them are the same kids every year). The vast majority of these kids, however, remain unchanged and never seriously choose to follow Jesus. (Often the "decision" is forgotten within 48 hours). In the years that I have been doing youth ministry, I have known of one kid who made a serious life-changing decision at one of these rallies, but I must also acknowledge that her circumstances were such that she was already on the verge of making such a decision when we attended the conference. I also know of one young lady who attended our youth group (who was an atheist), who disappeared from our youth group shortly after one of these conferences. Before she stopped coming, she did let us know that the reason she was leaving us was because of the conference.

During the same period, I have seen many kids come into a relationship with Jesus that actually changed their lives, because of our church's teaching about the love and grace of God and our responsibility to love one another. Overall, my experience has been that focusing on hell and damnation is an incredibly ineffective evangelism tool. Thanks for your remarks. :)

[GBTWC]

I agree with you except the last sentence. I don't think, and this is my opinion, that it is so much "ushering people into Heaven", as it is ushering people into there church in order to say, "see we are doing it right because we have so many more then those churches over there."but what does it matter if they do a whole life of good works then lose their soul in Hell? mormons and buhdists and muslims do a great amount of right living and good works and their still receiving a false gospel if you leave any portion out of Gods word especially The consequences of sin such as eternal punishment aka Hell that is preaching a false Gospel

What about the length of a church service? I've heard some people criticize that. Some think it's either too long or too short. My wife told me length doesnt matter ^_^

please forgive me :sorry:

I am big on "quality over quantity". I have been to services that were 2 hours long that seemed like just minutes, because the speaker was good, and the message was good, and been to 1 hour services that seemed like days because the message was so dry. I like love it, Lets all says it:

QUALITY OVER QUANTITY!!



OK :preach: QUALITY OVER QUANTITY!!


Well of course there are those who will have quality "bad" sermons, but even those it is a matter of quality over quantity. It doesn't matter how long a bad sermon is as long as it reaches us personally. I didn't say this yet, but when I said it I wasn't ruling out that a sermon could be against scripture or at least not fully lined up with it. Also, that quality is still a matter of personal opinion so even though Quality of Quality is a good policy, quality differs.our church teaches the whole council of God that way the teachings don get lopsided we go verse by verse line by line precept upon precept its called inductive bible study that way you get what God put in there for us to learn. It seems to be very fruitful but were still humans and there will always be problems till His return.

[Ryan897]

our head pastor is like that he talks only about how good God is and whats good. witsh IS FINE but your right you have to fear God and if you dont know of his wrath you cant really fear him. my church the pastor is like that but the youth pastor always makes shure we know the wrath side of God.

[hushabyemargie]

our head pastor is like that he talks only about how good God is and whats good. witsh IS FINE but your right you have to fear God and if you dont know of his wrath you cant really fear him. my church the pastor is like that but the youth pastor always makes shure we know the wrath side of God.

Wrath or not, God does not want you to fear him. He wants respect and reverence. The fear should be for what your life...and death...would be without him. We are created with free will. If we turn away from God, He does not try to stop us. When our lives turn to crap without Him, we return to Him and He forgives us and welcomes us back with open arms.

In answer to the original question, yes, I think many churches now are teaching about the love and not the blood. They send people off on Sunday feeling good about themselves but don't teach them how to become more like Jesus.

[rob64]

if your in a church like that grab a brother thats like minded aproach your priest/pastor correct them if they dont listen find a bible believing church

Aren't we instructed, "Rebuke not an elder" ?

[rob64]

Is it just me or does the "christian" church today seem like they are afraid to step on anyone's toes. That sermons are watered down, and Hell is never mentioned. It seems like we hear about the love of the Christ, which is needed don't get me wrong, but you don't hear of the wrath of God. Its all touchy feely sermons it seems, no fire, and no brimstone. Tell me what do you think?:confused:

I think "church", today as we know it, is a far cry from the way the NT described it. If you dig into the Bible, you'd find that today it is WAY OFF BASE.

[Wackotic]

I think Diesel's point was especially excellent. Took the words out of my mouth.

I do think churches tend to be wishy-washy in there being overmuch fluff to where it does not come across as genuine or practically beneficial to where the words make such an impact that will motivate people to dig deeper in the word and take the Christian commitment seriously throughout the week. However, I am not at all for hellfire and brimstone preaching as I think it often is as pretentious as the opposite side of the coin in most cases. And yes, I was one who was an extremely dedicated follower of Christ about three years ago and then found I was only serving God out of fear, was turning others from the Gospel by the depression that resulted and therefore I came to reject Christianity and religion for a while until prayers and God's own intervention made me come to terms that I had no reasonable excuse to hold this position as deep down I believed the Bible.

In any case, I think the empty candy-coated presentation of the Gospel as well as the negative wrath message is of an excessive extreme. However, a focus on how to practically realize our servant-hood in Christ in day to day matters is what most impresses me and would be a good medium between both polars. I'm not saying people shouldn't think God isn't loving or isn't a God who brings judgment wherever sin is sown and faith and righteousness is absent, but at my church, at least, there is an eternity focus which is all fine but I find there is little encouragement to really dig into the Word on one's own time or to really think about what it means to be doing God's will in one's daily life at home and abroad.

[Dies3l]

I think "church", today as we know it, is a far cry from the way the NT described it. If you dig into the Bible, you'd find that today it is WAY OFF BASE.

For example, very very few people in the Church today embrace the communal and sacrificial living exemplified in the 1st Century church in Jerusalem. Heck, in many "Christian" circles, if you so much as mention tithing, you will be labeled as a heretic who is "still living under the Law." We forget that in many ways, the early church was not concerned with tithing, because the outflowing of their faith and love led them to give more, in many cases up to 100% of their income to serve the mission of the Church.

[rob64]

For example, very very few people in the Church today embrace the communal and sacrificial living exemplified in the 1st Century church in Jerusalem. Heck, in many "Christian" circles, if you so much as mention tithing, you will be labeled as a heretic who is "still living under the Law." We forget that in many ways, the early church was not concerned with tithing, because the outflowing of their faith and love led them to give more, in many cases up to 100% of their income to serve the mission of the Church.

This is what I'd like to find out;
We all know that there is a discription in the NT of how the church opperated. For example, they sold their belongings, (some sold everything they owned) and distributed it among themselves as they had need. They had everything common. They were of the same mind. They were filled with the Holy Ghost. They operated in their gifts. They eventually set up offices in the church, and practiced church discipline. They discipled people. Went from house to house, breaking bread...
1. How did it go from that, to what it is today?
2. Why is there no teaching about this behind the pulpit?
3. Why do most pastors only mention the part about tithes?
Why do people not exersise gifts anymore, like it is described in the NT
(They used their gifts so much back then, that they had to be told to start doing things decently, and in order!!!):confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

[Dies3l]

This is what I'd like to find out;
We all know that there is a discription in the NT of how the church opperated. For example, they sold their belongings, (some sold everything they owned) and distributed it among themselves as they had need. They had everything common. They were of the same mind. They were filled with the Holy Ghost. They operated in their gifts. They eventually set up offices in the church, and practiced church discipline. They discipled people. Went from house to house, breaking bread...
1. How did it go from that, to what it is today?
2. Why is there no teaching about this behind the pulpit?
3. Why do most pastors only mention the part about tithes?
Why do people not exersise gifts anymore, like it is described in the NT
(They used their gifts so much back then, that they had to be told to start doing things decently, and in order!!!):confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

I think that one of the big differences between the Church today (at least in the West) and the 1st Century church is persecution vs. acceptance. In the 1st Century, persecution was a part of the Christian way of life; in the Modern Western Church it is practically nonexistent. In fact, modern Christians go out of their way to pretend that they are being persecuted simply because their worldview do not enjoy the same dominance that it did at one time. Persecution does a number of things to a group of people:

a) it creates a strong bond between the members of the group that is being persecuted, and it brings together as a community.

b) where membership in the group is voluntary (such as religious belief), it limits the membership to those who are truly committed to the cause. If you don't really feel strongly about the cause, you're not going to die for it.

c) it forces the group to decide what it truly important. If you are going to be martyred for doing God's work, you will at least try to make sure that you truly are doing God's work, right?

d) it allows God's strength to be revealed through the weaknesses and faithfulness of the messengers.

So, to answer your questions, I think that it started to go to the way it is now when Rome began to embrace Christianity. And, ever since then, Western culture has embraced it, and has created a very diluted and weak version of it that is far more concerned with maintaining political dominance (such as by banning gay marriage, protecting the "right" to use government to force Christianity on others, and so forth). There is no preaching (very little, anyway -- my pastor preaches about it more than some I've known) about the Biblical model because it is inconsistent with the modern model of dominance and authority that is much more palatable and easy to follow for most people. Honestly, I don't fault pastors for teaching about tithing; it is vitally important for maintaining the ability of the church to effectively do her duty. I would say, however, that our teaching on giving needs to go well beyond mere tithing. We should learn to give to the ministry of the church and to serve one another with 100% of who we are. I think most preachers stop at tithing, because most of their parishioners would get up and walk out if they were to preach the Biblical model of completely sacrificial giving. Let's face it; American Christians like to have their cake and eat it too; we like the warm and fuzzy Jesus who died for us and saves our souls but we are not so fond of the Jesus that tells us that we must give completely of ourselves to love one another and He loved us, even to the point of taking up our crosses and laying down our very lives for one another (The 1st Century Church, or at least the healthy parts of it, had a completely opposite conception of what it meant to be a Christian). And, gifts are not seen in the same way, because we don't pursue them like the early church. Where we do see people using "spiritual gifts", normally we see it in the context of Christians showing one another how holy and spiritual they are (i.e., "I can speak in tongues, so God must really love me" or "I want to prophesy so the church will know how important I am").

From what I have read and heard about the Church in other parts of the world, such as in Islamic and Atheistic nations where Christians are still horribly persecuted, the Church still looks very much like the Biblical model. But, in the west, where we have been "blessed" with widespread acceptance and financial abundance, the church looks more like a dying political movement than Body of Christ.

[GBTWC]

Aren't we instructed, "Rebuke not an elder" ?no check out 1Tim 5:19Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.
also Gal1:6-10 and 2:11-14
This is what I'd like to find out;
We all know that there is a discription in the NT of how the church opperated. For example, they sold their belongings, (some sold everything they owned) and distributed it among themselves as they had need. They had everything common. They were of the same mind. They were filled with the Holy Ghost. They operated in their gifts. They eventually set up offices in the church, and practiced church discipline. They discipled people. Went from house to house, breaking bread...
1. How did it go from that, to what it is today?Sin
2. Why is there no teaching about this behind the pulpit?Ill bet if you went to the Eastern orthodox section you would get a pretty good answer for this, but the bottom line is were sinners and we've blown it perhaps God is calling you to research this area and start teaching on it to your church I think its a very important topic
3. Why do most pastors only mention the part about tithes?Im not sure this statement is accurate but if it is at your church follow my advice about correcting them and bailing if they dont listen
Why do people not exercise gifts anymore, like it is described in the NT
(They used their gifts so much back then, that they had to be told to start doing things decently, and in order!!!):confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: they do there are miracles of healing and visions and all kinds of awesome stuff But God uses them were they are necessary remember His mind is on our salvation here's a link about Healing you might find interesting
http://prorege-forum.com/forum_entry.php?id=5620
id say these gifts are more necessary in places like Iraq or Iran that a miraculous presence of God is needed than in places like the U.S.A. were the gospel is always being preached and people wont Hear becouse of their hearts
http://bibleprobe.com/archive/messages/406.html
also remember Christ warned us about looking for miracles as proof of His truth we tend to move on and forget miracles but faith is believing even without miracles
if you personally desire a spiritual Gift pray to the Father and if its His will He will Bless you with it But remember with much blessings comes much responsibility

with Love in Christ

[rob64]

I think that one of the big differences between the Church today (at least in the West) and the 1st Century church is persecution vs. acceptance. In the 1st Century, persecution was a part of the Christian way of life; in the Modern Western Church it is practically nonexistent. In fact, modern Christians go out of their way to pretend that they are being persecuted simply because their worldview do not enjoy the same dominance that it did at one time. Persecution does a number of things to a group of people:

a) it creates a strong bond between the members of the group that is being persecuted, and it brings together as a community.

b) where membership in the group is voluntary (such as religious belief), it limits the membership to those who are truly committed to the cause. If you don't really feel strongly about the cause, you're not going to die for it.

c) it forces the group to decide what it truly important. If you are going to be martyred for doing God's work, you will at least try to make sure that you truly are doing God's work, right?

d) it allows God's strength to be revealed through the weaknesses and faithfulness of the messengers.

So, to answer your questions, I think that it started to go to the way it is now when Rome began to embrace Christianity. And, ever since then, Western culture has embraced it, and has created a very diluted and weak version of it that is far more concerned with maintaining political dominance (such as by banning gay marriage, protecting the "right" to use government to force Christianity on others, and so forth). There is no preaching (very little, anyway -- my pastor preaches about it more than some I've known) about the Biblical model because it is inconsistent with the modern model of dominance and authority that is much more palatable and easy to follow for most people. Honestly, I don't fault pastors for teaching about tithing; it is vitally important for maintaining the ability of the church to effectively do her duty. I would say, however, that our teaching on giving needs to go well beyond mere tithing. We should learn to give to the ministry of the church and to serve one another with 100% of who we are. I think most preachers stop at tithing, because most of their parishioners would get up and walk out if they were to preach the Biblical model of completely sacrificial giving. Let's face it; American Christians like to have their cake and eat it too; we like the warm and fuzzy Jesus who died for us and saves our souls but we are not so fond of the Jesus that tells us that we must give completely of ourselves to love one another and He loved us, even to the point of taking up our crosses and laying down our very lives for one another (The 1st Century Church, or at least the healthy parts of it, had a completely opposite conception of what it meant to be a Christian). And, gifts are not seen in the same way, because we don't pursue them like the early church. Where we do see people using "spiritual gifts", normally we see it in the context of Christians showing one another how holy and spiritual they are (i.e., "I can speak in tongues, so God must really love me" or "I want to prophesy so the church will know how important I am").

From what I have read and heard about the Church in other parts of the world, such as in Islamic and Atheistic nations where Christians are still horribly persecuted, the Church still looks very much like the Biblical model. But, in the west, where we have been "blessed" with widespread acceptance and financial abundance, the church looks more like a dying political movement than Body of Christ.

Sheeeesh,! I never considered that the lack of persecution can so drasticly change things. But it makes perfect sense.
I'm tempted to mix alittle of my own thoughts with your analagy.
False teaching was so prevalent, even in the days the NT was being written, that a large portion of the NT gives stark warnings to be aware of it. And you have to factor into all of this, the ones stirring up divisions in the church. The NT church also being warned of this.
Plus, nowadays, alot of churches have evolved into stage productions, and businesses for profit, in the name of God.
So, now where are we at?

[rob64]

no check out 1Tim 5:19Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.
also Gal1:6-10 and 2:11-14
Sin
Ill bet if you went to the Eastern orthodox section you would get a pretty good answer for this, but the bottom line is were sinners and we've blown it perhaps God is calling you to research this area and start teaching on it to your church I think its a very important topic
Im not sure this statement is accurate but if it is at your church follow my advice about correcting them and bailing if they dont listen
they do there are miracles of healing and visions and all kinds of awesome stuff But God uses them were they are necessary remember His mind is on our salvation here's a link about Healing you might find interesting
http://prorege-forum.com/forum_entry.php?id=5620
id say these gifts are more necessary in places like Iraq or Iran that a miraculous presence of God is needed than in places like the U.S.A. were the gospel is always being preached and people wont Hear becouse of their hearts
http://bibleprobe.com/archive/messages/406.html
also remember Christ warned us about looking for miracles as proof of His truth we tend to move on and forget miracles but faith is believing even without miracles
if you personally desire a spiritual Gift pray to the Father and if its His will He will Bless you with it But remember with much blessings comes much responsibility

with Love in Christ

Thanx for that! Loads of info. in your post! And the correction of 1st Timothy.! Somemore of that church discipline that is lacking!
I read a book one time, cant remember the author, but the title was, "Rut, rot, or revival." In it, it described what I was questioning. After reading it, "church" as I have come to know it, looks very disturbing.
As far as bringing this subject up to my church, well, I was a member of a church that also had a homeless shelter. I saw God do some awesome things for people while I was there. Mainly the homeless people. I don't want to go into detail, as I dont want to make this sound like an "I" thing. But after being there for a while, and seeing firsthand, some of the "behind the scene" things, I got out of there as fast as possible.
Now, I have a delima. Actually, I'd like some advice.
I cant go "make disciples", because I dont know of any church I could refer people to, where they could get "ministered to".
As far as the gift thing; I'm spiritfilled, I have a very extensive testimony of what all God has allowed me to witness. I have experienced several of the gifts. And I've been on the recieving end as well. I'm not refering to tongues. I also do that, but, shortly after recieving Christ, I had a vision. I had another one recently. And I also have the gift of discerning spirits, and the word of knowledge. And I'm pretty sure, faith. Faith to me is so easy to understand and use. It's like a muscle. You have to exersise it. Everyone has a measure, they just dont all use it. God has answered more prayers than I can remember. Not just little puny prayers. God wants us to ask Him, and believe Him for supernatural stuff. Not just the wimpy prayers!
Peace

[rob64]

no check out 1Tim 5:19Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.
also Gal1:6-10 and 2:11-14
Sin
Ill bet if you went to the Eastern orthodox section you would get a pretty good answer for this, but the bottom line is were sinners and we've blown it perhaps God is calling you to research this area and start teaching on it to your church I think its a very important topic
Im not sure this statement is accurate but if it is at your church follow my advice about correcting them and bailing if they dont listen
they do there are miracles of healing and visions and all kinds of awesome stuff But God uses them were they are necessary remember His mind is on our salvation here's a link about Healing you might find interesting
http://prorege-forum.com/forum_entry.php?id=5620
id say these gifts are more necessary in places like Iraq or Iran that a miraculous presence of God is needed than in places like the U.S.A. were the gospel is always being preached and people wont Hear becouse of their hearts
http://bibleprobe.com/archive/messages/406.html
also remember Christ warned us about looking for miracles as proof of His truth we tend to move on and forget miracles but faith is believing even without miracles
if you personally desire a spiritual Gift pray to the Father and if its His will He will Bless you with it But remember with much blessings comes much responsibility

with Love in Christ

Uhhmmm, I had to look up the, "Rebuke not an elder". And I was correct, in that we aren't supposed to. If you go all the way back to 1st. Tim. 5:1 and read the whole of chapter 5. Its very definitive. And the other part actually means, we aren't supposed to listen to accusations against an elder, unless there are 2 or 3 witnesses to "back up the accusation".
And, in 1st Peter chapter 5, we are to submit to elders.

[GBTWC]

Uhhmmm, I had to look up the, "Rebuke not an elder". And I was correct, in that we aren't supposed to. If you go all the way back to 1st. Tim. 5:1 and read the whole of chapter 5. Its very definitive. And the other part actually means, we aren't supposed to listen to accusations against an elder, unless there are 2 or 3 witnesses to "back up the accusation".
And, in 1st Peter chapter 5, we are to submit to elders.not to be argumentative but we definitely are to correct them if they are not teaching the true Gospel there are a lot of scriptures to back that up Ive already listed several. the point of the verses you are referencing is about revering those with authority over you, and to discourage backbiting and gossip, but we are definitely called to correct wrong doctrine no matter who the source is the protocol is to have at least two witnesses that way you can make sure you are not out of line with your doctrine or that you dont fall into pride

[darkshadow]

Never thought of the persecution angle either. If you look at the early biblical church they did grow closer and bolder after times of persecution. Nice one.

[darkshadow]

Lets teak the question a little:

Are "christians" in the church a little too wishy-washy. I mean do "christians" really stand up for there beliefs, or do we let society kick us around?

[dinonum]

Christian's are wwwaaayyy wishy-washy in the church!

[rrawd]

Is it just me or does the "christian" church today seem like they are afraid to step on anyone's toes. That sermons are watered down, and Hell is never mentioned. It seems like we hear about the love of the Christ, which is needed don't get me wrong, but you don't hear of the wrath of God. Its all touchy feely sermons it seems, no fire, and no brimstone. Tell me what do you think?:confused:


Actually you are right. Todays church is more about gaining members the going all the way with there sermons. Filling seats is there #1 priority these days.

[rob64]

Christian's are wwwaaayyy wishy-washy in the church!

So do I and I also think were being kind with the "wishy-washy" part.
On a different note, I see you are a "hoosher-daddy"? From Indiana?
I'm so sorry for you!!! lol
I now live in Mississippi, but I am also from the hoosier state, so I hope I can get away with all this!

[dinonum]

So do I and I also think were being kind with the "wishy-washy" part.
On a different note, I see you are a "hoosher-daddy"? From Indiana?
I'm so sorry for you!!! lol
I now live in Mississippi, but I am also from the hoosier state, so I hope I can get away with all this!
Ehh.

I don't really believe in getting involved in states and such, haha. I'm a Christian first and foremost!

[rob64]

Ehh.

I don't really believe in getting involved in states and such, haha. I'm a Christian first and foremost!

Uhmmm, whats wrong with lightening up and having some fun from time to time?

[dinonum]

Uhmmm, whats wrong with lightening up and having some fun from time to time?
Oh no, haha, I thought it was funny! Don't get me wrong! I just am very open for my distaste of statehood haha.

[JasonX43]

That's why I love the church I attend and the Pastors that preside over it. It's been like taking a college class on the Word of God and it's brought about drastic changes in my life.

[WuAgent]

yeah a lot of churches are dead weight unfortunately. i dont think its an issue of needing more "hell preaching" because thats just a different side of the same bad coin. churches are becoming worthless because of "condemning hell" preaching as well as "accommodation and prosperity" preaching.

preaching sound doctrine is a lost art. the love and wisdom that we were instructed to preach the gospel with is all but completely gone and many churches are either making people lose interest because of constantly being told how they're gonna burn in hell or are luring them in with accommodating but inaccurate doctrine that is more dangerous than being unsaved.

i think a lot of the problem is that people just flat out dont know scripture or people are using it for their own political or social agenda.

[darkshadow]

yeah a lot of churches are dead weight unfortunately. i dont think its an issue of needing more "hell preaching" because thats just a different side of the same bad coin. churches are becoming worthless because of "condemning hell" preaching as well as "accommodation and prosperity" preaching.

preaching sound doctrine is a lost art. the love and wisdom that we were instructed to preach the gospel with is all but completely gone and many churches are either making people lose interest because of constantly being told how they're gonna burn in hell or are luring them in with accommodating but inaccurate doctrine that is more dangerous than being unsaved.

i think a lot of the problem is that people just flat out dont know scripture or people are using it for their own political or social agenda.

I agree, politics and agenda have gotten to involved with the church.:thumbsup: