Pre-conversion sin restitution

[AndrasGregorik]

Hi all,
as of now I'm still clueless regarding this question but it seems/feels all-important. So: does Jesus require that a believer should make amends for his/her pre-conversion sins (lies, shoplifting, quarrels) and thus confront the person(s) involved even if otherwise they have nothing to do with each other anymore?

Please share your views with me on this one.
God bless y'all, Andras (new member here) :pray:

[heymikey80]

as of now I'm still clueless regarding this question but it seems/feels all-important. So: does Jesus require that a believer should make amends for his/her pre-conversion sins (lies, shoplifting, quarrels) and thus confront the person(s) involved even if otherwise they have nothing to do with each other anymore?
Good question."All things are lawful," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful," but not all things are constructive. 1 Cor 10:23
If you are finding particular sins you feel compelled to make amends for, then make amends for them as best you can. If lies, seek to correct them. If stealing, returning what you owe. If fighting, then seek peace, though in this last point sometimes conflicts are best left at peace by not being around the enemy any more.

Is it required? Well, no. But someone's going to pay for it. Would you prefer to place your Brother Jesus under even greater discomfort on the Cross, or seek forgiveness in some discomfort yourself? The exchange is not, strictly speaking the same, but this sort of comparison is what I'd urge you to consider.

[WashedByTheWater]

I, uhhh... was unsettled by:
Would you prefer to place your Brother Jesus under even greater discomfort on the Cross, or seek forgiveness in some discomfort yourself?

Jesus took all of our sin on the cross... he became like our sin -- he was shunned by God, for a time.
Nothing we do can make this worse or better.

And no, while going around on some kinda holy "I'm Sorry" crusade may be a good idea, Jesus (nor God) requires or asks that of you. Many people do chose to seek forgiveness from those they have sinned against, though, and its a good idea.
Hunting down someone you have no ties to anymore to ask forgiveness is up to you, it could help you feel like a new person.

[heymikey80]

While I don't think the parallel is direct either, I do think that sins pain Jesus and the Spirit of God. (Ep 4:30, 1 Cor 8:12, 1 Cor 3:14-17) And I also think that Jesus could see the joy set before Him in the purpose of the Cross (Heb 12:2) -- both in saving His brothers, and in his brothers doing what God set out for them to do.

There are better or worse things that we can do, and those things relieve the sin that is in the world, and to take human responsibility for our own sins. While this isn't strictly speaking shouldering the burden of sin that Jesus took, the point has to be made that we're doing what Jesus set up for us to do by the Cross (Ep 2:10, Pp 3:12-14).

For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. Gal 2:17-18

[Bellicus]

Welcome to the forums Andras!

I would say it depends, if the sin committed is still a sin, like if you have stolen something and still have the stolen item, then it is a good thing to return it. If you have lied, then start speaking the truth instead. If you have quarreled, then don't quarrel anymore. Just by being a Christian you will do the right things.

I do not think God demands us to track down every person we ever have commit a sin against, instead we should let the past be past and turn our attention to the moment and our future.

Luke 9,62And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/plough.html), and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

[AndrasGregorik]

Thank you deeply for all your replies. There seems to be some Scriptural support of the idea that we need to make amends even for people we haven't met since our conversion. And this is what pains my conscience (either that or Satan). One is Matthew 5:23-24:
"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift."

The other is the conversion of Zacchaeus in Luke 19:8:
"But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount."

But I'm not sure if these imply even minor (pre-conversion) sins like white lies -- the memories of which sometimes come to mind.
Did you guys in particular make amends?

[AndrasGregorik]

I've also found this radical site (biblicalcounseling.com) that is all about what it calls the 'Biblical' obligation to make amends at all times. What they say sounds very strict to me but I wonder if they are right. They say:

"Unresolved past offenses do not fade as time passes. Instead they get bigger and more serious. Do we truly understand how to request forgiveness biblically? Have we secretly hoped that if we postpone clearing our conscience with someone, the problem will diminish with time? When we offend someone, the words “I’m sorry,” or “I apologize,” are not acceptable phrases. (...) Our “pre-conversion” offenses still count and we must make them right. One commonly held misconception about guilt is the assumption that we do not need to seek forgiveness for the offenses that we committed while we were still in an unsaved state. The mistaken belief is that since God forgave us for all of our sins when we came to Christ in repentance and faith, our pre-conversion offenses “don’t count. The truth of the matter is that when we offend someone we must ask God and the person we offended for forgiveness no matter how long ago the offense occurred. Genuine repentance is the only means for the removal of guilt. Procrastination weakens our consciences because we must ignore the promptings of the Holy Spirit in order to procrastinate. God expects immediate obedience to His commands. When we refuse to obey Him promptly, God allows our hearts to harden toward Him and toward the convicting power of His Word.
Saying “I’m sorry” is not the same as asking for forgiveness.
Most Christians do not understand the biblical guidelines for requesting forgiveness. One particularly prevalent deception is the belief that the words “I’m sorry,” or “I apologize” are acceptable phrases when an offender asks someone else for forgiveness. These are inadequate approaches. When we offend someone, we must first demonstrate genuine repentance and humility by acknowledging our sins. We should always use the words, “I was wrong,” and we should specifically name the offenses that we committed. Finally, we should ask the question, “Will you please forgive me?” Anything short of this approach is unbiblical and will not lead to true restoration and reconciliation.”

What do you think?
(I've also posted this in the 'Christian advice' thread)

[Criada]

God took my guilt on the cross... completely and totally.
There is nothing I can do to ad to that in any way.
But, having said that, sin has consequences, and where those consequences affect other people, we should make what restitution we can.. not out of some duty, or fear that we won't be good enough without doing so.. but out of a genuine love of God and a desire to show His love to others.
It is amazing what a powerful witness it is to others when we admit our faults and ask forgiveness.

[twistedsketch]

There are two kinds of relationships we have. Horizontal (towards man) and vertical (towards God). At the moment of conversion, I dare say that the sin between us and God is wiped out, and our vertical relationship is restored. But our horizontal relationships are the same as the last time we checked before conversion. It is our moral responsibility to those people to ask for forgiveness, etc. Imagine if someone were to punch you in the face, pray to God for forgiveness privately, and blow you off after that. You wouldn't be feeling too good about that other person. Remember, we are to love our neighbors as ourselves.

[oxquo]

I think it's a personal choice to apologize to people from the past. Remember You are born again, made anew. Christ said that We should not be repetitious in Our prayers, that We should ask of Him once and know it will be received. Such is forgiveness. Christ has more power and authority to forgive Your sins than say the guy at the corner store one may have offended or stole from. As a Christian We should always ask Ourselves what would Christ do? W.W.C.D. I think You should feel better already about those things after confessing them to Christ and He will also lift the burden from others when they come before Him. A quick rash of apologies depending on the situation may test a new faith more than it can handle with say a jail sentence. Although jail has brought many people to their knees weeping before the Lord, not a great way to start the new life Christ has given to You. Standing before Christ is the highest court any man can stand before, why choose a lower one? Right?

If You ask Christ for forgiveness, He will forgive You... If You want to make a difference, do good things around You. ask if You can help an elderly person mow their lawn not because they are un capable but because You are compelled to do good things for Your Lord. Not only will people appreciate it but they will realize that God is truly working through His people. You will be bearing witness in His name and be pleasing to Him.

James 2:18 "But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do."

God Bless You brother, Christ has already died for Our sins, now is the time to show Him that We were worth all of the suffering and live for Him.

[heymikey80]

I've also found this radical site (biblicalcounseling.com) that is all about what it calls the 'Biblical' obligation to make amends at all times. What they say sounds very strict to me but I wonder if they are right. They say:

* * *

What do you think?
(I've also posted this in the 'Christian advice' thread)
I think it goes much too far.

Many people don't know and don't want to know your offenses against them.

God knows them all and wishes to save you nevertheless.

The important thing is to prevent your treatment of any sin from becoming something that scars your conscience, so you start missing your sinfulness, or your sins when they occur in the future. Cultivate a sensitivity to sin -- and ask God for forgiveness for any sin, because any is a sin against Him.

[AndrasGregorik]

Bringing this back up in the hope of getting more biblical food for thought :).

My questions:
Should one make amends for one's pre-conversion sins?
Even if the relationship grew harmonious by now?
And should one name each sin specifically to the offended?

(also posted on Christian advices)

[AndrasGregorik]

The way I see it now is that:
a., we should not make amends for pre-conversional offenses because we are a new creation in Christ, old things have disappeared (2Corinthians 5:17), God does not count our sins against us (2Corinthians 5:19), and as the Son set us free, we are free indeed (John 8:36). The "vertical" and "horizontal" kinds of relationship are an unbiblical concept, excuse me, Twistedsketch.

b., if a pre-conversional (presently inactive) relationship was relatively harmonious when we last checked it but it was riddled with unforgiven offenses deep under the surface, we should leave it as it is based on a.,. The exception is when the offense involves a major debt (Luke 19:8) as it should be settled.

c., specific sin identification to the offended is only necessary in the above-mentioned exceptional case involving a major debt. Otherwise it's the same scenario as in a.,.

Anyone else?

[oxquo]

Being born again is being created anew but as for parking tickets, societal offenses or debts, well those go by things like social insurance numbers and drivers licenses. Wouldn't it be a great World though if We could just renew ourselves in Christ and they would all just disappear LOL. Those things need to be tended to because it's Your hide they will come after, they don't care about Your soul. I mean it doesn't hurt to apologize for hurting a persons feelings ever. Colleges once offered a course on witchcraft so people who took the course could live tax free. Imagine, tax free, oh but wait, We've got the best, eternal life, salvation and a health plan that blue cross could never match. I personally enjoyed making apologies to some people, it made Me a better person, when it came to My ex-wife.....I let the Lord do it for Me and apologized to Him for wrong doings. Like I said, it's one thing to be meek before the Lord but one draws the line somewhere.

I think what it truly breaks down into in My heart is this, if I asked for forgiveness and feel satisfied, I leave it forgiven, things that haunt You nightly are not forgiven because all that is forgiven is also forgotten. Those should be addressed. I would hate to think a person say sex offender could just apologize to Christ and good enough, whether they paid the human consequence or not. To Me, maybe that would become borderline scapegoat rather than true salvation. Listen to the Lord, listen to your heart and follow.

[AndrasGregorik]

When I first realized that there may be some truth in the teaching that we should make amends for our pre-conversional offenses, I promptly embarked on what I now see as a legalistic, humanistic crusade to ask forgiveness from at least 30 persons (including some ex-girlfriends). Only one or two of these offenses actually haunted me after my conversion in the first place. Anyway, many of these persons left my letter(s) unanswered (if they even knew who I was after all this time). That and the whole process made me feel miserable. I've become obsessed with making amends for a long chain of adolescent and young adulthood quibbles and lies, but I felt that the process is wrong somehow.

Then I came to realize that there's a good reason why we don't find an explicit teaching in the NT saying "you should return to your unforgiven sins from before you were saved". Because, as a general rule, we should not. There's a warning passage in Hebrews concerning apostasy (6:4-6) that is said to be "Satan's favorite passage". I believe this would be his other favorite. He would use it to induce guilt where there is no place for guilt. I for one became a Christian when I was 26. That translates to about 20 years of continuous, unwitting pagan sinning, blundering, lying, cussing on my part. It would take a lifetime to appease this literal guilt trip, as in my experience one restituted offense promptly leads to a newly revealed offense further back in time to form an endless chain -- just as Satan pleases.
So I believe that we should leave our old man's (old self's) ugly legacy alone unless the Spirit bids us to make something specific right (as in Zaccheus). But even if He does bid us, He will not keep us awake at night doing so. His essence is love, thus severe guilt tripping cannot be His way.