Comments about adopting RJ traditions.

[ContraMundum]

See Lk 5:29-39

Here's some comments I've come across about adopting RJ traditions. I give these only for discussion.

These are comments from a very well educated and establsihed Jewish believer about the topic:

"Let me make a strong statement. If we are spiritually more at home with a prayer written by a traditional rabbi then with a great hymn written by a committed Gentile believer then our orientation is dangerously wrong."

"Traditional Rabbinic Judaism is just that: the Judaism based on rabbinic traditions. These traditions, recognized by the Orthodox as being providentially transmitted and developed through 3500 years of Torah history, are considered to be the very essence of Jewish life. They are binding on all who recognize the authority of the rabbis. That’s why, from a traditional perspective, it is totally sacrilegious and almost blasphemous to follow one custom, revise another law, and then discard whatever other traditions we choose. Doing this violates the very essence of rabbinic halakha which seeks to legislate a Jew’s life before God from his first waking moments to his midnight meditations.

What are we saying to the rabbinic community (and let’s face it, if we want to influence our people, we must influence the rabbis) when we pick and choose from the traditional liturgy in our services, wear talliyot on Friday night, and walk around donning yarmulkes while eating at Macdonalds? Can’t you see how offensive this is? Instead of drawing attention to Yeshua, it diverts attention to side issues. We have unwittingly been guilty of making a mockery of the Oral Law by accepting a few of its traditions while rejecting almost all of its authority and relevance. Believe me, Rabbinic Judaism is an all encompassing religion, dealing with every possible area of a Jewish person’s life. It takes years of study for a newcomer to traditional Judaism to learn even the basics! And we’re still mispronouncing “Messiah” and “Holy Spirit” in Hebrew. Who are we fooling?

Yes, let us boldly proclaim the true Jewishness of our faith. But why run roughshod over traditional sensitivities with our piecemeal borrowing of that which is sacred to them? As for our non-traditional Jewish friends, why are we trying to win them with tradition? Why put forth mixed signals as to who we really are?"

From here (http://www.realmessiah.org/tradition.htm).

[SGM4HIM]

Excellent reference.

Many people think if Christians adopt R J that the Gospel will be less offensive and more palatable to Jewish folks. They do this also to correct previous injustices and perversions adopted by Christianity after 1 century.

While this is admirable Dr. Brown points out the difficulties of doing it without 100 % commitment. Some folks get wrapped up in the tradition and loose the importance and faith in Messiah. There are several NT scriptures warning people of the dangers involves with wrong motivations.

One should also note the negative response given by traditonal Jews to their brothers who are now messianic Jews.

We Gentiles under estimate the radical change that occurred 2000 yrs ago. The new movement was not just Judaism with some changes in sacrifices, preisthood and no temple, even among 100% Torah observant Jews of the time.

It cost many 1st century messianics their lives when discussing the arrival of the Messiah.
John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
46 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
47 "But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

This"message" was offensive as seen above and will continue to be for a while.


Note: I am not coming against anyone seeking a closer relationship with Hashem by adopting more Torah Observant practices, holidays or worship, scripture study etc.

Just do it for you, not with the expectation that you will ever influence more traditonal Jews.


Romans 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

[Steve Petersen]

Guess you have to toss out Reconstructionist, Reform, Conservative, Modern Orthodox also. They deviate from Orthodox praxis.

Even within the Orthodox communities there are variations (local customs.)

Jesus himself had some beefs with some of the practices of his day. Gotta cut people some slack on the Messianic journey. No one else (Jewish or Christian) is going to.

[ContraMundum]

Excellent reference.

Many people think if Christians adopt R J that the Gospel will be less offensive and more palatable to Jewish folks. They do this also to correct previous injustices and perversions adopted by Christianity after 1 century.

While this is admirable Dr. Brown points out the difficulties of doing it without 100 % commitment. Some folks get wrapped up in the tradition and loose the importance and faith in Messiah. There are several NT scriptures warning people of the dangers involves with wrong motivations.

I think Dr Brown hit the nail on the head with that article, and I agree with your observations, as usual.


It cost many 1st century messianics their lives when discussing the arrival of the Messiah.
John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
46 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
47 "But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

This"message" was offensive as seen above and will continue to be for a while.

Exactly. As Christians we are challenging preconceptions about the Messiah that were found to be wrong. Challenging tradition is never easy.


Note: I am not coming against anyone seeking a closer relationship with Hashem by adopting more Torah Observant practices, holidays or worship, scripture study etc.

Just do it for you, not with the expectation that you will ever influence more traditonal Jews.


I agree, and I hope this is the sentiment of others in this MHC sub-forum too. Those of us who come from Jewish backgrounds tend to hold on to certain things, but by the same token see the fathomless joy of following Jesus as being the truth that trumps the traditions.

[ContraMundum]

Guess you have to toss out Reconstructionist, Reform, Conservative, Modern Orthodox also. They deviate from Orthodox praxis.

Even within the Orthodox communities there are variations (local customs.)

Jesus himself had some beefs with some of the practices of his day. Gotta cut people some slack on the Messianic journey. No one else (Jewish or Christian) is going to.

All true- as the old saying goes, everyone is somebody's heretic. :)

[Ivy]

Dr. Michael Brown is excellent, imo.

When I was involved more in the Messianic movement, I was at first very attracted by the beauty & poetry in the Siddur, for instance, and I still think it's beautiful. Some things are just expressed in a very unique way; I think it's my personal fasincation with words and with hearing old truths expressed in different ways.

I also had come out of a truly wild & nutty Pentecostal scene, so the empasis on study, calmness, careful deliberation helped to correct some of the imbalance I had in my life at that time.

But I can also say that Dr. Brown is right: these things can have so much of an artifical attraction, that Yeshua/Jesus slips into the background. At the congregation I attended, I could go a whole service without hearing his name mentioned even once in the study, songs, or message. The messages were more like moral talks that emphasized trying harder to be good. I rarely rarely heard anything at all about the Atonement (maybe a little bit on Yom Kippur).

The fact is, I lost that sense of connection with Jesus, that sense of relationship....not continually or totally, but it receded into the background for months at a time and had none of the immediacy it used to have. I was always preoccupied with trying to be a better & more disciplined person, with getting my formula right so that I could feel like I was "under the blessing," and I had less & less sense of the joy of my salvation. At one point, a dear friend pointed out to me, "What more blessing do you need to have than the Redemption?" which really helped to start correcting my perspective.

On one hand, I've always thought that if a person was raised Jewish and loves that lifestyle, and as a Spirit-filled believer in Yeshua, wants to continue in their own ethnicity and culture, there should be no problem about doing that.

But I wonder if, when these things haven't been part of a person's life previously, whether because they were a non-observant Jew or because they were Gentile, if they shouldn't really really carefully examine their motives for suddenly wanting to adopt Jewish traditions. I'm just concerned that it can be a bunny trail that, as Dr. Brown seems to say, takes people away from the True Vine.

BTW, sorry my post is so long, guys............longwinded today ;-)

[SGM4HIM]

Good post Ivy. Not too long, just right. Thanks for sharing your concerns and your journey!

[kivi]

Dr. Michael Brown is excellent, imo.

When I was involved more in the Messianic movement, I was at first very attracted by the beauty & poetry in the Siddur, for instance, and I still think it's beautiful. Some things are just expressed in a very unique way; I think it's my personal fasincation with words and with hearing old truths expressed in different ways.

I also had come out of a truly wild & nutty Pentecostal scene, so the empasis on study, calmness, careful deliberation helped to correct some of the imbalance I had in my life at that time.

But I can also say that Dr. Brown is right: these things can have so much of an artifical attraction, that Yeshua/Jesus slips into the background. At the congregation I attended, I could go a whole service without hearing his name mentioned even once in the study, songs, or message. The messages were more like moral talks that emphasized trying harder to be good. I rarely rarely heard anything at all about the Atonement (maybe a little bit on Yom Kippur).

The fact is, I lost that sense of connection with Jesus, that sense of relationship....not continually or totally, but it receded into the background for months at a time and had none of the immediacy it used to have. I was always preoccupied with trying to be a better & more disciplined person, with getting my formula right so that I could feel like I was "under the blessing," and I had less & less sense of the joy of my salvation. At one point, a dear friend pointed out to me, "What more blessing do you need to have than the Redemption?" which really helped to start correcting my perspective.

On one hand, I've always thought that if a person was raised Jewish and loves that lifestyle, and as a Spirit-filled believer in Yeshua, wants to continue in their own ethnicity and culture, there should be no problem about doing that.

But I wonder if, when these things haven't been part of a person's life previously, whether because they were a non-observant Jew or because they were Gentile, if they shouldn't really really carefully examine their motives for suddenly wanting to adopt Jewish traditions. I'm just concerned that it can be a bunny trail that, as Dr. Brown seems to say, takes people away from the True Vine.

BTW, worry my post is so long, guys............longwinded today ;-)

kivi says: That is exactly what some us do.

[ContraMundum]

But I can also say that Dr. Brown is right: these things can have so much of an artifical attraction, that Yeshua/Jesus slips into the background. At the congregation I attended, I could go a whole service without hearing his name mentioned even once in the study, songs, or message. The messages were more like moral talks that emphasized trying harder to be good. I rarely rarely heard anything at all about the Atonement (maybe a little bit on Yom Kippur).

The fact is, I lost that sense of connection with Jesus, that sense of relationship....not continually or totally, but it receded into the background for months at a time and had none of the immediacy it used to have. I was always preoccupied with trying to be a better & more disciplined person, with getting my formula right so that I could feel like I was "under the blessing," and I had less & less sense of the joy of my salvation. At one point, a dear friend pointed out to me, "What more blessing do you need to have than the Redemption?" which really helped to start correcting my perspective.

On one hand, I've always thought that if a person was raised Jewish and loves that lifestyle, and as a Spirit-filled believer in Yeshua, wants to continue in their own ethnicity and culture, there should be no problem about doing that.

But I wonder if, when these things haven't been part of a person's life previously, whether because they were a non-observant Jew or because they were Gentile, if they shouldn't really really carefully examine their motives for suddenly wanting to adopt Jewish traditions. I'm just concerned that it can be a bunny trail that, as Dr. Brown seems to say, takes people away from the True Vine.

BTW, worry my post is so long, guys............longwinded today ;-)

Interesting post.

For me, there's nothing like walking into a church, where you know the Spirit of God is dwelling, you can sense His presence, even in the air, spiritually discerning the loving, powerful light of His glory in the silence. The first time I walked into a church was the first time I felt the sharp conviction that showed me my sins, and my need for salvation from their tyranny. You don't get that kind of conviction or sense of Divine immediate presence by adopting religion, or religious customs or ceremonies. These things have a place, but they are not the substance of a relationship with God. God doesn't need a ritual, or a ceremony, or an action to bring someone to tears of agony over their sins and tears of joy over His grace, nor do they bring the assurance of His love.

He comes to us as we are, where we are, to change us and to bring us to Him. A thousand hours of being religious will not usher His grace to us. An open heart, pricked by the Word of truth will.

[Ivy]

Interesting post.

For me, there's nothing like walking into a church, where you know the Spirit of God is dwelling, you can sense His presence, even in the air, spiritually discerning the loving, powerful light of His glory in the silence. The first time I walked into a church was the first time I felt the sharp conviction that showed me my sins, and my need for salvation from their tyranny. You don't get that kind of conviction or sense of Divine immediate presence by adopting religion, or religious customs or ceremonies. These things have a place, but they are not the substance of a relationship with God. God doesn't need a ritual, or a ceremony, or an action to bring someone to tears of agony over their sins and tears of joy over His grace, nor do they bring the assurance of His love.

He comes to us as we are, where we are, to change us and to bring us to Him. A thousand hours of being religious will not usher His grace to us. An open heart, pricked by the Word of truth will.

I don't think anyone would guess, outside of it happening to them, but it's maybe the most precious moment of a person's whole life when they realize their own total bankruptcy. It's hard to explain how it makes a person come face to face with the greatness of God's grace.....it's like the worst news you ever heard becomes the best news you ever heard. :thumbsup:

[Ivy]

These things have a place, but they are not the substance of a relationship with God.

What is their place?

[ContraMundum]

What is their place? They assist us to stay on the path and discipline us. I'm sure there's other thoughts on this too.

[Tishri1]

awesome thread:)