Why do you think some churches never have more than 50 - 100 people?

[Balance]

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Is it possible that the person who is 'pastor' isn't actually called to be a pastor?

Now before you jump all over me, look at the description in scripture of what an elder is and then compare it to the description of an "overseer".

Is it possible, just possible that the person who is pastoring, really is NOT an overseer, but an elder?

Elders are gifted to pastor people, but that is completely different from someone who is gifted to oversee people who are elders in the body.

Example:

The first church I attended was an Assembly of God. It was "co pastored" by two very gifted men, the older being the 'senior pastor' and the younger being his 'co-pastor'. Essentially they ministered the same message and shared pulpit duties about 70/30.

We ran 80 or so people.

The older pastor (not really old - he was in his 40's), stepped aside to accept another church. He left on good terms and as far as I know (as of 2 years ago) he's still at that church and that church is about 100 people.

But when the younger (in his late 20's) pastor took over - we went from 80 to 700 in the first year and from 700 to 2,200 18 months later.

I just found it interesting that some men/women can effectively minister to 100 people and others thousands.

Different gifting?

What do you think?

[BenAdam]

Interesting.

Good stuff on Pastors, Elders, and Overseers Balance.

IMHO there may be signficantly different giftings. The cynical part of me wants to make comments about both styles, but I will resist as this could be a good discussion about the abilities a person is granted by God.

[LeadWorship]

Hey Balance! Good topic.

I haven't let it sink in yet, but here's my gut response:

With the older Pastor there, God may have given him what he could handle, or needed to learn and grow. With the younger God may have given him what he could handle, or needed to learn and grow. That's not to say they both weren't Pastors in the true sense, but perhaps what's true with plants is true with Pastors:

A plant will only grow as big as the pot it's in (lack of room for roots to grow).
A church will only grow as big as the Pastor can handle (lack of room for numbers to grow).

Good stuff to think on. :)

[JimfromOhio]

Its also possible a deaf church (typically averages around 150 nationwide) contribute about 5 to 10% of the general population?

I was part of the one such church and we had a great pastor (which I told you about in one thread). He was a GREAT leader for the deaf community.

Pastors are sinners like us however, they have to live in higher standards than regular Christians because they are our spiritual leaders. It is important for us to realize that the pastor-church relationship is very sensitive and vitally important issue.

So, its not really about gifts but rather relationship. Each local Churches have different needs. Churches need pastors with different skills, gifts, and abilities at various stages in their development. A church planted five years ago does not need another church planter when its pastor leaves; it needs a pastor for an established church to take it to the next level of growth. Look carefully at your vision for ministry to determine what your church really needs. That is a ministry that overflows out of the relationship that a pastor have with the Lord, which comes from the study of His Word. That overflows from the pastor's personal & professional life and touches the lives of those in the congregation. And as a local church grow together, out of that comes the nurturing of a humble, teachable and lovable spiritual leadership.

[mont974x4]

Hey Balance! Good topic.

I haven't let it sink in yet, but here's my gut response:

With the older Pastor there, God may have given him what he could handle, or needed to learn and grow. With the younger God may have given him what he could handle, or needed to learn and grow. That's not to say they both weren't Pastors in the true sense, but perhaps what's true with plants is true with Pastors:

A plant will only grow as big as the pot it's in (lack of room for roots to grow).
A church will only grow as big as the Pastor can handle (lack of room for numbers to grow).

Good stuff to think on. :)


I think this is good stuff.

DISCLAIMER: I am speaking in general terms and not about a specific church.


However, the discussion assumes that a church of 50-100 is a bad thing and a church in the 1000's is a good thing.


I think the question should be, what defines a church as being healthy? IMO, the attendance is a very minor indicator of church health. I'm sure we all know of large churches that we would consider unhealthy spiritually.

As a pastor I would rather have a couple dozen people committed to Christ, hungry for His Word, growing steadily, and out doing the work of the church than 300 pew sitters that content with milk.



Jay

[Balance]

However, the discussion assumes that a church of 50-100 is a bad thing and a church in the 1000's is a good thing.


Speaking only for me, and the intent of the OP -

I assumed no such thing.

[BenAdam]

Speaking only for me, and the intent of the OP -

I assumed no such thing.

Thanks for the clarification Brother Balance. Often numbers are seen as success.

I think many of us would agree here that Robert Schuller leaves something to be desired, yet the Crystal Cathedral seats 2900 in the main sanctuary and has several services on Sundays. I would not call that success, I would call it a shame.

[Tamara224]

There are too many variables to really know for sure or to make any broadbrushed generalizations.

It could be because they're in small towns. A church in a town of 3000 would be doing well (in numbers) to have 50-100 people.

It could be because the church is a personality cult built around the "pastor".

It could be because that's the size God wants the church to be.

It could be because the church teaches a false Gospel that lays heavy burdens on people.

It could be because the other church down the road tickles people's ears and draws most would-be churchgoers there to wallow in their carnality.

[mont974x4]

Speaking only for me, and the intent of the OP -

I assumed no such thing.



Sorry, that's just the impression I got from the OP and some of the comments. I certianly didn't intend any offense.

[Jimbeaux]

Not every church wants to be any larger than 50-100. These are often “family” churches ruled over by a patriarch of the family who controls the rest of his family and a small “extended family.” Churches like this usually go through pastors ever couple of years, especially when a pastor comes in with a vision that might cause numerical growth bringing “outsiders” into the church. This presents a threat to the controlling patriarch of the family, who usually runs the small church, and he will usually see to it that the outsiders are made to feel unwelcome and puts the pressure on the pastor to look for greener pastures.

I have seen this happen a lot in our area.

~Jim
The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.

[LeadWorship]

However, the discussion assumes that a church of 50-100 is a bad thing and a church in the 1000's is a good thing.


I wasn't really thinking that either. Actually, I tried to take the opposite view, that the church size might be dependant upon what God's doing in the leader, not necessarily a measure of success. My own church has grown from around 125 to 350, and it takes all the leaders getting involved to maintain that sense of love and devotion and "family-ness" that everyone loves and knows our church for. However, the man that's Pastoring it is definitely who God wants there now. So many changes and so much growth - of the spiritual flavor - are evident of that to me.



...Churches like this usually go through pastors ever couple of years, especially when a pastor comes in with a vision that might cause numerical growth bringing “outsiders” into the church. This presents a threat to the controlling patriarch of the family, who usually runs the small church, and he will usually see to it that the outsiders are made to feel unwelcome and puts the pressure on the pastor to look for greener pastures.

That's one thing I like about our church so much. Our Pastor was placed in, and not voted in. That's also, imo, another benefit of having Apostolic oversight to a church. The man in authority is also a man under authority. I dig it.

[mont974x4]

That's awesome. I love hearing about God moving and working in and through His people.


The church we attend probably avergaes 100-125 people but they do a lot. Having been in most churches in this town, I'd say they do more than most..including the larger churches.