What happens to non-Christians? [Archive]

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astro556

28th July 2008, 11:39 PM

dead2self

29th July 2008, 12:13 AM

Hi there. I must say that in both your examples the person is indeed going to hell along with the other 4.8 billion people who do not profess faith in Jesus. But it gets worse. Likely, a great amny of the 1.8 billion who do profess faith in Chrsti are going to hell as well. There is much teaching in the NT about false converts.

Now while that is the cold hard truth, I do understand it is hard to understand and accept. I struggle with is myslef. It is that concern that drives people into missions. People who do not hear about Jesus in their lives will end up in hell.

If I did not belive in the doctrine of election I would not be able to accept this at all. It seems so random and that a good person could slip through into hell. But I believe what the Bible says about God knowing the ones he would save before the earth was made. Every single person God has elected for grace will be saved. God will make sure of it.

BobW188

29th July 2008, 12:58 AM

Jesus has said that "No one cometh unto the Father but by me," and Jesus knows who loves him - whether they know it or not! All are promised: "Seek and ye shall find." For many, that may not be in this brief life; but at the gateway to eternity

p4tience

29th July 2008, 03:11 AM

Let me answer your question simply.

Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

You see, the end will come only after all nations get a chance to hear the gospel, our Christ. The whole world will hear the testimony of salvation. Only then, the end will come.

God would be no fair God if he did not give a chance for every person to understand and embrace the love of Christ and what he has done for us. All of us, even in other countries, even in Muslim countries, end up making a choice for or against Christ at some point of our life.

Everyone will hear about Christ, the gospel. And only then will come the end of the world. Until then, all of us get a chance to choose Christ.

I hope that helps,
Anna

:)

astro556

29th July 2008, 05:00 AM

Thanks, you guys are helpful! Sorry if I repeated the question, I just noticed the "Question about Hell" thread. Oops!

So, p4tience and BobW188... If I'm understanding you correctly, before the end everyone will have a chance to be saved?

Nadiine

29th July 2008, 06:46 AM

:wave:
Biblically, everyone knows God exists by seeing the Creation God has made visibly. "The heavens declare the glory of God" (they are His visible signature)
Psalm 19:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=19&verse=1&version=50&context=verse)
The heavens declare the glory of God;
And the firmament shows His handiwork.

Romans 1 teaches this too:
Unbelief and Its Consequences

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth (know truth, but push it down) in unrighteousness,

19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%201:18-32;&version=49 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%201:18-32;&version=49);

God has already revealed Himself to everyone visibly with His creation and all are responsible to accept that as a basic standard. That's called "general revelation" of God to all humanity.
So that means nobody is without excuse to reject God on that basis.

(remembering that we're right now in the age of the "grace covenant" where Jesus has physically come and revealed truth visibly). (more 'revelation' of God has been spread since that time).
John 3:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=3&verse=19&version=50&context=verse)
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Acts 17:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=17&verse=30&version=50&context=verse)
Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked,
but now commands all men everywhere to repent,

Outside general revelation, there are other types of revelation that God gives us of Himself - there are/were literal miracles done before people's eyes - those are supernatural revelations shown to many people. They're accountable to believe with that evidence.

Then there's the Bible & Christian witnesses that bring God's special revelation - which is more detailed information.

Then there is Private revelation - where God reveals Himself directly & speaks truths to you personally; this happens alot and I've heard Muslims who converted to Christianity say that God spoke in their heart and they KNEW it was Him and left Islam.

Then we're taught that we all know right from wrong in our conscience without having written Law:
Rom 2
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%202:14-15;&version=49;

Essentially, man is judged based on the level and amount of knowledge he's been given by God and what he did based on his own moral conscience.
James 4:17
17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

More light, more responsibility in what they should accept and how they live. Less light, less responsibility.

In any case, we can trust this: GOD IS JUST. He won't wrongly judge anyone unfairly.
Whoever ends up eternally separated from Him is exactly who should be separated for reasons God knows becuz only God knows what He showed (revealed) to that person about Himself and what they knew.

Bellicus

29th July 2008, 06:56 AM

Great post by Nadiine.:thumbsup: All I can do is repeat that God is just. He is love, He is light. Nothing He do will be unfair, wrong or bad. There will be nothing to say against him, cause He know what is right and good and He will also let all of us know.

Criada

29th July 2008, 09:51 AM

I find it hard to accept that God will allow anyone to be condemned for not accepting something that they have never heard. God is just, and loving, and he is perfectly capable of making Himself known.
The Bible says that people will be judged according to the light they have received... we can't judge anyone's heart, but God can.
i think we may be surprised at some people we meet in heaven :)

Yab Yum

29th July 2008, 10:34 AM

Jews believe that via compliance with the Noahide Laws the righteous gentiles can be saved whereas many unrighteous Jews will go down to Sheol.

After Vatican II, the doctrine of the RCC has been that "[n]on-Christians can be saved through the grace which God bestows in “ways known to him”"[.]
Congregation For The Doctrine Of The Faith, Doctrinal Note On Some Aspects Of Evangelization.

Ultimately you can be a fundamentalist or a synchretist. A healthy synchretism, if supported by a robust ecumenism, need not degenerate into New Age psychobabble. But to state that the vast swathe of humanity is irredemable is contrary to the message of Jesus.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

dead2self

29th July 2008, 12:06 PM

morningstar2651

29th July 2008, 12:29 PM

I'm not Christian, and I have no place to tell you what to believe on this matter, but I will share some Bible verses to help you work out your beliefs for yourself. ;)

3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

4 The LORD works out everything for his own ends—
even the wicked for a day of disaster.

9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

40"He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them."[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2012:40;&version=31;#fen-NIV-26610a)]
18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Yab Yum

29th July 2008, 12:52 PM

Might I remind people that Jesus said:

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Not a way but the way. No one, and that to me means no one, gets to the Father excepts through Jesus Christ.

Since this was written by John it means that the Hellenistic Logos is the Jewish Theos. Noone gets to the Theos except through the Logos. This statement is universalizable.

Exclusivism in the Bible never refers to soteriology but to responsibility. To be a member of the hodesh community does not mean you are going to be saved, it means you have a special responsibility to love.

Nadiine

29th July 2008, 01:27 PM

does anyone know where the rules of this forum are?

Bellicus

29th July 2008, 01:53 PM

Might I remind people that Jesus said:

6Jesus said to him, "I am(A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=6&version=47&context=verse#cen-ESV-26663A)) the way, and(B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=6&version=47&context=verse#cen-ESV-26663B)) the truth, and(C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=6&version=47&context=verse#cen-ESV-26663C)) the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Not a way but the way. No one, and that to me means no one, gets to the Father excepts through Jesus Christ.

How about Abraham, Moses, Elijah? They got saved by faith. The Queen of Saba got saved from traveling from far away to hear King Salomo's wisdom. Enoch ended up in heaven before he died.

How do you explain that? :)

Jesus said: "Before Abraham was, I am". He has always been, and will always be. :)

God is higher then our thoughts, and his ways are higher then ours. Where we see a wall, he got a door.

Nadiine

29th July 2008, 02:13 PM

How about Abraham, Moses, Elijah? They got saved by faith. The Queen of Saba got saved from traveling from far away to hear King Salomo's wisdom. Enoch ended up in heaven before he died.

How do you explain that? :)

Jesus said: "Before Abraham was, I am". He has always been, and will always be. :)

God is higher then our thoughts, and his ways are higher then ours. Where we see a wall, he got a door.
I so agree with God being so much higher than us :bow: :amen:

I'd only explain that by explaining the Covenant they were in. They were under law and were told (thru Moses at the burning bush) who their God was and God gave them I Am & YHWY, not Yeshua at that time.
They weren't given the revelation of Christ yet (becuz law pointed to the need for a Saviour) and it wasn't binding until Christ came do His salvific work on the cross.
With revelation comes responsibility. The question becomes do all get the same revelation of Christ during the Grace covenant we're in.
(That I'll leave up to God).

We are in the time of Grace - after Christ's crucifixion. (I'd also add that followers of God in the OT also weren't given the Holy Spirit within them upon their belief like we are).
Christ always was, but He had not yet come to impliment the new covenant until He came and they were given a different name in the OT.

That's how I view that - biblically, it all depends on what is revealed by God at certain periods of time.
The people were allowed to divorce in the OT as well, but the NT shows us that God hates divorce and divorcing for reasons other than God's provisions can be causing adultery with others.

morningstar2651

30th July 2008, 12:34 AM

does anyone know where the rules of this forum are?The link is at the top right. I'll save you a trip.:)

http://christianforums.com/faq.php?faq=rules#faq_rule_0

morningstar2651

30th July 2008, 12:48 AM

I'm not Christian, and I have no place to tell you what to believe on this matter, but I will share some Bible verses to help you work out your beliefs for yourself. ;)Here are the verses in context.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%202&version=9;
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=proverbs%2016;&version=9;
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%203;&version=9;
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2012;&version=9;
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%209;&version=9;
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202;&version=9;

Biblegateway also has commentaries that are worth reading.

Nadiine

30th July 2008, 11:50 AM

The link is at the top right. I'll save you a trip.:)

http://christianforums.com/faq.php?faq=rules#faq_rule_0
My bad... lol I meant this subforum.
I wanted to reread them again to make sure of my post reply to your verses becuz I wanted to doublecheck if we could reply so I erased my original asking you for context of all the verses you used.
:cool:

Criada

30th July 2008, 12:00 PM

Don't have any specific ones right now.. but they are coming :)
The general idea, though, is to answer the OP's question... if it develops into a discussion, it's probably best ti start a thread somewhere else and direct people to it:)

chilehed

30th July 2008, 08:05 PM

Hi! :wave:

I'm not trying to start a debate here, but I've always wondered this and never could find a good answer... Currently the world population is around 6.6 billion people, and of them only an expected 1.8 billion are Christians... My question is, what happens to the rest?...I'm having a hard time believing that the other 4.8 billion people in the world are automatically going to hell, some of which will never even have a chance to hear about Jesus!I always had a hard time believing it, too. It seemed irreconcilable with the perfect justice of God for folks to automatically burn because of something completely out of their control. And it seemed irreconcilable because it is irreconcilable. The idea that one must have heard of Jesus in order to be saved is a Protestant idea of fairly recent origin.

All Christians agree that Scripture says that salvation is due to the grace of God and the merits of Christ alone.

Scripture says that everyone has some idea of God. And everyone does, even if that idea is nothing more than being able to distinguish between oneself and others and having some concept of right and wrong.

Scripture also says that even those who have never heard the gospel have no excuse, which means that God must make some sort of provision for those people. And Jesus said that He has other sheep who are “not of this fold”.

The Catholic Church teaches that “those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation”.

God gives everyone the grace and ability to make a freewill decision for or against him, at some time in their lives - and he does not hold us accountable for that which we cannot know. Everyone who ends up in hell will be there because they rejected the grace that God gave them by which they could have turned to him. They won't be there because they didn't accept something that they couldn't have accepted because God didn't give it to them.