T-shirt Icons

[JustinHesychast]

For a few new school shirts (which I had planned on not getting :P), I found at Wal-Mart this thing where you can print off your own designs and iron it onto your t-shirt. My initial plans were for icons with Scripture or Fathers. Then I was thinking.... an icon? Is that OK? I mean, I'd be leaning against it all day, washing it, etc. I don't want to be disrespectful or use iconography willy-nilly. And as much as I think it would be OK, I also think at the same time that it isn't acceptable.

Thoughts?

[MariaRegina]

Think of it this way -- we are to be icons of Christ.

We Christians are to bring the gospel to the world.

We are all called to be priests, prophets, and kings.

[-Kyriaki-]

What I posted on DC:

I think that's the general consensus we agreed on a while ago.

You're going to get it dirty, scrunch it up and leave it on the floor/chuck it in the washing machine, wear it until it wears off (those things often do) or gets holes in it, and then throw it out.

That's not how we treat icons...

[juliagreece]

How is someone going to come up to you and venerate your T-Shirt?

[Michael the Iconographer]

Justin, icons are not art, they are meant for veneration. I know your intent is good, but I think you should not pursue it because it is not showing the proper respect that an icon deserves.

[Kristos]

I think men on film would give that two thumbs down. But it's a nice thought.

A another good idea, would be to laminate a small icon that you can carry with you. Then it won't get damaged.

[copticorthodoxy]

I don't agree with this

[Bushmaster78FS]

My greek godmother actually printed 4 t-shirts for us in this manner. In Korea, where I was baptized, our military Orthodox service consisted of 4 people, my Spiritual Father, Fr. Velez, herself, me and another faithful, James, who was in the AF. Our military fellowship we called, Holy Cross Military fellowship and to honor that, she made t-shirts with the Icon of True Cross printed in the back, and with the verse Matt. 18:20 on the front pocket. No, I never dirtied it, never tossed it around, never threw it on the floor, etc.

[Xpycoctomos]

I think men on film would give that two thumbs down. But it's a nice thought.

A another good idea, would be to laminate a small icon that you can carry with you. Then it won't get damaged.

"hated it!" (I haven't thought of men on film in years! lol)

But seriously Justin, I'm glad you asked this. It's a nice thought, but in the end, for the very reasons you gave, not a good idea. Also, it can be extremely dangerous to "flaunt" our Christianity. While it's not a rule, there is a tradition in many Orthodox regions that people wear their crosses under their clothing so as not invite the temptation of pride. My point isn't that you should put your cross under your shirt (although many priests would say it's a good idea) but that wearing an icon in a place where most people are not Orthodox can bring about more temptation to be prideful than any possible witness it can bring.

Personally, I think "Jesus" shirts are generally not a good idea. THe Gift and Bible phenomenon has unwittingly turned Christianity into a high school fad that has more to do with clever cliches and quips than real action.

It's a beautiful thought on yoru part, but in general, I persoanlly think it's best to not throw pearls to swine. Hold your faith close to you and in your heart. Ponder Christ and then in order to witness to others, all you will need is showing love towards others and not even speaking one word (unless asked). THis is actually a lot harder than standing on a street corner and preaching the word.

I'm glad to see, however, your enthusiasm for the Faith. God bless you Justin!

Xpy

[Xpycoctomos]

My greek godmother actually printed 4 t-shirts for us in this manner. In Korea, where I was baptized, our military Orthodox service consisted of 4 people, my Spiritual Father, Fr. Velez, herself, me and another faithful, James, who was in the AF. Our military fellowship we called, Holy Cross Military fellowship and to honor that, she made t-shirts with the Icon of True Cross printed in the back, and with the verse Matt. 18:20 on the front pocket. No, I never dirtied it, never tossed it around, never threw it on the floor, etc.

However, I will not dare to question a Greek Godmother. She can make all of the t-shirts she wants! :)

I suppose I reserve my comments above for US civilians ;)

[MariaRegina]

St. Paul's Greek Orthodox Church in Irvine, California printed Icons on T-shirts.
They told people to respect those shirts and I think most did.

However, I have not seen those shirts on sale again, so I think the idea was scrapped.

It is hard for people to act 100% Christian all of the time, unless they are saints.

Whether it is wearing the cross outside of one's clothes in full view of everyone, or wearing a religious garb, such as a priest or monastic does, you are giving a witness that you are a Christian, for good or for bad. If we sin, then we give scandal.

[Michael the Iconographer]

St. Paul's Greek Orthodox Church in Irvine, California printed Icons on T-shirts.
They told people to respect those shirts and I think most did.

However, I have not seen those shirts on sale again, so I think the idea was scrapped.

It is hard for people to act 100% Christian all of the time, unless they are saints.

Whether it is wearing the cross outside of one's clothes in full view of everyone, or wearing a religious garb, such as a priest or monastic does, you are giving a witness that you are a Christian, for good or for bad. If we sin, then we give scandal.

Wearing an icon on a t-shirt is a little different than wearing a cross. There is a canon which states that icons must be made of a permanent material on a solid surface. I fail to see how t-shirt icons fit into this canon. There is also the veneration aspect, and again I fail to see how an icon on someones shirt can be venerated.

[Protoevangel]

Wearing an icon on a t-shirt is a little different than wearing a cross. There is a canon which states that icons must be made of a permanent material on a solid surface. I fail to see how t-shirt icons fit into this canon. There is also the veneration aspect, and again I fail to see how an icon on someones shirt can be venerated.
Hi Michael,

I appreciate your input in this thread, what you say makes a lot of sense.

If I could, I'd like to present a couple of thoughts I had. I haven't developed or pondered the thoughts much, so they may be completely invalid. But I figured I would put them out there for your, and hopefully Matthew's feedback.

You mention that icons must be made of a permanent material on a solid surface. That kind of makes Icons being printed on bulletins problematic, doesn't it?

On the other hand, I seem to remember hearing at one point, that just having the image of an Icon doesn't make it an Icon. So we don't have to worry when we recycle the bulletins.

If that is the case, I wonder if having the image of an Icon on a t-shirt would fall under a similar "gray area".

Just so you know, I tend to think that Icons on t-shirts seems somewhat impious and tacky. I'm not arguing with you, in fact, I am hoping for you to correct the points above, if they need correction.

Thank you.

[angelosgabriel]

It seems overly simplistic to say that icons have to be venerated. I have seen many icons placed so as to prevent veneration (e.g. our Mystic Supper is above the Royal Doors- you would need a ladder to venerate it). From what I understand, icons also serve a pedagogical purpose in expressing the faith without words.

Also, there are some who would say wearing one's cross beneath one's clothing is an innovation- Every one who confess Christ before men, He also will confess in him before His Father who is in the heavens.

[Greg the byzantine]

I've seen a Greek Afternoon School that had t-shirts printed with the Patron of the Church. I kind of liked them. Here's a mock-up of a T-shirt that I once thought of having printed, I never had it made though:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3239/2754315910_6ea7a536c4_o.jpg

[MariaRegina]

Several Greek Orthodox Churches print icons on T-shirts for summer camp.

I am not saying that this is right, but it is being done with the priest's blessing.

However, what really bothers me are the paper images of Icons that are printed on Church bulletins. Then I see these icons tossed into the garbage can at church, and then coffee is poured on top of them. Why?

[Michael the Iconographer]

It seems overly simplistic to say that icons have to be venerated. I have seen many icons placed so as to prevent veneration (e.g. our Mystic Supper is above the Royal Doors- you would need a ladder to venerate it). From what I understand, icons also serve a pedagogical purpose in expressing the faith without words.

Also, there are some who would say wearing one's cross beneath one's clothing is an innovation- Every one who confess Christ before men, He also will confess in him before His Father who is in the heavens.

Your understanding of verneration is a bit off skew here. The very fact an icon is in a church and thus present for a Divine Liturgy and other services means it gets venerated (whether directly or indirectly) numerous times per week.

Overly simplistic that icons must be venerated? The Church teaches that without prayer being involved in the equation an icon ceases to be an icon and is simply a painting. The pedagogical purpose of the icon is secondary to its role in prayer and may never surpass or overrule the role of the icon in prayer. Yes the icon teaches, but first and foremost it is a prayer.

[Xpycoctomos]

Several Greek Orthodox Churches print icon on the T-shirts for summer camp.

I am not saying that this is right, but it is being done with the priest's blessing.

However, what really bothers me are the paper images of Icons that are printed on Church bulletins. Then I see these icons tossed into the garbage can at church, and then coffee is poured on top of them. Why?


Fr Thomas (Hopko) is with you on this. He thinks it's very irresponsable and should be gone about more responsably. I can't really disagree with him. I doubt St. Luke had the "disposable" icon in mind when he was writing the Theotokos with Child. Surely a bit of balance needs to be employed in this, but I would think it safe to say that their primary function would be to be didactic through veneration.

But I'm not a priest.

Personally,I'm just uncomfortable with the whole t-shirt thing because it reminds me of Gift and Bible fads and I have a hard time seeing the purpose or good in it.

Xpy

[Michael the Iconographer]

Fr Thomas (Hopko) is with you on this. He thinks it's very irresponsable and should be gone about more responsably. I can't really disagree with him. I doubt St. Luke had the "disposable" icon in mind when he was writing the Theotokos with Child. Surely a bit of balance needs to be employed in this, but I would think it safe to say that their primary function would be to be didactic through veneration.

But I'm not a priest.

Personally,I'm just uncomfortable with the whole t-shirt thing because it reminds me of Gift and Bible fads and I have a hard time seeing the purpose or good in it.

Xpy

Fr. Hopko is right. I doubt most people save their church bulletins every Sunday the way I do. I have a HUGE file of icons that I have saved from bulletins and calendars and thus any time I want an example of any icon I have many, many to choose from (and that is not even taking into consideration the dozens of icon books that I have). That being said, if people do not save their bulletins with icons on them, what do they do with them? Throw them away and that is just not the proper use of an icon.

[Xpycoctomos]

He says his mother used to save them all. He personally burns them with other holy objects (priests have things they need to burn every year) and then buries them in the back yard.

XPy

[Bushmaster78FS]

Well, she is Greek-American and was a Colonel in the AirForce at the time... :D

[Michael the Iconographer]

Several Greek Orthodox Churches print icon on the T-shirts for summer camp.
I am not saying that this is right, but it is being done with the priest's blessing.

However, what really bothers me are the paper images of Icons that are printed on Church bulletins. Then I see these icons tossed into the garbage can at church, and then coffee is poured on top of them. Why?

Just because a local church does something does not make it right.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Hi Michael,

I appreciate your input in this thread, what you say makes a lot of sense.

If I could, I'd like to present a couple of thoughts I had. I haven't developed or pondered the thoughts much, so they may be completely invalid. But I figured I would put them out there for your, and hopefully Matthew's feedback.

You mention that icons must be made of a permanent material on a solid surface. That kind of makes Icons being printed on bulletins problematic, doesn't it?

On the other hand, I seem to remember hearing at one point, that just having the image of an Icon doesn't make it an Icon. So we don't have to worry when we recycle the bulletins.

If that is the case, I wonder if having the image of an Icon on a t-shirt would fall under a similar "gray area".

Just so you know, I tend to think that Icons on t-shirts seems somewhat impious and tacky. I'm not arguing with you, in fact, I am hoping for you to correct the points above, if they need correction.

Thank you.

Bulletins with icons on them are a bit problematic. Yes the images on the bulletins are not really icons per se because they are not being venerated and all. The church justifies the situation because the icons are there for their secondary role, as teacher. But the disrespect shown to those images by your average Orthodox Christian who often pays very little attention to what happens to the bulletin after DL is a problem that should be taken into consideration.

Until recently the Church took a very hard line position on what is and what is not an icon. It did not even recognize mounted prints as icons. The MP was one of the last to budge on this position and many of its earlier statements rule out the use of mounted paper icons. The fact that I am willing to make mounted prints of my own icons as well as some of the more famous icons which I have taken from calendars shows that I am atleast a little flexible in this line of thought, but at the same time I still dislike paper icons.

As for clothing, I really have an issue with icons on shirts. I bought a few pro-life shirts made by non-Orthodox years before becoming Orthodox that have icons on them. At the time I viewed the icons as just art. I no longer see them as that. So what do I do with the shirts? I can't wear them because I would feel wierd having people venerate my chest, and at the same time I can't just throw them away. I will have to burn them when I dispose of them. But what about all of the rest of the people who bought such shirts? I doubt they will go to the same extent to burn them. And isn't it just a tad disrespectful to the icon to have it sitting in a pile of dirty clothes in the laundry room and to go through the whole laundering process?

For those of you who are thinking about vestments and want to use the fact we have icons on priests vestments as a grounds for having icons on shirts, let me preemtively tackle that subject. Icons are on vestments for liturgical purposes. The vestments themselves are not venerated, but are used in veneration. The icons on the vestments do not recieve direct veneration but they are part of veneration and thus still have their meaning in prayer. Icons always have their primary meaning in prayer and all of their other meanings and roles are always secondary to prayer. The vestments with the icons on them are handled with extreme care and are only worn for very select situations, namely liturgical services. Thus the argument that icons are on vestments is not at all comparable to the argument that icons should be allowed on t-shirts.

[Xpycoctomos]

For those of you who are thinking about vestments and want to use the fact we have icons on priests vestments as a grounds for having icons on shirts, let me preemtively tackle that subject. Icons are on vestments for liturgical purposes. The vestments themselves are not venerated, but are used in veneration. The icons on the vestments do not recieve direct veneration but they are part of veneration and thus still have their meaning in prayer. Icons always have their primary meaning in prayer and all of their other meanings and roles are always secondary to prayer. The vestments with the icons on them are handled with extreme care and are only worn for very select situations, namely liturgical services. Thus the argument that icons are on vestments is not at all comparable to the argument that icons should be allowed on t-shirts.

Actually, my priest always kisses the icon on his cloak (what's the real name.. a fullonium???) before putting it on. So, while it is still true what you say that it's primary purpose is not for direct veneration, it still does get directly venerated as a rule (at least in the Russian tradition so it would seem). Your point still stands. I just thought that this fact might strengthen your overall point in this thread.

Xpy

[Michael the Iconographer]

Actually, my priest always kisses the icon on his cloak (what's the real name.. a fullonium???) before putting it on. So, while it is still true what you say that it's primary purpose is not for direct veneration, it still does get directly venerated as a rule (at least in the Russian tradition so it would seem). Your point still stands. I just thought that this fact might strengthen your overall point in this thread.

Xpy

I forgot about that part of the robing of a priest where he actually kisses the vestments. Thank you for reminding me of that.

[Anhelyna]

Xpy

try Phelonion :D

[Xpycoctomos]

Xpy

try Phelonion :D

THat's it! Grazie!

[Michael the Iconographer]

THat's it! Grazie!

We need english terms for the vestments for those of us who were not born speaking Greek, Arabic or Slavonic.

[Xpycoctomos]

I don't think so. It just becomes and English Liturgical term. A lot of these words translate to mundane objects and just sound funny and sometimes don't offer for clarity whereas these terms do. I forget them, but Fr Thomas Hopko was talking a bit about this and (as a made up example but to demonstrate the simplicity of it) some fancy word everyone knew referred to the table in specific area of the Churcht hat served a specific role just translated as "table". But by just using the foreign term (which is probably from an antequated form of the language any way) everyone knows exactly what is being spoken of.

Now that I have seen (and not just heard) the word, I will be able to remember it much better.

Xpy

[Anhelyna]

Michael - for once I will disagree with you most strongly

Let us keep the names of the vestments in Liturgical terminology and not use common , everyday terms .

Lets keep some mystery

[Rowan]

A free t-shirt I got from the OCF Conference last year has a huge icon of Christ on the back (gets a lot of attention on campus) and the others I bought have an image of the cross on it.

Wearing them business-as-usual doesn't bother my conscience, though.

So...*shrug*

[Michael the Iconographer]

A free t-shirt I got from the OCF Conference last year has a huge icon of Christ on the back (gets a lot of attention on campus) and the others I bought have an image of the cross on it.

Wearing them business-as-usual doesn't bother my conscience, though.

So...*shrug*

It doesn't bother your conscience to have an icon of Christ on a shirt that you treat as an every day shirt?

If it is sacrilege to treat an icon with anything less than total respect, how is it not sacrilege to do the same to an icon that is on a shirt?

[Rowan]

I'm someone who let their younger cousins race their cars on the hard-cover of her Bible while thanking God for them. Just as some of my relatives mark all over their Bibles and others keep them immaculate.

No, it doesn't hurt my conscience because that happens to not be the way my heart offends God. It may be for Justin, which is why I left my answer open-ended. It's not the same for anyone.

edit - Jesus is Someone I should be putting on every day.

[MariaRegina]

What would you say, Michael, about a Greek teenager who is having a huge icon of the Holy Cross tattooed on his back? I mean this icon is huge. It is at least 10 inches wide.

Of course, I do not approve.

[MariaRegina]

What would you say, Michael, about a Greek teenager who is having a huge icon of the Holy Cross tattooed on his back? I mean this icon is huge. It is at least 10 inches wide.

Of course, I do not approve.

[Michael the Iconographer]

I'm someone who let their younger cousins race their cars on the hard-cover of her Bible while thanking God for them. Just as some of my relatives mark all over their Bibles and others keep them immaculate.

No, it doesn't hurt my conscience because that happens to not be the way my heart offends God. It may be for Justin, which is why I left my answer open-ended. It's not the same for anyone.

edit - Jesus is Someone I should be putting on every day.

Icons are not something to put on, they are to be venerated. It is sad you have so little respect for them.

[Michael the Iconographer]

What would you say, Michael, about a Greek teenager who is having a huge icon of the Holy Cross tattooed on his back? I mean this icon is huge. It is at least 10 inches wide.

Of course, I do not approve.

Tatoos are a totally different subject and I am not going to derail this thread with an indepth discussion of tatoos. I will only mention that the OT makes it perfectly clear we are not to mutilate our bodies and I don't see how a tatoo is anything but a mutilation of the body.

[Xpycoctomos]

Too late... derailed :)

Don't some copts tatoo their bodies for religious reasons (I could be wrong on this but I think a coptic woman who visits our Church has a small cross tattooed on her forehead... please correct me any OOs)? I guess i don't really see it as mutilation. I see where you are coming from. But in the same way piercing ears is a mutilation. I got my ear pierced 10 years ago and haven't worn a piercing for 7 years now. I still have a mark there that is easily identifiable to anyone who looks at my left earlobe, in fact I can still feel it at this moment. I suppose I see that as mutilation from a technical standpoint. And, perhaps the OT did too, but if that is true, I don't think most Orthodox women in the world heed that nor does the Church seem to pay it any mind.

Xpy

[Michael the Iconographer]

Too late... derailed :)

Don't some copts tatoo their bodies for religious reasons (I could be wrong on this but I think a coptic woman who visits our Church has a small cross tattooed on her forehead... please correct me any OOs)? I guess i don't really see it as mutilation. I see where you are coming from. But in the same way piercing ears is a mutilation. I got my ear pierced 10 years ago and haven't worn a piercing for 7 years now. I still have a mark there that is easily identifiable to anyone who looks at my left earlobe, in fact I can still feel it at this moment. I suppose I see that as mutilation from a technical standpoint. And, perhaps the OT did too, but if that is true, I don't think most Orthodox women in the world heed that nor does the Church seem to pay it any mind.

Xpy

A piercing of the ears is one thing, having a symbol inscribed into your skin is quite another thing. I would be interested to find out the view of the bishops in relation to eligibility for ordination, but I do know the Roman Church takes the view that any man who has a tatoo must get permission from his bishop to be ordained because of the tatoo, based on the OT teaching against marking or mutilating ones body.

[Xpycoctomos]

That's very interesting about the RCC and makes it worth looking into.

Now, I do see your distinction between a hole and a permanent symbol, and it's a good point. However, it cuts away from the mutilation argument. The OT forbids mutilation, not permanent symbols (especially to one's God). It's a different issue altogether.

And following the permanent symbols argument. I do like it and that would make me think AT LEAST twice before ever getting a tattoo of anything mundane. It's a good point... however, to me it almost reinforces the idea of getting a Christian symbol tattooed in an inconspicuous place (inconspicuous becuase I don't think we should wear symbols with the purpose of having others see, but for ourselves.

With that said, hat would be wrong with getting a tattoo of the three-barred cross on my ankle as a constant and personal reminder of Whom I belong to that can never be taken away by anyone else?

I guess I am just not personally convinced that the Scriptures is speaking to this, but rather to something more cultural that was happening... like REAL mutilation that changes the shape and structure of the body and that was, perhaps, done as pagan rituals (a lot of bodily mutilation in the world has had spiritual meaning to it). A hole in my mom's ear is mutilation in every sense of the word. There's no getting around it but, again, I think the OT was getting at something deeper and perhaps more poignant to practices of that time.

I could be wrong. It would be interesting if anyone could quote Orthodox sources regarding the meaning of that or tattooing. I'm SURE that there are Orthodox writings against tattooing, but I don't know how representative or authoratative they would be. Nevertheless, I would be willing to be convinced. I mean, I'm not FOR tattoos and I don't have one so for me there really is no real soul searching that would need to be done to be convinced.

For me, the most compelling thing you've said which really makes me still wonder if there is perhaps something to that OT-tattoo connection is the current RC practice. I think I will wander on over to OBOB and learn more about that.

Xpy

[Michael the Iconographer]

That's very interesting about the RCC and makes it worth looking into.

Now, I do see your distinction between a hole and a permanent symbol, and it's a good point. However, it cuts away from the mutilation argument. The OT forbids mutilation, not permanent symbols (especially to one's God). It's a different issue altogether.

And following the permanent symbols argument. I do like it and that would make me think AT LEAST twice before ever getting a tattoo of anything mundane. It's a good point... however, to me it almost reinforces the idea of getting a Christian symbol tattooed in an inconspicuous place (inconspicuous becuase I don't think we should wear symbols with the purpose of having others see, but for ourselves.

With that said, hat would be wrong with getting a tattoo of the three-barred cross on my ankle as a constant and personal reminder of Whom I belong to that can never be taken away by anyone else?

I guess I am just not personally convinced that the Scriptures is speaking to this, but rather to something more cultural that was happening... like REAL mutilation that changes the shape and structure of the body and that was, perhaps, done as pagan rituals (a lot of bodily mutilation in the world has had spiritual meaning to it). A hole in my mom's ear is mutilation in every sense of the word. There's no getting around it but, again, I think the OT was getting at something deeper and perhaps more poignant to practices of that time.

I could be wrong. It would be interesting if anyone could quote Orthodox sources regarding the meaning of that or tattooing. I'm SURE that there are Orthodox writings against tattooing, but I don't know how representative or authoratative they would be. Nevertheless, I would be willing to be convinced. I mean, I'm not FOR tattoos and I don't have one so for me there really is no real soul searching that would need to be done to be convinced.

For me, the most compelling thing you've said which really makes me still wonder if there is perhaps something to that OT-tattoo connection is the current RC practice. I think I will wander on over to OBOB and learn more about that.

Xpy

I know the RC practice is in force because 10 years ago when I was in RC seminary for a year a number of friends of mine told me they had to get permission to attend seminary directly from the bishop based on tatoos they had gotten long before becoming seminarians.

A permanent marking of a 3 bar cross might be tolerable in my line of thought ONLY because it would be a permanent marking of whom I belong to: Jesus Christ. I might agree with you on that one. However, a permanent marking of something that looks like an icon would not be tolerable because as I have said all along, icons are only icons in the context of prayer and I think the human body should be prayed to. Any other symbol would be too vague to have marked on your body. And as for mundane things, I stand by what I have said before that I feel they do dishonor to the human body and I have much more troubling things to worry about in life than to add that to the list of things which I would be judged for.

[Rowan]

Icons are not something to put on, they are to be venerated. It is sad you have so little respect for them.

Come on. I can't get the benefit of the doubt, here?

Desecration begins at the heart. I can still kiss my paper icon I've had of St. Katherine I've had in my purse since I was a catechumen with all the accumulated grime that anything gets on it while being stored forever in a purse because of this: just as there is nothing I can offer God that is already His, there is nothing I can smudge His icon with that He hasn't created. Katherine knows I love her.

Take the grit in my purse--He spit on the same type of grit to make a blind man see. He was baptized in the same kind of molecules that make the water in the over-priced washing machine cycles I wash my clothes in.

Some of our most beautiful icons are not pristine -- they are cracked and chipped and dark with soot. I guess the elements of the earth and the aging that comes with time have no respect for God? How dare they.

[Greg the byzantine]

Come on. I can't get the benefit of the doubt, here?

Desecration begins at the heart. I can still kiss my paper icon I've had of St. Katherine I've had in my purse since I was a catechumen with all the accumulated grime that anything gets on it while being stored forever in a purse because of this: just as there is nothing I can offer God that is already His, there is nothing I can smudge His icon with that He hasn't created. Katherine knows I love her.

Take the grit in my purse--He spit on the same type of grit to make a blind man see. He was baptized in the same kind of molecules that make the water in the over-priced washing machine cycles I wash my clothes in.

Some of our most beautiful icons are not pristine -- they are cracked and chipped and dark with soot. I guess the elements of the earth and the aging that comes with time have no respect for God? How dare they.
:thumbsup:
Unfortunately I can't rep you.

[Andrew21091]

Don't some copts tatoo their bodies for religious reasons (I could be wrong on this but I think a coptic woman who visits our Church has a small cross tattooed on her forehead... please correct me any OOs)?



I have heard that the some Copts will get a cross on the forehead as a sign of martyrdom in defiance to the Muslims.

I've also heard that some people get a small cross tattooed on the hand when they visit the Holy Land. I don't see a problem with that but when it comes to getting an icon tattooed on your body, that’s when it is a problem. I agree with Michael on this issue. I think wearing an icon on a shirt or having a tattoo of one is wrong since icons are sacred and we shouldn't disrespect them. If it's on a t-shirt, then it will just be thrown in the laundry with the dirty underwear and I don't think that really shows much respect toward the icon. Tattoos aren't good because it is a form of mutilation and it shows disrespect toward the body that God gave us.

[Anhelyna]

:thumbsup:
Unfortunately I can't rep you.

Your wish is my command :D - done

[Michael the Iconographer]

Some of our most beautiful icons are not pristine -- they are cracked and chipped and dark with soot. I guess the elements of the earth and the aging that comes with time have no respect for God? How dare they.

They are not pristine from years of candles and incense being burned in front of them, from millions of lips kissing them in veneration. Yes they are dirty, but they are dirty from being venerated and prayed before. They are not dirty just because someone wore them on a shirt and was careless to take proper care of them or let little boys play with toy cars on top of them. They are chipped and cracked because of this same thing, time and the use taking their tole on the icons. They are not cracked from lack of respect but rather because we have venerated them for centuries. There is a monumental difference here.

[Greg the byzantine]

Yes and the Priest takes Holy Water and douses everyone with it and we step on top of it when we walk out of church, get it in our hair, and on our clothes and then take these same clothes and wash them with our other clothes.

Nobody is going to go out there and take a shirt with an image of an icon on it and willfully stain it and try to damage or desecrate the image. If it does become worn over time then that is a natural process. If they do deliberately destroy the shirt, then nothing is stopping them from doing that to an authentic Holy Icon which was written in an Orthodox Tradition and kept in the Holy Altar for Forty days, and they would probably have no qualms about doing it.

In the end after all God will come and judge our hearts and if he thinks we were trying to disrespect something Holy he will judge us accordingly. Then again think even how he will judge us even more when we disrespect our fellow Man.

[Anhelyna]

Now there are words of commonsense .

And another thought - how many of us are wearing neck crosses ? They are in contact with other things - and we venerate them [ our neck crosses I mean].

I think we have to be careful that we are not being too rigid in the way we view these things.

[nutroll]

Yes and the Priest takes Holy Water and douses everyone with it and we step on top of it when we walk out of church, get it in our hair, and on our clothes and then take these same clothes and wash them with our other clothes.

Nobody is going to go out there and take a shirt with an image of an icon on it and willfully stain it and try to damage or desecrate the image. If it does become worn over time then that is a natural process. If they do deliberately destroy the shirt, then nothing is stopping them from doing that to an authentic Holy Icon which was written in an Orthodox Tradition and kept in the Holy Altar for Forty days, and they would probably have no qualms about doing it.

In the end after all God will come and judge our hearts and if he thinks we were trying to disrespect something Holy he will judge us accordingly. Then again think even how he will judge us even more when we disrespect our fellow Man.

You are correct that God will judge our hearts. But why should we make it easy for people to disrespect something holy? We no longer allow people to take a portion of the Body of Christ home to partake of during the week. This is to protect people from doing something disrespectful or careless with it. That is all that is being suggested. One could take an icon off the wall and throw it in the washing machine, or walk on it, or whatever, but most of us are more careful, more mindful of icons hanging in an icon corner or a church because those are places of prayer. Our shirts are articles of clothing. They must be washed on a regular basis. The alternative is that they become soiled or unpleasant smelling. So some questions to those who would wear a shirt with an icon on it:

Do you wash the shirt by hand with respect for what it depicts, or do you throw it in the laundry with your dirty undies?

Do you wear a bib when you eat so that you don't spill baked beans on Jesus' face?

And most important, do you live up to the image that you are wearing, or do you make a mockery out of that image by your actions?

I will admit that this is a recent dilemma that has not been adequately addressed by those who know best. Before color printing on fabric became easy and economical the only time you would see an icon on fabric was on vestments, or an epitaphion, or something used liturgically. There was no need for prohibition or rules concerning this. And I agree that there are similar issues that pose similar questions, such as the issue of church bulletins. And I don't think we need to forbid the practice, but we should really be aware of what it is that we are doing. It would be better to exhibit the humility of a saint than to wear a t-shirt with his picture. It would be better to show the compassion and love that Christ commands of us than to wear a picture of him on our golf shirt or baseball cap.

Icons are meant to be used liturgically. They are not meant to be a decoration for an otherwise drab shirt. They are not an Orthodox equivalent of a button that says ask me about my faith. They are not supposed to be a reminder to be a good person while at school. To be fair, none of those are bad things, but they aren't what icons are made for.

[nutroll]

And another thought - how many of us are wearing neck crosses ? They are in contact with other things - and we venerate them [ our neck crosses I mean].


A neck cross, however is an icon and is made on/out of permanent materials. Perhaps everyone that really needs to have an icon with them could just carry an icon in procession everywhere they go...

[choirfiend]

I think Nutroll has the anti- argument phrased most accurately. Is it taking something holy and causing it to be more mundane, or preventing it from being treated with the care that things blessed in the church are to be treated?

And I understand the pro- argument as well. It is not out of a ridiculous wish to disrespect an icon that one would put one on a shirt. But still, I have to direct the pro- people back to Nutroll's words--is it taking something "set-apart," AKA holy, and making it no longer set-apart? It is going to be treated with the care, respect, and veneration that it should be?

[Greg the byzantine]

I think Nutroll has the anti- argument phrased most accurately. Is it taking something holy and causing it to be more mundane, or preventing it from being treated with the care that things blessed in the church are to be treated?

And I understand the pro- argument as well. It is not out of a ridiculous wish to disrespect an icon that one would put one on a shirt. But still, I have to direct the pro- people back to Nutroll's words--is it taking something "set-apart," AKA holy, and making it no longer set-apart? It is going to be treated with the care, respect, and veneration that it should be?


as you and nutroll responded I was actually in the mall and saw one of those rediculous "Mary is my Homegirl" T-shirts and just realized what you both mean . I guess icon tee are just a step away from that. I still think that in the right setting they can be acceptable, like church camp or church school, maybe not as everyday wear.

[Rowan]

The anti-argument is intelligible; I gave my opinion assuming everybody (esp. the OP) here was Orthodox and understood the significance of icons, their role in worship, and that the display of them doesn't replace the practice of Christian virtue.

[Xpycoctomos]

I know the RC practice is in force because 10 years ago when I was in RC seminary for a year a number of friends of mine told me they had to get permission to attend seminary directly from the bishop based on tatoos they had gotten long before becoming seminarians.

A permanent marking of a 3 bar cross might be tolerable in my line of thought ONLY because it would be a permanent marking of whom I belong to: Jesus Christ. I might agree with you on that one. However, a permanent marking of something that looks like an icon would not be tolerable because as I have said all along, icons are only icons in the context of prayer and I think the human body should be prayed to. Any other symbol would be too vague to have marked on your body. And as for mundane things, I stand by what I have said before that I feel they do dishonor to the human body and I have much more troubling things to worry about in life than to add that to the list of things which I would be judged for.

I agree personally with that. Actually I see a much bigger problem with a t-shirt, though, than it being on skin. But I totally see your point and wouldn't suggest that anyone get an icon tattoo for the reasons you mentioned above. My only point was that I don't buy that it is connected to OT mutilation (at this point).

But again, I don't like Christian t-shirts and all that. I say, live a like a Christian and the rest will follow. A t-shirt will not convert anyone and it will do no good for the soul of the person wearing it (my very personal POV on this... but i know great people who have Orthodox t-shirts and I'm not going to judge them for it... simply a difference of opinion).

Xpy

[Xpycoctomos]

as you and nutroll responded I was actually in the mall and saw one of those rediculous "Mary is my Homegirl" T-shirts and just realized what you both mean . I guess icon tee are just a step away from that. I still think that in the right setting they can be acceptable, like church camp or church school, maybe not as everyday wear.

That's exactly the faddiness I do NOT want to see in Orthodoxy.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Icons are meant to be used liturgically. They are not meant to be a decoration for an otherwise drab shirt. They are not an Orthodox equivalent of a button that says ask me about my faith. They are not supposed to be a reminder to be a good person while at school. To be fair, none of those are bad things, but they aren't what icons are made for.

Exactly! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[juliagreece]

Icons are not a fashion statement.

[Michael the Iconographer]

...But again, I don't like Christian t-shirts and all that. I say, live a like a Christian and the rest will follow. A t-shirt will not convert anyone and it will do no good for the soul of the person wearing it (my very personal POV on this... but i know great people who have Orthodox t-shirts and I'm not going to judge them for it... simply a difference of opinion).

Xpy

It is better to practice Christianity and wear a much more cool t-shirt than a Christian T-shirt. Might I suggest everyone should wear Pittsburgh Steelers t-shirts or even better yet, Dogfish Head Ale t-shirts? :D

[Xpycoctomos]

Or red-wings ;)

[Michael the Iconographer]

Or red-wings ;)

You would never catch me dead in a Red Wings jersey, not even the great Gordie Howe.

[EvangeliGirl]

Hey - It's been a long time TAW!

I wish I could find better info on the whole tattoo thing too... From what I've learned the OT 'mutilation' verse does have to do specifically with the pagan practice of tattooing at the time, and I'm sure their methods were quite unlike the modern practice of putting ink on skin.

I've also heard that the Copt tattoos on women were to protect them from being stolen/raped from Muslims, and that there was even a group of Orthodox monks in times past who were tattooed with crosses.

I'm mostly disappointed whenever I seek out conversations on the topic however, as the majority seem to simply argue their own personal bias for or against, rather than being open enough to an objective evaluation - but I guess solid info is pretty hard to find...

Anyhow, I know of an Orthodox tattoo artist - not personally, though, but I guess he's introduced quite a few people to Orthodoxy while tattooing them.

I've been in a church here in the midwest where my husband was asked to take out his earrings, but in Orange County, CA, for instance, where there are large numbers of tattooed/pierced young people pouring into some churches, it's not an important issue for the priests to worry about.

Maybe kinda like the leniency of the Orthodox church in Amsterdam, where they worry more about sexual perversion and don't keep those who smoke pot from joining the church.

Okay, that's all from me...

[EvangeliGirl]

Hey, I just noticed the ad at the bottom of the page for the latest Jesus t-shirt fad: Get your 1 million for Jesus t-shirt with your personalized number! hehe

Should be 144,000, though, right? Not as profitable I guess. Okay sorry...

[Michael the Iconographer]

Hey, I just noticed the ad at the bottom of the page for the latest Jesus t-shirt fad: Get your 1 million for Jesus t-shirt with your personalized number! hehe

Should be 144,000, though, right? Not as profitable I guess. Okay sorry...

Oh yeah! I just gotta have one of those!!! :D

[Xpycoctomos]

Hey - It's been a long time TAW!

I wish I could find better info on the whole tattoo thing too... From what I've learned the OT 'mutilation' verse does have to do specifically with the pagan practice of tattooing at the time, and I'm sure their methods were quite unlike the modern practice of putting ink on skin.

I've also heard that the Copt tattoos on women were to protect them from being stolen/raped from Muslims, and that there was even a group of Orthodox monks in times past who were tattooed with crosses.

I'm mostly disappointed whenever I seek out conversations on the topic however, as the majority seem to simply argue their own personal bias for or against, rather than being open enough to an objective evaluation - but I guess solid info is pretty hard to find...

Anyhow, I know of an Orthodox tattoo artist - not personally, though, but I guess he's introduced quite a few people to Orthodoxy while tattooing them.

I've been in a church here in the midwest where my husband was asked to take out his earrings, but in Orange County, CA, for instance, where there are large numbers of tattooed/pierced young people pouring into some churches, it's not an important issue for the priests to worry about.

Maybe kinda like the leniency of the Orthodox church in Amsterdam, where they worry more about sexual perversion and don't keep those who smoke pot from joining the church.

Okay, that's all from me...

Interesting thoughts and points. If you could find anything about the OT tattooing thing that woud be great.

I would wonder, however, if it had more to do with the fact that it was a pagan practice... but I don't know.