Free will?

[MsDahl]

Has there been any true instances where God has interfered with man's free will? If not, then what is the best way to understand the time when God hardened the Pharaoh's heart (was that not interfering in man's free will?).

Exodus 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart
Exodus 7:13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart

[Kristos]

My understanding is that some hearts are like clay - fashioned such by life I suppose. God is love/fire. When exposed to fire, clay hardens. When some peoples heart are exposed to God's love, they hardened. So it's not that God made Pharaoh do anything, but He knew what the result of would be of exposing Pharaoh to His love. The only thing that fire doesn't burn is fire, so as St Seraphim said - the goal of the Christian life is to become all flame.

[Lukaris]

In agreement & only mentioning that in the OSB there is a note under Exodus 4:21, "..I will harden his (Pharoah's) heart and he will not let the people go.". The OSB note says, "It is customary for Holy Scripture to call God's permission His action (per St. John of Damascus). Therefore, when the Lord said to Moses,"I will harden his heart", this hardness was by way of divine permission. For Pharoah hardened his own heart through his free choice" On a personal note I also noticed in the OSB translation of Joshua 24:5 (of a larger address St. Joshua is summarizing the Exodus) "But the Egyptians maltreated them, so the Lord smote Egypt for what it did to them." In a New King James Bible I have always had this passage reads, "Also I sent Moses and Aaron, and I plagued Egypt, according to what I did among them. Afterward I brought you out." I think our OSB is becoming most helpful in helping to clear the fuzziness (I think many of us have felt) in previous translations that seem to lend a sense of arbitrariness that clouded our perceptions of divine and free will.

[MsDahl]

Thank you both for responding. Lukaris, it must be nice to be able to reference the notes for OT scripture from an Orthodox perspective.

So, if God does not interfere with our free will, then why should we pray for the heart of someone to change or for a person to walk away from an ungodly path, etc?

[Lukaris]

I am going to venture to guess that if our prayer is effectual, God will provide some insight or opportunity to help illumine an individual to respond (out of one's own free will) in a way that is pleasing to Him. Anything from an immediate healing to repentance immediately preceding death (if necessary) may apply here. Hoping my statment is within proper Orthopraxis & sensible; please correct if need be. God bless.

[vanshan]

I agree with what was said above also.

If you want a more in depth answer, Elder Cleopa's book, The Truth of our Faith, has a very good section on this. His books defends many misunderstood doctrines of Christ, so I can't recommend it highly enough.

Basil

[Chesterton]

I can see how God could interfere with free will for some temporal purpose so long as it did not have any ultimate consequenses for the will involved. If God knows the future, He knew what nature of man Pharaoh would chose to be up to the end of his life. It appears even if God had not hardened his heart, Pharaoh had the kind of wicked heart which was bound for destruction by his own choice anyway. And this is bourne out in the story's ending - after God had let Pharaoh and Egypt "off the hook" and ceased Egypt's judgments, Pharoh of his own accord changed his mind and pursued the Israelites. It's not as if God hardened the heart of an otherwise good man, and God only knows what choice about freeing the Jews Pharaoh would have made on his own. But his own final choice was made out of his own pride, and led to destruction.

[ArmyMatt]

Exodus 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart
Exodus 7:13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart

I guess it depends on how God hardened the heart of Pharoah. I was told to think of it like this:

say you are going to meet some really holy Elder like Elder Ephraim. you meet him one on one and because he is so filled with love and holiness, he "condemns" us for our lack of those virtues. we tend to feel bad, at least in the beginning, because all of our faults are more exposed just by virtue of him being who he is. Elder Ephraim isn't trying to make us feel bad, nor does he will it to happen, but he does make us feel that way because he is so holy and we are not.

it's the same with God. God heardened the heart of Pharoah not by forcing him to harden, but who He is hardened his heart.

[buzuxi02]

When a miracle occurs such as a divine intervention, then we can say God interfered in our free-will or perhapd he did not interfere but simply threw us a curve ball or a "detour" to tajke another route. God may have hardened Pharoahs heart, but it doesnt actually tell us the vehicle he used.
Lets say for instance you find compassion and decide to allow a homeless person into your home, but he takes advantage of it and maybe steals from you, lets say you invite 3 or 4 different people and they were all ungreatful to your hospitality, that will harden your heart and you will change your mind on allowing another into your hom, cause and effect, what happened to JOB is a good illustration.

[Lukaris]

When a miracle occurs such as a divine intervention, then we can say God interfered in our free-will or perhapd he did not interfere but simply threw us a curve ball or a "detour" to tajke another route. God may have hardened Pharoahs heart, but it doesnt actually tell us the vehicle he used.
Lets say for instance you find compassion and decide to allow a homeless person into your home, but he takes advantage of it and maybe steals from you, lets say you invite 3 or 4 different people and they were all ungreatful to your hospitality, that will harden your heart and you will change your mind on allowing another into your hom, cause and effect, what happened to JOB is a good illustration.
A careful read of Sirach 11 & 12 in conformity with the Gospel can assist in our ability to discern & practice charity & avoid hardness of heart.

[Mytheodos]

Here's a great story...

Father Paisios told us the following story wishing to give us an example of the way God looks after His children, while many times we get angry at Him and do not understand His actions: “An ascetic was praying to God asking Him to reveal why the righteous and pious people are miserable and suffer unjustly, whereas the unrighteous and sinful ones are rich and contented. While he was asking to God to reveal to him this mystery, he heard a voice saying to him:
- Do not ask to comprehend what your mind and power of knowledge cannot grasp and do not examine the mysteries of God, as His judgments are like an endless ocean. However, since you wish to know, go out there in the world and watch carefully the people and you will be able to understand a small part of God’s judgment. Then, you will know that God’s prudent governing is unexplored and inscrutable.


When the ascetic heard all this, he left for the world. After walking for a while, he reached a meadow. There was a fountain nearby and an old tree with a large hollow. He hid inside the hollow in order to watch the busy street passing by the meadow. After a while, a rich man passed by riding his horse. He stopped by the fountain to drink some water and rest. While he was sitting there, he took a purse out of his pocket containing one hundred golden coins, and started counting them. When he finished counting, he mistakenly left the purse on the grass instead of putting it in his pocket. After he ate, he rested and slept for a while and then he took off without realising that he had left his purse on the grass.

After some time, another passer-by appeared. He stopped by the fountain and when he saw the purse with the golden coins, he took it and left running in the fields. A few minutes later, a third man came along. As he was tired, he too went by the fountain to drink some water and sat to eat a piece of bread. As this poor man was eating, the rich man came back to look for his purse. He had an extremely angry look on his face and went straight to him, shouting in a rage and demanding his purse. The poor man, though, who had no idea about the purse and the golden coins, assured him that he had not seen it. Then, the rich man began beating him up so badly that he finally killed him. He searched through his clothes and found nothing. He left feeling very sad.

The ascetic was watching the incident sitting inside the hollow and was astounded. He felt very sad and began to cry feeling sorry for the unjust death of the poor man and prayed to God:
-Lord, what is the meaning of this will of yours? Let me know how your kindness can tolerate such an incident. Someone lost the coins, another man found them and a third man was unjustly murdered!

As he was praying and crying, an angel of the Lord appeared and told him:
-Do not feel sorry for the poor man, nor think that this incident is not the will of God. Bear in mind that some things occur, either because God permits them to, or in order to instruct people or because He causes them to happen for our benefit.
Now, listen: The man who lost the golden coins is the next door neighbour of the one who found them. He owned a farm worth one hundred coins. The rich man, who was an avaricious person, forced him to sell his farm to him for only fifty golden coins. The poor man, feeling helpless, prayed to God to punish his unjust neighbour on his behalf. And God rewarded him in double. The second man, the tired and poor one, who was unjustly killed, had once committed a murder. He had honestly repented and lived the rest of his life according to God’s will. He constantly prayed to God to forgive him and said to Him: “God, let me have the same kind of death as the one I gave.” Of course, our Lord had forgiven him since the first time he expressed his repentance for his sinful act. However, He was moved by the sensitivity and righteousness of this man, who not only tried to live according to His will, but also wished to pay back for his sinful act. So, God fulfilled his wish and gave him the chance to experience a violent death, -as he himself had asked for- and took him to heaven by His side, granting him a glorious laurel for his deep and responsive repentance!
http://www.pigizois.net/agglika/paisios/paisios6.jpgThe third man, the avaricious one, who lost the golden coins and committed the murder, had fallen in two sins, avarice and stinginess. God permitted a violent murder to be committed, so that he may experience pain, which in turn, would lead him to repentance. The sin of murder turned out to be the cause for his decision to leave the world and become a monk.
So, where and under what circumstances do you see that God was unjust, merciless and cruel? You should not examine God’s judgments, as He always makes them correctly and according to the way He knows, whereas you misjudge them and find them unjust. You should also know that many things happen with God’s will for reasons we do not know. Therefore, the right thing for us to say is: “Righteous art thou, O Lord, and right art thy judgments” (Ps 118:137).

[MsDahl]

I don't understand what you are trying to explain to me, Mythedeos. Are you saying God condones evil? My understanding about murder is that God has granted us free will and it is due to this free will that evil acts are committed. However, I always understood that God hurts deeply when He sees His creation committing such evil deeds and it is because of His love for us in giving us this free will that he does not interfere with our will.

[Protoevangel]

I don't understand what you are trying to explain to me, Mythedeos. Are you saying God condones evil? My understanding about murder is that God has granted us free will and it is due to this free will that evil acts are committed. However, I always understood that God hurts deeply when He sees His creation committing such evil deeds and it is because of His love for us in giving us this free will that he does not interfere with our will.
Perhaps I am wrong, but what I see in the story is this: Nothing happens that God does not allow to happen. Even when we use our free will to choose evil, in the end, we will see that all of history is an elaborate tapestry illustrating God's perfect plan and infinite love and mercy (see Genesis 50:20). We will eventually see that every evil act was futile and vain. This does not mean that God condones any evil act, but simply that nothing we can do can outsmart God or derail His plans.

[Lukaris]

Fr Paisios story is truly revealing in receiving a glimpse of the overall purpose of almighty God and how difficult it can be to grasp. The murder aspect of it reminds me of an incident 2 years ago when one of our elderly parishoners was murdered in a home invasion by a junkie from out of town. The murderer drifted from one "rehab charity" to another, could fake being "saved", admitted he was not good, even felt empathy for his victim (& her family), but would still do his "thing" unless incarcerated. He seemed apathetic & not bitter when arrested and yet tried hard to evade capture. I believe the elderly lady is praying for this criminal in paradise & we must too (it ain't easy often). Out of this, I believe free will is evident since we must forgive, the criminal here must repent, & the elderly lady who remained an Orthodox Christian (by free will to her salvation). "Good and bad, life and death, poverty and wealth - These are from the Lord. The gift of the Lord remains with the godly, and His approval brings prosperity forever." (Sirach 11:14-15). Lord have mercy.

[Mytheodos]

I don't understand what you are trying to explain to me, Mythedeos. Are you saying God condones evil? My understanding about murder is that God has granted us free will and it is due to this free will that evil acts are committed. However, I always understood that God hurts deeply when He sees His creation committing such evil deeds and it is because of His love for us in giving us this free will that he does not interfere with our will.

What i'm trying to say is that its difficult to understand the will of God.

I think that God intervenes with our free will just like a mother intervenes when her child is ill.
The child refuses to take the bitter medicine,but the mother forces the child to take the medicine for its own good.
God does the same thing.
He gives us an illness or allows us to commit a grave sin to feel pain,repent and turn our hearts back to God.

Here's something i found on...

Natural Will And Will of Choice

St.John of Damaskos distinguishes between natural and will of choice.
A person has the will of choice when he is characterised by ignorance of something,by doubt,and finally by the inability to choose.
He is wavering about what to do.
A person has natural will when he is led in a natural way,without vacillation,without ignorance,to put the truth into action.
It seems,then ,that the natural will is connected with"willing",while the will of choice is a matter of"how to will",especially when there are doubts and waverings.
It follows then that natural will is the perfection of nature,while the will of choice is the imperfection of nature,since it presupposes someone who has no knowledge of truth,who is not sure about what he ought to decide.

Although Christ had two wills because He had two natures,human and divine,he had a natural will in the sense that we mean here,and certainly he did not have a will of choice.
As God He always knew the will of God the Father,and there was never any doubt or wavering in Him.
This is also experienced in the saints by grace,especially in the Theotokos.
Since the Theotokos had attained deification,it was impossible for her to reject the will of God and not consent to the incarnation.
She had perfect freedom,and therefore her freedom always acted in accordance with nature and not against it.
Since we have not reached deification,we have incomplete freedom,with the so-called will of choice,and therefore we waver about what is to be done.


So i think that God intervenes (correct me if i'm wrong) cause we lack this natural will,true freedom.

[Kristos]

Mytheodos - do you have a reference for that? I would like to read more. Thanks!

[Philothei]

To me free will is discribed very well in the parable of the prodigal son. God as the patient Father gives "choices" to his sons... One is faithful and "sticks" with him. The other decides to go away and he rebels against his Father. He ends up hurt... and realizes his mistake he comes back to his father who is at the door waiting for him ...

This is what happens with us and God.. We have free will but we are called constantly by God to do the right thing ....Sometimes we do sometimes we do not.. God is always there...He is in the look out for us. He does "seek us out"... He does it in all instances in our life...He is active towards us He is not passive... but ultimately we have to "accept" that calling and move forward and "concent" to him... We meet him half way that why the Fathers call that "synergy" between us and God.
Also about the miracles I think that they are God's guideposts. There are all around us but we fail to see them. For example a birth is a mystery and a miracle... Doctors say that there are so many things that could go wrong with a pregnacy that it is a true miracle that takes place... My gynecologist (who was a catholic) she mentioned that to us in our first visit when I was pregnant... So when it comes to Pharao I think that those who are "disbelievers" or "unbelievers", in his case the latter, their heart is hardened because they do not acknowedge God in anything... They deny the miracles, good reasoning and rely in their own ego and opinions... about God. Some they come to "hate" God long before they "deny" Him... A lot of times people who deny God, in Pharao's case, do not engage even in a discussion to "let" themselves be challenged with the possibility of God's existance... So, all miracles do for these people is to make them more hateful against God .... and as their ego gets more challenged they feel more hate and pride and their hearts are hardened.....

My two cents in it...
Hope it made some sense...

Also St. Maximos the Confessor talks about free will as Ireneus...

Here":
http://www.ellopos.com/study/default.asp?h=http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/christou_maxim.html
This site got some interesting material also... about Greek language etc.
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/greek-word.asp


Thus, the Fathers declare that God exists, that man has a soul. He is free to choose, and not even the Grace of God is compulsory. As St. Justin Martyr writes in his first Apology, 43,
So that none may infer what we have said about the events we have described. ..the
penalties and punishments, and the good rewards are given according to each man's
action. If this not so, but all things happened in accordance with fate, nothing would be
left us. For if it is destined that one man should be good and another wicked, then
neither is the one to be praised, nor the other blamed.
St. Irenaeus concurs:
This expression of our Lord, "How often would I have gathered thy children together,
and thou wouldest not, (Matthew 23:37) II , set forth the ancient law of human liberty,
because God made man a free agent from the beginning, possessing his own power,
even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests of God voluntarily, and not by
compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will towards us is
present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. In man,
as well as the angels, He has placed the power of choice...so that those who had yielded
obedience might rightly possess the good, given indeed by God, but preserved by
themselves. On, the other hand, they who have not obeyed, shall, with justice, be not
found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment : for God did
kindly bestow on them what was good;... (Against the Heresies, IV, 37, I).





Also :



The cooperation between God's Grace and man's free will, the Church calls "synergy" or acting together of two energies, human and Divine. What God freely gives, we are free to accept or reject. At the same times, there are some things God will not give us nor will He let us know about them. For, as the Apostle Paul has written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him (1 Cor. 2:9).


http://orthodoxyinfo.org/AzkoulFreeWill.htm


And also this":

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/freewill_death.aspx

[MsDahl]

Philothei, thanks that was put quite simply. Perfect for this simple woman :-)

Mytheodos, I think I am understanding your point a bit better. Although I have never believed that sickness was sent by God to us, so I am still slightly confused. You stated that "He gives us an illness." This isn't what I have come to understand about sickness and God from an Orthodox perspective. St. Maximus the Confessor said, "Suffering cleanses the soul infected with the filth of sensual pleasure and detaches it completely from material things by showing it the penalty incurred as a result of its affection for them. This is why God in His justice allows the devil to afflict men with torments." I have never heard it from the perspective that God gives us illness. In regards to your analogy, the medicine is to heal the child, so it is very understandable why a mother would force it upon the child and I understand how sickness can be healing for a person and why God would allow it in one's life, which is different than believing that God has sent it to a person.

[Mytheodos]

Mytheodos - do you have a reference for that? I would like to read more. Thanks!

Sorry Kristos,there is no online source that i'm aware of.
I copied it from this book...

The Feasts of the Lord:
An Introduction to the Twelve Feasts and Orthodox Christology
by Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos of Nafpaktos
http://www.archangelsbooks.com/prodimages/Large/Books/BTMVLACHO-10.jpg
I got my copy from Archangelsbooks.com
:)