Attention all Jews and Gentiles on this forum!

[FaithfulWife]

Could we PUH LEZE call a cease fire to all this? Please pause just one moment and notice one thing. We were all conversing fairly civilly and respectfully until there was a hurtful thing said in the prison thread, which lead to saying a hurtful thing back.

Dear Jewish posters--I may not be able to speak for all Messianic people when I say that we don't hate you but please look at the people on this forum. People who have asked you good questions in earnest. People who have learned about Judaism and Torah in a respectful way. I include in this group ERM, anivista, myself to just name a few. I just do not think it is conducive to peace to come on here, amongst people who have spoken and behaved generally in a gently, respectful way and start slinging what you know is going to be hurtful! Are there some individuals who consistently start this kind of reaction? Or who consistently do not speak gently or respectfully? YES! Then speak and react to THAT INDIVIDUAL not lumping us all together into a Jew-hating, evangelizing, torturing, heartless group. Come on.

Dear Messianic posters--this is where the rubber meets the road friends. For a long time Jews have been treated poorly and that's the truth. They have a legitimate reason to be wary but let me ask to raise to the challenge. Just because one individual godes them and they respond snarky DOES NOT MEAN WE HAVE TO. Please do me one favor and before you hit the submit button just ask yourself "could I get away with saying this about a black man or a disabled person without sounding hateful and prejudice? ...then why am I saying that about someone who is my friend?" I'm not talking about being PC here (Politically Correct) I'm talking about not falling for and doing exactly what we are accused of doing. Anivista, ERM, and everyone...we've been here a bit and we can tell when a button was pushed and that he was like applying a hot poker in the pokey spot. We need to DEMONSTRATE through our restraint that there really are some christian who are not like the stereotype! We can say it all day, but we need to ACT it!

Sooooo...everyone please stop. Please dear Jewish friends whom we love--stop before you make the next "dead Jew" comment to people who have really actually treated you with respect. And please dear Messianic friends whom we also love--stop before you reply to their comment with a comment of your own. Stop the spiral. You can choose to not engage in the argument and say, 'When you make a comment like that, I feel really hurt as if all my actions of kindness count for nothing, I think it's really unfair to come on a forum for my religion and rip on me, and so I'm going to ask you to please stop and remember that I am your friend."

Meet hate with love.



~Faithful

[Talmidah]

Dear Jewish posters--I may not be able to speak for all Messianic people when I say that we don't hate you but please look at the people on this forum. People who have asked you good questions in earnest. People who have learned about Judaism and Torah in a respectful way. I include in this group ERM, anivista, myself to just name a few.

Most of us have no problem with answering questions and engaging respectful posters....there just aren't many left around these parts any more.

Oh and of the people you noted, at least one of them has stated that none of the Jewish people here have a Jewish soul, and said to a Jewish poster that he doesn't have Jewish blood. So there goes the respect and earnestness, huh? :wave:

[FaithfulWife]

... at least one of them has stated that none of the Jewish people here have a Jewish people, and said to a Jewish poster that he doesn't have Jewish blood. So there goes the respect and earnestness, huh? :wave:


:confused: Uhhh... :scratch:

I suspect you meant something like, "...that none of the Jewish people on here are Jewish people, and that one Jewish poster doesn't have Jewish blood...." Something to that effect anyway.

Tal you know what, you could just as easily level that statement against me because I do not have a Jewish mother or father. My bloodline is not Jewish. But here's what I'm saying. If you were to say that to me Talmidah I have to admit I would be hurt, but I would consider YOU. You are a smart, thorough, godly, generally loving peaceful person...so for you to make such a comment I would say "HOLY SMOKE! What caused that!" or at least realize that it was out of character and consider that something hateful and hurtful must have been said.

At some point someone has to be willing to say, "You volleyed one at me and now I'm going to lay down my weapon rather than shot back at you." I'm willing to do that. I'm willing to say that the first comment was over the top and not just inappropriate but very hurtful and meant with the intention to stir up the fighting! But I'm not willing to shoot at you anymore.

Okay? I'm laying this down and I'm asking every single other person to either lay down their weapon or if one or two refuse to realize that it's not "the community as a whole" but one or two people. See the difference? Not all Jews hate ME--but I'm sure there are some who do. I'm also equally sure there are some who don't. Let's be the example and volunteer to stop. I'm stopping now. I'm going to ask each person in our group here who loves each other to stop.

[Talmidah]

Sooooo...everyone please stop. Please dear Jewish friends whom we love--stop before you make the next "dead Jew" comment to people who have really actually treated you with respect. And please dear Messianic friends whom we also love--stop before you reply to their comment with a comment of your own. Stop the spiral. You can choose to not engage in the argument and say, 'When you make a comment like that, I feel really hurt as if all my actions of kindness count for nothing, I think it's really unfair to come on a forum for my religion and rip on me, and so I'm going to ask you to please stop and remember that I am your friend."

Meet hate with love.



~Faithful

Why do we have to be friends? Why can't we simply be people who post on an Internet forum with other people, with whom we disagree about virtually everything? We don't need to be all lovey-dovey best friends. We can respect each other because we're all human beings, but that is really the extent of it.

Somebody else stated it much better than I ever could:



Because we asked you to???????
Please come and tear down our faith and call our Redeemer a "dead Jew".
That dead Jew quote was from one of your faithful followers.

Chabad is the evangelistic arm of Judaism BTW.
That's how you can convert don't you know.

kivi says: There are significant differences between Christian and Jew. We reject your religion and you reject ours. Hardly the casual conversation of a dinner party. Now what? We can say it politely or rudely, but 'dead jew' is how we feel. Jesus is not the Messiah, so he, like all Jews before him and afer him, is just another 'dead jew'.

You can say it politely or rudely but when you say

They have Jewish blood running thru their veins. Do you?

that is how you feel. I don't try to deny how you feel, even thought it is an insult so deep in my soul as to be unspeakable on my part.

So, by the very statement of our spiritual postions we insult each other.
Now what? I don't plan to go any where. I plan to stay here. I plan to defend Judaism. So, why am I here and not in a Jewish site, defending Judaism. Because this is were the Christians are. Because the difference between Judaism and Christianity is not their theology or their practices, as such. There are a lot of religions that Judaism doesn't agree with. So what?!? They leave us alone and we'll leave them alone. See any Jewish defenders on Shinto sites???? I don't think you'll find any. Why? Because we don't see any Shinto Missionaries on Jewish sites.

But on Jewish sites, you have to wade through the Christian Missionaries. Southern Baptists, J4Js, Messianics, all sorts of Missionaries. All trying to convert Jews to Christianity of whatever flavor. So, myself and some other Jews who have some skills and information come here to talk with Christians about the problem and explain Judaism in such a way that it is not treated as an illegitimate spiritual path. That's all we want. We don't want Christianity to stop being Christianity, we don't want to covert any Christians. We just want Chirstianity to leave us alone as we want to leave you alone. You will notice that we don't say much about Catholics. The reason is simple. They have stopped the evangelic game directed at us.

Maybe all of this is a waste of time, a waste of time. I hope not. Its my deal, and I'll do the best I know with it. I think that if Christianity really has the truth about Judaism, the average Christian will see Judaism for what it is, a legitimate spiritual path rather than a path that needs to be destroyed. And if I can convince one Christian of that, I have been over paid for my work.

So, we'lll start here about correcting mis-conceptions about Judaism. Sorry, but you just don't now much about CHABAD. They have a strong outtreach to non-observant Jews. But they no more believe that coverting non-Jews to Judaism is right than any other Jewish organization. In fact, amoungst the Jews, CHABAD is the most stringent/difficult [like impossible] to gain conversion through.

[FaithfulWife]

We don't have to be friends Talmidah. In fact, I could see how you and I could completely disagree. But I think there is a difference between me looking at you as a valuable member of a community, giving you the chance to respectfully state your views and reasons etc. and then you giving me the same courtesy and we walk away....Versus degenerating into name calling, flaming, baiting and meanness.

I guess if you hate me you hate me and that's your right.

[ShirChadash]

of course, most of us did think we are friends... until the last couple of months I guess, and the last several hundred posts that have gone under the bridge. OVER and over and over and over. It gets hard to ignore, I'm sorry. And oh yes, you messianics can cry that *I* have done all of this or that or the other, but I ask you , where have I been nasty? Where? Where have I said that messianics are not Jews? Where have I fouled genuine Chris*ianity? And I have been reported and reported and reported mainly for staff nonsense of course, but seriously, many of you make nasty comments about Jews left and right and mainly the Jewish posters shut UP about it, or respond very mildly so as not to ruffle feathers, all to no avail because the posts remain and sit there hurting people. And yet, your messianic mod can get away with it, have her revoked threads returned to hurt and cause further division, while those of us who have made it a practice to challenge such things whenever we see them, we get reported, and our posts removed, and we get banned. All because you see, we who have always otherwise been peacable here are suddenly the troublemakers? Really??? No all because the atmosphere has changed, the messianic posters who were respectful or rabbinic Judaism and kind to rabbinic Jews have almost all (yes I said almost, some of you are the same old kind and loving individuals) left and let the forums here be overrun with Jew-replacers, rabbinic Jew-haters.

And yes, it hurts. And yes, it is sad. But do you REALLY think we should sit back and let you (some of you) make the comments you do, unchallenged? REALLY????

[Talmidah]

I don't hate anyone here. I dislike some people here, but don't wish them any ill-will. However, we are all adults. We recognize that we disagree on almost every issue. If a messianic wants to say that they are a Jew because they are 'grafted in', they have a right to do so, and we have a right to say, that according to Judaism, they are not. If they want to keep bringing up the fact that some members have converted to Judaism, we can bring up the fact that Jewish law does not allow this distinction to be made. If we state that according to Judaism, some guy who died 2000 years ago is some guy who died 2000 years ago, why not accept it for what it is....the Jewish POV.

My feeling is if you are going to allow Jews to post here, allow them to be honest. If you want everything sugar-coated in fake niceties, what's the point?

Again, in the Messianic Judaism (http://christianforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=34) forum, we are not allowed to post. If all the Messianics would spend their time over there in fellowship and like-minded discussion, honestly there would be very little going on over here in Messianic Way and everything would be calm and peaceful for them over there. But it appears that some people seem to enjoy this open exchange over here, well until they call for posts to get deleted and stuff, but I guess that's beside the point.

[Talmidah]

And yes, it hurts. And yes, it is sad. But do you REALLY think we should sit back and let you (some of you) make the comments you do, unchallenged? REALLY????

This is very true. I grieved when I realized that this forum was no longer the same place I had grown and made friends at. It took me so long to see it. It hurt a lot. I've had to accept it though. It is a very different place, as much as I wish it weren't. :(

[christianmomof3]

i have a cat and a dog.
we got the cat first.
we got her at the pound as a kitten and have raised her all of her life and fed her and cared for her.
and she is mean - my husband says she is "playful". she bites people.


the dog is a golden retriever.
we got her at the pound as a puppy.
she loves everyone and would not hurt a flea.
she wants to be friends with the cat.
the cat does not want to be her friend.
the dog does not wish to harm the cat.
she just wants to play with her.
the cat wants nothing to do with the dog.
sometimes they peacefully coexist - as long as the dog does not try to mess with the cat.
when the dog gets too close the cat hisses at her.

the dog is 5 years old now and the cat is around 8.
they are still not friends.
i don't think they ever will be.
sometimes life is like that.

[ShirChadash]

woof.

[anisavta]

Thank you Faithful Wife for trying to level the ground and put it all in perspective.
I will join with you dear sister.

[FaithfulWife]

... And oh yes, you messianics can cry that *I* have done all of this or that or the other, but I ask you , where have I been nasty? Where? Where have I said that messianics are not Jews? Where have I fouled genuine Chris*ianity?
To my knowledge and memory you have not, and so thus as I said--even if you were to respond to me in a somewhat snarky tone, I would consider YOU and that you are not normally that kind of person and something seriously hurtful must have been said that would cause you to respond like that.

And I have been reported and reported and reported mainly for staff nonsense of course, but seriously, many of you make nasty comments about Jews left and right and mainly the Jewish posters shut UP about it, or respond very mildly so as not to ruffle feathers, all to no avail because the posts remain and sit there hurting people. So I see that you at least understand the concept I'm talking about and have practiced it (namely responding mildly). I am sorry you have been reported and reported and reported but consider again that some people are trigger happy with the report button. And for some reason people could see the hurt and prejudice if they spoke that way about a black person but disabled person, but they don't see it when they themselves say such a thing about another religion or denomination. My personal reaction is to take a breath, take a moment to think of my response, and yet point out the thing that was hurtful in a factual point of way and give the chance for apology or explanation or something.

And yet, your messianic mod can get away with it, have her revoked threads returned to hurt and cause further division, while those of us who have made it a practice to challenge such things whenever we see them, we get reported, and our posts removed, and we get banned. Honestly, I had a similar situation with a couple individuals on another forum and because they were not mods I was able to put them on Ignore. I realize you can't put a mod on Ignore, but wouldn't the rationale be similar? If you stop feeding someone who's baiting, doesn't it eventually at least minimize? My thought here is that it's reasonable to respond/reply to those who have won your trust. It's equally reasonable to not even bother to open the threads and comments of those how have not won your trust. This saves YOU from the heartache of having to see or read the baiting type comments and allows you to continue on your way in peace.

All because you see, we who have always otherwise been peaceable here are suddenly the troublemakers? Really??? No all because the atmosphere has changed, the messianic posters who were respectful ofabbinic Judaism and kind to rabbinic Jews have almost all (yes I said almost, some of you are the same old kind and loving individuals) left and let the forums here be overrun with Jew-replacers, rabbinic Jew-haters. May I just point out to you one thing? See all the underlined statements. Those are your statements about me...and SC I know that you and I have no quarrel and yet I'm sure you could see how those statements would in no way be acceptable if the equivalent were leveled against "Jews" in general. But these names and hurtful things were leveled against the people I might worship with, and thus I'm included. See how that works? I in no way really think that you think some of those names about me, but by replying in the manner that you did, I'm included. So you make general statements about a whole, entire group/religion, I feel sad that in your mind I'm included in there, I think that it's not really what you intended or at least that it's not your typical character, and so I'd like to ask that you would at least consider editing of your own accord or consider the possibility that these type of statements would bring pain. In other words, I am also asking YOU to do what I am doing myself. See a hurtful statement, not knee-jerk respond, and don't send another hurtful statement back.

And yes, it hurts. And yes, it is sad. But do you REALLY think we should sit back and let you (some of you) make the comments you do, unchallenged? REALLY???? No I don't think comments should go unchallenged, but I do think that a) the way to respond is not to send back similar hurtful statements (in which case they go back and forth and it keeps spiraling to more and more and more hateful) and b) as Messianic Way is the home forum of rabbinic Jews, that you go ahead and take the lead in keeping your forum in the manner in which you see fit, but that you also have SOME trust in the Messianics to at least deal with our own who are making statements that are intolerable. On the other forum that I had trouble with, we learned a way to deal with those who where doing the baiting/trolling but it was our community who stood together rather than letting the statements tear us apart.

So SC what do you decide to do? Want to continue the war here? You can do that if you want but I still choose to NOT shoot at you and not level one back because I respect ya too much and because I want to demonstrate the very behavior that I would hope for from others.


~Faithful

[FaithfulWife]

I don't hate anyone here. I dislike some people here, but don't wish them any ill-will. However, we are all adults. We recognize that we disagree on almost every issue. If a messianic wants to say that they are a Jew because they are 'grafted in', they have a right to do so, and we have a right to say, that according to Judaism, they are not. If they want to keep bringing up the fact that some members have converted to Judaism, we can bring up the fact that Jewish law does not allow this distinction to be made. If we state that according to Judaism, some guy who died 2000 years ago is some guy who died 2000 years ago, why not accept it for what it is....the Jewish POV.

My feeling is if you are going to allow Jews to post here, allow them to be honest. If you want everything sugar-coated in fake niceties, what's the point?

Again, in the Messianic Judaism (http://christianforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=34) forum, we are not allowed to post. If all the Messianics would spend their time over there in fellowship and like-minded discussion, honestly there would be very little going on over here in Messianic Way and everything would be calm and peaceful for them over there. But it appears that some people seem to enjoy this open exchange over here, well until they call for posts to get deleted and stuff, but I guess that's beside the point.

You bring up some excellent points, Talmidah! This is a bit like coming to your house, asking you what you think about something, and then when you answer truthfully being mad about your answer. Well we asked! Plus it's your house and why should you have to sugar-coat in your own house.

I'll tell you why.

If a person is a guest in your home, let's say a traveling business person or student, and they were to ask you a question, you wouldn't start out your answer with an insult like "Well the < insult> business (blah blah blah)..." or "Well the stupid college students (yak yak yak)...." When a person is a guest, even if you think they are all wrong and they are completely off their rocker, you put on your guest towels and at the very least bite your tongue a bit because they are a guest. Some guests are disgusting, let's be honest. Some guests make you angry, in which case it is reasonable to respond appropriately and request changes. But it does happen occasionally that a guest will unwittingly say something inappropriate--so you don't pounce back you tell them like a guest. If you tell them and they continue, they may need to be asked to leave but that still doesn't mean you join the slugfest. And eventually you may even have to remove yourself from the situation or call in the authorities! See what I mean?

Speaking only for myself here I do enjoy coming here and speaking to you'all, not for the name calling and being told what a horrid person I am but for learning about another person and for learning about Torah more and more. I can go other places, and maybe that would be the solution here. I'm more like the dog in the post above but eventually even the dog will leave the cat alone, and from what I can tell the cat will never once care that the dog left. If that's how it's got to be it would be sad but cool I can live with that too.


~Faithful

[kivi]

Most of us have no problem with answering questions and engaging respectful posters....there just aren't many left around these parts any more.

Oh and of the people you noted, at least one of them has stated that none of the Jewish people here have a Jewish soul, and said to a Jewish poster that he doesn't have Jewish blood. So there goes the respect and earnestness, huh? :wave:

kivi says: Since I was the one who was 'dissed' for being a convert and not having Jewish 'blood', let me be the 1st to forgive. I will hold it as it never happened, I will forget the person who said it and I will never bring it up again. And I ask nothing in reply.

[FaithfulWife]

Thank you kivi! I am so grateful that you made the first step with me and joined the stand to just stop this. As the "injured party" so to speak, you have the right and I appreciate your courage.

Will anyone join us in agreeing to stop this?

[ContraMundum]

I think once you get to know people better around here it's harder to get offended, even when they say annoying things. Just take it with a grain of salt, and try to enjoy your time here.

[Lotuspetal_uk]

I think once you get to know people better around here it's harder to get offended, even when they say annoying things. Just take it with a grain of salt, and try to enjoy your time here.

Amen, and this is the crux.

I feel as though I personally know those contributors to the forum who have been around here a while. I may not post often but I've always been one to read, to learn, to log off and rescue the cats from my little one. For me, when I first became a CF member (and when the forum was VERY different to now :) ) I was a SAHM stationed away from home. But times do change, we just need to work harder to get the environment that we want.

One builds up a respect for what posters has to say without losing the fact that this is still an internet forum.

Faith, but :hug: 's to you for starting this thread - may we strive for dialogue and restraint with each other.

[FaithfulWife]

I have given this a lot of thought all day today, and from all that I can see and observe it seems that there are those here who do not WANT to stop fighting and actually enjoy it! That stirring the pot so you can "blame the other guy" spew inaccuracies and hurtful statements about each other is what you enjoy or at least get something out of. Make no mistake, baiting each other by making hurtful statements is not "debate." Debate is a formal contest of argumentation in which two opposing teams defend and attack a given proposition using the course of logic. What is being done here is just attack in the guise of "debate."

So here is my decision. There are a few people here whom I love and respect and I hope you may know who you are. There are a few people here with whom I may disagree but who are really learned and "know their stuff" and whom I find a challenge. But there are a few who I think just get their jollies out of making hateful statements about "the other guys"--and there are a few of those on each side. Yes, this forum has become an "us" versus "them" scenario because that is how you choose to allow your forum home to be. I don't care for that kind of treatment and I consider it on the verge of verbal abuse.

So my decision is to abide by your wish to continue to behave like this. Have at it and have fun. I will not be participating in that kind of behavior because it is not me. And I would like to personally thank Ani and kivi for at least having the courage to examine themselves and make the attempt to stick out an olive branch.

[christianmomof3]

Mt 6:33 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=33) But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Thank you for trying to make peace here.
The only peace is in Christ.
He is the one reality of all.
There are people who visit this forum simply to argue.
There are others who come seeking a variety of things.
And some come to share the Lord and His love with others.
I don't think many people change their beliefs based on what they read on a message board.
But, it can be an interesting place to learn about the large variety of Christian and other viewpoints.
I have really learned a lot from this message board.
And the things I have learned have not necessarily been what I thought I would learn.
Some have been quite suprising and have changed my understandings about some of the different religious groups and their views.
I also pray for the members of the board as the Lord leads me to.
And sometimes, some people here have prayed for me.
It is nice to know that we can be connected to others in the Lord in that way.
Some people who post on this board lie about who and what they are and some are most likely very mentally unstable.
That is just what the world is like and what you will find on a message board.
All we can do is pray as we post and try to express Christ. :prayer: