Schmemann and Modernity in Orthodoxy

[JustinHesychast]

I've recently somehow popped upon a couple of things. Now, I admittedly have an aversion to New Skete. What they do does not seem to line up quite right with Orthodox monasticism. Plus they have church icons of non-canonized saints. Like this one of "Protopresbyter Alexander Schmemann":
http://profile.ak.facebook.com/object3/860/2/l19008188173_5654.jpg
Anyways, my priest, who has facebook, joined a group fan page for Protopresbyter Alexander Schmemann. So I checked it out. A few comments I found:

"while Fr. Schmemann is awesome, im pretty sure that icon is from New Skete -- thuuuumbs down"

followed by "New Skete is the best thing that is happening in the Orthodox Church today. We need intellectual, sane, and down to earth monastics rather than the foaming at the mouth fundamentalist types we've had before in the USA (I'm thinking of Seraphim Rose for example here). There is no reason to bash New Skete. They are trying to bring an authenticially twenty-first century American witness of Orthodoxy rather than transplanted Russian folk fundamentalist theology."

This comment really disturbed me. You can be 21st Century American without going over the line. I dunno. I just don't quite like New Skete. Especially the description of Fr. Seraphim Rose creeped me out (though he did have some weird tollhouse theories he vehemently believed in).

Anyways, which then led me to this website: http://www.schmemann.org/

This whole thing leads me to several questions. How far can modernity be pushed in Orthodoxy? Why have an icon of there is no saint? Can I have an icon of my great grandpa? Can I pray to my great grandpa? Didn't Scmemann have some radical ideas and teachings, especially in regards to modern monastics? Should Orthodox monks have a television show? And other modern-ish questions and whatnot.

Discuss and enlighten me.

Please and thanks.

[Protoevangel]

I'll just comment on one thing. To the best of my knowledge, it is not forbidden to have an Icon of someone who is not yet canonized. The person must be Orthodox, and the Icon cannot show the subject with a halo, and I think there are other rules, but I don't remember. For instance, I have an icon of Fr. Seraphim Rose. Foaming mouth and all. ;)

http://www.geocities.com/dmheadx/images/blessedseraphim_rocor_l.jpg

[Andrew21091]

I've seen many icons of people who aren't Saints yet. I've seen many of Fr. Seraphim Rose as Proto posted and I've seen icons of various elders from Mt. Athos that are painted there. Heck, I have an icon in my icon corner of Elder Joseph the Hesychast, Fr. Ephraim of Katounakia, Elder Porphyrios, and Elder Paisios and they even have halos but they have not officially been canonized as Saints but I believe that they all are and they will be soon. The icon I have in my avatar is of Elder Paisios.

Here is the icon I have:

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/9596/1nc10xs6.jpg

[Matrona]

New Skete kind of creeps me out, too. If I'm going to a monastery in New York state, I'm going to Jordanville.

[Barky]

rofl

I like the dual posting between here and desert calling, along with the same response from proto

[rusmeister]

I think there has to be a reason for (point behind) canonization, though. If we get into making icons of people who WE think ought to be saints, we are trying to determine a truth of God for ourselves - something not so different from Sola Scriptura mentality. I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong, and certainly not that such people are NOT saints, but that it seems much wiser to wait for the revelation of the Church - for the simple reason that icons are windows to heaven that we are to venerate. (Never mind that it is God who knows who His saints are.)

Canonization, as far as I see it, tells me that it is right and proper to venerate this icon. Without it, I don't know if I should. The problems in our faith always arise from applying our opinions as the Truth, rather than asking the Church what the Truth is.

[jckstraw72]

"while Fr. Schmemann is awesome, im pretty sure that icon is from New Skete -- thuuuumbs down"

haha that was me.

i would encourage anyone who thinks Fr. Seraphim was a crazy fundamentalist to read Letters from Fr. Seraphim which is a collection of letters he wrote to Fr. Alexey Young -- it shows he was absolutely sober and on the middle path in everything. as for tollhouses, well he defends it quite well. they rear their heads in many Church services and prayers too.

New Skete kind of creeps me out, too. If I'm going to a monastery in New York state, I'm going to Jordanville.

check out Holy Myrrhbearers in Otego sometime too. They run a farm and are working hard at becoming completely self-sufficient. I was just there on Saturday -- theyre pretty awesome.

[JustinHesychast]

OT, I love Holy Myrrhbearers Monastery! For some reason I have always been drawn to them, and receive all their newsletters and quarterly publishings.

Pretty fun that I quoted you randomly from Facebook, jckstraw. xDDD

[jckstraw72]

as i see it, hte problem isnt with having icons of non-canonized Orthodox people, but that they have icons of people like Pope Paul VI.

as i understand it, it is the veneration of unofficial Saints that leads to them becoming official. So if we don't venerate them, they never will be official.

[jckstraw72]

Pretty fun that I quoted you randomly from Facebook, jckstraw. xDDD

aaaaaaaaaah now you know who i am and everything about me!!!!!!

[JustinHesychast]

as i see it, hte problem isnt with having icons of non-canonized Orthodox people, but that they have icons of people like Pope Paul VI.

as i understand it, it is the veneration of unofficial Saints that leads to them becoming official. So if we don't venerate them, they never will be official.

Ya, that. Plus, that's how I always thought saints became saints in the first place, too.

aaaaaaaaaah now you know who i am and everything about me!!!!!!

*proceeds to be a creepy stalker* :P

[jckstraw72]

*proceeds to be a creepy stalker* :P

i have many photo albums of churches and monasteries you'd prolly like.

[Protoevangel]

I think there has to be a reason for (point behind) canonization, though. If we get into making icons of people who WE think ought to be saints, we are trying to determine a truth of God for ourselves - something not so different from Sola Scriptura mentality. I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong, and certainly not that such people are NOT saints, but that it seems much wiser to wait for the revelation of the Church - for the simple reason that icons are windows to heaven that we are to venerate. (Never mind that it is God who knows who His saints are.)

Canonization, as far as I see it, tells me that it is right and proper to venerate this icon. Without it, I don't know if I should. The problems in our faith always arise from applying our opinions as the Truth, rather than asking the Church what the Truth is.
From what I understand (and I admit it is not much), canonization is not a top-down process. It begins with you and me and the guy down the road who venerates a Saint, paints icons of the Saint, and writes and shares the life of the Saint with others.

I pray to Father Seraphim of Platina nightly, and venerate his Icon often. Of course, I do so with the approval of my Priest... But I would have no problem doing the same with Father Alexander (Schmemann).

[rusmeister]

From what I understand (and I admit it is not much), canonization is not a top-down process. It begins with you and me and the guy down the road who venerates a Saint, paints icons of the Saint, and writes and shares the life of the Saint with others.

I pray to Father Seraphim of Platina nightly, and venerate his Icon often. Of course, I do so with the approval of my Priest... But I would have no problem doing the same with Father Alexander (Schmemann).

This could be correct, and I'll admit I'm not a big "know-it-all" either. It just seems to me that on a matter like this, something is not quite right about believers as individuals deciding who is a saint. Not sure how to put it best, but there's something about the individual deciding what is true vs accepting what the Church tells us is true. In your case, you have your priest's blessing, so I would not gainsay that. I'm just speaking in general.

[Kreikkalainen]

When Fr Paisios wrote the biography of his own spiritual father - St Arsenios the Cappadocian - he was careful to call the book "Father Arsenios the Cappadocian", because there was no official canonisation yet. In later editions, after official canonisation, he changed the title to "Saint Arsenios the Cappadocian".

Based on that, I am not sure that he is very happy with his own icon being painted with halo and all at this stage. Then again, I am not his designated representative :D.

[gzt]

Unofficial veneration - including the creation of icons without halos - is actually one of the things used as evidence that somebody might be a saint. It is not contrary to the will of the church to make icons - without halos, of course - of people believed to be saints, because that is the sort of activity that the church actually uses as evidence that they may be saints! One case in point is St John of Chicago. The fact that there were non-haloed icons of him was used as part of the case for his sainthood.

[Kreikkalainen]

Also, regarding people that our conscience suggests they have found rest in Christ but haven't been sufficiently glorified by humans yet, the usual advice I've repeatedly been exposed to, is that we can ask for their intercessions in our private prayer, so long as we append a little conditional clause to our prayer. So while I would say "St Peter, Leader of the Apostles, pray to God for us", in the "unofficial" case I would say "Fr Paisios, if you have boldness in front of God, pray for us". Or something similar depending on translation :).

[Mary of Bethany]

My priest has told me what Kreikkaleinen just said, so I would say it's okay.

We have this icon in our nave: :thumbsup:

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/9596/1nc10xs6.jpg

[rusmeister]

Sounds good to me.

[Monica, child of God]

Popular veneration is definitely one of the first steps to glorification by the church. Matushka Olga of Alaska is receiving this sort of attention in our own day and age. Perhaps she will be glorified some day.

As for icons of people not yet glorified in church, my former parish commissioned an icon of the New Martyrs of Russia that included the Royal family and others even though they had not been officially recognized as saints by the Church. The halos were left off.

The point of icons is that they make people present with us. They help us reach outside of time and space to connect with people who are not dead but in a different state of being. I have a picture of Father George Calciu that I placed in a double frame. In the other frame I put a packet of dirt from his grave in Romania. As soon as I did it, I noticed a difference in myself and in the room. I can better remember and remain aware that he is praying for me and with me like he did before his repose.

M.

[Lotar]

The real question is why do the ultra-pomos herald Fr. A.S. as their own? And why do they cling to, and deduce from, his liturgical work, which was based on intellectual assumtions and methods that were en vogue at the time but have since been disproven (such as the idea that there was a singular originating liturgy)?

[jckstraw72]

what is ultra-pomos?

[-Kyriaki-]

ultra post modern i *think*

[ArmyMatt]

St Nektarios Monastery in Roscoe NY is a pretty good one too. it's one of Elder Ephraims, and it has icons with Elder Joseph the Hesychast on it, including a sweet icon of Elder Joseph and St Nekatrios upholding the Church in Greece in their trapeza.

[Mary of Bethany]

Wasn't Elder Joseph Elder Ephraim's spiritual father?

Mary

edit: According to http://orthodoxwiki.org/Ephraim_of_Philotheou he was.

[jckstraw72]

most assuredly he was.

[Andrew21091]

Wasn't Elder Joseph Elder Ephraim's spiritual father?

Mary

edit: According to http://orthodoxwiki.org/Ephraim_of_Philotheou he was.

Yes, Elder Ephraim was in Elder Joseph's botherhood at New Skete (not the monastery in New York but the skete on Mt. Athos)


http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/7748/synodiauq5.jpg

This is a photo of Elder Joseph's brotherhood. Elder Ephraim is second from the left.

[ArmyMatt]

the one third from the left is Elder Arsenios the cave dweller, Elder Joseph's co struggler and the one who took over just after Elder Joseph's repose. Elder Arsenios' nephew, Elder Haralambos is on the far right.