Major Fact About WOF! [Archive]

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Optimax

28th July 2008, 03:04 PM

GrapeGirl

28th July 2008, 04:32 PM

It just seems that the very self-reliance and self-confidence that you say WOF demands be given up is the very thing that boasts forth most prominently from WOF posts.

Optimax

28th July 2008, 04:44 PM

It just seems that the very self-reliance and self-confidence that you say WOF demands be given up is the very thing that boasts forth most prominently from WOF posts.

Many do perceive that to be true.

Consider though that the confidence is not in ourselves but in God and His Word.

That strong confidence is an assurance,taken by some to be confidence in self.

Faithful Love

28th July 2008, 05:42 PM

Many do perceive that to be true.

Consider though that the confidence is not in ourselves but in God and His Word.

That strong confidence is an assurance,taken by some to be confidence in self.

Yes, many make assumptions that the confidence is in self, when it is only the freedom that comes from confidence in HIM! :bow:

This kinda of in-Him confidence can be very threatening to some, sadly; it causes them to lash out and accuse those who have that confidence of being in pride.

JimfromOhio

28th July 2008, 06:19 PM

Well, there is an issue of "Positive Confession" doctrine (emphasis on the special position and authority) tying to the blessings that majority of Christians do not really focus on even though they are mentioned in the Bible. The general idea in Word of Faith teaching is that God's will is for every Christian to be gloriously healthy and wealthy or any other blessings.

Word of Faith teaching did not originate with theologians or scholars (hence, Victoryword often referred seminaries are cemetaries.) Word of Faith preachers will often quote promises in a rapid-fire fashion from all over Scripture, and tend to discourage any systematic interpretation of the text.

Mainstream charismatics (non-Pentecostals) acknowledge that God does not always heal or provide whatever a believer asks. On the contrary, sometimes He leads His people through great difficulties and may glorify Himself through their weaknesses. The charismatics emphasize that the purpose of spiritual gifts is to build up the church and enrich worship of God, not to gratify the individual.

My main concern is that the most disturbing is that through television (i.e. TBN), the Word of Faith is the version of Christianity that the American viewer most readily sees. Why is one of the major reasons why I speak up. Christianity is being viewed differently in the last 30 years because of TV ministries. (Note: Not all TV ministries are bad, i.e., Jack Hayford, Charles Stanley, Jeremiah David and others.

I want other believers should be aware of who these teachers are and the danger they represent, both inside the church and without.

~RENEE~

28th July 2008, 06:23 PM

I want other believers should be aware of who these teachers are and the danger they represent, both inside the church and without.
Oh yes there is such a horrible danger in just taking God at His word. You are so right. It is horrible. Believing that God is a man of His word. So dangerous to Satan.

TheBloodOfJesus

28th July 2008, 06:28 PM

Oh yes there is such a horrible danger in just taking God at His word. You are so right. It is horrible. Believing that God is a man of His word. So dangerous to Satan.
That is correct. The real believer should listen to that "voice" that superceeds and replaces the word of God. It does not matter what God says. What is important is what you feel and what your "discernment" says.
Who needs Jesus, the gospel, the word.... all that matters is that crucial and all important "discrenment."
Rich... really rich.

probinson

28th July 2008, 08:43 PM

The general idea in Word of Faith teaching is that God's will is for every Christian to be gloriously healthy and wealthy or any other blessings.
No, it's not. You're wrong. Absolutely, stone cold, dead wrong.

But I don't suspect you'll stop propagating this lie anytime soon.

:cool:

GrapeGirl

28th July 2008, 08:59 PM

No, it's not. You're wrong. Absolutely, stone cold, dead wrong.

But I don't suspect you'll stop propagating this lie anytime soon.

:cool:

This is the presumption that I have been trained to believe and see in WOF. So if this, indeed is a lie, then what is the truth?

Jimbeaux

28th July 2008, 09:05 PM

probinson

28th July 2008, 09:09 PM

This is the presumption that I have been trained to believe and see in WOF. So if this, indeed is a lie, then what is the truth?
I can tell you what I believe.

I come from a background of 3 decades in the same WoF church. So while I may not necessarily exemplify the "average" WoF believer, I know what I believe, and I have seen many people come through our doors in 30 years. I've seen a lot of variation, so I can only tell you what I believe personally, and what my experience has been with my pastor, and other pastors that I have listened to.

I believe you are asking sincerely, so, what do you want to know?

TheBloodOfJesus

28th July 2008, 09:13 PM

This is the presumption that I have been trained to believe and see in WOF. So if this, indeed is a lie, then what is the truth?
It is true that many disreputiable fellows have hitched their carts to the WoF message. The go along with a few of what some call the "feel good" aspects of the message (and yes there are some wonderful things about Christianity that we all should rejoice in and be ever thankful for!) all the while not making any real effort to seach the deeper things. So in a way they are much like the heresy hunters. They like the good things but have never really taken the time and effort to learn the greater and most important messages that WoF teaches. Things like righteousness, fellowship, believing God, and growing up into Him.
Unfortunately you never or very rarely hear these things. The heresy hunters are either so ignorant themselves of the suibject that they cannot address it, or they are so obsessed with the excess of a few hat they gladly toss out the baby with the bath water. But these are dishonest and insincere fellows and just as bad as those who bilk the poor for their last Social Security dollar. They have no sense of what is fair, what is honest, or what is true. They are just out for the fleshy lust of the fight, the exposing, the controversy, and the blood. They have no concern for the souls or the welfare of their fellow Christians, and only seek to cause division and strive to fulfill their own lust and pride.

Jimbeaux

28th July 2008, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by JimfromOhio http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=48004046#post48004046)
The general idea in Word of Faith teaching is that God's will is for every Christian to be gloriously healthy and wealthy or any other blessings.

No, it's not. You're wrong. Absolutely, stone cold, dead wrong.

But I don't suspect you'll stop propagating this lie anytime soon.

:cool:

Absolutely, stone cold, dead wrong, you say?

I think Kenneth Copeland is a bonafide Word of Faith preacher, probably even more bonafide than you, Pete, and here is what he says:
"The first step to spiritual maturity is to realize your position before God. You are a child of God and a joint-heir with Jesus. Consequently, you are entitled to all the rights and privileges in the kingdom of God, and one of their rights is health and healing." (Kenneth Copeland writes in Healed … to Be or Not to Be, p. 25)

“You must realize that it is God’s will for you to prosper.” (Kenneth Copeland, Laws of Prosperity, p. 51).
Maybe you need to brush up on your WOF doctrine a bit, Pete. Or maybe, as I would like to believe, you are not really WOF after all—at least not as WOF as Kenneth Copeland.

~Jim

The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.

probinson

28th July 2008, 09:23 PM

[/indent]
I think Kenneth Copeland is a bonafide Word of Faith preacher, probably even more bonafide than you, Pete, and here is what he says:
"The first step to spiritual maturity is to realize your position before God. You are a child of God and a joint-heir with Jesus. Consequently, you are entitled to all the rights and privileges in the kingdom of God, and one of their rights is health and healing." (Kenneth Copeland writes in Healed … to Be or Not to Be, p. 25)

“You must realize that it is God’s will for you to prosper.” (Kenneth Copeland, Laws of Prosperity, p. 51).
Maybe you need to brush up on your WOF doctrine a bit, Pete. Or maybe, as I would like to believe, you are not really WOF after all—at least not as WOF as Kenneth Copeland.

Oh, well, 2 sentences out of 30 years certainly show a "focus" on health and wealth... http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h128/petesarah/Smilies/rolleyes.gif

Since we're theorizing, maybe you never really learned WoF doctrine during your 10-year stay in the movement, and completely missed the point. ;)

GrapeGirl

28th July 2008, 09:24 PM

I can tell you what I believe.

I come from a background of 3 decades in the same WoF church. So while I may not necessarily exemplify the "average" WoF believer, I know what I believe, and I have seen many people come through our doors in 30 years. I've seen a lot of variation, so I can only tell you what I believe personally, and what my experience has been with my pastor, and other pastors that I have listened to.

I believe you are asking sincerely, so, what do you want to know?

Well, I'll just start with the post that I was responding to. How do you explain the seeming obsession with money and healing theologies among WOF? I could think a lot of different things about this. I understand that Jesus talked about money and being good stewards, but all I seem to hear about from WOF members and teachers is about sowing seeds. I thought that the parable about seed sowing was in reference to souls or other material goods rather than specifically money? Is this incorrect?

How do you explain why people aren't healed or rich or even able to function at a healthy level in some cases? I don't know if I buy the "they didn't have enough faith" because if it was really dependant upon Jesus on the cross, then it wouldn't have anything to do with my faith as to whether or not I was healed. And if i was praying for someone else and they arent healed, whose faith failed then? Is that dependent upon our faith or Jesus on the cross? It's all just so confusing. I'll stop there for now. You can pm me to discuss this if you want.

JimfromOhio

28th July 2008, 09:29 PM

We have to remember how Word of Faith got started. They may have made their "feel good" doctrines more milder by re-redirecting doctrines after facing negative comments from the general Christian followers. The founders (or fathers) of Word of Faith have started but in over time, to handle critics, they change their Statement of Faith and keep their main focus in private.

Jimbeaux

28th July 2008, 09:31 PM

Oh, well, 2 sentences out of 30 years certainly show a "focus" on health and wealth... http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h128/petesarah/Smilies/rolleyes.gif

Since we're theorizing, maybe you never really learned WoF doctrine during your 10-year stay in the movement, and completely missed the point. ;)

Of course I did. That’s why I am no longer WOF.

But apparently, Pete, while you claim to be WOF you seem to pick and choose only the WOF classic WOF doctrines you like. I’m beginning to believe you (and maybe your church) are more of WOF sympathizer than a real WOFers.

And that is a relief to me.

~Jim
The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.

probinson

28th July 2008, 09:55 PM

Well, I'll just start with the post that I was responding to. How do you explain the seeming obsession with money and healing theologies among WOF?
Let me start by asking, where are you seeing this seeming "obsession"?

If you'll check the thread index of the debate forum, you'll see that the bulk of these discussions are not started by WoF adherents, but almost all of the threads are started by those who feel it is their God-given duty to tear down anything that remotely resembles WoF. The only reason that it gets discussed so much here at CF is because WoF detractors are CONSTANTLY bringing it up.

Now, I will agree with you that SOME WoF ministries have disproportionate teachings with money, but most do not. I don't watch a lot of TBN or God TV or Daystar, but I can tell you that the programs that I have seen generally do not make their focus money. For example; Jesse Duplantis has a half hour program. Usually, there is a brief 30-second "commercial" for one of his books or CD's about half-way through, and then typically he takes 2 minutes or so at the end to ask viewers if they enjoy his ministry to prayerfully consider a donation. So we're talking about 2.5 minutes out of a full half hour, where there is any appeal for money. Compare that to your average TV show, which typically is 16 minutes long with a full 14 minutes of commercials, trying to get your money.

But again, there are those ministries that will ask you to "vow" your money away, and seem only EVER to talk about money. It is unfortunate that those programs exist, and most WoF believers will tell you that is not what WoF is about. It's just some joker who is trying to take advantage of people.
I could think a lot of different things about this. I understand that Jesus talked about money and being good stewards, but all I seem to hear about from WOF members and teachers is about sowing seeds. I thought that the parable about seed sowing was in reference to souls or other material goods rather than specifically money? Is this incorrect?
Actually, the parable about sowing seeds is about sowing the Word. However, sowing and reaping is a Biblical principle that even the world understands. Ever heard people say, "What goes around, comes around"?

If you sow generously, you will reap generously. WoF teaches that this applies to anything. If you sow Love, you will reap Love. If you sow hate, you will reap hate. If you sow money, you will reap money. If you sow accusation, you will reap accusation.

I believe that this is a Biblical principle, that while it can be applied to money, has much more to do with than just money. It has to do with doing unto others as you'd have them do unto you. It has to do with showing yourself friendly if you want to have friends. It has to do with SO much more than just money, and WoF teaches this.
How do you explain why people aren't healed or rich or even able to function at a healthy level in some cases? I don't know if I buy the "they didn't have enough faith" because if it was really dependant upon Jesus on the cross, then it wouldn't have anything to do with my faith as to whether or not I was healed. And if i was praying for someone else and they arent healed, whose faith failed then? Is that dependent upon our faith or Jesus on the cross? It's all just so confusing. I'll stop there for now. You can pm me to discuss this if you want.

I don't know.

Is it possible they lacked faith? Sure it is. That seems a taboo thing for some people to even consider, but Jesus said it a lot. "Oh ye of little faith".

But I don't judge. I've never told someone that the reason that they weren't healed was because they lacked faith. Short of God giving me a word of knowledge, I would never presume to tell someone that.

I don't have all the answers. I never claimed to have all the answers. But where WoF tends to part ways with others is that even though NONE of us has all the answers, we don't ascribe to God someone's sickness or disease.

There are those that want you to believe that God puts sickness on you to "discipline" you, but I don't buy that. You want to really confuse someone, tell them God put cancer on their friend to teach them a lesson...

The difference, I think is, even though I don't understand everything and/or have all the answers, I still choose to believe that God is a good God. Having been disciplined by my Father more than a few times in my life, I can attest that He has never inflicted me with disease. No good Father would do that to their child.

The other viewpoint is to just say that if something doesn't happen right when I thought it should, then it must not have been God's will. However, look at the woman who asked Jesus to heal her daughter, and Jesus called her a dog! Had she just said, "Oh well, it must not be God's will to heal my daughter" and not persisted and showed what Jesus called "great faith", then her daughter would not have been healed.

I could go on and on (and on and on), and I will if you would like me to clarify anything I've said, but I really don't have all the answers. However, I choose to believe that the very clear and unambiguous words of Jesus meant what they say, even if I don't quite "get it".

An eye-opening thread as to how Jesus responded to sickness can be found in this thread I posted a few years ago, simply titled, "Jesus Heals";

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=2919779

This is scripture after scripture after scripture about how Jesus healed people, sometimes in response to their faith, sometimes in response to the faith of their friends or family, sometimes just because.

That's enough rambling for now. If you have any questions about what I posted, or if you'd like me to clarify anything I've said, just say the word.

Thank you for taking the time to listen to me, and what I believe.

probinson

28th July 2008, 09:59 PM

Of course I did. That’s why I am no longer WOF.

Of course. :P

But apparently, Pete, while you claim to be WOF you seem to pick and choose only the WOF classic WOF doctrines you like. I’m beginning to believe you (and maybe your church) are more of WOF sympathizer than a real WOFers.

And that is a relief to me.

I doubt that. My church is a RHEMA affiliate, and has been for years. My pastor graduated from RBTC in the early 80's.

That doesn't mean that there aren't things that we may question from time to time, or perhaps we believe SOME churches have taken to extremes (as is the case in every denomination), but we're pretty bona-fide WoF people.

:cool:

GrapeGirl

28th July 2008, 10:36 PM

My responses are in purple text.
Originally Posted by GrapeGirl http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=48005851#post48005851)
Well, I'll just start with the post that I was responding to. How do you explain the seeming obsession with money and healing theologies among WOF? Let me start by asking, where are you seeing this seeming "obsession"?

I see this seeming obsession on tv, and in the real world. I used to live about 5 miles from World Harvest Church. And I have discovered that a lot of my favorite southern gospel artists also are WOF and this is mostly the stuff I hear coming out of their mouths is about money and healing as well. It could very well be the circle of my interests that is the problem with me being so saturated with these seeming obsessions. Also, it is very prominent in chat rooms – which, me being a geek, am a fan of for recreational purposes. I try really hard not to conform to any doctrines I find in forums or chat rooms, but it has raised a curiosity in me to really find out what the beliefs are.

If you'll check the thread index of the debate forum, you'll see that the bulk of these discussions are not started by WoF adherents, but almost all of the threads are started by those who feel it is their God-given duty to tear down anything that remotely resembles WoF. The only reason that it gets discussed so much here at CF is because WoF detractors are CONSTANTLY bringing it up.

Now, I will agree with you that SOME WoF ministries have disproportionate teachings with money, but most do not. I don't watch a lot of TBN or God TV or Daystar, but I can tell you that the programs that I have seen generally do not make their focus money. For example; Jesse Duplantis has a half hour program. Usually, there is a brief 30-second "commercial" for one of his books or CD's about half-way through, and then typically he takes 2 minutes or so at the end to ask viewers if they enjoy his ministry to prayerfully consider a donation. So we're talking about 2.5 minutes out of a full half hour, where there is any appeal for money. Compare that to your average TV show, which typically is 16 minutes long with a full 14 minutes of commercials, trying to get your money.

But again, there are those ministries that will ask you to "vow" your money away, and seem only EVER to talk about money. It is unfortunate that those programs exist, and most WoF believers will tell you that is not what WoF is about. It's just some joker who is trying to take advantage of people.

Like I said above, it could just be my circle of interests that allows me to hear so much WoF stuff... I know of like Rod Parsley, and Mike Murdock, and The Crabb Family... people like that who are very strong in this stuff.

Originally Posted by GrapeGirl http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=48005851#post48005851)
I could think a lot of different things about this. I understand that Jesus talked about money and being good stewards, but all I seem to hear about from WOF members and teachers is about sowing seeds. I thought that the parable about seed sowing was in reference to souls or other material goods rather than specifically money? Is this incorrect? Actually, the parable about sowing seeds is about sowing the Word. However, sowing and reaping is a Biblical principle that even the world understands. Ever heard people say, "What goes around, comes around"?

If you sow generously, you will reap generously. WoF teaches that this applies to anything. If you sow Love, you will reap Love. If you sow hate, you will reap hate. If you sow money, you will reap money. If you sow accusation, you will reap accusation.

I believe that this is a Biblical principle, that while it can be applied to money, has much more to do with money. It has to do with doing unto others as you'd have them do unto you. It has to do with showing yourself friendly if you want to have friends. It has to do with SO much more than just money, and WoF teaches this.

Oddly enough, I have never heard it applied to anything but money and healing. Why is this the main focus of WoF? Is that kinda like “well this is the best gig we got so let's pitch it to the world” kind of thing? I don't understand the pre-eminence of this teaching on money and healing from the WoF group. But what you said is helpful...I'll be pondering this for a while and trying to see what I think about it.

Originally Posted by GrapeGirl http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=48005851#post48005851)
How do you explain why people aren't healed or rich or even able to function at a healthy level in some cases? I don't know if I buy the "they didn't have enough faith" because if it was really dependent upon Jesus on the cross, then it wouldn't have anything to do with my faith as to whether or not I was healed. And if i was praying for someone else and they aren't healed, whose faith failed then? Is that dependent upon our faith or Jesus on the cross? It's all just so confusing. I'll stop there for now. You can pm me to discuss this if you want. I don't know.
This is the best answer I have ever heard.

Is it possible they lacked faith? Sure it is. That seems a taboo thing for some people to even consider, but Jesus said it a lot. "Oh ye of little faith".

He may have said “oh ye of little faith” but as far as I know, and I'm used to being wrong, that never stopped Him or hindered Him from healing anyone in any way.

But I don't judge. I've never told someone that the reason that they weren't healed was because they lacked faith. Short of God giving me a word of knowledge, I would never presume to tell someone that.

I don't have all the answers. I never claimed to have all the answers. But where WoF tends to part ways with others is that even though NONE of us has all the answers, we don't ascribe to God someone's sickness or disease.
Is this where you get the “don't acknowledge it” thing??? Cause the cult that I was part of taught me a lot to “speak over myself” and it never worked. If I was sick, I was supposed to deny it. If I was poor, I was supposed to believe that I was rich and even though I didn't see it materialize. Now please don't think that just because I've had negative experience that I'm trying to prove your beliefs wrong with my experience. I'm not. I think you have discerned that, Pete. I just want to gain some wisdom and understanding and knowledge. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you saying “we don't ascribe to God someone's sickness or disease”.

There are those that want you to believe that God puts sickness on you to "discipline" you, but I don't buy that. You want to really confuse someone, tell them God put cancer on their friend to teach them a lesson...
I have actually been told that. I don't buy it generally for others, but when it comes to my own health problems I sometimes wonder.

The difference, I think is, even though I don't understand everything and/or have all the answers, I still choose to believe that God is a good God. Having been disciplined by my Father more than a few times in my life, I can attest that He has never inflicted me with disease. No good Father would do that to their child.
Okay so we both believe that we don't have all the answers and that God is good.

The other viewpoint is to just say that if something doesn't happen right when I thought it should, then it must not have been God's will. However, look at the woman who asked Jesus to heal her daughter, and Jesus called her a dog! Had she just said, "Oh well, it must not be God's will to heal my daughter" and not persisted and showed what Jesus called "great faith", then her daughter would not have been healed.
So does that go to say that God will change His mind concerning whether or not to hear us depending on our persistence or lack there of in petitioning Him for our healing? If that is true, then why are people still not healed after years of praying for healing? For instance...I have horrible scarring all up and down both of my arms from self-mutilation. It has hindered me from getting jobs, and being in social groups, and a lot of other stuff. I have prayed for God to heal my scars and He never has. So in that case, my persistence did not pay off. So that would mean that it wasn't God's will right??

I could go on and on (and on and on), and I will if you would like me to clarify anything I've said, but I really don't have all the answers. However, I choose to believe that the very clear and unambiguous words of Jesus meant what they say, even if I don't quite "get it".

An eye-opening thread as to how Jesus responded to sickness can be found in this thread I posted a few years ago, simply titled, "Jesus Heals";

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=2919779

This is scripture after scripture after scripture about how Jesus healed people, sometimes in response to their faith, sometimes in response to the faith of their friends or family, sometimes just because.

That's enough rambling for now. If you have any questions about what I posted, or if you'd like me to clarify anything I've said, just say the word.

Thank you for taking the time to listen to me, and what I believe.

I appreciate you sharing what you believe with me. I will check out that thread. I know that I got a bunch of books on healing to read and study so I can get the goods on this. Or at least some answers. So thank you. This discussion is good.

rcorley

28th July 2008, 10:44 PM

It's an interesting thing. I've spent over 15 years in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement. I've seen my share of those taking advantage of Jesus' name and causing rifts and dissension in the Body. I've heard teachings that made my skin crawl. I've heard preachers give sermons that from a Biblical viewpoint made me cringe. I've walked out of sermons that I didn't agree with. They were putting forth teaching that had no relevance to the Scriptures they claimed backed them up. So believe me - I tend to be VERY cautious of televangelists and ministers claiming God's automatic blessing if a certain number of people send in a specific amount of money.

But - what all of that said - I've listened closely to the things the Copelands teach, that Keith Moore teaches - and I've got to say that I'm not hearing anything that falls outside of the truth of the Word. Believe me, I've looked. I've scrutinized. I understand that maybe in the beginning of the WOF movement, there were some potential shady people involved, but I believe that (as with any living thing) it has matured and grown into something solid. The Copelands, Joyce Meyer, Creflo Dollar - what I hear from them is teaching that "Love is the greatest commandment", "Sow Into Others", "Be Forgiving".

When I do hear messages concerning money, it is always coming from a base of "God blesses you...so that you can in turn bless others." Honestly, what is wrong with that? If God gives me $10 Million dollars and tells me to give away $9 million, does it make me a bad person that I now have $1 million? At what point does being rich become a sin? I'd much rather be in a position that I could bless someone by paying their house payment and prevent a foreclosure than in a posistion of "Gee...I wish I could help but I'm barely making it myself." Copeland teaching - "I'm blessed to be a blessing." Seriously - correct me if I'm wrong - but what is wrong with that? It's not about me and what I have. It's about being a blessing to those around me. Money is a tool. It doesn't help to not have tools in your toolbox.

As far as healing goes, I agree that healing is available to believers. I believe that we fall under the blessings of the covenant given in Deut. 28 and I believe that Jesus saved us from the curses. I believe that the Bible in repleat with healing and that we are to be agents of the Holy Spirit to bring healing to this world. And let's not forget, the Pentecostal/Charismatic movements all historically involved healings.

As to why some are not healed, I don't know and don't make judgments on it. It's not for me to pray for someone, see them not get healed, and say, "Oh well...bad luck for you." It's my responsibility to press MORE into prayer for that person; to fight for them; to see what could be hindering those prayers; to understand that if the Holy Spirit has moved upon me to pray for their healing, I just can't give up if my 3 minute prayer didn't work.

So...all that coming from a 10 year member of a Biblically-solid Foursquare church (under which Jack Hayford is the President of our denomination). Believe me - if I heard anything that raised my "fake televangelist" monitor, I would be one of the first to point it out.

From what I've seen and heard, these churches/ministers are only preaching what the Bible teaches. That because of the sacrificial death and resurrection of Jesus, we are now given the opportunity to act in conjuction with the Holy Spirit to walk in the authority God intended for man in the first place. We are to act as ambassadors for Jesus in this world in such a way as to advance His Kingdom and His purposes.

probinson

28th July 2008, 10:46 PM

GG, I'm about to head off to bed, but I'll respond to your post tomorrow.

Nighty-night!

rcorley

28th July 2008, 11:24 PM

He may have said “oh ye of little faith” but as far as I know, and I'm used to being wrong, that never stopped Him or hindered Him from healing anyone in any way.

Though it mentions that Jesus did healings in Nazareth, Mark 6:4-6 seems to indicate that He was hindered from doing "mighty works" due to unbelief:v. 4 But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his own country, among his own relatives, and in his own house. v. 5 Now He could do no mighty work there, except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. v.6 And He marveled because of their unbelief. Then He went about the villages in a circuit, teaching."
Is this where you get the “don't acknowledge it” thing??? Cause the cult that I was part of taught me a lot to “speak over myself” and it never worked. If I was sick, I was supposed to deny it. If I was poor, I was supposed to believe that I was rich and even though I didn't see it materialize...Maybe I'm misunderstanding you saying “we don't ascribe to God someone's sickness or disease”.

Not speaking for Pete, but this type of teaching would be absurd. If I have a cold, I don't pretend that the cold doesn't exist while I hack a lung up. But I do believe that the sickness is in legal violation of the covenant that I have with God through Jesus, and I call upon the name Jehovah Rapha (the God that Heals) and tell my body to line up with the Word of God that states sickness is a curse and I have been redeemed from the curse through Jesus. It's not a "demanding that God heal me"; it's telling my body to line up with the work of the Holy Spirit in my life. If I happen to keep coughing, I keep telling the sickness that it is out-of-line and to get out. It really doesn't have to be weird. It's meant to be a supernatural response to a natural circumstance.

But I do agree with Pete that God in NO way causes me to get sick to teach me a lesson. That would be like correcting my son's bad behavior by injecting him with an AIDs contaminated needle instead of just having him go to the corner.

Luke 11:11 & 13v.11 "If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish?
v.13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"

So does that go to say that God will change His mind concerning whether or not to hear us depending on our persistence or lack there of in petitioning Him for our healing? If that is true, then why are people still not healed after years of praying for healing? For instance...I have horrible scarring all up and down both of my arms from self-mutilation. It has hindered me from getting jobs, and being in social groups, and a lot of other stuff. I have prayed for God to heal my scars and He never has. So in that case, my persistence did not pay off. So that would mean that it wasn't God's will right??

I don't pretend to know the reasons why people aren't healed. I don't try to ascribe blame to either the person or God. I just continue in prayer and seek wisdom. I am so sorry that you are scarred from your past. I don't claim to know everything, but I do know that God does love you and I am so glad that you are my sister in Christ. Peace to you.

Jimbeaux

29th July 2008, 03:18 AM

*****

But I do agree with Pete that God in NO way causes me to get sick to teach me a lesson. That would be like correcting my son's bad behavior by injecting him with an AIDs contaminated needle instead of just having him go to the corner.

Luke 11:11 & 13
v.11 "If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish?
v.13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"

I don't pretend to know the reasons why people aren't healed. I don't try to ascribe blame to either the person or God. I just continue in prayer and seek wisdom. I am so sorry that you are scarred from your past. I don't claim to know everything, but I do know that God does love you and I am so glad that you are my sister in Christ. Peace to you.

So, what were all those sicknesses in the OT that God Himself inflicted on the children Israel (God’s children, BTW) all about if it wasn’t to “teach them a lesson?”

And here’s a couple of NT passages that says that God may be behind an illness (also called an infirmity in the NT (http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=infirm&version1=50&searchtype=all&bookset=2)).
27 So anyone who eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord unworthily is guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 That is why you should examine yourself before eating the bread and drinking the cup. 29 For if you eat the bread or drink the cup without honoring the body of Christ, you are eating and drinking God’s judgment upon yourself. 30 That is why many of you are weak and sick and some have even died. 31 But if we would examine ourselves, we would not be judged by God in this way. (1 Cor 11)
And don’t forget that prickly thorn in the flesh (clearly identified as an “infirmity” four times by Paul for anyone who can see it):

30 If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity . . .

1 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. 6 For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me.
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. (1 Cor. 11, 12)

I agree, though, God cannot teach/discipline/chasten you through an illness if you will not be taught because you let a doctrine of men get in the way.

~Jim

The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.

CryoftheNation

29th July 2008, 05:04 AM

And don’t forget that prickly thorn in the flesh (clearly identified as an “infirmity” four times by Paul for anyone who can see it):[/font]30 If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity . . .
1 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. 6 For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me.
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. (1 Cor. 11, 12)
I agree, though, God cannot teach/discipline/chasten you through an illness if you will not be taught because you let a doctrine of men get in the way.

~Jim

The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.

Ok, now look at the context of this. Paul is clearly talking about weakness here not sickness. Infirmity here is used, not to describe illness but to describe a weakness, maybe of character, maybe of strength. No where in this does he talk about sickness.

God bless

Simon

Jimbeaux

29th July 2008, 05:30 AM

Ok, now look at the context of this. Paul is clearly talking about weakness here not sickness. Infirmity here is used, not to describe illness but to describe a weakness, maybe of character, maybe of strength. No where in this does he talk about sickness.

God bless

Simon

Actually, he is talking about his sickness (infirmities), not weakness. And isn’t physical “weakness,” an illness (it was, after all a thorn “in the flesh”)?

That Paul was troubled by a chronic illness for which he did not receive any recorded healing is clear from Galatians 4.
13 You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first. 14 And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. 15 What then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me. 16 Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?
This was Paul’s thorn in the flesh.

~Jim

The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.

CryoftheNation

29th July 2008, 05:58 AM

FoundInGrace

29th July 2008, 06:09 AM

Why is it so wierd that God would afflict people, it's like putting stumbling stones in the way if someone is going a wrong way so that person has to stop and think about the direction of their life. I could mention several things God's afflicted me with that have been fantastic in terms of bringing me back to God but that doesn't fit with wof from what I understand of it, thats what I find most wierd cos it seems quite a natural part of life. Not saying it's something God likes doing but nor does a natural father enjoy some of the stuff he has to do with his kids to teach them.

I don't want an argument it's lots of Christians in lots of different denominations that don't seem to get how great it is when God cares enough to do the tough love thing .. and yes even using sickness sometimes ..

Lam 3:33
"..for He does not willingly bring affliction on the sons of men"

it's in the Bible that this is what He does sometimes, not willingly cos He loves us but He does bring affliction to us .. we either accept that God does that or reject the word.. that's how I see it anyway.

sorry if off topic just thought i'd rant a little as I'm tired and getting over the flu

Jimbeaux

29th July 2008, 06:11 AM

Balance

29th July 2008, 08:40 AM

Actually, he is talking about his sickness (infirmities), not weakness. And isn’t physical “weakness,” an illness (it was, after all a thorn “in the flesh”)?

That Paul was troubled by a chronic illness for which he did not receive any recorded healing is clear from Galatians 4.13 You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first. 14 And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. 15 What then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me. 16 Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?
This was Paul’s thorn in the flesh.

~Jim

The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.

And as you are very well aware of - there are just as many who do NOT believe Paul's thorn was a sickness at all.

In fact Paul very clearly describes his 'infirmity in 2 Cor 11

2 Cor 11:2 2 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I. 23 Are they ministers of Christ?—I speak as a fool—I am more: in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequently, in deaths often. 24 From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27 in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness— 28 besides the other things, what comes upon me daily: my deep concern for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to stumble, and I do not burn with indignation?
30 If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity.

Notice what Paul did NOT list here? Sickness.

Did Paul have a problem with his eyes in Galatians 4? He sure did - he was just stoned before entering Galatia - I wonder why he had eye issues?

JimfromOhio

29th July 2008, 09:11 AM

No, it's not. You're wrong. Absolutely, stone cold, dead wrong.

But I don't suspect you'll stop propagating this lie anytime soon.

:cool:

Well, let's look at it this way, if you take away those doctrines, most what you have is basic Christianity like the rest of us.

JimfromOhio

29th July 2008, 09:19 AM

I'm sorry, I disagree. The two are not necessarily talking about the same thing at all. The context of the thorn in the flesh does not relate to sickness at all. The whole section is talking about weakness not physical illness. It is talking about a spiritual failing.

Simon
Let's look at the context of the thorns and see if you can really select and choose them.

What does Paul mean when he wrote in 2 Corinthians 12:10 (NIV) "That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong." ?

In KJV: 2 Corinthians 12:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=12&verse=10&version=9&context=verse)
Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Weaknesses (infirmities): (From Strong's Greek #769) of strength, weakness, infirmity, of the body, its native weakness and frailty, feebleness of health or sickness, of the soul , want of strength and capacity requisite 1b, to understand a thing 1b, to do things great and glorious 1b, to restrain corrupt desires 1b, to bear trials and troubles

Insults: (From Strong's Greek #5196) insolence impudence, pride, haughtiness, a wrong springing from insolence, an injury, affront, insult, mental injury and wantonness of its infliction being prominent, injury inflicted by the violence of a tempest

Hardships: (From Strong's Greek #318) necessity, imposed either by the circumstances, or by law of duty regarding to one's advantage, custom, argument, calamity, distress, straits

Persecutions: (From Strong's Greek #1375) persecution

Difficulties: (From Strong's Greek #4730) narrowness of place, a narrow place, metaph. dire calamity, extreme affliction.

If you look at verse 9 leading up to verse 10..... God told Paul "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me."

In Romans 15, Paul explains: "We, then, that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let every one of us please his neighbor for his good to edification [building up]. For even Christ pleased not Himself..." (1-3).

JimfromOhio

29th July 2008, 09:22 AM

And as you are very well aware of - there are just as many who do NOT believe Paul's thorn was a sickness at all.

In fact Paul very clearly describes his 'infirmity in 2 Cor 11

2 Cor 11:2 2 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I. 23 Are they ministers of Christ?—I speak as a fool—I am more: in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequently, in deaths often. 24 From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27 in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness— 28 besides the other things, what comes upon me daily: my deep concern for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to stumble, and I do not burn with indignation?
30 If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity.

Notice what Paul did NOT list here? Sickness.

Did Paul have a problem with his eyes in Galatians 4? He sure did - he was just stoned before entering Galatia - I wonder why he had eye issues?

You are missing the point, later Paul wrote more about "thorns". In an example of Paul's thorn, this is a tough problem for us believers; but if we do not know what it means we may at least know what it does not mean. It does not mean that in refusing to remove the thorn in answer to prayer God became guilty of a breach of promise. Christian spiritual training is this: "Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me,'My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.' Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me". (2 Corinthians 12:8-9). Paul wanted the thorn removed but God wanted to teach Paul that "the sufficiency of His grace" in the worst of human circumstances is that when a person is weak in a temporal sense while the person is strong spiritually by God's Grace in eternal sense.

BenAdam

29th July 2008, 09:40 AM

A major fact about WOF has to do with the faith that seems to upset some.

WOF was established on faith in God, Jesus, The Holy Spirit and The Word.

That is why it is called Word of Faith.

Not "self faith" or "faith in faith", nor "works of faith", etc., as some proclaim.

WOF does not depend on self for anything, but God, Jesus, The Holy Spirit and The Word.

Is not self reliance and self confidence two of the major concerns that those against WOF bring up in their post?

Self reliance and self confidence are two attributes that WOF demands must be given up. When these two are present faith can not operate because faith is dependent upon God. Faith was given to each of us by God. We did not "go out and find our own faith". Can't be done.

God gave us the faith same as He gave us His Word in which he explains how to depend on Him for all that we need.

Would really be wonderful if those of you against WOF could realize this basic fact.

Might provide a view of things from the WOF side of the fence.

Sad thing is there is no "sides of fences" for us as Christians. However we try so hard to establish them.

Consider prayerfully before posting a reply please. :prayer:

Dogma and practice are not always the same. RCC dogma states that they do not worship Mary, yet in practice many do.

Stating your dogma is supported by Jesus does not make it so. Stating WoF demands self reliance and confidence must be given up doesn't jive with the practice that many WoF people are engaged in that I observed and heard taught for over 10 years and continue to observe today.

Painting something blue and calling it green doesn't make it green.

That being said, having a doctrinal disagreement with someone doesn't make them scum. I'm not WoF anymore, neither am I Catholic. Doesn't mean I am right in everything, doesn't make them right or wrong in everything either. Perhaps we are both right, perhaps we are both wrong (something few of any doctrinal stance will be willing to ascent to), most likely perhaps we are all partially right.

Tamara224

29th July 2008, 09:45 AM

It just seems that the very self-reliance and self-confidence that you say WOF demands be given up is the very thing that boasts forth most prominently from WOF posts.

How does that saying go?... If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

If it looks like pride and sounds like pride... guess what it most likely is?

probinson

29th July 2008, 10:10 AM

I see this seeming obsession on tv, and in the real world. I used to live about 5 miles from World Harvest Church. And I have discovered that a lot of my favorite southern gospel artists also are WOF and this is mostly the stuff I hear coming out of their mouths is about money and healing as well. It could very well be the circle of my interests that is the problem with me being so saturated with these seeming obsessions. Also, it is very prominent in chat rooms – which, me being a geek, am a fan of for recreational purposes. I try really hard not to conform to any doctrines I find in forums or chat rooms, but it has raised a curiosity in me to really find out what the beliefs are.

I can't speak to what is on TV, because I don't watch a lot (or really any) of Christian TV.

However, I think one of the main reasons WoF is perceived as having a "focus" on "health and wealth" is because it's reacting to the other extreme side of the coin, which says that God wants us perpetually poor and sick. The truth lies somewhere in the middle of the 2 extremes.

Like I said above, it could just be my circle of interests that allows me to hear so much WoF stuff... I know of like Rod Parsley, and Mike Murdock, and The Crabb Family... people like that who are very strong in this stuff.

When I speak of WoF, I'm not talking about people on TV. I'm talking about my personal experiences with it, seeing it in a practical application, week in and week out, living it, seeing others live it, stuff like that.

About 6 years ago, I visited Rod Parsley's church in Columbus, OH for a "helps" seminar. The evening service was nearly 5 hours long. The next day, since I had chosen the media training, the editors told us that they had to take that 5 hours of service, and edit it down to 25 minutes, and have it still make sense.

My point is, when someone goes only by that which they see on TV, they're missing the big picture, and much of what is taught and said. Granted, other people who have had personal experiences with local WOF churches may tell you something completely different than what I tell you, and their experience is no more or less valid than mine. But just like my experience with WoF does not vindicate the entire movement, neither does someone else's experience condemn the entire movement.

Oddly enough, I have never heard it applied to anything but money and healing. Why is this the main focus of WoF? Is that kinda like “well this is the best gig we got so let's pitch it to the world” kind of thing? I don't understand the pre-eminence of this teaching on money and healing from the WoF group. But what you said is helpful...I'll be pondering this for a while and trying to see what I think about it.

Again, money and healing is not the main focus of WoF, or at least it has not been, in my experience. Yes, we talk about money and healing. These are things that God wants us to understand. But they are not the focus.

I think perhaps the way it appears that way is because many churches have all but completely excluded talking about healing and/or money, any time a WoF believer even mentions it in passing, it's seen as being the "focus". But in reality, that's not the case.

This is the best answer I have ever heard.

It's the best one I can give. I don't know.

But God does. And that's why no "formula" will ever work. If all we had to do was figure out a formula, why would we need God? God wants us to seek Him first, and then all these 'things' shall be added unto you. That's what most of WoF teaches. IOW, relationship with God comes first, then comes the 'things'. Or to put it simply, relationship is the focus, not things.

He may have said “oh ye of little faith” but as far as I know, and I'm used to being wrong, that never stopped Him or hindered Him from healing anyone in any way.

There is only one instance that I can think of, and that was when Jesus was in His hometown. Scripture tells us that He was unable to perform any mighty works because of a lack of faith.

Is this where you get the “don't acknowledge it” thing??? Cause the cult that I was part of taught me a lot to “speak over myself” and it never worked. If I was sick, I was supposed to deny it. If I was poor, I was supposed to believe that I was rich and even though I didn't see it materialize. Now please don't think that just because I've had negative experience that I'm trying to prove your beliefs wrong with my experience. I'm not. I think you have discerned that, Pete. I just want to gain some wisdom and understanding and knowledge. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you saying “we don't ascribe to God someone's sickness or disease”.

By saying I don't ascribe to God someone's sickness or disease, I am saying that I don't believe God is up there zapping people with sickness. If I get sick, it's because I live in a fallen world, not because God has some "greater purpose" for it.

And while it's true that years ago people would tell you not to acknowledge your sickness or poverty, most of WoF will tell you not to deny sickness, but to deny its right to attach itself to you.

The difference that I've seen is that some people will choose to look at what they're going through, while I choose to see where I'm going to. The other difference is, people think that they have to wait until they die, or until "some day" in the "great by-and-by".

It's true that the greatest gift God has ever given us is eternal life through His Son Jesus, but that in no way negates the fact that He cares about you and I, right here, today, on this earth.

We can see this all the way back to when Jesus raised Lazarus. Mary and Martha kept saying, we believe that Lazarus will be raised at the ressurrection, but Jesus was trying to tell them it was for now, not for "some day".

I have actually been told that. I don't buy it generally for others, but when it comes to my own health problems I sometimes wonder.

And that tends to be the problem. All it takes is one seed, one thought of, "maybe God is trying to teach me something with my disease", and then you'll get people condemned, because God is "teaching" them a lesson, but they have no idea what that lesson might be.

God may well be trying to teach you something, but He doesn't need a disease to do it. Now, I believe fully that God works ALL THINGS together for good, so He most certainly can use any situation for our benefit, but I don't believe that it's His perfect will for us.

Okay so we both believe that we don't have all the answers and that God is good.

It would appear so! ;)

So does that go to say that God will change His mind concerning whether or not to hear us depending on our persistence or lack there of in petitioning Him for our healing? If that is true, then why are people still not healed after years of praying for healing? For instance...I have horrible scarring all up and down both of my arms from self-mutilation. It has hindered me from getting jobs, and being in social groups, and a lot of other stuff. I have prayed for God to heal my scars and He never has. So in that case, my persistence did not pay off. So that would mean that it wasn't God's will right??

I don't know.

But when do we decide that our persistence didn't work? After a day? A month? A year? 10 years?

For 15 years, I suffered with allergies. If you could be allergic to it, I was. All through my childhood, doctors told me that I had allergies, and that I would have to deal with them for the rest of my life.

But because of what I had heard, and what I knew about God, this did not sit well with me. I can remember thinking to myself at a very young age, "NO! This is not what God wants for me!" I can remember making a connection to the children of Israel, when the "evil report" was brought back by the spies. And I decided that I was going to beleive God's report, and not the doctor's.

For years, I saw absolutely no indication that I was getting any better. In fact, I got worse. Much worse. I was on multiple allergy meds, and they kept upping the dosage. I couldn't play in the yard for more than 20 minutes in the summer time because the grass and pollen would cause me to have severe allergic reactions. It was bad. But I never gave up on what I believed God had said to me. I held fast to what I believed, regardless of the circumstances.

Then one summer night, when I was 15, I went to bed, nose running, tissues in hand, and fell asleep. The next morning, when I woke up, I had never felt better! I didn't even realize it at first, but I suddenly realized that I wasn't sneezing and sniffling any more! I told my mom that I'd been healed!

So we made a doctor appointment, went through the whole unpleasant gambit of tests, and every single one of the tests came back negative. Just a year earlier, they'd determined that I was still allergic to nearly everything under the sun (and I had the symptoms to prove it), and here I was, not allergic to a thing. The doctor had no explanation. It was an abrupt healing, that I had petitioned God for 10 years about.

I don't know why it took 10 years, but I never gave up hope. I never for one minute even entertained the thought that God had destined me to be afflicted with allergies all my life.

That is my testimony of having done all to stand, standing. My wife has a similar testimony of how God healed her of asthma.

But what if I'd have decided at some point along the way that it wasn't God's will for me to be healed? First of all, I would have been completely wrong in that assumption, because I sit here today typing this completely allergy-free! But would it have turned out any differently? It's hard to say, because of God's amazing grace and mercy, I may well have been healed any way.

I've always said there are basically 2 ways you can get healed. You can sit around and wait, or you can actively participate (which some wrongly call "works").

The 2 best examples of this are the man at the pool, who did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to receive his healing. Jesus just up and healed the guy. Why? Beats me. But the man did nothing of himself to receive his healing.

And then you have the woman with the issue of blood, that fought her way through the "thronging" crowd to touch Jesus. In this instance, Jesus didn't even know WHO had touched Him. She was choosing to act on what she believed, and had she not done that, she likely would not have been healed.

I appreciate you sharing what you believe with me. I will check out that thread. I know that I got a bunch of books on healing to read and study so I can get the goods on this. Or at least some answers. So thank you. This discussion is good.
I agree. This discussion is good.

It occurs to me that I just spent a great deal of time talking about healing ;), but only because I was trying to answer your questions re: healing. So before some smart-alec comes along and says, "Look how much emphasis you just put on healing", it's only because I was responding to the post.

probinson

29th July 2008, 10:14 AM

Tamara224

29th July 2008, 10:22 AM

probinson

29th July 2008, 10:30 AM

7 To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
So... Satan is in the business of keeping people from becoming conceited, is he?
Do you think Satan's intent was to keep Paul from becoming conceited? Of course not, but because of our amazing God, He is able to take the things that Satan means for our harm and turn it for good.

pinetree

29th July 2008, 10:37 AM

I would think that he who inhabits eternity,

Knew along time before Pauls thorn,that He would display his glory through the situation.Grace was the answer,and really what I think Paul was trying to show us.IMHO.

Just like God foreknew He would use 7 evil hostile nations to reveal his Glory in Cannan.

Just like he used Pharaoh too,to display His Glory.

And who can forget our brother Job.Who really was in charge?

So,does God use all things,and shouldn't we presume if we were chosen before the foundations,that surely Pauls thorn was long known about by God too.

JimfromOhio

29th July 2008, 10:40 AM

Paul's thorn was not from God. Scripture tells us that very directly (for those who can see it;
And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me,a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.

The Scripture clearly teaches that not only is it a possibility to be handed over to Satan. There are times and places and circumstances under the plan of God in which individuals are definitely to be turned over to Satan.

Reading Job is one example. God says, "Have you looked at My servant Job? And what a good man he is.

Satan answered the Lord and says, Does Job fear God for nothing? You think he loves You and trusts You and believes in You the way he does for nothing? You think he does that just because it's in his heart to do that? Why, "You made a hedge around him and around his house and around all he has on every side, and You bless the work of his hands, and his substance has increased in the land."

Satan says in on verse, "touch all that he has, he'll curse You to Your face." In other words, take away his stuff and we will know how he loves you and have faith in you. Taking away things is one example of thorns.

And the Lord said to Satan, "Behold all that he has is in your power."

Understanding the phrase, 'Behold all that he has is in your power', God turned Job over to Satan, no question about it. God turned Job over to Satan. That was a divine act by the sovereignty of God. Only upon himself don't put your hand. You can do anything you want to his stuff, but don't touch him.

What's interesting is that other biblical writers refer to Job as a real person. Ezekiel refers to Job along with Noah and Daniel (Ezekiel 14:14,20). And James draws upon the example of Job to comfort the suffering, proving the point that God is merciful. He commends the endurance of Job (Jas. 5:11). From the Book of Job, we see that God is in complete control. Satan had neither the power nor the authority to do anything without the permission of God. It was consistent with God's nature and will for him to have allowed those things to happen to Job.

JimfromOhio

29th July 2008, 10:44 AM

Do you think Satan's intent was to keep Paul from becoming conceited? Of course not, but because of our amazing God, He is able to take the things that Satan means for our harm and turn it for good.
We don't know the source of Paul's thorn but when Paul wrote later, he listed all the thorns and he didn't say which one he was experiencing. In my personal view, reading Corinthians and history of Corinthians, Paul defines this thorn in his flesh, a messenger of Satan (that's another word for a demon, Satan's angel). God gave Paul grace to endure and allow God to handle the situation. Paul just needed to focus on God rather than the problem.

Tamara224

29th July 2008, 11:06 AM

Do you think Satan's intent was to keep Paul from becoming conceited? Of course not, but because of our amazing God, He is able to take the things that Satan means for our harm and turn it for good.

No, I think God's intent was to keep Paul from becoming conceited.

But you're ignoring the plain meaning of the text.

It says "To keep me from becoming conceited..."

The "to" means "in order to"... it tells us the purpose for which the messenger of Satan was given.

It doesn't say "Satan gave me one of his messengers and God turned that around for my good..."

It specifically says that the reason the messenger of Satan was given to Paul was in order to keep him from being conceited.

And it also does not say that Satan is the one who sent (or gave) the messenger. It only says that the messenger belongs to Satan.

And again... we know from other Scripture that God sometimes sends such spirits.

JimfromOhio

29th July 2008, 11:22 AM

No, I think God's intent was to keep Paul from becoming conceited.

But you're ignoring the plain meaning of the text.

It says "To keep me from becoming conceited..."

The "to" means "in order to"... it tells us the purpose for which the messenger of Satan was given.

It doesn't say "Satan gave me one of his messengers and God turned that around for my good..."

It specifically says that the reason the messenger of Satan was given to Paul was in order to keep him from being conceited.

And it also does not say that Satan is the one who sent (or gave) the messenger. It only says that the messenger belongs to Satan.

And again... we know from other Scripture that God sometimes sends such spirits.
Yes, you have a great point there.
2 Corinthians 12:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=12&verse=7&version=31&context=verse)
To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.

Look at other verses Paul wrote:
Romans 11:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&verse=25&version=31&context=verse)
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

Romans 12:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=16&version=31&context=verse)
Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.

Galatians 5:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=5&verse=26&version=31&context=verse)
Let us not become conceited

1 Timothy 3:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=3&verse=6&version=31&context=verse)
He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.

2 Timothy 3:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=3&verse=4&version=31&context=verse)
treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God—

probinson

29th July 2008, 12:27 PM

No, I think God's intent was to keep Paul from becoming conceited.

But you're ignoring the plain meaning of the text.
As are you.

It says "To keep me from becoming conceited..."

The "to" means "in order to"... it tells us the purpose for which the messenger of Satan was given.

It doesn't say "Satan gave me one of his messengers and God turned that around for my good..."
Neither does it say, "God sent me a messenger that was from Satan."

But it does say a messenger of Satan.

It specifically says that the reason the messenger of Satan was given to Paul was in order to keep him from being conceited.

And it also does not say that Satan is the one who sent (or gave) the messenger. It only says that the messenger belongs to Satan.
Nor does it say that God sent the messenger.

And again... we know from other Scripture that God sometimes sends such spirits.
We see one instance in the OT where God sent a lying Spirit, which hardly sets a precedent for God sending "messengers of Satan" to do His work.

Tamara224

29th July 2008, 12:42 PM

As are you.

What am I ignoring?

Neither does it say, "God sent me a messenger that was from Satan."
But it does say a messenger of Satan.

:doh:That's what I already said. A "messenger of Satan". The "of" means "belonging to" in that context.

Nor does it say that God sent the messenger.

I never said it did say that, specifically. I simply said that it doesn't specify who gave the messenger of Satan to Paul.

What is clearly stated, however, by the plain meaning of the words is that the purpose of the messenger was to keep Paul from becoming conceited.

Quit ignoring that fact and answer the question... Why would Satan want to prevent Paul from becoming conceited?

We see one instance in the OT where God sent a lying Spirit, which hardly sets a precedent for God sending "messengers of Satan" to do His work.

Don't forget about Job. :wave:

probinson

29th July 2008, 12:58 PM

I never said it did say that, specifically. I simply said that it doesn't specify who gave the messenger of Satan to Paul.
OK.

What is clearly stated, however, by the plain meaning of the words is that the purpose of the messenger was to keep Paul from becoming conceited.

Quit ignoring that fact and answer the question... Why would Satan want to prevent Paul from becoming conceited?
I'm not ignoring a thing. Satan's intent was not to prevent Paul from becoming conceited. It was to "buffet" him.

At the risk of being accused of using my "preferred translation", The NLT says it this way;even though I have received such wonderful revelations from God. So to keep me from becoming proud, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger from Satan to torment me and keep me from becoming proud.
But this is somewhat of a gnat strain, since the words of and from can be used interchangeably (except when trying to prove a doctrinal point, apparently. ;))

What was the purpose of the death and resurrection of Jesus? Why would Satan want to take any part in something that would result in the salvation of the world?

Your position begins with the wrong assumption that Satan foreknew how his buffeting would affect Paul, or what God had intended it for. Was Satan sitting around going, "Gee, I think I'll buffet Paul so that he doesn't become conceited"? Of course not. But what he intended to harass Paul with, God intended to keep him from becoming conceited.

Don't forget about Job. :wave:
Even if you believe that God gave Satan "permission" to afflict Job, He did not commission him to do so.

BenAdam

29th July 2008, 01:00 PM

how on earth did this become a thread on Paul's thorn? Talk about derailing...

probinson

29th July 2008, 01:05 PM

how on earth did this become a thread on Paul's thorn? Talk about derailing...
The world may never know...

Optimax

29th July 2008, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Optimax http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=48002125#post48002125) A major fact about WOF has to do with the faith that seems to upset some.

WOF was established on faith in God, Jesus, The Holy Spirit and The Word.

That is why it is called Word of Faith.

Not "self faith" or "faith in faith", nor "works of faith", etc., as some proclaim.

WOF does not depend on self for anything, but God, Jesus, The Holy Spirit and The Word.

Is not self reliance and self confidence two of the major concerns that those against WOF bring up in their post?

Self reliance and self confidence are two attributes that WOF demands must be given up. When these two are present faith can not operate because faith is dependent upon God. Faith was given to each of us by God. We did not "go out and find our own faith". Can't be done.

God gave us the faith same as He gave us His Word in which he explains how to depend on Him for all that we need.

Would really be wonderful if those of you against WOF could realize this basic fact.

Might provide a view of things from the WOF side of the fence.

Theoretically, anyhow.

~Jim
The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.

Jim:
Your answer indicates that you will not reconsider that perhaps there are some things about WOF that you might have incorrectly judged?

rcorley

29th July 2008, 01:31 PM

how on earth did this become a thread on Paul's thorn? Talk about derailing...

Guess this is a hot topic.

Strangely enough, whenever the topic of healing is brought up, it tends to start a lively debate. Which has always been weird to me...this is not a salvation issue. If you want to believe that God heals everyone, great. If you want to believe that God sent you sickness, hey... whatever floats your boat.

One day, we all will know who is right on this subject because we get to go to heaven because of Jesus. Then if I'm wrong, you can tell me, "I told you so." Let's just agree that when we get there, Jesus can rebuke whoever was wrong. Then we can get about the business of worshiping Him. :thumbsup:

You all know where I stand on the issue, but I'm not going to twist anyone's arm to make them line up with me. I'll be over here in the faith camp if you need me. ;)

Tamara224

29th July 2008, 01:35 PM

OK.

I'm not ignoring a thing. Satan's intent was not to prevent Paul from becoming conceited. It was to "buffet" him.

At the risk of being accused of using my "preferred translation", The NLT says it this way;
even though I have received such wonderful revelations from God. So to keep me from becoming proud, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger from Satan to torment me and keep me from becoming proud.
But this is somewhat of a gnat strain, since the words of and from can be used interchangeably (except when trying to prove a doctrinal point, apparently. ;))

What was the purpose of the death and resurrection of Jesus? Why would Satan want to take any part in something that would result in the salvation of the world?

Your position begins with the wrong assumption that Satan foreknew how his buffeting would affect Paul, or what God had intended it for. Was Satan sitting around going, "Gee, I think I'll buffet Paul so that he doesn't become conceited"? Of course not. But what he intended to harass Paul with, God intended to keep him from becoming conceited.

Actually, my position doesn't attempt to presume to know what Satan did or did not know at all. You're the only one attempting to eisegete this passage in such a fashion.

My position is concerning the plain text of the passage.

The passage does NOT say that Satan sent the messenger. The passage does say that the purpose of the messenger was to keep Paul humble.

Even if you believe that God gave Satan "permission" to afflict Job, He did not commission him to do so.

I disagree, as you well know. But BA is right, we've derailed the thread. And I, for one, don't feel like arguing against the WoF reinterpretation of Job again.:wave:

Balance

29th July 2008, 04:53 PM

This is the presumption that I have been trained to believe and see in WOF. So if this, indeed is a lie, then what is the truth?

Truth would begin by looking at Word of Faith websites and view their doctrinal Stances.

Truth about what WoF "says"comes from what WoF "says" - not from what someone says they said -