What the heck is:

[HalcyonFire]

the Neturei Karta?

I found this: http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/index.cfm

but I don't get it... ??? (someone explain in non Jewish terms?)

[kivi]

the Neturei Karta?

I found this: http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/index.cfm

but I don't get it... ??? (someone explain in non Jewish terms?)

kivi says: There are two major theories on how to deal with Galus/Exile which started with the destruction of the Southern Kingodm and the Exile to Babyon. One theory is that you submit to the gentile rulers. You bribe and toady and suck-up and do whatever you have to do to get by and anything that the gentiles to do the Jews is because of the averiahs [sins] that caused us to sent into and kept in Galus. Kind of an Uncle Tom philosphy. So, things like an independent state [Israel] is forbidden. The Book of Esther, Bar Kochba and the failures of the 2 Jewish revolts against the Romans are used to support this theory. The other theory is that you don't take anything and you fight back every time the gentiles stick it to you. Like of an early Malchom X theory. Maccebees and and the State of Israel are used to support this theory. There is a lot of Jewish history that can be used to support which ever side you want to support.

[HalcyonFire]

so they believe until messiah comes Israel will be under the thumb of (insert gentile nation)... and to try to be otherwise is not holding with what is supposed to happen?

[kivi]

so they believe until messiah comes Israel will be under the thumb of (insert gentile nation)... and to try to be otherwise is not holding with what is supposed to happen?

kivi says: It will make Galus more painful and delay the Coming of Moshiach which will end Galus.

[HalcyonFire]

galus??

[kivi]

galus??

kivi says: Galus=Exile. Starts with the destruction of the Southern Kingdom and our Exile to Babylon. The return to Israel was never completed, and so, Galus has been in effect since. In Jewish thought, Galus is one of the 'biggies', defining our relations with the gentile Nations ever since. It is the on-going reminder of our need for Moshiach and our continued seperation from HaShem. It is the dominate reality of our lifes and the constant condition of our souls.

[Torah613]

excellent explanation Kivi.

Can i also add its refreshing to read ashkenazic pronunciation by someone else on this forum. ;)

Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

so by exiling themselves (by not taking part in the Nation of Israel) their exile will be less painful (??? weird concept) and won't end until Messiah comes. that really sounds illogical.

[Torah613]

I don't think anyone here is arguing that they aren't completely off their rockers.

Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

sure, but they have to have support in some way or they wouldn't be an issue (so there are lots more illogical people than just a couple)

[Torah613]

Yeah, you'll notice they get alot more discussion ona chr*stian webforum by chr*stians than they do in the Jewish community.

Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

??

I hadn't heard of them ever until the other day. (true it WAS here)

[Torah613]

and you'll notice it was chr*stians that kept bringing it up.

They are beyond fringe to us. They are so fringe the vast majority of Jews don't even think about them. WE didn't answer when they were brought up as a challange because we thought it was akin to painint all of chr*Stiananity by Jim Jones. That and we were busy laughing so hard our sides nearly split and my peyos uncurled.

Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

what groups are not fringe that have a major difference in theology? (are there any?)

[anisavta]

That and we were busy laughing so hard our sides nearly split and my peyos uncurled.http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_219.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxmk788OGUS)






http://www.smileycentral.com/sig.jsp?pc=ZSzeb096&pp=ZNxmk788OGUS (http://smiley.smileycentral.com/download/index.jhtml?partner=ZSzeb096_ZNxmk788OGUS&utm_id=7924)

[Torah613]

oh my lol.


REform and Orthodox. Reform and Reconstructionist. REform and Conservative. Orthodox and REconstructionist. Orthodox and Conservative. Chasidim and Mitnagadim.

Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

what about kairite (sp?)

[kivi]

excellent explanation Kivi.

Can i also add its refreshing to read ashkenazic pronunciation by someone else on this forum. ;)

Yochanan
kivi says: I'm just your average, run-of-the-mill Young Israel type Jew.

[kivi]

so by exiling themselves (by not taking part in the Nation of Israel) their exile will be less painful (??? weird concept) and won't end until Messiah comes. that really sounds illogical.

kivi says: To start out, I don't agree with them, but they have an internal logic that makes sense.
1/ The current Nation of Israel is not a Torah Jewish state. It was founded by Zionist/Communist Jews who were actively and aggressively hostile to any religion and particularly, Judaism, seeing it as a medeival/ghetto remenant that they were trying to over-come. 2/ Every time the Jews have taken on the gentiles in war, we have gotten our tushes handed to us, big time. We aren't stupid. We learned our lesson. Don't take on Esav, directly. Shuck and jive and work around him. 3/ If the current state in Israel is secular, which it is, then it is an hinderance to the Coming of Moshaich. If we get our tushes handed to us, then the current state of Israel [which now may look like a winner] is really a set-up for a later tush mauling on the part of Esav toward Yaakov. If we are to be dependent on HaShem in all things, then any attempt by us to hasten the Coming of Moshiach which will end Galus will boomarang against us.

[HalcyonFire]

I didn't know it wasn't set up by Torah observant Jews...??? why on earth did that happen?

[kivi]

I didn't know it wasn't set up by Torah observant Jews...??? why on earth did that happen?

kivi says: We are talking 6 credit at the post graduate level. Don't expect me to do it a paragraph.
If you are interested in Jewish history, see the following and then we can talk. OK??? :clap: It will take you a day or two to read, but its the straight goods from a frum [that what we call ourselves in the Obsrvbant community] prespective. :wave:And the academic history part is right on the money. Its one of the foundation stones of my historical understanding of Judaism.:thumbsup:


http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/

[HalcyonFire]

i need to read all 67 parts? or just the current ones :)

[kivi]

i need to read all 67 parts? or just the current ones :)

kivi says: The more current ones will give you an over-view of Zionist history. If I can say something personal? You're one of the brightest I have found on CF, brightest and openminded. I would love if you would just take the time to read the while thingee. Then I can speak with you with some common ground and, I think, some appreciation and understanding. Would you please do it? :hug: As a personal favor?!:prayer:

[HalcyonFire]

sure kivi.

you're gonna give me a big head.. i'm flattered. (here I thought I looked like a raving idiot when we had tea and cookies together)

[kivi]

sure kivi.

you're gonna give me a big head.. i'm flattered. (here I thought I looked like a raving idiot when we had tea and cookies together)

kivi says: In past lives, I have been a therapist and a teacher, I was paid good money to evaluate people, their strengths and weaknesses. I am good at it. No big head needed on your part, just an honest evaluation of your capabilities and skills.

[Torah613]

what about kairite (sp?)

Karaites don't practice Judaism. They are in Avodah Zara, strange or foreign worship. Basically they are the descendents of the first century sadduccee sect, which of course as a pharisee I would see as heretical. :P

Yochanan

[Torah613]

kivi says: I'm just your average, run-of-the-mill Young Israel type Jew.


I did not know that YI used Ashkenaz pronunciation. Learn something new everyday. Ashkenaz is so much more refreshing on the ears you know. ;)

Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

Karaites don't practice Judaism. They are in Avodah Zara, strange or foreign worship. Basically they are the descendents of the first century sadduccee sect, which of course as a pharisee I would see as heretical. :P

Yochanan
but obviously they see themselves as practicing Judaism, and in biblical times the saducees were seen as practicing Judaism as they were in the temple, so maybe this is just a distinction made after a side "won" after the fall of the temple?

[Torah613]

yes and no. Judaism does not see them as practicing Judaism because they have changed so many things.

Yochanan

[kivi]

but obviously they see themselves as practicing Judaism, and in biblical times the saducees were seen as practicing Judaism as they were in the temple, so maybe this is just a distinction made after a side "won" after the fall of the temple?

kivi says: One of the problems in any historic study is the difficulty of defining what is 'normative' or 'deviant' to any group over time. The best way is to find what a group believed and practiced during a particular period of time and then extend that through time to a later time. The present group that is closest [and you can count them, this can be highly objective and quantitative] to the practices and beliefs of the previous [in time] studied group is the normative one. If you do that, you will find the tradition goes from Moses to Joshua to the Elders to the Judges to the Prophets to the men of the Great Assembly to the Pairs to the Pharisees to the Talmudic scholars to the Rabbis onto current Orthodoxy. If you take any observable and measurable set of practices of Judaism and study them over time, you will find this to be true.

Of course, for any group, deviations are also very patterned and predictable. So, with Judaism, there is always the attempt to escape the strictures of the Law. All of the deviations have that as their central premise: the Gold Calf crowd, Korech rebellion, the false prophets, the royal family in both the Northern and Southern Kingdoms, the Babylonian assimulationists, the Hellenists, the Sadducees, the Essenes, the Christians, the Karites, the Sabbatarians, the Zionists, current jumble of Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist. All, in one form or another, tried or are trying to escape the Law. They do this in numerous ways, but the goal is always the same.

Another excellent historical way is to track, as you pointed out, who won and who lost. And again, you will find that the deviations are not continous, they are not consistant and their are not viable, over time. And you will find that the normative are continous, consistant and viable.

Another way is to count the size of the groups. That group that has the larget population, over time, usually is the normative group and the group with the smaller populaiton that is declining, over time, is the deviant. The fundamental definiton to normative, historically, is survival. If the sub-group does not suvive, then is is deviant.

Now, all of these system analytical tools must be used. Oherwise, the study will be invalid because it is likely that for one of the potential measurements, a 'deviant' group may 'score' high. For example, Christianity wins in the population analysis. So, none of the analytical tools is, by itself, a 'slam dunk'.

[HalcyonFire]

but normative and deviant assumes that the group in power, in the present place of normalicy, is the correct path, which isn't really truthful, but living off the here and now rather than what was previously considered correct, isn't it?

the fact that the saducees were temple based leaders, and the temple was destroyed may well have been the deciding factor rather than the correctness of their stance

(not saying you guys are wrong, just arguing the idea that the winner is right)

[kivi]

but normative and deviant assumes that the group in power, in the present place of normalicy, is the correct path, which isn't really truthful, but living off the here and now rather than what was previously considered correct, isn't it?

the fact that the saducees were temple based leaders, and the temple was destroyed may well have been the deciding factor rather than the correctness of their stance

(not saying you guys are wrong, just arguing the idea that the winner is right)

kivi says: I'm not arguing right or wrong. I am talking as an historian about objective ways of deciding what groups are the 'normative/mainstream' and what are the 'deviant'. And I am not bring negative implications to the term 'deviante'. I am merely using it in its 'academic', non-judgemental formulation.

I would says that the Sadducees were pretty typical upper class pro-Roman assimuationists who used their control of the Temple as a way of maintaining their influence and wealth. The Temple was a tremendous cash cow, what with the Temple tax paid by every Jew in the world, both in the Roman Empire and the Pesian Empire. There was also the day to day business of the Temple, a great source of patronage and ready cash. The Temple was, by far, the biggest business in Jerusalem. The Sadducees paid the Romans a huge bribe each year to maintain control of the High Preist position which brought them control of theTemple. Think New York City political machine, like Tammany Hall. Don't think pious Priests. Many of the Sadducees were assassinated by the Zealots during the Roman siege of Jerusalem. Those who escaped, with the Temple gone, just continued their assimulaiton and dissappeared into Roman society.

[HalcyonFire]

ah, well academically I don't accept that that is the proper way to discern who is mainstream and who is not :) lol

[ShirChadash]

ah, well academically I don't accept that that is the proper way to discern who is mainstream and who is not :) lol
*main*stream is exactly that, though, ERM -- the MAIN FLOW. Normative does not mean "right" it means "the norm". "Deviant", while taken as negativity by the vast majority, simply means "deviating" from the "norm/majority".

[HalcyonFire]

wow. I'd hate to be mainstream and not right because of it. that'd suck. (not inferring anything but just commenting on the idea)

[Torah613]

well we are simply speaking academically here, not doctrine.

Academically speaking, the EOx and RCs are the "normative" chr*stians, whereas protestants would be considered "deviant." Its not a commentary on doctrine, but rather on historical realities. The protestants appeared 1500 years roughly after the start of chr*stianity, thus deviating from what had been the norm.

We are not saying one is right or wrong in this discussion. We are talking about historical/academic realities.

Yochanan

[ShirChadash]

wow. I'd hate to be mainstream and not right because of it. that'd suck. (not inferring anything but just commenting on the idea)
I realized a long time ago that "enter by the NARROW gate" and not the wide, easy path, has a lot to do with just that reality.

AND I should say, when I speak of normative, I do speak of not only orthodox christians and RCC, but also the daughter branches of the RCC in protestantism. Generic general chri*ianity -- Jesus = god, savior, true god and true man, died for sins in order to make it possible for us to have relationship, etc. MOST of normative Chr*ianity agrees at least generally on MOST theologies re: Je*us, even if they describe, teach or apply those theologies differently in some variations.

[ShirChadash]

We are not saying one is right or wrong in this discussion. We are talking about historical/academic realities.


absolutely agree, you got it Yochi...

[kivi]

ah, well academically I don't accept that that is the proper way to discern who is mainstream and who is not :) lol

kivi s: Then:wave: give an alternative that can be quantified.:)

[HalcyonFire]

but then you also have to question what is historical reality of a group that keeps its own records :) where do we get our church history? from the church. lol. it seems erroneous to think that the people keeping the history are the ones who are passing the judgement of norm in alot of cases.

[LittleLambofJesus]

kivi says: I'm not arguing right or wrong. I am talking as an historian about objective ways of deciding what groups are the 'normative/mainstream' and what are the 'deviant'. And I am not bring negative implications to the term 'deviante'. I am merely using it in its 'academic', non-judgemental formulation.

I would says that the Sadducees were pretty typical upper class pro-Roman assimuationists who used their control of the Temple as a way of maintaining their influence and wealth. The Temple was a tremendous cash cow, what with the Temple tax paid by every Jew in the world, both in the Roman Empire and the Pesian Empire. There was also the day to day business of the Temple, a great source of patronage and ready cash. The Temple was, by far, the biggest business in Jerusalem. The Sadducees paid the Romans a huge bribe each year to maintain control of the High Preist position which brought them control of theTemple. Think New York City political machine, like Tammany Hall. Don't think pious Priests. Many of the Sadducees were assassinated by the Zealots during the Roman siege of Jerusalem. Those who escaped, with the Temple gone, just continued their assimulaiton and dissappeared into Roman society.Greetings. I had a view that perhaps this is what YHWH meant in Ezekiel 38:21 which is again presented in Revelation. Interesting?

Ezekiel 38:21 "And I call on him, to all of mountains of Me, a Sword, declaration of my Lord YHWH".
"Sword of man in brother of him shall become".

Revelation 6:4 And came out another horse, firery red, and to the one sitting upon it/him was given to him/it to be taking the Peace out of the land and that one another they shall be slaying and was given to him a Sword/macaira <3162>, Great.

I could use some views on this thread:

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7270298
What month was first Passover.

[HalcyonFire]

I think probably posting pro-christian stuff isn't really appropriate. I'd really like this not to turn into an us/them thread like so many do here. you know i appreciate alot of what you say, but there's a time and a place and this really isn't it.

[LittleLambofJesus]

I think probably posting pro-christian stuff isn't really appropriate. I'd really like this not to turn into an us/them thread like so many do here. you know i appreciate alot of what you say, but there's a time and a place and this really isn't it.Where did I mention Jesus? I was quoting from the Hebrew OT/OC in response to a post.

[HalcyonFire]

the revelation part is christian... that's what I was referring to.

[LittleLambofJesus]

the revelation part is christian... that's what I was referring to.Ummm no it isn't. It is the fulfillment of the OC in my view.

For example, how would the Song of Moses apply to me, a "gentile" :confused:

Revelation 15:3 and They are singing the Song of-Moses, the bond-servant of the God, and the song of the Lamb-kin, saying, `Great and marvelous the works of Thee, Lord!, the God, the Almighty, just and true the ways of Thee, the king of the [*Ages/Saints] Nations

Exodus 15:1 Then sang Mosheh and the sons of Yisra'el this song unto YHWH, and they spake saying,--"I will sing to YHWH for He is exalted exalted,--The horse and his rider hath He cast into the Sea.

[HalcyonFire]

it's the "in my view part". basically it's semi-inflammatory to people who are posting here and I'd really like to avoid it. that's all. I'm not saying you're wrong, not saying anything about your content but "please not here"

[LittleLambofJesus]

it's the "in my view part". basically it's semi-inflammatory to people who are posting here and I'd really like to avoid it. that's all. I'm not saying you're wrong, not saying anything about your content but "please not here"Ok. I will respect your wishes and hope to get some views on this thread I started here. Shalom :hug:

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7270298
What month was first Passover.

[SGM4HIM]

I wanted to share a site by historian Rabbi Ken Spiro I just found "A crash course in Jewish History". He really gets into the 2nd temple and Maccabean revolt, and assimilation/accommadation issues between Israel and it's occupiers.

Kivi's post seems to echo Spiro's thoughts

http://www.simpletoremember.com/audio/crash-course-jewish-history-mp3s.htm

Each section is an audio teaching, a real eye opener, and very rich.

[kivi]

I wanted to share a site by historian Rabbi Ken Spiro I just found "A crash course in Jewish History". He really gets into the 2nd temple and Maccabean revolt, and assimilation/accommadation issues between Israel and it's occupiers.

Kivi's post seems to echo Spiro's thoughts

http://www.simpletoremember.com/audio/crash-course-jewish-history-mp3s.htm

Each section is an audio teaching, a real eye opener, and very rich.

kivi says: He is one of my main guys. I have used him as a reference in numerous incidents.