OT: Honor Killings

[Dorothea]

I watched a special on that last night...very disturbing and hard to watch (I had to block my eyes in one part and change the channel back to the China week special on the Travel Channel at one part). I'd read a book on honor killings in Jordan several years ago. Watching these stories, they all sounded the same as the one I read in the book and the examples of news stories she put in the back of the book (male family members being accomplices to the father or brother who commits the crime). I find it an oxymoron to say honor killings, but I know what the definition is. It's still despicable, and I feel horrible for the women in the ME who are trapped in this culture and society. These men only get a slap on the wrist, at worst a couple days in jail for this. It's sick. Some were trying to say it has nothing to do with Muslim and that it isn't part of it. Well, according to the book, Jordan's Islamic code has that in it. So, yeah, it's part of it. I've heard some different non Muslim countries used to do that centuries ago.....yeah, centuries ago, not now. Ugh. Anybody have any thoughts on this?

[Lukaris]

While Islam does not condone these abominations it compromised with pre Islamic tendencies and its own authoritarian and stagnant construct allows these horrors to continue. According to the 1960s Islamic scholar & dissident Seyyid Qutb, "There is no church in Islam; no one can speak in the name of God except his messenger..." (Qutb, Milestones p.85). This is actually anarchy and there is no divine institution to form a conciliar and holy opinion and thugs end up calling the shots all in the name of the "prophet."

[Dorothea]

While Islam does not condone these abominations it compromised with pre Islamic tendencies and its own authoritarian and stagnant construct allows these horrors to continue. According to the 1960s Islamic scholar & dissident Seyyid Qutb, "There is no church in Islam; no one can speak in the name of God except his messenger..." (Qutb, Milestones p.85). This is actually anarchy and there is no divine institution to form a conciliar and holy opinion and thugs end up calling the shots all in the name of the "prophet."
Yes, no kidding. The royal family in Jordan denounced this, but they really don't have much say at all. They're basically there for display. Ugh. The parliament or whatever the Jordanians call their governmental assemblies, do allow such crimes even when they say they don't.

[Greg the byzantine]

First I want to say that the idea is just sickening but was not confined to Muslim Nations. In the past Husbands/Fathers/Brothers have been the head of the family and have had supreme control over their female relatives. Even in Greece, such honor killings have been known to happen. They are disgusting, but we must not lie and say that these things are confined to Muslim Nations. The fact is they are a product of misogynism and disgusting attitudes about the status of women.

Here's a translation of a very sad song (Doesn't do the song justice) from Cyprus called "Androniki"

8. Androniki
Heard have you what happened in places Greek so true?
A maiden, Androniki, donned European clothes.
She put on trousers long and straight, to a coffee-shop she goes
And orders a coffee, black and strong, a hookah-pipe as well.
She also pulls a table up, a deck of cards as well,
And starts to play for money, with one such strapping man.
Two of her brother’s friends ― alas ― they recognised her so;
They go straight to Evangelos and tell him what they saw.
On hearing what they told him, Evangelos got mad;
He went straight back to his abode and armed himself amain.
He takes the road without delay, the coffee-shop he reaches,
And finds his sister, Androniki, a-smoking on the pipe.
- Oh pity on you, O sister mine, what arts are these I see?
To our family, to our household, a great shame you have brought.
- Vangeli, leave me, let me be, and let me play the cards
With this young strapping man you see. He loves me; it is true.
He pulls out the revolver black, he shoots her once and twice,
The bullets hit her in the chest, her right breast do they pierce.
His knife he then takes and unsheathes, he draws it out and then
He slaughters his sweet sister dear, his darling Androniki.
And as they brought her out from home, in final rest to go,
Both young and old wept for her brows, so dark and O so shapely.
From where they passed her, all would cry,
All weeping for her beauty.
And when outside the shops they passed,
Both young and old wept for her breasts.
And when they reached the coffee-shop,
The cups did break, the coffee spilt.
And when they lowered her in the ground, the place of final rest,
Two of her brother’s friends, they wept, being saddled with her death.

I first heard this song from Andreas Mappouras in around 1985. Following that however, I heard it from many aged interpreters in many different variations, mainly concerning certain additions, deductions or changes to the lyrics. This narrative song refers to a true story which took place somewhere in the Hellenic world at around the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century. A song with the exact same title and telling the same story is also encountered in Asia Minor. It is worth noting that the Asia Minor variation does not have the same melody as the Cypriot one, something which leads us to the conclusion that it was possibly not the song that made its way to Cyprus but the story which, it appears, was taken by some unknown folk-poet of the time and made into a song. The most probable case however is that “Androniki” reached the island as a poem, through some publication, and that a Cypriot folk-poet set it to music in this narrative style, adapting it to the Cypriot dialect and making his own changes to the verse.
It is however a fact that at the beginning of the last century, “Androniki” was a very popular song in Cyprus, given that all aged individuals with whom I talked about the song remembered it with tears in their eyes.

Source: Andreas Mappouras - Aradippou

http://www.mousalyra.com.cy/english/diskografia_kypraia_foni2.htm

BTW if anybody is curious about the song heres a little sample:

http://www.mousalyra.com.cy/sound/kypraia_foni2/8.mp3

[Dorothea]

I've heard about that, Greg. My mom has told me that happened in the past even in Greece and other countries that aren't Muslim. The difference, I think, though, is that as far as I know, those countries have quit the barbaric act, while the ME muslim countries have not.

[EmperorConstantine]

I couldn't help but wonder something.

Quite a few of these killings are because you have a Middle Eastern Muslim girl dating a Yank born and raised in the USA, girl's family disapproves and girl is killed by family. I couldn't help but wonder this: would the girl have been killed if the two married and the Yank become a Muslim? :confused:

(yes, I am serious)


A large part of the problem is, as Lukaris pointed out, its all anarchy in Islam and a lot of pre-Islamic regional whatevers still exist.

[Ebor]

I've heard about that, Greg. My mom has told me that happened in the past even in Greece and other countries that aren't Muslim. The difference, I think, though, is that as far as I know, those countries have quit the barbaric act, while the ME muslim countries have not.

Unfortunately not, and it's not limited to persons of a muslim background. The book Unto the Daughters: The Legacy of an Honor Killing in a Sicilian-American Family by Karen Tintori is a book about a case in the Chicago area in the earlier 20th Century. And there was a news report in early July of a father in Georgia killing his daughter who wanted to get away from an arranged marriage. They happen in the US too.

Ebor

[Dorothea]

Unfortunately not, and it's not limited to persons of a muslim background. The book Unto the Daughters: The Legacy of an Honor Killing in a Sicilian-American Family by Karen Tintori is a book about a case in the Chicago area in the earlier 20th Century. And there was a news report in early July of a father in Georgia killing his daughter who wanted to get away from an arranged marriage. They happen in the US too.

Ebor
Wow, I didn't know about the ones you mentioned. That's truly sad. Was the case in GA considered an honor crime or just a murder? I'm just wondering because I'm thinking they may not use that term or have a different view of it, even though it comes out to the same thing, judging by the description of why he killed his daughter.

Unfortunately, killings in the families seem to be getting worse...or is it just me? It seems about every few weeks, we hear about a missing wife/mother, and they end up having been killed by their husbands. Or children being thrown over a bridge by their dad, or drowning them by their own mothe, or leaving them in a burning house. Tragic. :(

[seashale76]

I couldn't help but wonder something.

Quite a few of these killings are because you have a Middle Eastern Muslim girl dating a Yank born and raised in the USA, girl's family disapproves and girl is killed by family. I couldn't help but wonder this: would the girl have been killed if the two married and the Yank become a Muslim? :confused:

(yes, I am serious)


A large part of the problem is, as Lukaris pointed out, its all anarchy in Islam and a lot of pre-Islamic regional whatevers still exist.

It's hard to say, but based on the experiences of some Muslim friends of mine back when they were getting family approved marriage proposals to sift through, it was evident that not only did their potential husband have to be Muslim, but from the same country/group/ethnicity/culture. It seems to work a little differently if it is a Muslim man marrying a woman, but women are reigned in pretty tightly.

I had one friend that all of her phone calls were monitored. Her father was fairly draconian when it came to her and her sister, but their brother was allowed to philander around and do anything he wanted and still be considered a good Muslim. I think there was an arranged marriage for her that would necessitate her going to Egypt to live with a total stranger, so instead of complying, she wound up changing her first name, eloped with a white Catholic boy, and moved as far away from daddy as she could get.

I think that deep down, many of them consider themselves culturally Muslim, and their particular culture will win out every time. If the culture dictates a strict form of Islam, then they'll follow it, if not, then they just aren't good Muslimahs. One of my friends claimed to have come to terms with the fact that she was a bad Muslim and going to hell.

[buzuxi02]

Theres a difference between honor killings committed by those outside of muslim culture and those committed by muslims is that in the former, it is a serious crime of first degree pre-meditated murder, while those within Islam its equal to petty theivery.

It is a myth to believe that this is "pre-islamic". It is islamic culture which has created this, and it did not exist in pre-islamic ME. This is evident in history. Alexander the Great encouraged his soldiers to intermarry amongst the women of the peoples he conquered and not just to tick them off but to demonstrate that he viewed them as equals.

Likewise in the west, honor killings have always been rare, atleast one roman emperor was an arab, Philip the Arabian who ruled from 244-249. He married a eoman governors daughter without any problems.

[Dorothea]

Theres a difference between honor killings committed by those outside of muslim culture and those committed by muslims is that in the former, it is a serious crime of first degree pre-meditated murder, while those within Islam its equal to petty theivery.

It is a myth to believe that this is "pre-islamic". It is islamic culture which has created this, and it did not exist in pre-islamic ME. This is evident in history. Alexander the Great encouraged his soldiers to intermarry amongst the women of the peoples he conquered and not just to tick them off but to demonstrate that he viewed them as equals.

Likewise in the west, honor killings have always been rare, atleast one roman emperor was an arab, Philip the Arabian who ruled from 244-249. He married a eoman governors daughter without any problems.
That's an interesting history lesson. I didn't know all of that. Thanks, buz. :)