So let me get this straight

[Torah613]

Its ok, meaning no rule violation, for a mod to state that victims of the shoah were rapists and murderers. However, stating that Martin Luthor held antisemitic views at certain points in his life gets your post deleted?

I'm so outta here. from what I remember of Chr*stianity, there isn't a chr*Stian acting person among you. From what I know of Judaism, y'all are goyishe to the core.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

BTW anyone who wants to stay in contact with me, well you know my email addy. Those that don't, trust me there's a reason.

Yochanan

[anisavta]

Sorry to see you go Jochanan. I for one was enjoying the discussions we had and learning from you.
Be blessed.

[Torah613]

I was too until some people, meaning the person who founded this forum to begin with, went and fouled the waters so bad.

Yochanan

[anisavta]

So you now have a choice. You can take your toys and go and grow angry and bitter and sure all who believe different than you (even though you would be surprised to find that in the big picture many beliefs are actually quite close) especially those who believe in Yeshua are bad people. Or you can thicken up the skin and realize everyone (even you some day) will say something very hurtful to someone and may not even acknowledge it.
Those who suffered thru HaShoah and lived learned a great lesson. Either accept people warts and all and learn to forgive or grow old and hateful and die miserable. There is too much to learn and whether we like it or not, sometimes it is not pleasant.
We all have said some very unkind and harmful things to each other. But HaShem is bigger than our hurtful words and wants to teach all of us through each other.
OK Ima hat off.

[Torah613]

yeah, that could be, except this is merely the straw that has broken the camels back on a very, very long run.

Yochanan

[ChavaK]

Its ok, meaning no rule violation, for a mod to state that victims of the shoah were rapists and murderers. However, stating that Martin Luthor held antisemitic views at certain points in his life gets your post deleted?

I'm so outta here. from what I remember of Chr*stianity, there isn't a chr*Stian acting person among you. From what I know of Judaism, y'all are goyishe to the core.

Yochanan

What???? Where was this stated?

If true, how could anyone be so cruel to post this?

[Henaynei]

What???? Where was this stated?

If true, how could anyone be so cruel to post this?it wasn't stated or posted - it is an assumption taken out of contest from a post in the Ohio Prison thread - in spite of repeated efforts to explain what was actually meant.

[Torah613]

what repeated explanations, the explanations say the same thing as the original. I showed the post to several english speakers originally from all over the world. These were all native english speakers, and all got the same thing out of the thread.

Several repeated attempts at getting vis to explain resulted in nothing. So we see the true colors of her and by extention the members of your community who didn't speak up against it.

Yochanan

[anisavta]

The horse is dead folks. A statement was made. It was a statement that should not have been made. It was used by several who posted to lob us vrs them bombs. The bombs hit their targets. Are we mature here for both "sides" to just count it as a lets move on in our damaged humanity or not.

[FaithfulWife]

... Several repeated attempts at getting vis to explain resulted in nothing. So we see the true colors of her and by extention the members of your community who didn't speak up against it.

Yochanan

My friend,

I would like to say two things. I know we have not known each other long, and yet I would like to gently point out that I don't live on CF nor do I read every thread. If you must know the truth, I read this thread back in the day when the debate was "the messianic pastor said kosher wasn't necessary and doesn't a person in prison sort of give up the right to demand religious dietary requirements?" Honestly at that point I didn't think the thread was even worth commenting on, and I didn't look again.

Until this morning.

Now I've read the whole thread and before I jump into the fray, I wanted to think about it and give it a moment rather than just responding quickly in anger. Yet I feel that by your statement you would blanket accuse me (a member of the community) "...because I didn't stand up to it." I do understand how you feel and the literally gross inappropriateness of the statement, but I have to admit, I think you may be lashing out in the same hurtful way that you are accusing "us" of. May I please make a suggestion? Rather than lashing at the MJ's in hurt and leaving, may I suggest that you bow out of the conversation for a bit and give us a chance to stand up? In other words, rather than saying "...all MJ's believe in that hateful talk" how about if you just take one step back and allow us the opportunity to take care of it ourselves and speak out against it? Then rather than saying "...all MJ's (anything)" you can see for yourself that may well be ONE INDIVIDUAL but it isn't our community.

***

Second topic, I would like to point out to you that CF has a wonderful feature called "Ignore." When it is determined that the posts of one individual are so grievous and so baiting as to continuously create strife and trigger you to anger, there is an option to never have to see that person's posts again. What you do click "User CP" and "Edit Ignore List". I found this option to be very useful to me in the Marriage Ministry area. There are two posters there whom I believe specifically write things just to ruffle feathers--or if they truly believe ANY of what they write I pity their spouses! Anyway, the point is that every single time they'd write, I would get hurt, angry, etc. and it was purely trolling and baiting! So I put them on Ignore. Now I no longer have to subject myself to their attempts to stir up folks to anger. I can reply and respond to all the OTHER participants in Marriage Ministry who are actually good people and there to actually discuss marriage!

So Torah, we do have this wonderful function and it is available to you to use just so you CAN avoid having to subject yourself to the hurt and anger. Some people just rub other people so much so the wrong way that it's best to Ignore them! Please feel free to Ignore the one in order to be blessed by the many...and also please give us the chance to deal speak up whenever ANY horrid statement is said like that--whether it's against a Jew, a Christian, or a specific denomination!

If you choose to go, just know that you'll be missed and a large piece of our community will be missing without you.



~Faithful

[Torah613]

The poster in question is a mod (though not of this area) and thus can't be placed on the ignore list. Trust me, I've tried for quite some time now.

Yochanan

[kivi]

I was too until some people, meaning the person who founded this forum to begin with, went and fouled the waters so bad.

Yochanan

kivi says: I have to disagree with you. Of course, what you decide for yourself, I will respect. But I know for me, my job is to be going into the building, not trying to escape it. Of course, those that hate us with say evil things about us and do evil things to us. Esav hates Yaakov. Now is the time to confront Esav. Now is the time to take on Esav. And the most important people on this forum and every other forums I particapate in are the lurkers. Not the slanders but those who are listening from outside the fight in the cock-pit. How am I conductiong myself. Am I fair and honest? Do I give sources? Do I identify the problem or do I try to dump it off on someone else? If I do that, no matter the blood and feathers on the pit, I will have done my job. This is not about my tastes or likes or dislikes. This is about my obligation to G-d and B'nai Israel and my grattitude for being a Jew.

[anisavta]

Kivi as long as you do not feel it is your duty to be on a "Christian Forum" in order to try and destroy the thoughts, feelings, souls and hearts of those who are on this Forum because they believe in Yeshua.

[kivi]

Kivi as long as you do not feel it is your duty to be on a "Christian Forum" in order to try and destroy the thoughts, feelings, souls and hearts of those who are on this Forum because they believe in Yeshua.

kivi says: Torah forbids evangelizing. It is detrimental to Judaism and un-necessary for G-d's plan of human re-generation and spiritual growth. I am here to merely present an authentic Torah voice.

[anisavta]

kivi says: Torah forbids evangelizing. It is detrimental to Judaism and un-necessary for G-d's plan of human re-generation and spiritual growth. I am here to merely present an authentic Torah voice.

Because we asked you to???????
Please come and tear down our faith and call our Redeemer a "dead Jew".
That dead Jew quote was from one of your faithful followers.

Chabad is the evangelistic arm of Judaism BTW.
That's how you can convert don't you know.

[ShirChadash]

Because we asked you to???????
no -- because it is needed.

I'm sure the Jews asked for messianics to come along, take on Jewish customs and waltz into the synagogue parking lots everywhere, and through the Jewish neighborhoods in EY, too. Oh, they didn't. Oh but I bet you think it is "needed" for messianics to state their truth in those places. I'm thinking Kivi realizes that an authentic Jewish voice is needed here, where Jews have been nothing but maligned, delegitimized and accused for a long while (on this board, not just this forum).

[anisavta]

Martyrdom becomes you darlin'.
So we need the "voice of truth" in a forum called Messianic Way.
Should we who are Messianics go to an Orthodox forum and share our Truth?
Talk about death by keyboard.

Interesting observation. If we did that we would be kicked out and laid flat in two seconds. We allow y'all to come here and tell us our Messiah is a dead jew and we are pretty bad people and we are telling you things that I haven't read yet in any thread I've been in here but you insist we say. Maybe there is something to this thing called "turning the other cheek" and loving our "enemies".

[kivi]

Because we asked you to???????
Please come and tear down our faith and call our Redeemer a "dead Jew".
That dead Jew quote was from one of your faithful followers.

Chabad is the evangelistic arm of Judaism BTW.
That's how you can convert don't you know.

kivi says: There are significant differences between Christian and Jew. We reject your religion and you reject ours. Hardly the casual conversation of a dinner party. Now what? We can say it politely or rudely, but 'dead jew' is how we feel. Jesus is not the Messiah, so he, like all Jews before him and afer him, is just another 'dead jew'.

You can say it politely or rudely but when you say

anisavta (http://christianforums.com/member.php?u=225845) http://img.christianforums.com/style/statusicon/user_online.gif
Celebrating 30 yrs of marriage
Originally Posted by kivi http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=48002472#post48002472) kivi says: Thank you. I'll cite you when I use that arguement talking with Lulav or CM.:)

They have Jewish blood running thru their veins. Do you?,
that is how you feel. I don't try to deny how you feel, even thought it is an insult so deep in my soul as to be unspeakable on my part.

So, by the very statement of our spiritual postions we insult each other.
Now what? I don't plan to go any where. I plan to stay here. I plan to defend Judaism. So, why am I here and not in a Jewish site, defending Judaism. Because this is were the Christians are. Because the difference between Judaism and Christianity is not their theology or their practices, as such. There are a lot of religions that Judaism doesn't agree with. So what?!? They leave us alone and we'll leave them alone. See any Jewish defenders on Shinto sites???? I don't think you'll find any. Why? Because we don't see any Shinto Missionaries on Jewish sites.

But on Jewish sites, you have to wade through the Christian Missionaries. Southern Baptists, J4Js, Messianics, all sorts of Missionaries. All trying to convert Jews to Christianity of whatever flavor. So, myself and some other Jews who have some skills and information come here to talk with Christians about the problem and explain Judaism in such a way that it is not treated as an illegitimate spiritual path. That's all we want. We don't want Christianity to stop being Christianity, we don't want to covert any Christians. We just want Chirstianity to leave us alone as we want to leave you alone. You will notice that we don't say much about Catholics. The reason is simple. They have stopped the evangelic game directed at us.

Maybe all of this is a waste of time, a waste of time. I hope not. Its my deal, and I'll do the best I know with it. I think that if Christianity really has the truth about Judaism, the average Christian will see Judaism for what it is, a legitimate spiritual path rather than a path that needs to be destroyed. And if I can convince one Christian of that, I have been over paid for my work.

So, we'lll start here about correcting mis-conceptions about Judaism. Sorry, but you just don't now much about CHABAD. They have a strong outtreach to non-observant Jews. But they no more believe that coverting non-Jews to Judaism is right than any other Jewish organization. In fact, amoungst the Jews, CHABAD is the most stringent/difficult [like impossible] to gain conversion through.

[ShirChadash]

Martyrdom becomes you darlin'.
So we need the "voice of truth" in a forum called Messianic Way.
Should we who are Messianics go to an Orthodox forum and share our Truth?
Talk about death by keyboard.

Interesting observation. If we did that we would be kicked out and laid flat in two seconds. We allow y'all to come here and tell us our Messiah is a dead jew and we are pretty bad people and we are telling you things that I haven't read yet in any thread I've been in here but you insist we say. Maybe there is something to this thing called "turning the other cheek" and loving our "enemies".
If you intend to share all about what is "Judaism" and Judaic thought, yeah I think you do need a voice of authentic Judaism. But beyond that, you all run about accusing rabbinic Jews and misrepresenting rabbinic Judaism to your hearts' content and you bet I think you need someone like Kivi here to set the record straight. And more like Kivi in fact. And feigned martyrdom? Well, I did live the messianic life for a good many years so I guess you could say I learned well huh.

[ChavaK]

Because we asked you to???????
Please come and tear down our faith and call our Redeemer a "dead Jew".
That dead Jew quote was from one of your faithful followers.
Didn't realize Kivi had "faithful followers" here....and why should
he be held accountable for someone else's statement?


Chabad is the evangelistic arm of Judaism BTW.
Only towards other Jews, and it is properly called
kiruv. We help persuade Jews to return to Torah, not
get gentiles to convert to Judaism.


That's how you can convert don't you know.
Huh? :confused:

[anisavta]

There are several converts from the christian church who are Ger who have done their conversion thru Chabad. However I don't know of any who have converted thru Orthodox Chasid.

[anisavta]

Didn't realize Kivi had "faithful followers" here....and why should
he be held accountable for someone else's statement?


That's why I qualified it as being from another poster.

[ShirChadash]

Didn't realize Kivi had "faithful followers" here....and why should
he be held accountable for someone else's statement? news to me, too, though I think he's a right stand-up guy.


Only towards other Jews, and it is properly called
kiruv. We help persuade Jews to return to Torah, not
get gentiles to convert to Judaism.


Huh? :confused:
but CHAVA, if people understand and accept the FACT, that that is the truth, then how can they paint Jooz as evil people out to make HaShem-followers of the whole wide werrrrld?

[ShirChadash]

There are several converts from the christian church who are Ger who have done their conversion thru Chabad. However I don't know of any who have converted thru Orthodox Chasid.
who? where?

But then again, you think we're all just disgruntled "hurt by chris*ians" as well, and that's not the case for almost ANY convert I know. We came to acceptance and conversion to Judaism by nothing but pure obedient study and willingness to do the very scary hard work of following HaShem where He leads His own. But hey, I know it is more comfy for you to claim all sorts of falsehood and try to delegitimize us :thumbsup: .

[Torah613]

Because we asked you to???????
Please come and tear down our faith and call our Redeemer a "dead Jew".
That dead Jew quote was from one of your faithful followers.

Chabad is the evangelistic arm of Judaism BTW.
That's how you can convert don't you know.

Uh what? Chabad does Kiruv or Inreach work very well. However Chabad does not perform conversions. Every once in a great while, but very very very very very very rarely. Maybe one out of every 10,000 who approach them. Reform however does do outreach. However Reform Jews wouldn't know a passage of Mishnah from a passage of Zohar.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

Now Chabad isn't Orthodox? Or do you mean they aren't Chasidic?

Do you even know the first thing about Chabad Anisavta?

Note, I am not a chabadnik. But I have davened in lubavitcher minyanim. As has Chava. So, when you say these things about Chabad (aka Lubavitcher Chasidim) and we go "Say wha?" perhaps that should be a clue that you are spreading false information.

yochanan

[ChavaK]

Uh what? Chabad does Kiruv or Inreach work very well. However Chabad does not perform conversions. Every once in a great while, but very very very very very very rarely. Maybe one out of every 10,000 who approach them. Reform however does do outreach. However Reform Jews wouldn't know a passage of Mishnah from a passage of Zohar.

Yochanan

I have never ever heard of Chabad doing conversions. While they will on
very very rare occasions accept a conversion candidate, they always
refer them to a non-Chabad bet din. They generally try to steer clear
of conversions though; at least that is true with our local Chabad and
several others I have heard of...

[ChavaK]

Now Chabad isn't Orthodox? Or do you mean they aren't Chasidic?

Do you even know the first thing about Chabad Anisavta?

Note, I am not a chabadnik. But I have davened in lubavitcher minyanim. As has Chava. So, when you say these things about Chabad (aka Lubavitcher Chasidim) and we go "Say wha?" perhaps that should be a clue that you are spreading false information.

yochanan

Oh yeah, I am well acquainted with them, I have davened by them 25 plus years, ever since they came to town. We were honored to have the Chabad rabbi say one of the blessings at our wedding....they are good people and
good friends.

[ChavaK]

There are several converts from the christian church who are Ger who have done their conversion thru Chabad. However I don't know of any who have converted thru Orthodox Chasid.

I am confused....Chassids are always Orthodox...or do you mean
other groups of Chassids don't accept converts? Which isn't true,
I can assure you...

[Torah613]

Ok so at least I am not the only one severely confused by that statement.

Chasidim are always Orthodox, and no Orthodox Jew distinguishes between a halachicallly converted Jew and a halachically born Jew. A Jew is a Jew.

Yochanan

[ContraMundum]

Note, I am not a chabadnik. But I have davened in lubavitcher minyanim. As has Chava.

I have never heard of Lubavitchers having women in a minyan. I was taught that women are exempt from minyanim (I know some will say that such an exemption has exceptions, but you get my drift etc.) What about kavod ha-tzibbur? Are there no men available over there anymore? Have I mis-interpreted you here?

[ChavaK]

I have never heard of Lubavitchers having women in a minyan. I was taught that women are exempt from minyanim (I know some will say that such an exemption has exceptions, but you get my drift etc.) What about kavod ha-tzibbur? Are there no men available over there anymore? Have I mis-interpreted you here?




No, Chabd definitely don't count women in a minyan. I think he meant
he davens with a Chabad minyan from time to time, and while I daven
with Chabad on shabbas and yom tov, I am definitely not part of a
minyan. It was just poorly worded.

[anisavta]

And that havarim is why I am here trying to learn from meaningful dialog and discussion. As in these last few posts there seems to have been some confusion, I would like to know what is true and what is hear say or false information. If you talk to a Reform you get different info from an Orthodox or a Chasid.
We have two chabad. One is relatively new and in a new development outside of my city.

[kivi]

There are several converts from the christian church who are Ger who have done their conversion thru Chabad. However I don't know of any who have converted thru Orthodox Chasid.

kivi says: Would you care to be more clear as to your definitions of CHABAD or Orthodox Chasidic? I know of no one who converted thourgh CHABAD. I know people who have tried and they have all been refused and had to do it some other way. 'Chasid' is an over-arching, generic definition of many groups within Orthodoxy, of which CHABAD is the most famous in the general public. So, to say that some people converted though CHABAD, which is part of the Chasidic movement, but not through 'Orthodox Chasid', is logically impossible. Also to say 'Orthodox Chasid' is to be redundent. By definition, Chasid is Orthodox.

It is this type of confusion within the Christian community that I try to address, directly. That is why I am here. How can you talk about Orthodox Judaism if you don't know the simple facts about how it works? If an Anglican came up to me and started talking about the problems within the Anglican Communion and I started telling him that he had it all wrong, I would be a fool. I have to assume that he knows more about his religion than I do. And I trust him to tell me the truth. I know I do when I talk to CM, even though I have a background as a practicing Anglican. The same with Orthodox Judaism. Over and over, again, we try to share some simple facts about Juadism and how it works. And Christian members of this forum [and others] agrue with us, as if we don't know our own religion. It is totally weird. We never ask that the Christians members agree. That is not what we are trying to do. All we are asking is that they get their facts right about us. At least disagree with what we really are like rather than what you think we are like. I promise you, they are not the same.

[kivi]

I have never heard of Lubavitchers having women in a minyan. I was taught that women are exempt from minyanim (I know some will say that such an exemption has exceptions, but you get my drift etc.) What about kavod ha-tzibbur? Are there no men available over there anymore? Have I mis-interpreted you here?




dear CM, I think we have two different defintions of 'minyon' going on here that seem to be in conflict. There is the '10 men' definition [which is what you are refering to] and then there is the minyon as a more generic idea, 'the congregation', including the women and children. I know, when I started in Observant Judaism, I was part of a small 'house' group of Orthodox Jews who called the congregation they had started 'The Minyon'. :thumbsup: luv ya

[kivi]

And that havarim is why I am here trying to learn from meaningful dialog and discussion. As in these last few posts there seems to have been some confusion, I would like to know what is true and what is hear say or false information. If you talk to a Reform you get different info from an Orthodox or a Chasid.
We have two chabad. One is relatively new and in a new development outside of my city.

kivi says: That is why I always remind the people that I am sharing with that I speak only out of the Orthodox/Pharisaic Tradition. If you are interested in Reform or Conservative, then you have to talk to them.

Orthodox or Chasid are not exclusive categories. Chasid is part of Orthodox. Orthodox is the over over over arching category of the Torah True Tradition from Moses to the present. All Orthodox groups, Chasid or Mishnagdim, Ashkanaz or Sephard fit within Orthodoxy.

[Torah613]

No, Chabd definitely don't count women in a minyan. I think he meant
he davens with a Chabad minyan from time to time, and while I daven
with Chabad on shabbas and yom tov, I am definitely not part of a
minyan. It was just poorly worded.

nail on head. Thank you for explaining my very late night dementia.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

I have never heard of Lubavitchers having women in a minyan. I was taught that women are exempt from minyanim (I know some will say that such an exemption has exceptions, but you get my drift etc.) What about kavod ha-tzibbur? Are there no men available over there anymore? Have I mis-interpreted you here?




Ok, First of all C"S that chabad would start counting women for teh minyan.

To explain. I have davened with chabad minyanim upon occasion (and was counted). Chava davens upon occasion with a chabad minyan, but is not counted as a woman.

am i making any sense? Haven't had coffee yet....

Yochanan

[ChavaK]

kivi says: Would you care to be more clear as to your definitions of CHABAD or Orthodox Chasidic? I know of no one who converted thourgh CHABAD. I know people who have tried and they have all been refused and had to do it some other way.

I agree....I know Chabad rabbis will sponsor gerim, but they never
do they actual conversion. They are referred out to a bet din
that is not part of Chabad.

And I don't think it is that common....of the 25 years I have been
associated with Chabad, I know of only 4 people they sponsored for
conversion...

[Torah613]

And that havarim is why I am here trying to learn from meaningful dialog and discussion. As in these last few posts there seems to have been some confusion, I would like to know what is true and what is hear say or false information. If you talk to a Reform you get different info from an Orthodox or a Chasid.
We have two chabad. One is relatively new and in a new development outside of my city.

As Ive said before, reform Jews aren't likely to know the Mishnah from the Zohar. If you want information on Orthodox Judaism, why not ask those of us here who self-identify as frum?

And if you want info on Chasidism (one branch of the Orthodox movement) why not ask those of us who identify ourselves as such with custom user titles such as "Your friendly neighborhood chasid."

Chabad is Chasidic, and chasidic is Orthodox. However, not all Orthodox Jews are chasidic, and not all chasidim are chabadniks.

Yochanan

[kivi]

As Ive said before, reform Jews aren't likely to know the Mishnah from the Zohar. If you want information on Orthodox Judaism, why not ask those of us here who self-identify as frum?

And if you want info on Chasidism (one branch of the Orthodox movement) why not ask those of us who identify ourselves as such with custom user titles such as "Your friendly neighborhood chasid."

Chabad is Chasidic, and chasidic is Orthodox. However, not all Orthodox Jews are chasidic, and not all chasidim are chabadniks.

Yochanan

kivi says: Quick and dirty run-down of Orthodoxy

I: Orthodoxy: Torah True Traditon, from the Pharisees.
A: Sepharid [mediterranean/mid eastern/spanish>now almost all relocated to Israel]
B: Ashkjenaz [northern european>most destroyed in WWII, remainders in the US and Israel]
1: Chasidim [more emotional/mystical]>organized around the personal following of a rebbe {teacher/spiritual leader}, founded in and about 1730 by the Baal Shem Tov as reaction to mishnagdim [see below]; many different groups have arisen since, all originally disciples of the BST, CHABAD the most famous in the non-Jewish community]
2: Mishnagdim [more scholarly/academic/non-emotional: mishnag means 'oppostion' to the growth of chasid.] The orthodox of the Jewish community at the time of the found of chasidism, mishnagdim had orginally been a reaction to the heresy of extremely emotional Sabbatarism which had almost destroyed the Jewish community + one hundred years before.

I'm mishnagdim.

[ContraMundum]

dear CM, I think we have two different defintions of 'minyon' going on here that seem to be in conflict. There is the '10 men' definition [which is what you are refering to] and then there is the minyon as a more generic idea, 'the congregation', including the women and children. I know, when I started in Observant Judaism, I was part of a small 'house' group of Orthodox Jews who called the congregation they had started 'The Minyon'. :thumbsup: luv ya

Thank you, I was of course referring to the "10 men" minyan. One of my relatives is part of a "house" minyan too.


Ok, First of all C"S that chabad would start counting women for teh minyan.

To explain. I have davened with chabad minyanim upon occasion (and was counted). Chava davens upon occasion with a chabad minyan, but is not counted as a woman.

am i making any sense? Haven't had coffee yet....

Yochanan

Yep, I got it. Get your coffee my brother! One cannot engage the brain without it. I know from experience. :)

[Torah613]

kivi says: Quick and dirty run-down of Orthodoxy

I: Orthodoxy: Torah True Traditon, from the Pharisees.
A: Sepharid [mediterranean/mid eastern/spanish>now almost all relocated to Israel]
B: Ashkjenaz [northern european>most destroyed in WWII, remainders in the US and Israel]
1: Chasidim [more emotional/mystical]>organized around the personal following of a rebbe {teacher/spiritual leader}, founded in and about 1730 by the Baal Shem Tov as reaction to mishnagdim [see below]; many different groups have arisen since, all originally disciples of the BST, CHABAD the most famous in the non-Jewish community]
2: Mishnagdim [more scholarly/academic/non-emotional: mishnag means 'oppostion' to the growth of chasid.] The orthodox of the Jewish community at the time of the found of chasidism, mishnagdim had orginally been a reaction to the heresy of extremely emotional Sabbatarism which had almost destroyed the Jewish community + one hundred years before.

I'm mishnagdim.

excellent rundown. Of course it shoudl be noted that there is that the mishnagadim and chasidim cooperate alot more today, particularly in the haredi neighborhoods of EY.

yochanan