Could Fear Be The Motivator?

[Optimax]

Could fear be the motivator for those that so intensely fight against WOF beliefs?

The fear of being held responsible for their own status in life.

The fear of "If I tried it and failed, what would I look like"?

The fear of being accountable for what scripture says that they deny and call heresy?

The fear of hearing " Faith was explained to you in great detail over and over and you chose not to hear".

Thank God the fear won't keep them out of heaven.

Could it be fear?

[JimfromOhio]

Could fear be the motivator for those that so intensely fight against WOF beliefs?

The fear of being held responsible for their own status in life.

The fear of "If I tried it and failed, what would I look like"?

The fear of being accountable for what scripture says that they deny and call heresy?

The fear of hearing " Faith was explained to you in great detail over and over and you chose not to hear".

Thank God the fear won't keep them out of heaven.

Could it be fear?
Flesh Faith produces fear and basically makes people work harder on their spiritual growth without involving grace. Faith doctrines are bound to confront unexpected challenges that will strike us with the fear of the unknown. The fear generated by bad theologies was a problem that people faced in Jesus’ day (Pharisees) as today’s Christians with bad theologies. When people are teaching doctrines wrongly, fear is created. Certain doctrines have planted false fear throughout Christian history. Worst case scenerio, fear of something would happen is always often in everyone's mind.

We are not to have faith in faith but rather Faith in Jesus has replaces our temporal doubts and fears with eternal hope.

[~RENEE~]

I think it's religious pride. Something don't sit well with their man made religion they then don't like it.

[JimfromOhio]

I think it's religious pride. Something don't sit well with their man made religion they then don't like it.
During the time Jesus' ministry, He faced religion that He disagreed for obvious reasons. The scribes and Pharisees declare, "When we speak, God agrees." For they are always, in their own view, infallible of they expected from their followers. Pharisees' attitudes are those who magnifies the faults of those who based others on appearance and diminishes their graces, while they promote their external works.

Scribes and Pharisees had all the right stuff in terms of the Old Testament and Christ had no problem with "most of their doctrines". Jesus made people notice that the religious Pharisees to a group of dishwashers who clean the outside of a cup while leaving the inside dirty. He said, "Now you Pharisees make the outside of the cup and dish clean, but your inward part is full of greed and wickedness. Foolish ones! Did not He who made the outside make the inside also?" (Luke 11:39-40).

Jesus also said in Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

The Scribes and Pharisees were guilty of bibliolatry and they did highly honor the words of Scripture (Old Testament). They knew the Book and so tragic that the knowing the words of the Book, knew not its Author. "You know neither me nor my Father," pronounced Jesus. For example, to know the precepts, but not the living God.

[ARBITER01]

Could fear be the motivator for those that so intensely fight against WOF beliefs?

The fear of being held responsible for their own status in life.

The fear of "If I tried it and failed, what would I look like"?

The fear of being accountable for what scripture says that they deny and call heresy?

The fear of hearing " Faith was explained to you in great detail over and over and you chose not to hear".

Thank God the fear won't keep them out of heaven.

Could it be fear?


No.

[Faithful Love]

When it is up to man, we know we can always fail - look at the first man.

However, once we know WHOM we serve and that it is a pleasure TO DO His will (even though many erroneously call that works), there is no longer any fear!:kiss:


Praise God. He is so good, He tells us EXACTLY what we MUST DO to walk in His ways!


Perfect love casts out all fear!:cool:


IF you love me, keep my commands!

[~RENEE~]

During the time Jesus' ministry, He faced religion that He disagreed for obvious reasons. The scribes and Pharisees declare, "When we speak, God agrees." For they are always, in their own view, infallible of they expected from their followers. Pharisees' attitudes are those who magnifies the faults of those who based others on appearance and diminishes their graces, while they promote their external works.

Scribes and Pharisees had all the right stuff in terms of the Old Testament and Christ had no problem with "most of their doctrines". Jesus made people notice that the religious Pharisees to a group of dishwashers who clean the outside of a cup while leaving the inside dirty. He said, "Now you Pharisees make the outside of the cup and dish clean, but your inward part is full of greed and wickedness. Foolish ones! Did not He who made the outside make the inside also?" (Luke 11:39-40).

Jesus also said in Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

The Scribes and Pharisees were guilty of bibliolatry and they did highly honor the words of Scripture (Old Testament). They knew the Book and so tragic that the knowing the words of the Book, knew not its Author. "You know neither me nor my Father," pronounced Jesus. For example, to know the precepts, but not the living God.And here is the scribe and pharisee. For being WOF post. I love it.

[JimfromOhio]

And here is the scribe and pharisee. For being WOF post. I love it.
Yep.. depends on a person's perspective. :D

[ARBITER01]

During the time Jesus' ministry, He faced religion that He disagreed for obvious reasons. The scribes and Pharisees declare, "When we speak, God agrees." For they are always, in their own view, infallible of they expected from their followers. Pharisees' attitudes are those who magnifies the faults of those who based others on appearance and diminishes their graces, while they promote their external works.

Scribes and Pharisees had all the right stuff in terms of the Old Testament and Christ had no problem with "most of their doctrines". Jesus made people notice that the religious Pharisees to a group of dishwashers who clean the outside of a cup while leaving the inside dirty. He said, "Now you Pharisees make the outside of the cup and dish clean, but your inward part is full of greed and wickedness. Foolish ones! Did not He who made the outside make the inside also?" (Luke 11:39-40).

Jesus also said in Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

The Scribes and Pharisees were guilty of bibliolatry and they did highly honor the words of Scripture (Old Testament). They knew the Book and so tragic that the knowing the words of the Book, knew not its Author. "You know neither me nor my Father," pronounced Jesus. For example, to know the precepts, but not the living God.

Very good post, especially the last paragraph. If there is an identified problem with WOF, bibiolatry would be it.

Jesus cast people out and said: "Depart from Me, I never knew you." Anyone who doesn't know GOD personally, outside of the bible, will not make it.

[~RENEE~]

During the time Jesus' ministry, He faced religion that He disagreed for obvious reasons. The scribes and Pharisees declare, "When we speak, God agrees." For they are always, in their own view, infallible of they expected from their followers. Pharisees' attitudes are those who magnifies the faults of those who based others on appearance and diminishes their graces, while they promote their external works.

Scribes and Pharisees had all the right stuff in terms of the Old Testament and Christ had no problem with "most of their doctrines". Jesus made people notice that the religious Pharisees to a group of dishwashers who clean the outside of a cup while leaving the inside dirty. He said, "Now you Pharisees make the outside of the cup and dish clean, but your inward part is full of greed and wickedness. Foolish ones! Did not He who made the outside make the inside also?" (Luke 11:39-40).

Jesus also said in Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

The Scribes and Pharisees were guilty of bibliolatry and they did highly honor the words of Scripture (Old Testament). They knew the Book and so tragic that the knowing the words of the Book, knew not its Author. "You know neither me nor my Father," pronounced Jesus. For example, to know the precepts, but not the living God.Now admit it Jim. If one of us was to post something like this against you. You would report us in a heartbeat.

[pinetree]

Could fear be the motivator for those that so intensely fight against WOF beliefs?

The fear of being held responsible for their own status in life.

The fear of "If I tried it and failed, what would I look like"?

The fear of being accountable for what scripture says that they deny and call heresy?

The fear of hearing " Faith was explained to you in great detail over and over and you chose not to hear".

Thank God the fear won't keep them out of heaven.

Could it be fear?
ya know bro..

when I read this post,all I see is self depedency,and thefore no grace.See how the post is all about self...

Where is the depedency on God in the questions.

Do you ask yourself this checklist? I hope you dont friend...:)

[NorrinRadd]

Could fear be the motivator for those that so intensely fight against WOF beliefs?

The fear of being held responsible for their own status in life.

The fear of "If I tried it and failed, what would I look like"?

The fear of being accountable for what scripture says that they deny and call heresy?

The fear of hearing " Faith was explained to you in great detail over and over and you chose not to hear".

Thank God the fear won't keep them out of heaven.

Could it be fear?

I think it's religious pride. Something don't sit well with their man made religion they then don't like it.

Could it possibly be that we just plainly don't see Scripture saying what you claim it says, and that WE perceive YOUR religion to be "man made" and prideful?

Nah, couldn't be. :doh:

[JimfromOhio]

Now admit it Jim. If one of us was to post something like this against you. You would report us in a heartbeat.
Reporting changes nothing so I don't. :wave: But, it would not surprise me if some of you do and I am sure I have been reported.

[pinetree]

Could it possibly be that we just plainly don't see Scripture saying what you claim it says, and that WE perceive YOUR religion to be "man made" and prideful?

Nah, couldn't be. :doh:
:D

[Balance]

Could it possibly be that we just plainly don't see Scripture saying what you claim it says, and that WE perceive YOUR religion to be "man made" and prideful?

Nah, couldn't be. :doh:

Oh, I definitely think it could be! And we could say the exact same thing about how you view scripture. We could say we just plainly don't see Scripture saying what you claim is says, and WE perceive YOUR religion to be "man made" and false pride, bringing people back into bondage and a works mentality.

IMHO - It's easy to criticize who you do not agree with, it takes maturity to debate the topic and if not conclusion is brought, then agree to disagree.

I think what a whole lot of the Calvary Chapel, teaching is pure dog doo, but I don't open hundreds of threads talking about it.

I think that a whole lot of the Vineyard teachings we see on here is false and erroneous, but I don't open hundreds of threads talking about it.

I think the self appointed watchmen on CF are benefiting satan more than they are benefiting God, by causing and promoting division - but I don't open hundreds of threads about it.

I think people who criticize everything outside their narrow vision of what they think God is like, and some don't even attend a church, are victims of bad teaching - but I don't open hundreds of threads about it.

Catch my drift?

[pdudgeon]

Could it possibly be that we just plainly don't see Scripture saying what you claim it says, and that WE perceive YOUR religion to be "man made" and prideful?

Nah, couldn't be. :doh:


actualy i think you've hit the nail on the head here as to why WOF and non-WOF disagree.
now what keeps them in disagreement instead of working to find understanding is another matter entirely.;)

[map4]

Oh, I definitely think it could be! And we could say the exact same thing about how you view scripture. We could say we just plainly don't see Scripture saying what you claim is says, and WE perceive YOUR religion to be "man made" and false pride, bringing people back into bondage and a works mentality.

IMHO - It's easy to criticize who you do not agree with, it takes maturity to debate the topic and if not conclusion is brought, then agree to disagree.

I think what a whole lot of the Calvary Chapel, teaching is pure dog doo, but I don't open hundreds of threads talking about it.

I think that a whole lot of the Vineyard teachings we see on here is false and erroneous, but I don't open hundreds of threads talking about it.

I think the self appointed watchmen on CF are benefiting satan more than they are benefiting God, by causing and promoting division - but I don't open hundreds of threads about it.

I think people who criticize everything outside their narrow vision of what they think God is like, and some don't even attend a church, are victims of bad teaching - but I don't open hundreds of threads about it.

Catch my drift?




Nice post.

[NorrinRadd]

... - but I don't open hundreds of threads about it.

Catch my drift?



I can't really comment on that aspect. I don't "open" many threads on any topic, WoF or otherwise; by nature, I'm much more a "responder" or "contributor."

[Optimax]

ya know bro..

when I read this post,all I see is self depedency,and thefore no grace.See how the post is all about self...

Where is the depedency on God in the questions.

Do you ask yourself this checklist? I hope you dont friend...:)

Read my "major fact" thread.

[Optimax]

Could it possibly be that we just plainly don't see Scripture saying what you claim it says, and that WE perceive YOUR religion to be "man made" and prideful?

Nah, couldn't be. :doh:


We see it not as a religion. A religion is man trying to reach up to God.

We see it as a relationship. A relationship with Father God thru Jesus Christ.

A relationship with the Father that puts us totally dependent on Him.

[GrapeGirl]

Oh, I definitely think it could be! And we could say the exact same thing about how you view scripture. We could say we just plainly don't see Scripture saying what you claim is says, and WE perceive YOUR religion to be "man made" and false pride, bringing people back into bondage and a works mentality.

IMHO - It's easy to criticize who you do not agree with, it takes maturity to debate the topic and if not conclusion is brought, then agree to disagree.

I think what a whole lot of the Calvary Chapel, teaching is pure dog doo, but I don't open hundreds of threads talking about it.

I think that a whole lot of the Vineyard teachings we see on here is false and erroneous, but I don't open hundreds of threads talking about it.

I think the self appointed watchmen on CF are benefiting satan more than they are benefiting God, by causing and promoting division - but I don't open hundreds of threads about it.

I think people who criticize everything outside their narrow vision of what they think God is like, and some don't even attend a church, are victims of bad teaching - but I don't open hundreds of threads about it.

Catch my drift?




Certainly makes me wonder what you DO believe....

[probinson]

Certainly makes me wonder what you DO believe....
It would be near impossible for me to explain what I DO believe, because as soon as I post my belief, some more "enlightened" individual will come obfuscate what I said and tell me that I don't really believe what I just said.

Just think about that. Imagine every time you said something, someone would say, "That's not what you really believe". It's frustrating. And you learn quickly who is looking for an argument, and who is actually sincere. Unfortunately, those that are looking for an argument FAR out number those that are sincere.

If I may share something, just as an example...

When I first dove into these debates, I would often make a point to say that the non-WoF crowd believed that God was a "child-abuser". It was extremely emotionally charged rhetoric, that no one really actually believed, but it sure did help my argument sound more serious.

Until one day, God said to me, "Do you really think those people on CF believe that I'm a child-abuser." To which I reluctantly admitted, no, I did not think that. "But God!", I said, "It sure SEEMS that way sometimes!". And He Lovingly said to me, "You know in your heart you are bearing false witness against those you disagree with every time you say that. Stop it."

So, I adjusted how I was posting. No longer could I post about how some people viewed God as a "child-abusing" God, because I knew darn right well that NO ONE believed that, and I was actually lying about them to say such a thing, no matter how it may "seem". And so, I stopped saying that.

I tell you this as only one personal example, to show you that we all need to examine ourselves, and what we say. I was bearing false witness against my brothers and sisters in Christ nearly every day, and God dealt with me and said, "Enough."

But most people don't have a problem with that. Why, just today we had someone say that if we didn't affirm everything that a poster said as true, that we were only kidding ourselves about WoF. That's not honest debate, and you'll never make any progress, at all, like that. How can you, when you're told what you said isn't what you mean?

This isn't directed at you, GG, I just had to vent and you were the lucky one I quoted ;). I fully expect someone to come tear this post apart any moment now, but I wanted to post some of my thoughts.

[GrapeGirl]

It's all good. I know you weren't directing your vent at me. But I am curious, so if you would rather pm me or email me to continue this discussion, that would be cool. You seem to be a pretty rational, logical thinking person (most of the time). ;)

[ARBITER01]

It would be near impossible for me to explain what I DO believe, because as soon as I post my belief, some more "enlightened" individual will come obfuscate what I said and tell me that I don't really believe what I just said.

Just think about that. Imagine every time you said something, someone would say, "That's not what you really believe". It's frustrating. And you learn quickly who is looking for an argument, and who is actually sincere. Unfortunately, those that are looking for an argument FAR out number those that are sincere.

It isn't something new Pete.

Sorry to inform you, but Pentecostals have their background and extremes over the years thrown at them also, as well as Catholics and others. Your defense will not slacken, and you can blame those extreme individuals of WOF for their unrighteous words and deeds.

[probinson]

It isn't something new Pete.

Sorry to inform you, but Pentecostals have their background and extremes over the years thrown at them also, as well as Catholics and others. Your defense will not slacken, and you can blame those extreme individuals of WOF for their unrighteous words and deeds.
Or the problem could be those who can't see past the stereotypes and choose to judge the majority by the actions of the few.

Possibly?

And I know this is not a unique problem to WoF, but WoF seems to be the topic of choice at the moment.

:cool:

[probinson]

It's all good. I know you weren't directing your vent at me. But I am curious, so if you would rather pm me or email me to continue this discussion, that would be cool. You seem to be a pretty rational, logical thinking person (most of the time). ;)

I sure can do that if you'd like me to. :cool:

I think I may have a PM archived somewhere that I sent another sincere person who wanted to know what I really believed. Lemme see if I can find it...

[ARBITER01]

Or the problem could be those who can't see past the stereotypes and choose to judge the majority by the actions of the few.

Possibly?

And I know this is not a unique problem to WoF, but WoF seems to be the topic of choice at the moment.

:cool:

It is guilt by association. I dealt with it also when I considered myself Pentecostal.

When GOD wanted me to come out of that, I begin to grow past the faults I was always slightly uncomfortable with anyways. Never know, GOD can do that with anyone.

[NorrinRadd]

We see it not as a religion. A religion is man trying to reach up to God.

We see it as a relationship. A relationship with Father God thru Jesus Christ.

A relationship with the Father that puts us totally dependent on Him.

Sure. And we would say the same of ourselves. And yet one of "you" -- the one to whom I was replying in the message you quoted -- used the terms "religious pride" and "man-made religion" in reference to "our" beliefs.

So apparently, when it applies to "you," it is "relationship," but when it applies to "us," such cannot possibly be the case. "We" have something "man-made."

[NorrinRadd]

It would be near impossible for me to explain what I DO believe, because as soon as I post my belief, some more "enlightened" individual will come obfuscate what I said and tell me that I don't really believe what I just said.

Just think about that. Imagine every time you said something, someone would say, "That's not what you really believe". It's frustrating. And you learn quickly who is looking for an argument, and who is actually sincere. Unfortunately, those that are looking for an argument FAR out number those that are sincere. ...

Why, just today we had someone say that if we didn't affirm everything that a poster said as true, that we were only kidding ourselves about WoF. That's not honest debate, and you'll never make any progress, at all, like that. How can you, when you're told what you said isn't what you mean? ...

This is sort of akin to something that bothers me, and I'm really not sure how to get past it or work around it:

I have perceptions of WoF based on about a decade of WoF church experience (attending one, visiting several others where friends of mine were regulars), and on reading (and re-reading) scores of books and listening to dozens of tapes by several different "Faith" preachers and teachers.

And yet it's not uncommon for me to hear that WoF doesn't "really" teach what I think it does.

[Tenebrae]

Could fear be the motivator for those that so intensely fight against WOF beliefs?

The fear of being held responsible for their own status in life.

The fear of "If I tried it and failed, what would I look like"?

The fear of being accountable for what scripture says that they deny and call heresy?

The fear of hearing " Faith was explained to you in great detail over and over and you chose not to hear".

Thank God the fear won't keep them out of heaven.

Could it be fear?

No


I take total responsibility for my own situation and the choices that I have made and continue to make, which incidentally has improved out of sight since I left my former WoF church.

Since leaving Wof, I've come into a fuller understanding of God and His nature and the fact that there is nothing absolutely nothing that I can do to bridge the gap between myself and God, and that He did it, because He holds me in such high regard. I do stuff as I work out my walk with Him, not because I'm trying to earn my way into heaven

[Jimbeaux]

Could fear be the motivator for those that so intensely fight against WOF beliefs?

The fear of being held responsible for their own status in life.

The fear of "If I tried it and failed, what would I look like"?

The fear of being accountable for what scripture says that they deny and call heresy?

The fear of hearing " Faith was explained to you in great detail over and over and you chose not to hear".

Thank God the fear won't keep them out of heaven.

Could it be fear?
^_^

Who’s afraid of the big bad WOF, Optimax?

I think the fear (anxiety) is on the other side. When people are taught that to be healed all they need is faith and they remain sick, they fear that they are faithless.

When they are taught by their favorite bazillionaire celebrity TV preacher that to be wealthy, too, all they need is faith (not mention a mailing list of 600,000 gullible people), and still they remain broke, they fear they do not have faith.

And all these poor floundering people get when they ask why they are sick and broke is, “I cannot tell you (apart from you not having faith) why God would allow you to stay sick and broke--all I can tell you is you are not supposed to be.” First, WOF has all the answers … until it fails to work … then they have no answers. They just leave their victims to worry.

And they call this “truth.”

Of all the doctrines of men that I know, the easiest to shoot holes in is WOF. Life and scripture disprove it on so many fronts.

~Jim

The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.

[FoundInGrace]

Could fear be the motivator for those that so intensely fight against WOF beliefs?

The fear of being held responsible for their own status in life.

The fear of "If I tried it and failed, what would I look like"?

The fear of being accountable for what scripture says that they deny and call heresy?

The fear of hearing " Faith was explained to you in great detail over and over and you chose not to hear".

Thank God the fear won't keep them out of heaven.

Could it be fear?


nope

[JimfromOhio]

^_^

Who’s afraid of the big bad WOF, Optimax?

I think the fear (anxiety) is on the other side. When people are taught that to be healed all they need is faith and they remain sick, they fear that they are faithless.

When they are taught by their favorite bazillionaire celebrity TV preacher that to be wealthy, too, all they need is faith (not mention a mailing list of 600,000 gullible people), and still they remain broke, they fear they do not have faith.

And all these poor floundering people get when they ask why they are sick and broke is, “I cannot tell you (apart from you not having faith) why God would allow you to stay sick and broke--all I can tell you is you are not supposed to be.” First, WOF has all the answers … until it fails to work … then they have no answers. They just leave their victims to worry.

And they call this “truth.”

Of all the doctrines of men that I know, the easiest to shoot holes in is WOF. Life and scripture disprove it on so many fronts.

~Jim


The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.


Yes, that's pretty much summarized the whole point.

I am not afraid of WOF but I fear God. Blessed is the man who fears the LORD, who finds great delight in his commands. We should know the power of God's and His wrath is as great as the fear that is due us at any time (Psalm 90:11).

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge.

Proverbs 18:15 The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge; the ears of the wise seek it out.

1 John 4:1 (NIV) Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

[Optimax]

^_^

Who’s afraid of the big bad WOF, Optimax?

I think the fear (anxiety) is on the other side. When people are taught that to be healed all they need is faith and they remain sick, they fear that they are faithless.

When they are taught by their favorite bazillionaire celebrity TV preacher that to be wealthy, too, all they need is faith (not mention a mailing list of 600,000 gullible people), and still they remain broke, they fear they do not have faith.

And all these poor floundering people get when they ask why they are sick and broke is, “I cannot tell you (apart from you not having faith) why God would allow you to stay sick and broke--all I can tell you is you are not supposed to be.” First, WOF has all the answers … until it fails to work … then they have no answers. They just leave their victims to worry.

And they call this “truth.”

Of all the doctrines of men that I know, the easiest to shoot holes in is WOF. Life and scripture disprove it on so many fronts.

~Jim

The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.


Jim:

The way you prove to yourself the error of your statements is to spend time learning what WOF actually teaches about finances and healing.

I have not been on this forum that long but in that time it is obvious you hold great animosity against WOF.

It is also evident that you did not "hear" the entirety of what is taught.
If you had you would not be wasting so much of your time fighting.

[LeadWorship]

The OP wasn't addressing whether you are afraid of "WoF" or not.