Learning Customs

[Heart of a Seeker]

Hi everyone! I've been here before, but as I've been reading some of the threads here, I get a little confused.

Do the true Jewish people not like us grafted in ones learning more about Jewish customs?

I was raised Lutheran and have been Pentecostal for over 30 years. I am sincerely interested in the customs and worship of the Jewish people. I want to know more.

My husband and I have started observing Sabbath from sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday. We are learning how far away from the original customs of Jesus we have gotten.

I know that in some Pentecostal/Charismatic churches, these customs are viewed as 'legalism'. Can anyone explain how the customs AREN'T legalism?

Also, do Messianic Jews celebrate Christmas and Easter along with Hannukah and Passover?

Thanks and God bless!

[Steve Petersen]

My husband and I have started observing Sabbath from sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday. We are learning how far away from the original customs of Jesus we have gotten.

I know that in some Pentecostal/Charismatic churches, these customs are viewed as 'legalism'. Can anyone explain how the customs AREN'T legalism?

Hi. Welcome to the forum.

Most Messianics here see it as an act of discipleship. Imitation of the Master. Paul encouraged his congregations to imitate him as he imitated Christ.

Also, do Messianic Jews celebrate Christmas and Easter along with Hannukah and Passover?

Some in the movement do. I would venture a guess that most Messianics here don't.

[Kris10leigh]

Also, do Messianic Jews celebrate Christmas and Easter along with Hannukah and Passover?


My family does. I'm happy to celebrate Christmas, but not so happy with Easter. I have a hard time with Easter every year and have for some time, but my family isn't ready to give it up.

[anisavta]

No Christmas and Easter here.
We remember Yeshua's birth at Sukkot and His death and resurrection at Passover.
What do you mean by customs? Like Sabbath and eating kosher?
To me legalism has become like fingernails on a chalkboard. I'm finding any time someone does not want to face the fact that G~d's Word and His commands have not changed they use the legalism argument.

[Torah613]

Just so its clear, I think its great your curious about our customs. However, I don't think you as a gentile should observe them. Most of the commandments were given specifically (and its spelled out this way in Torah) to Am Yisrail (the children of Israel). So when we see people who aren't Jewish wearing tzitzis with no kippah at treif pizza place it offends us greatly. Believe it or not that problem comes up alot.

These specific commandments are given to Israel as a perpetual reminder of our covenant with HaShem. The ones specifically for this are the saying of the Shema, the wearing Tzitzis, the wearing of tallis for married men, donning tefilin, and observing shabbos.

Now when you say you "observe" shabbos what exactly do you mean by that? It is actually a very complicated halachic matter. for Jews there are 39 specific categories of work that are forbidden. ARe you saying you observe by this standard, or that you pray extra and rest on that day?

Now, to legalism. That is a charge that gets thrown about alot, and its 100% false. If anyone knows the first thing about Judaism they know this. Jews have a very deep, personal relationship with HaShem. This is particular true of the more Orthodox movements. Jews simply operate in an entirely different paradigm than chr*stians do. We think in entirely different ways than chr*Stians do. I would attempt to explain how the mitzvoth fit into all this, but you are not Jewish and I don't want to in any way encourage you to keep the mitzvoth, as according to Torah it is damaging to a gentile's soul to keep the mitzvoth intended by HaShem for Israel.

Yochanan

[Tishri1]

Hi everyone! I've been here before, but as I've been reading some of the threads here, I get a little confused.

Do the true Jewish people not like us grafted in ones learning more about Jewish customs?

I was raised Lutheran and have been Pentecostal for over 30 years. I am sincerely interested in the customs and worship of the Jewish people. I want to know more.

My husband and I have started observing Sabbath from sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday. We are learning how far away from the original customs of Jesus we have gotten.

I know that in some Pentecostal/Charismatic churches, these customs are viewed as 'legalism'. Can anyone explain how the customs AREN'T legalism?the freest you can possibly be is when you are following Abba with all your heart so its something you will have to explain to people as you yourself experience it more....I know when I was talking about what THEY had to do to please ABBA I got that legalism card thrown at me more but over the years as I stopped pushing them out there and just focused on me I seem to have more who want this life than reject it....Im sure you have been there too as we all have

Also, do Messianic Jews celebrate Christmas and Easter along with Hannukah and Passover?

Thanks and God bless!for over ten years I didnt but this last year I did add back both for fellowship reasons

[cyberlizard]

Just so its clear, I think its great your curious about our customs. However, I don't think you as a gentile should observe them. Most of the commandments were given specifically (and its spelled out this way in Torah) to Am Yisrail (the children of Israel). So when we see people who aren't Jewish wearing tzitzis with no kippah at treif pizza place it offends us greatly. Believe it or not that problem comes up alot.

These specific commandments are given to Israel as a perpetual reminder of our covenant with HaShem. The ones specifically for this are the saying of the Shema, the wearing Tzitzis, the wearing of tallis for married men, donning tefilin, and observing shabbos.

Now when you say you "observe" shabbos what exactly do you mean by that? It is actually a very complicated halachic matter. for Jews there are 39 specific categories of work that are forbidden. ARe you saying you observe by this standard, or that you pray extra and rest on that day?

Now, to legalism. That is a charge that gets thrown about alot, and its 100% false. If anyone knows the first thing about Judaism they know this. Jews have a very deep, personal relationship with HaShem. This is particular true of the more Orthodox movements. Jews simply operate in an entirely different paradigm than chr*stians do. We think in entirely different ways than chr*Stians do. I would attempt to explain how the mitzvoth fit into all this, but you are not Jewish and I don't want to in any way encourage you to keep the mitzvoth, as according to Torah it is damaging to a gentile's soul to keep the mitzvoth intended by HaShem for Israel.

Yochanan

i think it is difficult in many respect for jews who practice particularly the more orthodox branches of their faith to accept non-jews wanting to observe it... after all it was given to them, a covenant for them, the children of faith (at least of Abraham).... Many of these Jews will only accept the belief that all non-jews are required to do is observe the noachide rules.... but this belief has problems for people who believe Jesus to be the Messiah and accept the authority of the apostolic writings....

here's why.... the letter by paul to the church in ephesus (ephesians) says that non-jews who come to faith (that jesus is the Messiah AND HE IS) were once strangers to the covenants of promise (this would be the covenant G-d made with Abraham (circumcision and land grant) and the covenant He made with the children of Israel (outlined in the Torah of Moses - with particular emphasis on the ten words - with shabbat being the sign of the covenant (to some degree)).

But Paul says that we who were born strangers from these covenants (i.e not entitled to share in them) have now by faith become able to share in them. It says we have been brought near... to be brought near is to 'come into'. So in Jesus the Messiah, we now have the right to share in the promise to Abraham (Messiah the fulfilment ) and to Moses (the instructions for a holy life and the crowning Jewel - shabbat).

I am sorry if this offends some Jewish people, but in the messianic age, torah will go forth from zion and all nations will come up....

Steve

p.s. i do not talk about legalism, as like Paul, i believe the torh is holy and its commandments good. It is a tree of life, and you can find life through it (at least in this life).

[HalcyonFire]

having been in a pentacostal church... hahaha... messianic observance legalism... wow... that's funny (like they have alot of room to talk is what I mean)

I think that Jews proper dont' appreciate it... but I think Messianics are fine with it.

[Heart of a Seeker]

Just so its clear, I think its great your curious about our customs. However, I don't think you as a gentile should observe them. Most of the commandments were given specifically (and its spelled out this way in Torah) to Am Yisrail (the children of Israel). So when we see people who aren't Jewish wearing tzitzis with no kippah at treif pizza place it offends us greatly. Believe it or not that problem comes up alot.

These specific commandments are given to Israel as a perpetual reminder of our covenant with HaShem. The ones specifically for this are the saying of the Shema, the wearing Tzitzis, the wearing of tallis for married men, donning tefilin, and observing shabbos.

Now when you say you "observe" shabbos what exactly do you mean by that? It is actually a very complicated halachic matter. for Jews there are 39 specific categories of work that are forbidden. ARe you saying you observe by this standard, or that you pray extra and rest on that day?

Now, to legalism. That is a charge that gets thrown about alot, and its 100% false. If anyone knows the first thing about Judaism they know this. Jews have a very deep, personal relationship with HaShem. This is particular true of the more Orthodox movements. Jews simply operate in an entirely different paradigm than chr*stians do. We think in entirely different ways than chr*Stians do. I would attempt to explain how the mitzvoth fit into all this, but you are not Jewish and I don't want to in any way encourage you to keep the mitzvoth, as according to Torah it is damaging to a gentile's soul to keep the mitzvoth intended by HaShem for Israel.

Yochanan

Very interesting information, but I don't think that God is a respector of persons. We all have come from the same people - maybe different tribes, but eventually we can all trace our roots back to Noah and his sons. Does that make us all 'Jewish'? I think so. Whether we accept that fact or not is up to us.

[Heart of a Seeker]

And we still want to know more and understand more about the customs. God did not bring my husband and I together by accident. We both had this longing in our hearts to know more about the Jewish customs and to observe some of them.

I could be offended if I wasn't such an old lady and you weren't so young. :D I hear in your message a very intelligent young man who knows his customs and heritage very well. But I also sense a critical, judgmental spirit which, as you get older you will learn, doesn't win many to Jesus. The basis of Jesus ministry is love, mercy and grace.

[HalcyonFire]

Yochanan is a Jew in the proper sense. He does not believe Yeshua is Messiah.

[Torah613]

Very interesting information, but I don't think that God is a respector of persons. We all have come from the same people - maybe different tribes, but eventually we can all trace our roots back to Noah and his sons. Does that make us all 'Jewish'? I think so. Whether we accept that fact or not is up to us.

No it doesn't. It, according to Hebrew grammer, makes you a Noachide (descendent of Noach). However, to be a Jew you must be B'nai Yisrail (a descendent of Yaakov). As you know Avraham came quite some time after Noach.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

And we still want to know more and understand more about the customs. God did not bring my husband and I together by accident. We both had this longing in our hearts to know more about the Jewish customs and to observe some of them.

I could be offended if I wasn't such an old lady and you weren't so young. :D I hear in your message a very intelligent young man who knows his customs and heritage very well. But I also sense a critical, judgmental spirit which, as you get older you will learn, doesn't win many to Jesus. The basis of Jesus ministry is love, mercy and grace.

oh my. We seem to have a bit of a confusion here. I don't believe J*sus is Moshiach. I am a torah true, Chasidic, Orthodox Jew. So in short, I'm not really interested in winning people to J*sus, but thank you for the advice anyways.

I am not being judgemental, I am merely saying that the Torah tells us that each nation has a special relationship with HaShem. I think its great you want to learn about our customs. Everyone should be culturally aware. but being a gentile and relishing your own culture is no less special in the eyes of G-d.

And on the shabbos issue, yes it is for Jews only. Exodus chapter 31 vs 16. But, what do you mean by shabbos. Do you mean that in your observance you follow Orthodox Jewish customs? if so, than I would say that is wrong from the standpoint of the Torah. However, if you don't observe like an Orthodox Jew does but rather take it as a day of rest and as your primary day of worship, than thats fine.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

Yochanan is a Jew in the proper sense. He does not believe Yeshua is Messiah.

oops you beat me to it.

Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

oops you beat me to it.

Yochanan
I really do try Yochanan. Honest.

[zaksmummy]

I know that in some Pentecostal/Charismatic churches, these customs are viewed as 'legalism'. Can anyone explain how the customs AREN'T legalism?

Also, do Messianic Jews celebrate Christmas and Easter along with Hannukah and Passover?

Thanks and God bless!


They always throw in the "legalism" bit, helps them to justify not having to actually change how they think!

No I'm not having a go at charismatics, I am one, but unfortunately Christians have had a long and antagonistic relationship with the Jewish people of the bible (mostly due to years of bad teaching and as Yochanan said misunderstanding the relationship held between God and his Jewish people).

Anyway, despite that, many of us Gentiles have found that to celebrate Shabbat is a blessing, we started nearly a year ago just taking it as a day of rest, then in January started having a meal on the friday evening, with some liturgy readings - we cant speak Hebrew, so it has to be in english, and we read rather than sing it, although I'd like to sing the blessings, but alas, dont have anyone to teach us so we're stuck with reading. Then we eat Challah bread and drink a bottle of wine, thanking God for his good gifts. I have experimented a lot with the Challah bread, I like to add orange peel, it gives it a lovely taste.

Then we read the Parsha reading for the week, then eat and discuss what we've been reading, or generally discussing what God has been showing us in the last week.

We usually have about 4-6 people come and join us. A couple are Torah observant like us, and the others are interested in being a bit more biblical but arent yet ready to gice up their christian understanding and traditions.

As for the celebrations, we have decided not to celebrate christmas or easter, but celebrate Gods feasts instead. This was not an easy decision on my part, I loved christmas, but I believe that God showed me how much he dislikes having his beautiful gift of faith tainted with paganism, so for me, I had to let it go.

We who have come to this understanding have all been where you are, what I have learned is that God will lead you, and show you what he wants you to do. This forum is a good place to start, and the people here are friendly and will answer questions and help you along the way.

We have also found a Messianic organisations called First Fruits of Zion; www.ffoz.org (http://www.ffoz.org) helpful, they have a lot of resources, and www.graftedin.com (http://www.graftedin.com) have really good podcasts which we really like listening to as well.

Hope this helps.

[Lulav]

Just so its clear, I think its great your curious about our customs. However, I don't think you as a gentile should observe them. Most of the commandments were given specifically (and its spelled out this way in Torah) to Am Yisrail (the children of Israel). So when we see people who aren't Jewish wearing tzitzis with no kippah at treif pizza place it offends us greatly. Believe it or not that problem comes up alot.


Yochanan
So what are you doing in a treif pizzaria in the first place??? :o


:D

[Lulav]

And we still want to know more and understand more about the customs. God did not bring my husband and I together by accident. We both had this longing in our hearts to know more about the Jewish customs and to observe some of them.

I could be offended if I wasn't such an old lady and you weren't so young. :D I hear in your message a very intelligent young man who knows his customs and heritage very well. But I also sense a critical, judgmental spirit which, as you get older you will learn, doesn't win many to Jesus. The basis of Jesus ministry is love, mercy and grace. You say you want to study our customs, but you don't also want to take these upon yourself do you? To study the commandments would be better instead of the customs, customs is something Yeshua got into many a Jewish debate over, emphasizing the importance of G-ds word over any custom or tradition. Study G-ds word, do what he shows you is right to do, but don't take on cultural customs so that it makes you feel closer to him, that is not what is important. :) ( BTW, I am a Jew who believes Yeshua is Messiah. ) :)

Hi everyone! I've been here before, but as I've been reading some of the threads here, I get a little confused.

Do the true Jewish people not like us grafted in ones learning more about Jewish customs?

I was raised Lutheran and have been Pentecostal for over 30 years. I am sincerely interested in the customs and worship of the Jewish people. I want to know more.

My husband and I have started observing Sabbath from sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday. We are learning how far away from the original customs of Jesus we have gotten.

I know that in some Pentecostal/Charismatic churches, these customs are viewed as 'legalism'. Can anyone explain how the customs AREN'T legalism?

Also, do Messianic Jews celebrate Christmas and Easter along with Hannukah and Passover?

Thanks and God bless!you ask if the 'true Jewish people', I am assuming you are referring to Rabbinical Jews? non believing Jews in Yeshua? Please take this in the loving manner intended, to call someone who doesn't believe in Jesus a True Jew , this nullifies those of us who are Jews who do believe in Jesus or Yeshua as Messiah. We still remain Jews, it is those Jews who don't believe in him that don't want us to still be allowed to be called Jews, so I am sure you don't want to side with them against us in this , right?

To answer some of your other questions, customs can't be legalistic. Legalistic means to follow G-ds law. Many Christians believe G-d came down here and decided his law was no longer needed and did away with it. If that is so , then we don't need Messiah, because then we aren't sinners are we? The thing is as Paul says, the law is there to show us how far from G-d we are, and how much we need him, and how we can't do it alone.

As far as the Christian holy days, there are many Messianic Jews who are married to gentiles that do do both, and some who recognize them for what they are and do not.

Those who are more Orthodox believe that Yeshua was born on the first day of what is called the feast of booths, or tabernacles, and in Hebrew, Sukkot. And he was circumcised on the eighth day, the second of the Holy Sabbaths of the holiday. He was sacrificed on Passover, lay in the tomb on the first, second and third of unleavened bread and arose on the third day ( at the end of Shabbat, not Sunday) the feast of firstfruits. All in fulfillment of G-d appointed times, his Holy days, or Holidays.

This is good to learn, and celebrate, as these are G-ds holy days, celebrating his plan of Salvation of reconciliation of man back to G-d.

It is good to learn the truth about these things and to honor them as a believer, no need to take on customs of non believers.

[anisavta]

Very interesting information, but I don't think that God is a respecter of persons. We all have come from the same people - maybe different tribes, but eventually we can all trace our roots back to Noah and his sons. Does that make us all 'Jewish'? I think so. Whether we accept that fact or not is up to us.

No that does not make you Jewish. A Gentile who is a child of the Most High (blessed be He) yes. A descendant of Noah yes. A descendant of Father Abraham? No unless like another poster said, you have a blood connection.
Someone like Torah613 who is Orthodox understands Torah to be both the written and oral and adheres to all of it as best as he can. However someone who is Reform or Reconstructionist feels the Torah is to be individually interpreted and defines Torah differently and Oral Torah usually is not even considered.
Being Jewish is not just knowing the "rules", it is something that is in the depth of the soul.

Yeshua has brought both Jew and Gentile together as far as salvation. We have both partaken of the atoning sacrifice. But Jews are Jews and Gentiles are Gentiles as far as the covenant given to Abraham by HaShem.

[anisavta]

So what are you doing in a treif pizzria in the first place??? :o


:D


http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_19_2.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxmk788OGUS)





http://www.smileycentral.com/sig.jsp?pc=ZSzeb097&pp=ZNxmk788OGUS (http://smiley.smileycentral.com/download/index.jhtml?partner=ZSzeb097_ZNxmk788OGUS&utm_id=7925)

[Heart of a Seeker]

Ok, thank you for the advice and the suggestions.

I guess we will continue searching for where we belong and just keep pressing in to God and His guiding us.

No, I do not think that any traditions that we may be involved in will bring us closer to the Lord. We're saved by faith, not by works. Reading the Bible, prayer, listening to anointed speakers are all things that help us to grow in Him and we are doing that now.

I guess that we just wanted a place where we could fit in. Not being Jewish means we don't fit in the Messianic place either. Neither one of us looked at things this way before. We didn't realize a lot of what's been said here. I think we thought it was like the other 'churches' we attended that you go, you learn, you are blessed by others and try to be a blessing back. We honestly didn't know there were stipulations to being 'part' of the Messianic Jews. I'm really sorry and embarrassed about that.

We had been doing Torah studies and I guess we'll continue with those

With that I'll close..

Thanks again.

[Heart of a Seeker]

And I truly like this answer so much. Thank you.

BTW - at what point does the bloodline cease to be Jewish? To my husband's knowledge - ancestory is traced through the mother's line. The first time a Jewish woman marries a Gentile, are their children still Jewish? In my husband's case, his father was adopted. There is no knowledge of that bloodline. On his mother's side, no practicing Jews for three generations. He is, however, somewhat aghast at the Easter bunny, Santa Claus and Halloween being ok in the Christian community. It is he, as well as myself, who is looking for a reasonable place of worship because accepting these pagan customs and changing the day of the Sabbath, to him, does not show faithfully following the gospels of the Christ.

[jgonz]

There are many many Messianics who are Gentiles... you don't have to be Jewish born to be a Messianic. Most Messianic congregations have more Gentile Believers than Jewish (at this time). I would suggest finding a Messianic congregation near you and checking it out. :)

[Torah613]

So what are you doing in a treif pizzaria in the first place??? :o


:D

Walking by.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

No that does not make you Jewish. A Gentile who is a child of the Most High (blessed be He) yes. A descendant of Noah yes. A descendant of Father Abraham? No unless like another poster said, you have a blood connection.
Someone like Torah613 who is Orthodox understands Torah to be both the written and oral and adheres to all of it as best as he can. However someone who is Reform or Reconstructionist feels the Torah is to be individually interpreted and defines Torah differently and Oral Torah usually is not even considered.
Being Jewish is not just knowing the "rules", it is something that is in the depth of the soul.

Yeshua has brought both Jew and Gentile together as far as salvation. We have both partaken of the atoning sacrifice. But Jews are Jews and Gentiles are Gentiles as far as the covenant given to Abraham by HaShem.

Agreed, exept of course the J*sus part. I would also add that being a goy is no less special in the eyes of G-d.

yochanan

[Torah613]

And I truly like this answer so much. Thank you.

BTW - at what point does the bloodline cease to be Jewish? To my husband's knowledge - ancestory is traced through the mother's line. The first time a Jewish woman marries a Gentile, are their children still Jewish? In my husband's case, his father was adopted. There is no knowledge of that bloodline. On his mother's side, no practicing Jews for three generations. He is, however, somewhat aghast at the Easter bunny, Santa Claus and Halloween being ok in the Christian community. It is he, as well as myself, who is looking for a reasonable place of worship because accepting these pagan customs and changing the day of the Sabbath, to him, does not show faithfully following the gospels of the Christ.

If a Jewish woman marries a Gentile, yes her children are still Jewish. IIRC (and to be truthful, you'd have to check to be sure) but its 5 generations. I could be completely off on that though. However, if a Jewish man marries a non-jewish woman it does not work in reverse. His children are gentile.

Yochanan

[ChavaK]

Does that make us all 'Jewish'? I think so.


Oy, oy, oy.....

oh, and Noah was not Jewish....

[Torah613]

exactly Chava. Not even all the descendents of Avraham are Jewish. Nor all the descendents of Yitzhak. Only the descendents of Yaakov.

Yet everyone, Jews and goyim, are beings created in the image of HaShem. Jews are not better than Gentiles. Jews are not automatically holier than gentiles. Jews are merely chosen. (according to Midrash we were even the last given the opportunity).

This is why I really don't understand why some gentiles have this insatiable need to be Jewish. Sure, learn about our customs--the why of them. Anthropology is a fascinating field of study. I personally enjoy investigating the customs and traditions of other cultures. But why not relish and be proud of the fact that your Irish/Russian/Mexican/Italian/Greek/Indigineous American/etc. Your own culture of birth shoudl be a great source of pride.

Yochanan

[ChavaK]

BTW - at what point does the bloodline cease to be Jewish?
As long as there is an unbroken maternal line, they are Jews.
Once a Jewish man marries a non-Jewish woman, any children
occurring during this marriage are no longer Jews.


knowledge - ancestory is traced through the mother's line. Being Jewish runs through the woman, while tribal status runs
through the paternal line.

The first time a Jewish woman marries a Gentile, are their children still Jewish? Correct.

On his mother's side, no practicing Jews for three generations.
Whether they were or were not observant is irrelevant- it has to
be an unbroken maternal chain. Ie. his mother, his mother's mother, the maternal grandmother...all the way back on the maternal must be Jews.

[Heart of a Seeker]

Ok, now this information to me is cool. (yes, I am a 'seventies groovy chick')

We don't want to be 'Jewish' - we want to learn more about what's real and what's not in our walk with the Lord.

Constantine changed the Jewish rules to pagan rules and observances and I think that most of us don't even realize that. I didn't until last year when I first met my husband. We don't know exactly where our customs and traditions come from and the majority of them are pagan. It's just an accepted way of doing things without any questions. As you know, Sabbath was changed to Sunday because of him.

Christmas has been celebrated at the time it is because of the celebration of the pagan winter solstice celebrations - not because it was when Jesus was born. YOU chosen know that. (and I appreciate the way you explained that, Torah)

This is where we at. Yes, it is a curiousity, but it's a desire to learn about things the way that they're supposed to be and to truly try to follow some of those things. If God did things a certain way they are, unquestionably the RIGHT way of doing things. Do you know what I'm trying to say?

It's like saying that the Lord had certain rules for health safety. How many of those very rules are followed in the Gentile world today and if they WERE, would we be healthier? Yes.

But man always thinks he knows better than God and the true way of doing things gets thrown by the way side and we start dying - spiritually, emotionally and physically.

So please share more with us. There's things that we 'know' but that we don't understand.

[anisavta]

Your eyes have been opened by HaShem as to the paganism of the church. And He is calling out those who are ready and willing to go back to the purity of the way Yeshua set up His Body of believers.
I encourage you to find a good Messianic congregation. If you don't live near enough to one there are resourses online. Two I find to be good and correct in doctrine are:

hebrew4christians.com
and
http://www.bereansonline.org/top.htm

[ChavaK]

Ok, now this information to me is cool. (yes, I am a 'seventies groovy chick')
Me too! I am also a "boss chick" :)


This is where we at. Yes, it is a curiousity, but it's a desire to learn about things the way that they're supposed to be and to truly try to follow some of those things. If God did things a certain way they are, unquestionably the RIGHT way of doing things. Do you know what I'm trying to say?But very much of Jewish observance is custom and tradition, and much
of it has developed since the time of Jesus so this is why we don't get
why Christians want to follow these Jewish customs.

Much of our observances are explained and defined in the Talmud, and
as I understand it Messianics do not accept this as the word of HaShem,
so therefore there is no need to follow it or copy what Jews do. Otherwise
from a Messianics POV they would be following man made law and
observances, and what sense is there in that?

I think Jews would be much more comfortable if Christians would only
follow those customs in existence at the time Jesus lived, and quit
trying to all else that Jews do...they should develop their own
customs and traditions.

But ask any questions you would like...
:wave:

[Heart of a Seeker]

Me too! I am also a "boss chick" :)

But very much of Jewish observance is custom and tradition, and much
of it has developed since the time of Jesus so this is why we don't get
why Christians want to follow these Jewish customs.

Much of our observances are explained and defined in the Talmud, and
as I understand it Messianics do not accept this as the word of HaShem,
so therefore there is no need to follow it or copy what Jews do. Otherwise
from a Messianics POV they would be following man made law and
observances, and what sense is there in that?

I think Jews would be much more comfortable if Christians would only
follow those customs in existence at the time Jesus lived, and quit
trying to all else that Jews do...they should develop their own
customs and traditions.

But ask any questions you would like...
:wave:

But we do have the Old Testament, too. The New Testament is supposed to be the 'completion' of the Old. I guess I really don't understand. If we're following what Jesus' customs and traditions were at the time, aren't they the customs and traditions that you follow now?

[Lulav]

Ok, thank you for the advice and the suggestions.

I guess we will continue searching for where we belong and just keep pressing in to God and His guiding us.

No, I do not think that any traditions that we may be involved in will bring us closer to the Lord. We're saved by faith, not by works. Reading the Bible, prayer, listening to anointed speakers are all things that help us to grow in Him and we are doing that now.

I guess that we just wanted a place where we could fit in. Not being Jewish means we don't fit in the Messianic place either. Neither one of us looked at things this way before. We didn't realize a lot of what's been said here. I think we thought it was like the other 'churches' we attended that you go, you learn, you are blessed by others and try to be a blessing back. We honestly didn't know there were stipulations to being 'part' of the Messianic Jews. I'm really sorry and embarrassed about that.

We had been doing Torah studies and I guess we'll continue with those

With that I'll close..

Thanks again. I am so sorry, Heart, I hope I didnt' give you the wrong impression! Messianic congregations are about bringing Jew and gentiles together , each in their own special calling. See, the way it's been for over a thousand years is that if a Jew did believe in Messiah ( without coersion of course) they were then told they needed to stop being Jewish, that they were now a Christian ( like that changed their blood! :D) But today enough believers in Messiah that were Jews decided that enough was enough, that they didn't have to stop being Jewish when then believed in Jesus, because he is the JEWISH MeSSIAH! Not the gentile one as many teach. And forsaking their heritage is not necessary. So we still keep the feasts and Shabbat and live as the apostles of Yeshua did and gentiles , like back then, are welcome to join us, and together we form that one new man. :)

[anisavta]

Actually the Brit Chadasha is just a continuation of the Tanach. Yeshua and the apostles quoted heavily from the Tanach. After all that is the Holy Writings that they had.
Actually it depends on whether you came from Eastern Europe (Askenazi) or Spain/ Middle East (Sephardic) as to your traditions and customs. Different styles of dress, foods you eat, even scripture you read for the Parashot (weekly reading from the Torah/ Tanach) depend on where your family came from and what traditions and customs were handed down. It also depends on the spectrum of your observance religiously.
For the most part most of the customs and traditions have developed thu the years.
Go to a Passover Seder and you will find they are continually developing.

[anisavta]

I am so sorry, Heart, I hope I didnt' give you the wrong impression! Messianic congregations are about bringing Jew and gentiles together , each in their own special calling. See, the way it's been for over a thousand years is that if a Jew did believe in Messiah ( without coersion of course) they were then told they needed to stop being Jewish, that they were now a Christian ( like that changed their blood! :D) But today enough believers in Messiah that were Jews decided that enough was enough, that they didn't have to stop being Jewish when then believed in Jesus, because he is the JEWISH MeSSIAH! Not the gentile one as many teach. And forsaking their heritage is not necessary. So we still keep the feasts and Shabbat and live as the apostles of Yeshua did and gentiles , like back then, are welcome to join us, and together we form that one new man. :)
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[HalcyonFire]

But we do have the Old Testament, too. The New Testament is supposed to be the 'completion' of the Old. I guess I really don't understand. If we're following what Jesus' customs and traditions were at the time, aren't they the customs and traditions that you follow now?
not by a long shot - and I'm not Jewish

[Heart of a Seeker]

I am so sorry, Heart, I hope I didnt' give you the wrong impression! Messianic congregations are about bringing Jew and gentiles together , each in their own special calling. See, the way it's been for over a thousand years is that if a Jew did believe in Messiah ( without coersion of course) they were then told they needed to stop being Jewish, that they were now a Christian ( like that changed their blood! :D) But today enough believers in Messiah that were Jews decided that enough was enough, that they didn't have to stop being Jewish when then believed in Jesus, because he is the JEWISH MeSSIAH! Not the gentile one as many teach. And forsaking their heritage is not necessary. So we still keep the feasts and Shabbat and live as the apostles of Yeshua did and gentiles , like back then, are welcome to join us, and together we form that one new man. :)

Love it! Love it! Thank you!

I think, too, what you're saying is an 'ethnic/nationality' thing. I am half Swedish and half Scottish/Irish. I have some family traditions from both sides. But, too, I am an American. An American is who I am first - the nationalities are my family line.

What I see is that being Jewish is all encompassing - in every day life, not just in celebrations. That IS different than the way most of us live.

I am a Christian with these other things making up who I am in my blood line, being adopted into the body of Christ by HIS blood.

Is this kind of right?

[Hoankan]

After reviewing this thread, the moderating staff decided that this was better placed in The Messianic Way.

[Torah613]

To my fellow rabbinic Jews here:

I had a thought abuot this thread and realized that we may be havign a language problem here. I think when she says "customs" she does not mean Minhagim but rather mitzvoth. For instance it is a minhag to wear a yarmulka. HOwever during the second temple period our current styles would have been thought of as completely meshugah. This mitzvos haven't changed, but how we fulfill them has.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

HOS, keep in mind that Chava and I have given you the traditional, Orthodox, non-messianic responses to your questions. Messianics would probably respond differently.

Since you seem like an honest seeker, we thought you deserved a well rounded answer to your questions.

Yochanan

[kivi]

And I truly like this answer so much. Thank you.

BTW - at what point does the bloodline cease to be Jewish? To my husband's knowledge - ancestory is traced through the mother's line. The first time a Jewish woman marries a Gentile, are their children still Jewish? In my husband's case, his father was adopted. There is no knowledge of that bloodline. On his mother's side, no practicing Jews for three generations. He is, however, somewhat aghast at the Easter bunny, Santa Claus and Halloween being ok in the Christian community. It is he, as well as myself, who is looking for a reasonable place of worship because accepting these pagan customs and changing the day of the Sabbath, to him, does not show faithfully following the gospels of the Christ.


kivi says: Its mother to daughter to mother to daughter, forever, regardous of the father [as long as the marriage is otherwise legal]. However, given that most gentiles don't know their background except for 2 or 3 generations, there would have to some sort of identifiable record and the quesiton would have to be brought before a authoritzed Rabbinic Court Bas Din].

[kivi]

But we do have the Old Testament, too. The New Testament is supposed to be the 'completion' of the Old.
kivi says: That is what Christianity says about Old Testament. Of course, Judaism does not agree. According to Judaism, there is not need for additional texts like the New Testament because G-d did it right the 1st time, when he gave the Torah to the Jews. Of course, to further complicate matters what we consider to be the Torah is a lot more than just the Old Testament. Finally, to be honest, the Old Testament that you are using is, according to the Jews, an dangerously erroneous mis translation that seriously corrupts the original.
I guess I really don't understand. If we're following what Jesus' customs and traditions were at the time, aren't they the customs and traditions that you follow now?
kivi says: based on the text of the New Testament, much of what Jesus is supposed to have taught/practiced is not part of Judaism as it was taught/practiced 0-30 CE. Some of it is very outside the Jewish mainstream like the sacrifice of a human as atonement or the idea that an person could be part divine and part human or the idea that G-d is made up of several parts. Of course, some of it is within the mainstream. So there are seroous disagreements between Chirstians and Jews about how Jesus Christ fits into the history of Judaism. But Judaism of whatever flavor is in agreement that Jesus Christ is not the Messiah, that G-d is ONE and not made up of parts and that the New Testament is not part of the Jewish mainstream and that Christainity is a deviant sect that stopped being Jewish by 135 CE/.