Wof,how They View Scripture.

[pinetree]

What I think is wrong with the well meaning WOF, is their viewpoint of scripture.They seem to want to turn all the healing verses into rhema words,when maybe the Spirit has not quickend a verse in a particular time or persons life.

Thus we end up with a pasting of scripture,on an all for all,all the time basis. We see that does not work,because when you omit grace,you have legalism.

Now,if God gives a living rhema word,go raise that dead person,you can bet your house HE WILL RISE! Without a rhema word,try walking into a funeral home,and yell out.,COME FORTH!:o

You may want to get outa there real fast,when you anger grieving people, who come chase you out! :D

Scripture that tells us who we are in Christ,our new covenant standing in grace,what Christ did on the cross,etc,are not what we could call “action verses”.Commands to go do.Seems like there are being and doing verses.The doing ones,seem to be the issue.:idea:

When the Spirit heals,or moves,there is a direction,a plan,the acting out of God’s power.When and where He wants it to be for that certain situation ,and timing in a sick persons life.

Paul was led by revelation.. Galatians 2:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=2&verse=2&version=31&context=verse)
I went in response to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. But I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders, for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain.


Paul had a purpose,a direction from the spirit,a plan LED by God.

Jesus was led into the wilderness,a plan for that time,for that occasion.Led by God.

We have to hear the Spirit tell us when and where..and if…


To prove a point,Jesus cursed a fig tree.Who tomorrow can go curse fig trees? That was an experience,and an example from Jesus.Why not everyone go do that tomorrow? I wont mention the mountain into the sea,;) Do we mechanically go around cursing fig trees? Try it!:D

Who tomorrow can go into the mall,and walk up to every sick person and heal them,without a living WOF.

Do we go to the mall,with a subjective word of faith,or try to strive in the flesh.Quoting scripture,without the anointing.

Some wof friends,might say..the people in the mall,don’t have faith! That is why we cant go heal in the mall.

Ok,so what about the centurions servant,healed by the centurions faith..There is a verse to quote.:)

The fig tree responded to the word of power. (hey,sounds like a great new church name,WOP:D) Not a scripture pasted and plucked.It was a subjective power experience for then,to be imitated only by grace when it is the leading of the Spirit.

Why cant wof go speak healings in the mall,just like Jesus did to the tree.

Seems like there is an issue of absolutes.

So,are we led of the spirit with direction?:)

[Balance]

The more threads you open and the more posts you write on how you think someone else views scripture, convinces me more and more that you and a number of others have no clue about it, and worse yet - don't want to listen to anyone from Word of Faith.

Why do you think that you know more about what another person believes, than the people - like myself, PRobinson and others who actually attend Word of Faith churches?

We have tried to explain that we don't say what you say we do, believe like you say we believe. And yet is seems almost like an obsession with you and the other two.

Don't you realize the only ones that keep these topics alive are you?

If you really wanted to silence talking about Word of Faith Doctrine, you could eliminate 99% of it by simply stop posting thread after thread on it.

I could be completely wrong - but it seems to me, if you couldn't post on Word of Faith - you would have nothing to say at all.

[JimfromOhio]

"View" actually means "doctrine" which is an opinion or practice. Often we see some doctrines that are contrary to the truth or to generally accepted Christianity's beliefs or standards.

[TheBloodOfJesus]

I could be completely wrong - but it seems to me, if you couldn't post on Word of Faith - you would have nothing to say at all.




It would seem that there are people on this forum who are absolutely obsessed with WoF. The vast majority of their posts and threads revolve around trying to defame and discredit WoFer and what they believe. We even have what appears to be sub forum dedicated to the exclusion and defaming of WoF. Truly odd.
But that is fine... personally I would "get a life" of my own and leave others to theirs. But that is just me.

[pinetree]

The more threads you open and the more posts you write on how you think someone else views scripture, convinces me more and more that you and a number of others have no clue about it, and worse yet - don't want to listen to anyone from Word of Faith.

Why do you think that you know more about what another person believes, than the people - like myself, PRobinson and others who actually attend Word of Faith churches?

We have tried to explain that we don't say what you say we do, believe like you say we believe. And yet is seems almost like an obsession with you and the other two.

Don't you realize the only ones that keep these topics alive are you?

If you really wanted to silence talking about Word of Faith Doctrine, you could eliminate 99% of it by simply stop posting thread after thread on it.

I could be completely wrong - but it seems to me, if you couldn't post on Word of Faith - you would have nothing to say at all.




http://i339.photobucket.com/albums/n475/abbeysmic/Craigslist/100_0531.jpg

Balance,I think you need to go to the time out seat for awhile,and calm down.

[pinetree]

It would seem that there are people on this forum who are absolutely obsessed with WoF. The vast majority of their posts and threads revolve around trying to defame and discredit WoFer and what they believe. We even have what appears to be sub forum dedicated to the exclusion and defaming of WoF. Truly odd.
But that is fine... personally I would "get a life" of my own and leave others to theirs. But that is just me.
Then why are you posting here?

[JimfromOhio]

It would seem that there are people on this forum who are absolutely obsessed with WoF. The vast majority of their posts and threads revolve around trying to defame and discredit WoFer and what they believe. We even have what appears to be sub forum dedicated to the exclusion and defaming of WoF. Truly odd.
But that is fine... personally I would "get a life" of my own and leave others to theirs. But that is just me.
My concept of Word of Faith is that they focuses on works in terms of “faith” towards health, wealth and prosperity. I don’t view these as the essentials of Christian life and practice.

I reject Word of Faith doctrines for many reasons. Its a long list. If its a long list, then the doctrines they believe are not essentials for my relationship with God. Nothing wrong with prosperity but the desires and the dreams of prosperity ties to idolatry. When we accumulate our possessions for our own selfish sake--those possessions have become idols. Idols when a Christian have a selfish heart of greed is your master.

[ARBITER01]

What I think is wrong with the well meaning WOF, is their viewpoint of scripture.They seem to want to turn all the healing verses into rhema words,when maybe the Spirit has not quickend a verse in a particular time or persons life.

Thus we end up with a pasting of scripture,on an all for all,all the time basis. We see that does not work,because when you omit grace,you have legalism.

Now,if God gives a living rhema word,go raise that dead person,you can bet your house HE WILL RISE! Without a rhema word,try walking into a funeral home,and yell out.,COME FORTH!:o

You may want to get outa there real fast,when you anger grieving people, who come chase you out! :D

Scripture that tells us who we are in Christ,our new covenant standing in grace,what Christ did on the cross,etc,are not what we could call “action verses”.Commands to go do.Seems like there are being and doing verses.The doing ones,seem to be the issue.:idea:

When the Spirit heals,or moves,there is a direction,a plan,the acting out of God’s power.When and where He wants it to be for that certain situation ,and timing in a sick persons life.

Paul was led by revelation.. Galatians 2:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=2&verse=2&version=31&context=verse)
I went in response to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. But I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders, for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain.


Paul had a purpose,a direction from the spirit,a plan LED by God.

Jesus was led into the wilderness,a plan for that time,for that occasion.Led by God.

We have to hear the Spirit tell us when and where..and if…


To prove a point,Jesus cursed a fig tree.Who tomorrow can go curse fig trees? That was an experience,and an example from Jesus.Why not everyone go do that tomorrow? I wont mention the mountain into the sea,;) Do we mechanically go around cursing fig trees? Try it!:D

Who tomorrow can go into the mall,and walk up to every sick person and heal them,without a living WOF.

Do we go to the mall,with a subjective word of faith,or try to strive in the flesh.Quoting scripture,without the anointing.

Some wof friends,might say..the people in the mall,don’t have faith! That is why we cant go heal in the mall.

Ok,so what about the centurions servant,healed by the centurions faith..There is a verse to quote.:)

The fig tree responded to the word of power. (hey,sounds like a great new church name,WOP:D) Not a scripture pasted and plucked.It was a subjective power experience for then,to be imitated only by grace when it is the leading of the Spirit.

Why cant wof go speak healings in the mall,just like Jesus did to the tree.

Seems like there is an issue of absolutes.

So,are we led of the spirit with direction?:)


WOW! I enjoyed this post Joe!

Quite a lot of insight in that for anyone paying attention.

We are not to bear witness of ourselves, Jesus never did it, so we cannot either. If we are not hearing The Father speak and acting in obediance to the faith given inside our spirits, then what are we doing??

Jesus gave no other example for us to follow except Him hearing The Father speak and showing Him what to do. His example is perfect.

[Balance]

http://i339.photobucket.com/albums/n475/abbeysmic/Craigslist/100_0531.jpg

Balance,I think you need to go to the time out seat for awhile,and calm down.


WOW! that was such a well thought out and articulated response you have convinced me! As for being calm - boo boo - I'm laughing. :D:D

In fact, I am inviting friends to come and watch this. So, a good time is about to be had!

Why do you and others resort to this kind of response when people disagree with you? Are you that insecure?




My concept of Word of Faith is that they focuses on works in terms of “faith” towards health, wealth and prosperity. I don’t view these as the essentials of Christian life and practice.

Pssst.... neither does the vast majority of Word of Faith people -

I reject Word of Faith doctrines for many reasons. Its a long list. If its a long list, then the doctrines they believe are not essentials for my relationship with God. Nothing wrong with prosperity but the desires and the dreams of prosperity ties to idolatry. When we accumulate our possessions for our own selfish sake--those possessions have become idols. Idols when a Christian have a selfish heart of greed is your master.

I'm open - which doctrines ? - be sure to post links and referenced to the doctrinal stance you have issues with.

And now I wait for a certain member to once again ask where there is a central beliefe between WoF - cause he can't find one. They seems to chage depending on what group you are speaking to - yadda yadda yadda.

But JimfromOhio-

I am interested in seeing the links that you are basing your objections of Word of Faith 'doctrines' to.

[JimfromOhio]

WOW! that was such a well thought out and articulated response you have convinced me! As for being calm - boo boo - I'm laughing. :D:D

In fact, I am inviting friends to come and watch this. So, a good time is about to be had!

Why do you and others resort to this kind of response when people disagree with you? Are you that insecure?






I'm open - which doctrines ? - be sure to post links and referenced to the doctrinal stance you have issues with.

And now I wait for a certain member to once again ask where there is a central beliefe between WoF - cause he can't find one. They seems to chage depending on what group you are speaking to - yadda yadda yadda.

But JimfromOhio-

I am interested in seeing the links that you are basing your objections of Word of Faith 'doctrines' to.



http://www.rhema.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=19&Itemid=22

[JimfromOhio]

Another site I learned from: Word of Faith Answers (Defending Word of Faith Doctrines) http://wordoffaithanswers.com/default.aspx

[Balance]

http://www.rhema.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=19&Itemid=22

OK - those are a whole lot of articles - but none are doctrine -

Can you pick just one - quote what you do not agree with and why?

I'm excited - we might actually have a conversation going here!

:wave:

[~RENEE~]

WOF views scripture. As reality. It is truth no matter what our mortal eyes see. It is truth. It IS reality. And what we see with our mortal eyes is passing.

[Balance]

It seems to me people ought to have a little sense. In other words, I do not understand how some people can go around spouting off things, endeavoring to believe and calling it faith when it is merely presumption and folly.

Christians need to have enough sense to know where faith will work and where it won’t. Never get out beyond the Word of God. You get into trouble when you move beyond the Word of God and have no basis for faith.


Is there something in that opening statement on faith that you do not agree with?


I'm glad you brought in the link - I'd encourage people to read the articles. But remember - they are just that - articles - teachings - not doctrine.

[JimfromOhio]

OK - those are a whole lot of articles - but none are doctrine -

Can you pick just one - quote what you do not agree with and why?

I'm excited - we might actually have a conversation going here!

:wave:

Actually this: Positive Confession which really goes against biblical fidelity and historical orthodoxy. Rhema is all about Faith Formula Theology.

Other references:

Kenneth Hagin : "Jesus used the fig tree to demonstrate that He had that God-kind of faith, then He said to the disciples--and to us--'You have that kind of faith.'...Jesus said He had the God-kind of faith; He encouraged His disciples to exercise that kind of faith; and He said that 'whosoever' could do it. . . . That is why Jesus said, 'whosoever shall say . . . and shall not doubt IN HIS HEART.' " (Having Faith in Your Faith [Tulsa, OK: Kenneth Hagin Ministries, 1988], 3, emphasis in original.)

Kenneth Hagin : "Every man who has been born again is an incarnation and Christianity is a miracle. The believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth." ("The Incarnation," The Word of Faith 13, 12 [December 1980]:14; cf. E.W. Kenyon, The Father and His Family, 100.)

[Balance]

Actually this: Positive Confession which really goes against biblical fidelity and historical orthodoxy. Rhema is all about Faith Formula Theology.

Funny, I graduated from Rhema and then taught there for four years and somewhere I missed those classes.

The only people that believe such things are people who have no idea what Rhema really teaches.

Other references:

Kenneth Hagin : "Jesus used the fig tree to demonstrate that He had that God-kind of faith, then He said to the disciples--and to us--'You have that kind of faith.'...Jesus said He had the God-kind of faith; He encouraged His disciples to exercise that kind of faith; and He said that 'whosoever' could do it. . . . That is why Jesus said, 'whosoever shall say . . . and shall not doubt IN HIS HEART.' " (Having Faith in Your Faith [Tulsa, OK: Kenneth Hagin Ministries, 1988], 3, emphasis in original.)

This PARTIAL Quote is from the heresy hunter website:

http://www.letusreason.org/Wf8.htm

Kenneth Hagin : "Every man who has been born again is an incarnation and Christianity is a miracle. The believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth." ("The Incarnation," The Word of Faith 13, 12 [December 1980]:14; cf. E.W. Kenyon, The Father and His Family, 100.)

This PARTIAL quote can be found at this heresy hunter website:

http://www.watchman.org/reltop/unbiblcl.htm

Sorry - I thought I was actually going to get a real conversation with you - .

[JimfromOhio]

This PARTIAL quote can be found at this heresy hunter website:

http://www.watchman.org/reltop/unbiblcl.htm

Sorry - I thought I was actually going to get a real conversation with you - .


You be amazed how many sites have similar references and quotes. WOF often refer to them "heresy hunters". Gift of Discernments are classified by those who hates this gift as "heresy hunters" for very good reason. To avoid truth to come out. Heresy is this: More reasonings and less scriptural.... when that happens, its heresy !!

Let me ask, why focus on prosperity and wealth when Christ didn't? Jesus never preached how to be earthly prosperity. The Apostles surely didn't either.

What's is the MAIN difference between WOF doctrines and other Christian doctrines? We all know that's a clear answer

[TheBloodOfJesus]

This PARTIAL quote can be found at this heresy hunter website:

http://www.watchman.org/reltop/unbiblcl.htm

Sorry - I thought I was actually going to get a real conversation with you - .

Most of the anti-WoF threads we find here are similarly unoriginal. They do not know what WoF teaches, and have no qualms quoting unproven sources to make their ignorant points.
When will someone come up with something that is original and that has substance.:confused:
Most of the current threads are very shallow in their content.
Com'on guys... at least put up a effort!^_^

[JimfromOhio]

Most of the anti-WoF threads we find here are similarly unoriginal. They do not know what WoF teaches, and have no qualms quoting unproven sources to make their ignorant points.
When will someone come up with something that is original and that has substance.:confused:
Most of the current threads are very shallow in their content.
Com'on guys... at least put up a effort!^_^
Yep, a poster's conclusions are either ignorance or loyalty to a specific denomination, cause, teachings (doctrines) or person. ;)

[Leimeng]

Actually this: Positive Confession which really goes against biblical fidelity and historical orthodoxy. Rhema is all about Faith Formula Theology.


Kenneth Hagin : "Every man who has been born again is an incarnation and Christianity is a miracle. The believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth." ("The Incarnation," The Word of Faith 13, 12 [December 1980]:14; cf. E.W. Kenyon, The Father and His Family, 100.)

~ Wow, you mean to tell me that being born again is NOT a miracle? You mean to tell me you could reach the state of righteousness that and freedom by yourself all by yourself? That is arrogance beyond belief! Or maybe you belive that Jesus did not need to die for your sins because calvin or some other cult leader said that GOD chose to save who HE loved and sent the rest to hell because HE hated them? That the blood of Jesus was not needed? That is arrogance and displays a very poor understanding of scripture. Maybe you do not believe that GOD dwells in us in the form of the Holy Spirit (or what some call asking Jesus into your heart.) We have GOD IN our CARNE; incarnation. That is a rejection of scripture. Don't you know that GOD made you a new creature at the point of salvation and indwelt us? Jesus was 100% divine and 100% human simultaniously. However according to scripture He laid aside his divinity and took up the flesh suit we wear and operated as a man under the old covenent.
~ My friend, perhaps you need to study English and Greek and the Bible some more, (along with history), because your objections to the above quote demonstrate a serious lack of understanding of all three (four).
~ I agree with you on a lot of things, but you are demonstrating some rather serious issues in what you believe.
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Peace,

Leimeng

Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~

[Balance]

You be amazed how many sites have similar references and quotes. WOF often refer to them "heresy hunters". Gift of Discernments are classified by those who hates this gift as "heresy hunters" for very good reason. To avoid truth to come out. Heresy is this: More reasonings and less scriptural.... when that happens, its heresy !!

Let me ask, why focus on prosperity and wealth when Christ didn't? Jesus never preached how to be earthly prosperity. The Apostles surely didn't either.

Simple answer - the only ones here focusing on prosperity and wealth are you, pinetree and Jimbeaux - why are you so consumed with it?

What's is the MAIN difference between WOF doctrines and other Christian doctrines? We all know that's a clear answer

I also don't think you quite know what a doctrine is.

If you did and you compared doctrinal stance between Rhema and say--- the Assemblies of God, you would see they are amost identical. That is because PC Nelson was the author of both. But where I think you are stuck is the loathing you have for prosperity and healing.

In doing so, you completely miss or ignore the essence of what the WoF actually teaches on things like

Holiness
Sanctification
Gifts of the Spirit
Covenant relationship
what it means to be in Christ
Redemption
Salvation
The Lords Supper and literally hundreds more.

You ignore 99% of what we teach to bash the 2 that you don't agree with and have admitted you don't have any real background in.


Sorry - for all your study - you also seem to have fallen into a real prevalent false teaching - there is no gift of discernment -

The closest is the Discerning of spirits.

Which is the most often mis-quoted by those whose whole purpose is to criticize ministers they do not agree with.

[pinetree]

I also don't think you quite know what a doctrine is.

If you did and you compared doctrinal stance between Rhema and say--- the Assemblies of God, you would see they are amost identical. That is because PC Nelson was the author of both. But where I think you are stuck is the loathing you have for prosperity and healing.

In doing so, you completely miss or ignore the essence of what the WoF actually teaches on things like

Holiness


Sanctification
Gifts of the Spirit
Covenant relationship
what it means to be in Christ
Redemption
Salvation
The Lords Supper and literally hundreds more.

You ignore 99% of what we teach to bash the 2 that you don't agree with and have admitted you don't have any real background in.


Sorry - for all your study - you also seem to have fallen into a real prevalent false teaching - there is no gift of discernment -

The closest is the Discerning of spirits.

Which is the most often mis-quoted by those whose whole purpose is to criticize ministers they do not agree with.



oohhhhhH balance....

Why is it that these wofers (leaders)mostly talk about health and wealth?

FRED PRICE
JESSE DUPLANTIS
MARH CHIRRONA
PAULA WHITE
JOEL OSTEEN
JOYCE MEYERS
CREFLO DOLLAR
KENNETH HAGIN JR
BENNY HINN
LARRY HUTCH

AND THE WHOLE ENTIRE TBN (WOF) NETWORK!

Seems like that is the prominent part of the doctrine.:D

Sounds like as a pastor,you should confront them..

Do they have a conference you can attend?

Luke 6:45 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=6&verse=45&version=31&context=verse)
The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.

[pinetree]

WOW! I enjoyed this post Joe!

Quite a lot of insight in that for anyone paying attention.

We are not to bear witness of ourselves, Jesus never did it, so we cannot either. If we are not hearing The Father speak and acting in obediance to the faith given inside our spirits, then what are we doing??

Jesus gave no other example for us to follow except Him hearing The Father speak and showing Him what to do. His example is perfect.
Thanks bro,I enjoy your posts too.:):thumbsup:

[TheBloodOfJesus]

LOL...
but that is NOT what they "mostly talk about."
Once again you are showing your ingnorance at to what WoF is.
These are things that YOU mostly obsess about, but anyone who has ever read or listened to wof will find out that these are minor teachings and very little time is spent on them.
If you would take the time to read what someone like E.W. Kenyon wrote instead of blindly obsessing about what the heresy hunters say, you will find that healing is only dealt with a couple books, and prosperity is dealt with in only ONE book... a mini book at that.
By far the MOST important topic of wof is not healing or prosperity.. in fact it is not even faith! The most important topics that WoF teaches are things like righteousness, fellowshiping the father, and what Christ accomplished in His work of redemption.
But I get the feeling you are not interested in truth or reality.. your are simply so obsessed with defaming wof that truth, honesty, and fairness no longer matter to you.
So just do your worst... ignore truth, make up all the garabage you want to. It just further proves you have no idea what you are talking about.. and do not care either way.

oohhhhhH balance....

Why is it that these wofers (leaders)mostly talk about health and wealth?

FRED PRICE
JESSE DUPLANTIS
MARH CHIRRONA
PAULA WHITE
JOEL OSTEEN
JOYCE MEYERS
CREFLO DOLLAR
KENNETH HAGIN JR
BENNY HINN
LARRY HUTCH

AND THE WHOLE ENTIRE TBN (WOF) NETWORK!

Seems like that is the prominent part of the doctrine.:D

Luke 6:45 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=6&verse=45&version=31&context=verse)
The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.

[pinetree]

I also don't think you quite know what a doctrine is.

If you did and you compared doctrinal stance between Rhema and say--- the Assemblies of God, you would see they are amost identical. That is because PC Nelson was the author of both. But where I think you are stuck is the loathing you have for prosperity and healing.

In doing so, you completely miss or ignore the essence of what the WoF actually teaches on things like

Holiness
Sanctification
Gifts of the Spirit
Covenant relationship
what it means to be in Christ
Redemption
Salvation
The Lords Supper and literally hundreds more.

You ignore 99% of what we teach to bash the 2 that you don't agree with and have admitted you don't have any real background in.


Sorry - for all your study - you also seem to have fallen into a real prevalent false teaching - there is no gift of discernment -

The closest is the Discerning of spirits.

Which is the most often mis-quoted by those whose whole purpose is to criticize ministers they do not agree with.





Romans 12:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=6&version=31&context=verse)
We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith

1 Corinthians 12:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&verse=4&version=31&context=verse)
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.

it says gifts.

1 Corinthians 12:9-10 (New International Version)



9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20corinthians%2012:9-10;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28629a)] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.


1 Corinthians 12:9-10 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=15) (YLT)



9and to another faith in the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healings in the same Spirit; 10and to another in-workings of mighty deeds; and to another prophecy; and to another discernings of spirits; and to another [divers] kinds of tongues; and to another interpretation of tongues:


look at the context.

[JimfromOhio]

Most Christian Churches do agree on major doctrines such as
Sanctification
Gifts of the Spirit
Covenant relationship
what it means to be in Christ
Redemption
Salvation
The Lords Supper

Satan only needs .1% of his doctrine thrown into Christian faith to throw out the whole context of Christian faith. I will speak up when I hear doctrines that I disagree with. Doctrines sounds very good and simple but Christian faith is not so simple. One small doctrine will simply selects the parts of the Scripture he or she wants to emphasize and ignore the rest.

Let's talk about "FAITH"

What does a person mean by a faith (doctrinally)? Or faith?

Does this person mean THE faith?

Does he mean Christianity? Its doctrines and its teaching?

Is Faith objective or subjective?

Is this person talking about the power to believe (which means subjective)?

What does it really means when one says "who have received faith of the same kind as ours"?

Subjective faith (the power to believe through grace), to say that this person received from God the same power to believe.


Objective faith is the power to believe from flesh (legalism), that is saying this person using his/her power to believe. Object is God that provides (i.e. wealth, health or any other idols).

[pinetree]

LOL...
but that is NOT what they "mostly talk about."
Once again you are showing your ingnorance at to what WoF is.
These are things that YOU mostly obsess about, but anyone who has ever read or listened to wof will find out that these are minor teachings and very little time is spent on them.
If you would take the time to read what someone like E.W. Kenyon wrote instead of blindly obsessing about what the heresy hunters say, you will find that healing is only dealt with a couple books, and prosperity is dealt with in only ONE book... a mini book at that.
By far the MOST important topic of wof is not healing or prosperity.. in fact it is not even faith! The most important topics that WoF teaches are things like righteousness, fellowshiping the father, and what Christ accomplished in His work of redemption.
But I get the feeling you are not interested in truth or reality.. your are simply so obsessed with defaming wof that truth, honesty, and fairness no longer matter to you.
So just do your worst... ignore truth, make up all the garabage you want to. It just further proves you have no idea what you are talking about.. and do not care either way.
hello oh fiesty one..:wave:

is there something you are trying to say?:D

[pinetree]

Most Christian Churches do agree on major doctrines such as


Satan only needs .1% of his doctrine thrown into Christian faith to throw out the whole context of Christian faith. I will speak up when I hear doctrines that I disagree with. Doctrines sounds very good and simple but Christian faith is not so simple. One small doctrine will simply selects the parts of the Scripture he or she wants to emphasize and ignore the rest.

Let's talk about "FAITH"

What does a person mean by a faith (doctrinally)? Or faith?

Does this person mean THE faith?

Does he mean Christianity? Its doctrines and its teaching?

Is Faith objective or subjective?

Is this person talking about the power to believe (which means subjective)?

What does it really means when one says "who have received faith of the same kind as ours"?

Subjective faith (the power to believe through grace), to say that this person received from God the same power to believe.

Objective faith is the power to believe from flesh (legalism), that is saying this person using his/her power to believe. Object is God that provides (i.e. wealth, health or any other idols).




Amen! That is why balance seeks to avoid the op,and get all caught up in, is discerning is a gift or not.:D

And the same old going around the doctrine mulberry bush!:o

[dkbwarrior]

oohhhhhH balance....

Why is it that these wofers (leaders)mostly talk about health and wealth?

FRED PRICE
JESSE DUPLANTIS
MARH CHIRRONA
PAULA WHITE
JOEL OSTEEN
JOYCE MEYERS
CREFLO DOLLAR
KENNETH HAGIN JR
BENNY HINN
LARRY HUTCH

AND THE WHOLE ENTIRE TBN (WOF) NETWORK!

Seems like that is the prominent part of the doctrine.:D

Sounds like as a pastor,you should confront them..

Do they have a conference you can attend?

Luke 6:45 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=6&verse=45&version=31&context=verse)
The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.

Well, I actually started to do a search of each of the names you listed to give you a percentage of their product catalog of books and tapes that talked about healing and prosperity, then stopped myself. I've done it before, and it doesn't stop the lies.

I suspect that you don't really care that 95% of their ministry materials are on different subjects, if you really cared about the facts, you would have researched them before making such a false accusation.

In my experience, the only people that are obsessed with the subjects of healing and prosperity are those that feel it is their mission in life to oppose them.

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

Here's one example, I know many of us admire for both A.B. Simpson in which he founded Christian and Missionary Alliance Church (C&MA). A.W. Tozer is among one of great leaders of C&MA organization.

Back in 2003, members has left C&MA when they announced that Word-Faith is going to be accepted and endorsed by C&MA in their official magazine Alife (Alliance Life), C&MA Online Magazine, "Are You Ready For A Miracle?", by Jonathan Graf, Director For Prayer Mobilization, September 2003. (http://www.alliancelife.org/current/practical-0309.php)

You won't find any of their (Simpson & Tozer) writings talking about Word of Faith doctrines.

[Optimax]

What I think is wrong with the well meaning WOF, is their viewpoint of scripture.They seem to want to turn all the healing verses into rhema words,when maybe the Spirit has not quickend a verse in a particular time or persons life.

Thus we end up with a pasting of scripture,on an all for all,all the time basis. We see that does not work,because when you omit grace,you have legalism.

Now,if God gives a living rhema word,go raise that dead person,you can bet your house HE WILL RISE! Without a rhema word,try walking into a funeral home,and yell out.,COME FORTH!:o

You may want to get outa there real fast,when you anger grieving people, who come chase you out! :D

Scripture that tells us who we are in Christ,our new covenant standing in grace,what Christ did on the cross,etc,are not what we could call “action verses”.Commands to go do.Seems like there are being and doing verses.The doing ones,seem to be the issue.:idea:

When the Spirit heals,or moves,there is a direction,a plan,the acting out of God’s power.When and where He wants it to be for that certain situation ,and timing in a sick persons life.

Paul was led by revelation.. Galatians 2:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=2&verse=2&version=31&context=verse)
I went in response to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. But I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders, for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain.


Paul had a purpose,a direction from the spirit,a plan LED by God.

Jesus was led into the wilderness,a plan for that time,for that occasion.Led by God.

We have to hear the Spirit tell us when and where..and if…


To prove a point,Jesus cursed a fig tree.Who tomorrow can go curse fig trees? That was an experience,and an example from Jesus.Why not everyone go do that tomorrow? I wont mention the mountain into the sea,;) Do we mechanically go around cursing fig trees? Try it!:D

Who tomorrow can go into the mall,and walk up to every sick person and heal them,without a living WOF.

Do we go to the mall,with a subjective word of faith,or try to strive in the flesh.Quoting scripture,without the anointing.

Some wof friends,might say..the people in the mall,don’t have faith! That is why we cant go heal in the mall.

Ok,so what about the centurions servant,healed by the centurions faith..There is a verse to quote.:)

The fig tree responded to the word of power. (hey,sounds like a great new church name,WOP:D) Not a scripture pasted and plucked.It was a subjective power experience for then,to be imitated only by grace when it is the leading of the Spirit.

Why cant wof go speak healings in the mall,just like Jesus did to the tree.

Seems like there is an issue of absolutes.

So,are we led of the spirit with direction?:)


Are you sure you are speaking of WOF?

You conclusions and statements are not those of WOF.

If this is your conclusions and statements regarding WOF you are really going to be embarrassed in the event you ever come to an understanding of the what you are talking about.

What you wrote screams that you do not know of what you are speaking.

[pinetree]

Well, I actually started to do a search of each of the names you listed to give you a percentage of their product catalog of books and tapes that talked about healing and prosperity, then stopped myself. I've done it before, and it doesn't stop the lies.

I suspect that you don't really care that 95% of their ministry materials are on different subjects, if you really cared about the facts, you would have researched them before making such a false accusation.

In my experience, the only people that are obsessed with the subjects of healing and prosperity are those that feel it is their mission in life to oppose them.

Peace...
I only wish tbn had transcripts of their shows.The site says they dont.Looks like I think I might just ship you a tv after all.

[pinetree]

Are you sure you are speaking of WOF?

You conclusions and statements are not those of WOF.

If this is your conclusions and statements regarding WOF you are really going to be embarrassed in the event you ever come to an understanding of the what you are talking about.

What you wrote screams that you do not know of what you are speaking.
Oral Roberts wears a pacemaker.
Kenneth Hagin (who has made the most outlandish statements regarding guaranteed healing for believers) died unhealed Sept.19,. 2003 in the cardiac intensive care unit of a Tulsa hospital after suffering a heart attack. Hagin’s sister had previously died unhealed of cancer.
Buddy Harrison Hagin’s son-in-law and founder of Harrison House Publishing, the largest disseminator of the PHIA doctrine, died of unhealed cancer in December 1999.

E.W. Kenyon died in 1948 while in a unhealed comatose cancerous state.

Charles Capps wife, Beverly, is under constant psychiatric care and uses meds to maintain unhealed emotional balance.

Kathryn Kuhlman died of unhealed heart failure in 1976 after suffering from a heart condition for twenty years.

Joyce Meyers has been medically treated for unhealed breast cancer.

John Osteen, although his wife Dodie was miraculously healed of liver cancer in the mid-1980s, himself died in a hospital of an unhealed heart condition. Osteen had suffered numerous unhealed medical problems.

Frederick Price’s wife, Betty, has undergone chemotherapy.

T.L. Osborne’s wife, Daisy, died in 1995 of unhealed cancer.

Rod Parsley has had back surgery and his son Austin suffers from Asperger's syndrome, a form of autism.

R.W. Shambach has had quadruple bypass surgery.

William Branham died in 1965, at age 56, from complication following an automobile accident.

A.A. Allen died of in San Francisco in1970 of sclerosis of the liver (brought on by alcohol toxicity) and cardiac arrest.

Jack Coe died in 1956 of unhealed polio.

Robert Kelso Carter, the father and originator of the modern physical-healing-is-in-the-atonement-doctrine (c.1884 with the book The Atonement for Sin and Sickness), died of tuberculosis in 1898. To his credit, he recanted the atonement-for-sickness doctrine after seeing its lack of effectiveness and being unable to adequate answer its challenges in his book Faith Healing Reviewed After Twenty Years, returning to medical school, and setting up a medical practice in Baltimore in 1895. He wrote the song, “Standing On the Promises.” Here’s a bio of Carter-click here (http://healingandrevival.com/BioRKCarter.htm).

See what I mean bro.These people thought it was a formula too.It proves a point. They stood,confessed,claimed,named,rebuked..

It shows not all,for all the time.

[Jere209]

Oral Roberts wears a pacemaker.
Kenneth Hagin (who has made the most outlandish statements regarding guaranteed healing for believers) died unhealed Sept.19,. 2003 in the cardiac intensive care unit of a Tulsa hospital after suffering a heart attack. Hagin’s sister had previously died unhealed of cancer.
Buddy Harrison Hagin’s son-in-law and founder of Harrison House Publishing, the largest disseminator of the PHIA doctrine, died of unhealed cancer in December 1999.

E.W. Kenyon died in 1948 while in a unhealed comatose cancerous state.

Charles Capps wife, Beverly, is under constant psychiatric care and uses meds to maintain unhealed emotional balance.

Kathryn Kuhlman died of unhealed heart failure in 1976 after suffering from a heart condition for twenty years.

Joyce Meyers has been medically treated for unhealed breast cancer.

John Osteen, although his wife Dodie was miraculously healed of liver cancer in the mid-1980s, himself died in a hospital of an unhealed heart condition. Osteen had suffered numerous unhealed medical problems.

Frederick Price’s wife, Betty, has undergone chemotherapy.

T.L. Osborne’s wife, Daisy, died in 1995 of unhealed cancer.

Rod Parsley has had back surgery and his son Austin suffers from Asperger's syndrome, a form of autism.

R.W. Shambach has had quadruple bypass surgery.

William Branham died in 1965, at age 56, from complication following an automobile accident.

A.A. Allen died of in San Francisco in1970 of sclerosis of the liver (brought on by alcohol toxicity) and cardiac arrest.

Jack Coe died in 1956 of unhealed polio.

Robert Kelso Carter, the father and originator of the modern physical-healing-is-in-the-atonement-doctrine (c.1884 with the book The Atonement for Sin and Sickness), died of tuberculosis in 1898. To his credit, he recanted the atonement-for-sickness doctrine after seeing its lack of effectiveness and being unable to adequate answer its challenges in his book Faith Healing Reviewed After Twenty Years, returning to medical school, and setting up a medical practice in Baltimore in 1895. He wrote the song, “Standing On the Promises.” Here’s a bio of Carter-click here (http://healingandrevival.com/BioRKCarter.htm).

See what I mean bro.These people thought it was a formula too.It proves a point. Thet stood,confessed,claimed,named,rebuked..

It shows not all,for all the time.
Pinetree, hey there..
I pointed this out to you before, but you did not take note. Joyce Meyer has been medically treated for HEALED breast cancer. Whether or not God chose to heal her through medicine, doctors, or by a miracle from on high is totally up to Him. After all, He IS God, and He can do just whatever He wants. Miracles often happen for those that do NOT believe, Pinetree...and it definitely pokes a hole in what you claim. ;)

[pinetree]

Pinetree, hey there..
I pointed this out to you before, but you did not take note. Joyce Meyer has been medically treated for HEALED breast cancer. Whether or not God chose to heal her through medicine, doctors, or by a miracle from on high is totally up to Him. After all, He IS God, and He can do just whatever He wants. Miracles often happen for those that do NOT believe, Pinetree...and it definitely pokes a hole in what you claim. ;)
jere..

Thank you for the info.I am glad.

The list ie still rather long,even without Joyce.

These are prominent "faith teachers".

[Optimax]

See what I mean bro.These people thought it was a formula too.It proves a point. They stood,confessed,claimed,named,rebuked..

It shows not all,for all the time.


Were you there when all this happened. No you were not.

Did you hear them confess, claim, etc.

The only thing that is shown is lack of understanding again.

BTW: Many you named here are not WOF.
Who? you may ask.

Do your homework before posting.

[Jere209]

jere..

Thank you for the info.I am glad if it is true.But even unbelievers get better through the natural.

The list ie still rather long,even without Joyce.

These are prominent "faith teachers".



Oh ye of little faith..;) Yes, Joyce is healed. Yes, prominent faith teacher. I would rather be called a faith teacher than a non faith teacher..;)

Oh, and for my "points" to add to the conversation, can you tell me if you find a problem with the doctrine below?

We Believe....

THE SCRIPTURES - The Bible is the inspired Word of God, the product of holy men of old who spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. The New Covenant, as recorded in the New Testament, we accept as our infallible guide in matters pertaining to conduct and doctrine (2 Tim. 3:16; 1 Thess. 2:13; 2 Peter 1:21).
We Believe....
THE GODHEAD - Our God is one, but manifested in three Persons - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, being coequal (Deut. 6:4;Phil. 2:6). God the Father is greater than all; the Sender of the Word (Logos) and the Begetter (John 14:28; John 16:28; John 1:14). The Son is the Word flesh-covered, the One Begotten, and has existed with the Father from the beginning (John 1:1; John 1:18; John 1:14). The Holy Spirit proceeds forth from both the Father and the Son and is eternal (John 14:16;John 15:26).
We Believe....
MAN, HIS FALL AND REDEMPTION - Man is a created being, made in the likeness and image of God, but through Adam's transgression and fall, sin came into the world. The Bible says "...all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God," and "...There is none righteous, no, not one." (Rom. 3:10; 3:23). Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was manifested to undo the works of the devil and gave His life and shed His blood to redeem and restore man back to God (Rom. 5:14; 1 John 3:8).
Salvation is the gift of God to man, separate from works and the Law, and is made operative by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, producing works acceptable to God (Eph. 2:8-10).
We Believe....
ETERNAL LIFE AND THE NEW BIRTH - Man's first step toward salvation is godly sorrow that worketh repentance. The New Birth is necessary to all men, and when experienced, produces eternal life (2 Cor. 7:10; John 3:3-5; 1 John 5:12).
We Believe....
WATER BAPTISM - Baptism in water is by immersion, is a direct commandment of our Lord, and is for believers only. The ordinance is a symbol of the Christian's identification with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection (Matt. 28:19; Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12; Acts 8:36-39).
The following recommendation regarding the water baptismal formula is adopted; to wit: "On the confession of your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and by His authority, I baptize you in the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Amen."
We Believe....
BAPTISM IN THE HOLY GHOST - The Baptism in the Holy Ghost and fire is a gift from God as promised by the Lord Jesus Christ to all believers in this dispensation and is received subsequent to the new birth. This experience is accompanied by the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Holy Spirit Himself gives utterance (Matt. 3:11; John 14:16,17; Acts 1:8; Acts 2:38,39; Acts 19:1-7; Acts 2:1-4).
We Believe....
SANCTIFICATION - The Bible teaches that without holiness no man can see the Lord. We believe in the Doctrine of Sanctification as a definite, yet progressive work of grace, commencing at the time of regeneration and continuing until the consummation of salvation at Christ's return (Heb. 12:14; 1 Thess. 5:23; 2 Peter 3:18; 2 Cor. 3:18; Phil. 3:12-14; 1 Cor. 1:30).
We Believe....
DIVINE HEALING - Healing is for the physical ills of the human body and is wrought by the power of God through the prayer of faith, and by the laying on of hands. It is provided for in the atonement of Christ, and is the privilege of every member of the Church today (James 5:14,15; Mark 16:18; Isa. 53:4,5; Matt. 8:17; 1 Peter 2:24).
We Believe....
RESURRECTION OF THE JUST AND THE RETURN OF OUR LORD - The angels said to Jesus' disciples, "...This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." His coming is imminent. When He comes, "...The dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air..." (Acts 1:11; 1 Thess. 4:16,17). Following the Tribulation, He shall return to earth as King of kings, and Lord of lords, and together with His saints, who shall be kings and priests, He shall reign a thousand years (Rev. 5:10;20:6).
http://www.rhema.org/images/pixel.gif

[pinetree]

Were you there when all this happened. No you were not.

Did you hear them confess, claim, etc.

The only thing that is shown is lack of understanding again.

BTW: Many you named here are not WOF.
Who? you may ask.

Do your homework before posting.
To me,if they speak faith without grace,it is the same camp.;)

[JimfromOhio]

Oh ye of little faith..;) Yes, Joyce is healed. Yes, prominent faith teacher. I would rather be called a faith teacher than a non faith teacher..;)

Oh, and for my "points" to add to the conversation, can you tell me if you find a problem with the doctrine below?

We Believe....

THE SCRIPTURES - The Bible is the inspired Word of God, the product of holy men of old who spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. The New Covenant, as recorded in the New Testament, we accept as our infallible guide in matters pertaining to conduct and doctrine (2 Tim. 3:16; 1 Thess. 2:13; 2 Peter 1:21).
We Believe....
THE GODHEAD - Our God is one, but manifested in three Persons - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, being coequal (Deut. 6:4;Phil. 2:6). God the Father is greater than all; the Sender of the Word (Logos) and the Begetter (John 14:28; John 16:28; John 1:14). The Son is the Word flesh-covered, the One Begotten, and has existed with the Father from the beginning (John 1:1; John 1:18; John 1:14). The Holy Spirit proceeds forth from both the Father and the Son and is eternal (John 14:16;John 15:26).
We Believe....
MAN, HIS FALL AND REDEMPTION - Man is a created being, made in the likeness and image of God, but through Adam's transgression and fall, sin came into the world. The Bible says "...all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God," and "...There is none righteous, no, not one." (Rom. 3:10; 3:23). Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was manifested to undo the works of the devil and gave His life and shed His blood to redeem and restore man back to God (Rom. 5:14; 1 John 3:8).
Salvation is the gift of God to man, separate from works and the Law, and is made operative by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, producing works acceptable to God (Eph. 2:8-10).
We Believe....
ETERNAL LIFE AND THE NEW BIRTH - Man's first step toward salvation is godly sorrow that worketh repentance. The New Birth is necessary to all men, and when experienced, produces eternal life (2 Cor. 7:10; John 3:3-5; 1 John 5:12).
We Believe....
WATER BAPTISM - Baptism in water is by immersion, is a direct commandment of our Lord, and is for believers only. The ordinance is a symbol of the Christian's identification with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection (Matt. 28:19; Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12; Acts 8:36-39).
The following recommendation regarding the water baptismal formula is adopted; to wit: "On the confession of your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and by His authority, I baptize you in the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Amen."
We Believe....
BAPTISM IN THE HOLY GHOST - The Baptism in the Holy Ghost and fire is a gift from God as promised by the Lord Jesus Christ to all believers in this dispensation and is received subsequent to the new birth. This experience is accompanied by the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Holy Spirit Himself gives utterance (Matt. 3:11; John 14:16,17; Acts 1:8; Acts 2:38,39; Acts 19:1-7; Acts 2:1-4).
We Believe....
SANCTIFICATION - The Bible teaches that without holiness no man can see the Lord. We believe in the Doctrine of Sanctification as a definite, yet progressive work of grace, commencing at the time of regeneration and continuing until the consummation of salvation at Christ's return (Heb. 12:14; 1 Thess. 5:23; 2 Peter 3:18; 2 Cor. 3:18; Phil. 3:12-14; 1 Cor. 1:30).
We Believe....
DIVINE HEALING - Healing is for the physical ills of the human body and is wrought by the power of God through the prayer of faith, and by the laying on of hands. It is provided for in the atonement of Christ, and is the privilege of every member of the Church today (James 5:14,15; Mark 16:18; Isa. 53:4,5; Matt. 8:17; 1 Peter 2:24).
We Believe....
RESURRECTION OF THE JUST AND THE RETURN OF OUR LORD - The angels said to Jesus' disciples, "...This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." His coming is imminent. When He comes, "...The dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air..." (Acts 1:11; 1 Thess. 4:16,17). Following the Tribulation, He shall return to earth as King of kings, and Lord of lords, and together with His saints, who shall be kings and priests, He shall reign a thousand years (Rev. 5:10;20:6).
http://www.rhema.org/images/pixel.gif
MANY will have similar statements including false churches. The key is what is behind those statements is the problem. Everything looks good until you dig deeper.

[pinetree]

Oh ye of little faith..;) Yes, Joyce is healed. Yes, prominent faith teacher. I would rather be called a faith teacher than a non faith teacher..;)

Oh, and for my "points" to add to the conversation, can you tell me if you find a problem with the doctrine below?

We Believe....

THE SCRIPTURES - The Bible is the inspired Word of God, the product of holy men of old who spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. The New Covenant, as recorded in the New Testament, we accept as our infallible guide in matters pertaining to conduct and doctrine (2 Tim. 3:16; 1 Thess. 2:13; 2 Peter 1:21).
We Believe....
THE GODHEAD - Our God is one, but manifested in three Persons - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, being coequal (Deut. 6:4;Phil. 2:6). God the Father is greater than all; the Sender of the Word (Logos) and the Begetter (John 14:28; John 16:28; John 1:14). The Son is the Word flesh-covered, the One Begotten, and has existed with the Father from the beginning (John 1:1; John 1:18; John 1:14). The Holy Spirit proceeds forth from both the Father and the Son and is eternal (John 14:16;John 15:26).
We Believe....
MAN, HIS FALL AND REDEMPTION - Man is a created being, made in the likeness and image of God, but through Adam's transgression and fall, sin came into the world. The Bible says "...all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God," and "...There is none righteous, no, not one." (Rom. 3:10; 3:23). Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was manifested to undo the works of the devil and gave His life and shed His blood to redeem and restore man back to God (Rom. 5:14; 1 John 3:8).
Salvation is the gift of God to man, separate from works and the Law, and is made operative by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, producing works acceptable to God (Eph. 2:8-10).
We Believe....
ETERNAL LIFE AND THE NEW BIRTH - Man's first step toward salvation is godly sorrow that worketh repentance. The New Birth is necessary to all men, and when experienced, produces eternal life (2 Cor. 7:10; John 3:3-5; 1 John 5:12).
We Believe....
WATER BAPTISM - Baptism in water is by immersion, is a direct commandment of our Lord, and is for believers only. The ordinance is a symbol of the Christian's identification with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection (Matt. 28:19; Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12; Acts 8:36-39).
The following recommendation regarding the water baptismal formula is adopted; to wit: "On the confession of your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and by His authority, I baptize you in the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Amen."
We Believe....
BAPTISM IN THE HOLY GHOST - The Baptism in the Holy Ghost and fire is a gift from God as promised by the Lord Jesus Christ to all believers in this dispensation and is received subsequent to the new birth. This experience is accompanied by the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Holy Spirit Himself gives utterance (Matt. 3:11; John 14:16,17; Acts 1:8; Acts 2:38,39; Acts 19:1-7; Acts 2:1-4).
We Believe....
SANCTIFICATION - The Bible teaches that without holiness no man can see the Lord. We believe in the Doctrine of Sanctification as a definite, yet progressive work of grace, commencing at the time of regeneration and continuing until the consummation of salvation at Christ's return (Heb. 12:14; 1 Thess. 5:23; 2 Peter 3:18; 2 Cor. 3:18; Phil. 3:12-14; 1 Cor. 1:30).
We Believe....
DIVINE HEALING - Healing is for the physical ills of the human body and is wrought by the power of God through the prayer of faith, and by the laying on of hands. It is provided for in the atonement of Christ, and is the privilege of every member of the Church today (James 5:14,15; Mark 16:18; Isa. 53:4,5; Matt. 8:17; 1 Peter 2:24).
We Believe....
RESURRECTION OF THE JUST AND THE RETURN OF OUR LORD - The angels said to Jesus' disciples, "...This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." His coming is imminent. When He comes, "...The dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air..." (Acts 1:11; 1 Thess. 4:16,17). Following the Tribulation, He shall return to earth as King of kings, and Lord of lords, and together with His saints, who shall be kings and priests, He shall reign a thousand years (Rev. 5:10;20:6).
http://www.rhema.org/images/pixel.gif
jere.

It does not really matter what ones particular doctrines are.
After all,we know that in all camps,there are those who vary,from the written statement.

now..there is a reason,that there is so much resistance to wof.Even folks in the world,who are spiritually dead,see the wof as the name it and claim it crowd.

On cf,and on TBN (there largest outlet,I think it is fair to say). Faith wthout grace,and doing what the op says they do,is a fact.Wof doctrinally correct or not.meaning true to wof doctrine or not.

[Jere209]

MANY will have similar statements including false churches. The key is what is behind those statements is the problem. Everything looks good until you dig deeper.
Lol, Jim. I knew you would have a problem with it. What if I said it was a Baptist doctrine?
Even a non WOF church can teach a false doctrine from scriptures. I think sometimes a person can dig too much, Jim, and analyze way too much. If you look for a cloud you'll find one, even on a sunny day. On the other hand, if you look for the sun, you'll find it on a cloudy day.

[Balance]

oohhhhhH balance....

Why is it that these wofers (leaders)mostly talk about health and wealth?

FRED PRICE - Word of Faith

http://www.crenshawchristiancenter.net/ecomm/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5&Itemid=8

Doctrinal Statement:

Jesus Christ is true God and true man.

The Holy Spirit is a divine person.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God.

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God and are in need of salvation.

Salvation has been provided through Jesus Christ for all men.

It is the will of God that every Believer be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Healing is provided in the redemptive work of Christ and is available to every Believer.

The Church consists of all those who have received Jesus Christ as their personal Savior.

There shall be a bodily resurrection of the just and of the unjust.

In the personal, visible, imminent return of Jesus Christ

In water baptism, and observance of the Lord's Supper.


JESSE DUPLANTIS - Word of Faith

http://www.jdm.org/jdmDefault.aspx?tabindex=-1&tabID=44

I did not find their statement of faith - will continue to go through site.


MARH CHIRRONA Not Word of Faith -

PAULA WHITE - NOT Word of Faith

JOEL OSTEEN - NOT Word of Faith

JOYCE MEYERS - NOT Word of Faith

CREFLO DOLLAR - NOT Word of Faith

KENNETH HAGIN JR- Word of Faith

• The Bible is the inspired Word of God.
• Our God is One, but manifested in three Persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
• Man is a created being, made in the likeness and image of God, but through Adam’s transgression and fall, sin came into the world.

• Salvation is the gift of God to man through faith in Jesus Christ.

• The New Birth is necessary to all men, and when experienced, produces eternal life.
• Baptism in water is by immersion, is a direct commandment of our Lord, and is for believers only.
• The Baptism in the Holy Ghost is a gift and is accompanied by the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues.
• We believe in sanctification, which is living a life of holiness.
• Healing is the privilege of every member of the Church today provided through Jesus’ death on the Cross.
• Jesus will return and “. . . The dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air . . .” (1 Thess. 4:16–17).”
• The one who physically dies in his sins without accepting Christ is eternally lost and, therefore, has no further opportunity of hearing the Gospel or repenting.


BENNY HINN - NOT Word of Faith

LARRY HUTCH - NOT Word of Faith.

AND THE WHOLE ENTIRE TBN (WOF) NETWORK!



Thank you - you have just confirmed what I suspected - you don't have a clue in the world who is Word of Faith and who is not Word of Faith.

And unlike you, I have provided links showing Their doctrinal stances (Word of Faith only.)

You will note - NONE of them Guarantee healing - but they say it is provided for.

Unless you can show some link that shows something different - case closed.

[Balance]

So, do you have any real proof for these accusations, or will you try to insult me again?

[Jere209]

jere.

It does not really matter what ones particular doctrines are.
After all,we know that in all camps,there are those who vary,from the written statement.

now..there is a reason,that there is so much resistance to wof.Even folks in the world,who are spiritually dead,see the wof as the name it and claim it crowd.

On cf,and on TBN (there largest outlet,I think it is fair to say). Faith wthout grace,and doing what the op says they do,is a fact.Wof doctrinally correct or not.meaning true to wof doctrine or not.
Ya could have fooled me!
Pinetree, unless you and others that believe like you, have never sit under the teaching of a WOF pastor, and/or listened to teaching tapes of the same, you cannot, nor do you have the right to judge or condemn the WOF people. (and even if you have, you still have no right to do so) For you may think you are showing just how wrong this doctrine is, but what you are doing basically is putting down and judging all who do believe as WOF. It is NOT your job to prove this wrong. With each "argument" you put up here, others will (and do) find more and more truth in WOF.

Really, it's sad. Brother against brother, and what does it say in the Bible? "brothers, this should not be so"?? It's almost like going back in time and listening to the Saducees and Pharisees vs the Christians bicker back and forth.
:(

[Jere209]

Thank you - you have just confirmed what I suspected - you don't have a clue in the world who is Word of Faith and who is not Word of Faith.

And unlike you, I have provided links showing Their doctrinal stances (Word of Faith only.)

You will note - NONE of them Guarantee healing - but they say it is provided for.

Unless you can show some link that shows something different - case closed.







:thumbsup:

[JimfromOhio]

Lol, Jim. I knew you would have a problem with it. What if I said it was a Baptist doctrine?
Even a non WOF church can teach a false doctrine from scriptures. I think sometimes a person can dig too much, Jim, and analyze way too much. If you look for a cloud you'll find one, even on a sunny day. On the other hand, if you look for the sun, you'll find it on a cloudy day.
So, its better to be gullible? :D

[JimfromOhio]

Thank you - you have just confirmed what I suspected - you don't have a clue in the world who is Word of Faith and who is not Word of Faith.

And unlike you, I have provided links showing Their doctrinal stances (Word of Faith only.)

You will note - NONE of them Guarantee healing - but they say it is provided for.

Unless you can show some link that shows something different - case closed.








Actually, most of them (perhaps all of them) fall under the category of Word of Faith even though they do NOT have direct connection to WOF. Practically ALL of them focus one or more of the following:
prosperity
health
self-fulfillment

Regarding "healing": Can you define of "when" it is provided for. I am sure you know where I am driving at.

[pinetree]

Actually, most of them (perhaps all of them) fall under the category of Word of Faith even though they do NOT have direct connection to WOF. Practically ALL of them focus one or more of the following:
prosperity
health
self-fulfillment

Regarding "healing": Can you define of "when". I am sure you know where I am driving at.
Thank you Jim.:thumbsup:

[pinetree]

Thank you - you have just confirmed what I suspected - you don't have a clue in the world who is Word of Faith and who is not Word of Faith.

And unlike you, I have provided links showing Their doctrinal stances (Word of Faith only.)

You will note - NONE of them Guarantee healing - but they say it is provided for.

Unless you can show some link that shows something different - case closed.







balance.
Now for starters,lets look at this site.The list confirms the ones mentioned before,and is now even longer..


http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/word-faith.html


http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/char/more/w-f.htm
see what you think.

[~RENEE~]

nm

[Jere209]

So, its better to be gullible? :D
no, it's not better to be gullible. You know I don't mean that. We should test everything we hear, but neither do you need to tear things apart like lions devouring a meal either..

[JimfromOhio]

no, it's not better to be gullible. You know I don't mean that. We should test everything we hear, but neither do you need to tear things apart like lions devouring a meal either..
To protect from new believers and unsuspecting believers, it is our responsibility as Christians to discern and share what we know. People who don't discern are those who are in the category of "ignorance".

[~RENEE~]

WE BELIEVE...The Scriptures are Inspired by God (http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/sft_full.cfm#1) and declare His design and plan for mankind.
WE BELIEVE...There is only One True God (http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/sft_full.cfm#2)–revealed in three persons...Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (commonly known as the Trinity).
WE BELIEVE...In the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ (http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/sft_full.cfm#3). As God's son Jesus was both human and divine.
WE BELIEVE...though originally good, Man Willingly Fell to Sin (http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/sft_full.cfm#4)–ushering evil and death, both physical and spiritual, into the world.
WE BELIEVE...Every Person Can Have Restored Fellowship with God Through 'Salvation' (http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/sft_full.cfm#5) (accepting Christ's offer of forgiveness for sin). [1 of 4 cardinal doctrines of the A/G]
WE BELIEVE...and practice two ordinances—(1) Water Baptism by Immersion (http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/sft_full.cfm#6)after repenting of one's sins and receiving Christ's gift of salvation, and (2) Holy Communion (http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/sft_full.cfm#6) (the Lord's Supper) as a symbolic remembrance of Christ's suffering and death for our salvation.
WE BELIEVE...the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a Special Experience Following Salvation (http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/sft_full.cfm#7)that empowers believers for witnessing and effective service, just as it did in New Testament times. [1 of 4 cardinal doctrines of the A/G]
WE BELIEVE... The Initial Physical Evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is ‘Speaking in Tongues,’ (http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/sft_full.cfm#8) as experienced on the Day of Pentecost and referenced throughout Acts and the Epistles.
WE BELIEVE...Sanctification Initially Occurs at Salvation (http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/sft_full.cfm#9) and is not only a declaration that a believer is holy, but also a progressive lifelong process of separating from evil as believers continually draw closer to God and become more Christlike.
WE BELIEVE...The Church has a Mission (http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/sft_full.cfm#10) to seek and save all who are lost in sin. We believe 'the Church' is the Body of Christ and consists of the people who, throughout time, have accepted God's offer of redemption (regardless of religious denomination) through the sacrificial death of His son Jesus Christ.
WE BELIEVE...A Divinely Called and Scripturally Ordained Leadership Ministry Serves the Church (http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/sft_full.cfm#11). The Bible teaches that each of us under leadership must commit ourselves to reach others for Christ, to worship Him with other believers, and to build up or edify the body of believers–the Church.
WE BELIEVE...Divine Healing of the Sick is a Privilege for Christians Today (http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/sft_full.cfm#12) and is provided for in Christ's atonement (His sacrificial death on the cross for our sins). [1 of 4 cardinal doctrines of the A/G]
WE BELIEVE...in The Blessed Hope—When Jesus Raptures His Church Prior to His Return to Earth (http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/sft_full.cfm#13) (the second coming). At this future moment in time all believers who have died will rise from their graves and will meet the Lord in the air, and Christians who are alive will be caught up with them, to be with the Lord forever. [1 of 4 cardinal doctrines of the A/G]
WE BELIEVE...in The Millennial Reign of Christ (http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/sft_full.cfm#14) when Jesus returns with His saints at His second coming and begins His benevolent rule over earth for 1,000 years. This millennial reign will bring the salvation of national Israel and the establishment of universal peace.
WE BELIEVE...A Final Judgment Will Take Place (http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/sft_full.cfm#15) for those who have rejected Christ. They will be judged for their sin and consigned to eternal punishment in a punishing lake of fire.
WE BELIEVE...and look forward to the perfect New Heavens and a New Earth (http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/sft_full.cfm#16)that Christ is preparing for all people, of all time, who have accepted Him. We will live and dwell with Him there forever following His millennial reign on Earth. 'And so shall we forever be with the Lord!'
Oh my they are just evil just evil I tell you this is the AOG statement of what I was raised under. And what I firmly believe. As you see it no different that of main stream WOF. So pinetree I guess.....................na never mind. Not gonna take the trouble.

[Balance]

balance.
Now for starters,lets look at this site.The list confirms the ones mentioned before,and is now even longer..


http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/word-faith.html


http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/char/more/w-f.htm (http://www.rapidnet.com/%7Ejbeard/bdm/Psychology/char/more/w-f.htm)
see what you think.


OK- help out here - you make an accusation

I do the research and show you that the accusation is wrong and for proof, I show the individual sites and what they say word for word.

But NOOO I'm not supposed to believe what the actual ministers say - I'm supposed to believe what a heresy hunter website says instead?

How about for starters we start with the actual words from these minister's websites instead of what someone thinks they said.

Your credibility is waining quickly.

[Balance]

Oh my they are just evil just evil I tell you this is the AOG statement of what I was raised under. And what I firmly believe. As you see it no different that of main stream WOF. So pinetree I guess.....................na never mind. Not gonna take the trouble.



RENEE - don't get discouraged - I have shown the exact same thing more than seven times - along with Foursquare and five other mainline Pentecostal denominations.

I provided the links and the word for word doctrine -

They don't seem to listen, or care, for some reason it seems that the heresy hunter websites are more credible to some people than the actual ministries.

What can you do?

[Jere209]

To protect from new believers and unsuspecting believers, it is our responsibility as Christians to discern and share what we know. People who don't discern are those who are in the category of "ignorance".
So, Jim, if I don't "discern" what you "discern", then I am ignorant and not capable of discerning the Word of God, the truth of His Word for myself?

[Jere209]

Oh my they are just evil just evil I tell you this is the AOG statement of what I was raised under. And what I firmly believe. As you see it no different that of main stream WOF. So pinetree I guess.....................na never mind. Not gonna take the trouble.

I'm AOG. :)

[JimfromOhio]

So, Jim, if I don't "discern" what you "discern", then I am ignorant and not capable of discerning the Word of God, the truth of His Word for myself?
I do believe very much in being a responsible Christian while at the same time, Christians are responsible to exercise caution and discernment, especially in temporal and spiritual matters. "Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you? -- unless indeed you are disqualified." (2 Corinthians 13:5 NKJV)

That's all I am saying. However whoever choose to discern or not is between God and the believer. If a Christian is a member of a Church, church discipline might be involved. At one time, we had one member who was incorporating Word of Faith doctrines in church, the Elders and pastors called this person in private into the Pastor's office and they explained to this person that Word of Faith do not fit with their statement of faith.

[JimfromOhio]

I'm AOG. :)
From my understanding AoG adopted Word of Faith's doctrines. :wave:

[Jere209]

From my understanding AoG adopted Word of Faith's doctrines. :wave:
Hmm, must be why I love to listen to Gloria Copeland..:)

[Jere209]

I do believe very much in being a responsible Christian while at the same time, Christians are responsible to exercise caution and discernment, especially in temporal and spiritual matters. "Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you? -- unless indeed you are disqualified." (2 Corinthians 13:5 NKJV)

That's all I am saying. However whoever choose to discern or not is between God and the believer. If a Christian is a member of a Church, church discipline might be involved. At one time, we had one member who was incorporating Word of Faith doctrines in church, the Elders and pastors called this person in private into the Pastor's office and they explained to this person that Word of Faith do not fit with their statement of faith.
safe answer, Jim. ;)

[pinetree]

OK- help out here - you make an accusation

I do the research and show you that the accusation is wrong and for proof, I show the individual sites and what they say word for word.

But NOOO I'm not supposed to believe what the actual ministers say - I'm supposed to believe what a heresy hunter website says instead?

How about for starters we start with the actual words from these minister's websites instead of what someone thinks they said.

Your credibility is waining quickly.



balance.
though maybe you seek to discredit me,that does not make it so. Now..

Kenny Copeland
Jesse duplantis
Mark Chirrona
Paula White
Joel Osteen
Joyce meyers
Creflo Dollar
Juanita Byrom
Kenneth Hagin
Benny Hinn
Larry Hutch
Morris Cerullo
Rod Parsley
Robert Tilton
Marilyn Hickey
Paul Crouch===tbn

And others,all preach the health and wealth doctrine.

We can go on and on,with showing links and such.
But we all know it is the same wof Hagin,Copeland stuff,and you know it.

Maybe some have left the roster,but we all know it is the same thing.:D


I will let my post stand,and like Jim said ,post 47,still all the same message.

[Balance]

You can say it as many times as you want - it doesn't change the truth.

I'm comfortable at leaving this now - it's obvious.

And thank you to everyone who has repped me!

I appreciate it!

[dkbwarrior]

Hmm, must be why I love to listen to Gloria Copeland..:)

She is awesome, isn't she? Such a wonderful representative of our gracious Lord and Saviour.

And Ken is pretty awesome too. I try to send them a check everytime the accuser of the brethren influences someone to start another WOF bashing thread. I've been going through alot of checks lately.

Peace...

[pinetree]

You can say it as many times as you want - it doesn't change the truth.

I'm comfortable at leaving this now - it's obvious.

And thank you to everyone who has repped me!

I appreciate it!



I would like to also thank all the wofers that repped balance,good to keep the reps in your family!:D

[~RENEE~]

I'm AOG. :)I knew I liked you for some reason

[~RENEE~]

dp

[pinetree]

She is awesome, isn't she? Such a wonderful representative of our gracious Lord and Saviour.

And Ken is pretty awesome too. I try to send them a check everytime the accuser of the brethren influences someone to start another WOF bashing thread. I've been going through alot of checks lately.

Peace...
hey,whats a few more faith seeds..:D

[pinetree]

no, it's not better to be gullible. You know I don't mean that. We should test everything we hear, but neither do you need to tear things apart like lions devouring a meal either..
jere..

I know as you said,that you studied politics.

Now..

When you come to a debate thread,where folks on both sides are hotly debating,as Paul did,and then say we are devouring one another (post 51),it is a political tactic,to divert the issue.And we need not get personal.

We are not bickering as you said in post 44. We are debating.

[Jere209]

She is awesome, isn't she? Such a wonderful representative of our gracious Lord and Saviour.

And Ken is pretty awesome too. I try to send them a check everytime the accuser of the brethren influences someone to start another WOF bashing thread. I've been going through alot of checks lately.

Peace...
I love her.. And, lol, him too. I was listening to her series "God can turn it around" and my daughter comes running out of the bedroom, and said "did you say something?"..lol, she thought it was me talking..:) I liked that compliment!
Yeah, that's a thought. :)

[Jere209]

jere..

I know as you said,that you studied politics.

Now..

When you come to a debate thread,where folks on both sides are hotly debating,as Paul did,and then say we are devouring one another (post 51),it is a political tactic,to divert the issue.And we need not get personal.

We are not bickering as you said in post 44. We are debating.
Pinetree, nope. I did not study politics. As a matter of fact, I'm a Bible history major. And, you need to quit talking down to me like I do not know my way around a debate thread. I did not state that as a political tactic, nor to divert an issue, but to rather try to get you to see exactly what you are doing.
You aren't debating. You attack.

[~RENEE~]

Pinetree, nope. I did not study politics. As a matter of fact, I'm a Bible history major. And, you need to quit talking down to me like I do not know my way around a debate thread. I did not state that as a political tactic, nor to divert an issue, but to rather try to get you to see exactly what you are doing.
You aren't debating. You attack.yep. There are a few attacks going on in this forum tonight. If I was the one attacking I'd be kicked off in a heartbeat. BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT.

Actually Pine claims to be my bud. Well he either hasn't seen my faith icon or he ain't truly my bud. I'd like to know which but don't think that's gonna happen.

You know this get's old. This whole. I know what you believe you don't know what you belive. But I do. hahahahahahahahaha. It don't make it right it just makes it very old.

[Jere209]

yep. There are a few attacks going on in this forum tonight. If I was the one attacking I'd be kicked off in a heartbeat. BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT.

Actually Pine claims to be my bud. Well he either hasn't seen my faith icon or he ain't truly my bud. I'd like to know which but don't think that's gonna happen.

You know this get's old. This whole. I know what you believe you don't know what you belive. But I do. hahahahahahahahaha. It don't make it right it just makes it very old.
yeah, I know Renee..Like you, I know what I believe. It has taken me years to get here, to be grounded in the Word, to rise above the hurts caused by other denominational churches, and find the Truth in God's Word. For myself. To be able to not inflict my pain and hurt upon some other soul in trying to help them see the error of other's ways. To pray earnestly for ways to try and help others find Jesus for themselves, and not alienate them in the process. To always steer them to the truth, not what I viewed as the truth at the time, just a twisted view of reality with a bent of pain thrown in for good measure.
Jesus said to be as wise as serpents, and gentle as doves. He also said we are to be the salt and light of this world. If I were a new Christian and this "salt" here was meant to "flavor" my walk with the Lord, I'd run as fast as I could. You all may be debating, or what you think as debating, but to an outsider reading this, you're doing anything but.

[map4]

And we need not get personal.

.


:idea: pinetree...what a novel idea! :clap:

Wonder if anyone will take your advice??

(won't be holding my breath on that one) :sigh:

[NorrinRadd]

...


I'm glad you brought in the link - I'd encourage people to read the articles. But remember - they are just that - articles - teachings - not doctrine.



Um... Isn't that a bit like saying "they are ideas, not concepts"? :confused:

[NorrinRadd]

Here's one example, I know many of us admire for both A.B. Simpson in which he founded Christian and Missionary Alliance Church (C&MA). A.W. Tozer is among one of great leaders of C&MA organization.

Back in 2003, members has left C&MA when they announced that Word-Faith is going to be accepted and endorsed by C&MA in their official magazine Alife (Alliance Life), C&MA Online Magazine, "Are You Ready For A Miracle?", by Jonathan Graf, Director For Prayer Mobilization, September 2003. (http://www.alliancelife.org/current/practical-0309.php)

You won't find any of their (Simpson & Tozer) writings talking about Word of Faith doctrines.

I began my Christian life in CMA churches and fellowships, and have read stuff by and about Simpson. At times, his "faith-healing" beliefs actually went *beyond* what most WoF teachers would teach.

[Jere209]

well, I'm off to bed everyone.
See you tomorrow..

[map4]

well, I'm off to bed everyone.
See you tomorrow..


Good night Jere!!

[NorrinRadd]

From my understanding AoG adopted Word of Faith's doctrines. :wave:

They have things in common. However, the AG explicitly disavows "Positive Confession" in an official "position paper." (http://www.ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/pp_4183_confession.cfm)

This article (http://pentecostalevangel.ag.org/DailyBoostArchive/April_08/20080424.cfm) in the Pentecostal Evangel is also relevant.

[NorrinRadd]

...

Sorry - for all your study - you also seem to have fallen into a real prevalent false teaching - there is no gift of discernment -

The closest is the Discerning of spirits.

Which is the most often mis-quoted by those whose whole purpose is to criticize ministers they do not agree with.



Well, "discerning of spirits" is never defined in Scripture. The traditional Pentecostal understanding (assumption?) is that is basically a one-off of Haley Joel Osmet, but instead of "I see dead people," it's "I see demons and sometimes angels." Scripture doesn't use the term that way. AFAICT, "diakrisis" and various forms thereof are not used in any passages that explicitly deal with demonization, angels, or exorcism.

However, in the local context of 1 Cor. 12-14, a related word *is* used -- "diakrino," in 14:29. In 12:10, "tongues" and "interpretation of tongues" are paired, as they are often throughout the context of ch. 12-14, and notable in 14:27. Also in 12:10, "prophecy" and "distinguishing/discerning/judging of spirits" are paired just as "prophet" and "judge" are in 14:29. Based on that, it is at least reasonable to believe that "discerning of spirits" is the Spirit-given ability to judge/discern the source of a "prophetic" utterance.

In that case, it would pretty clearly apply if a self-proclaimed "prophet" claimed, "Jesus walked into my room and told me..." It is not quite so clear whether it would apply to any and every sermon and doctrinal message; the context of 1 Cor. 12-14 seems to make at least some distinction between "prophecy" and "teaching," but elsewhere "prophecy" seems to at least potentially be a catch-all term that could include "teaching."

[NorrinRadd]

...
Back in 2003, members has left C&MA when they announced that Word-Faith is going to be accepted and endorsed by C&MA in their official magazine Alife (Alliance Life), C&MA Online Magazine, "Are You Ready For A Miracle?", by Jonathan Graf, Director For Prayer Mobilization, September 2003. (http://www.alliancelife.org/current/practical-0309.php) ...

I get a 404, File not Found message from that link. :o

The *PDF* version of that issue is here (http://www.cmalliance.org/whoweare/archives/alifepdf/AW-2003-09-01.pdf#search=%22ready%20for%20a%20miracle%22), I think. The article is in the "Abundant Life" section of the TOC.

[pinetree]

:idea: pinetree...what a novel idea! :clap:

Wonder if anyone will take your advice??

(won't be holding my breath on that one) :sigh:
How is my buddy doing?:)

Hope you did not get too soggy last week.

Good to see ya!:thumbsup:

[dkbwarrior]

Well, "discerning of spirits" is never defined in Scripture. The traditional Pentecostal understanding (assumption?) is that is basically a one-off of Haley Joel Osmet, but instead of "I see dead people," it's "I see demons and sometimes angels." Scripture doesn't use the term that way. AFAICT, "diakrisis" and various forms thereof are not used in any passages that explicitly deal with demonization, angels, or exorcism.

However, in the local context of 1 Cor. 12-14, a related word *is* used -- "diakrino," in 14:29. In 12:10, "tongues" and "interpretation of tongues" are paired, as they are often throughout the context of ch. 12-14, and notable in 14:27. Also in 12:10, "prophecy" and "distinguishing/discerning/judging of spirits" are paired just as "prophet" and "judge" are in 14:29. Based on that, it is at least reasonable to believe that "discerning of spirits" is the Spirit-given ability to judge/discern the source of a "prophetic" utterance.

In that case, it would pretty clearly apply if a self-proclaimed "prophet" claimed, "Jesus walked into my room and told me..." It is not quite so clear whether it would apply to any and every sermon and doctrinal message; the context of 1 Cor. 12-14 seems to make at least some distinction between "prophecy" and "teaching," but elsewhere "prophecy" seems to at least potentially be a catch-all term that could include "teaching."

I agree with the traditional Pentecostal view of the gift. While I find your word association interesting, we have no supernatural descriptive examples in the Bible (that I can recall off-hand) to draw from to substantiate or lend credence to your semi-conclusion.

We do however, have scores of supernatural descriptive passages showing us that at times people have seen (discerned) angels and/or demons. These examples show us that people at times do supernaturally see angels and demons.

I think many are misunderstanding the gift of discerning of spirits which is found in 1 Ciorinthians 12:

1Now concerning spiritual gifts...
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
-1 Corinthians 1, 8-11

All of these gifts are supernatural/spiritual in nature; that is, they allow one for a moment to do something that we normally wouldn't be able to do.

To discern is a verb and it means literally to see. Notice it is not the gift of discernment in a general sense, as in a supernatural ability to see everything in the universe. It has a much more narrow focus, that is, it gives the recipient the supernatural ability to discern/see spirits.

A good example of this gift in operation was when Elijah prayed that Elishas eyes would be opened so that he could see the hosts of angels that were surrounding them.

I am not aware of any supernatural gift in the sense that it is often described on these forums, of being able to know when you brother is right or wrong, and then letting everyone know about it.

All of us as christians have the Holy Spirit, and are to judge what is scriptural or not, but there is no special gift to this effect, above and beyond that which is given to us all.

Some in leadership positions may well be expected/required by their office to rebuke and/or correct those under their leadership, but the idea of laymen rebuking their leadership, or worse yet, others leadership and those around them in a public setting is not a gift mentioned in the New Testament.

The New Testament does have something to say on this subject however:

11Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
-James 4:11-12

I would note that this scripture equates judgement of ones brother with speaking evil of ones brother. From this I think one could reasonably conclude that there is no spiritual gift of judging ones brother, nor is their a spiritual gift of speaking evil of ones brother, the two components of this so-called gift of 'discernment' or 'watchman' or 'perceiver' that I keep hearing about.

Peace...

[NorrinRadd]

I agree with the traditional Pentecostal view of the gift. While I find your word association interesting, we have no supernatural descriptive examples in the Bible (that I can recall off-hand) to draw from to substantiate or lend credence to your semi-conclusion.

We do however, have scores of supernatural descriptive passages showing us that at times people have seen (discerned) angels and/or demons. These examples show us that people at times do supernaturally see angels and demons.

Of course. But diakrisis is not used in any of those accounts, AFAIK.



I think many are misunderstanding the gift of discerning of spirits which is found in 1 Ciorinthians 12:

I agree. But of course I don't think I'm one of the many. I think those holding the traditional Pentecostal view are the mistaken many.



1Now concerning spiritual gifts...
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
-1 Corinthians 1, 8-11

All of these gifts are supernatural/spiritual in nature; that is, they allow one for a moment to do something that we normally wouldn't be able to do.

Right. Like when someone presents a supposedly prophetic utterance, and the Spirit gifts others to discern/distinguish/judge whether the utterance really came from the Holy Spirit or another spirit.



To discern is a verb and it means literally to see. Notice it is not the gift of discernment in a general sense, as in a supernatural ability to see everything in the universe. It has a much more narrow focus, that is, it gives the recipient the supernatural ability to discern/see spirits.

While the English word, "discern" may mean "see," that is not the meaning of the Greek word, "diakrisis." The NASB and especially the ISV, NIV, TNIV, ESV, and Amp translations are worthy of notice here.

[TheBloodOfJesus]

Right. Like when someone presents a supposedly prophetic utterance, and the Spirit gifts others to discern/distinguish/judge whether the utterance really came from the Holy Spirit or another spirit...
.
Hello Surfer man.
I am only curisous if you have any scriptural evidence that this is the purpose of that gift.
Thanks
Peace

[pinetree]

Hello Surfer man.
I am only curisous if you have any scriptural evidence that this is the purpose of that gift.
Thanks
Peace
what else would the gift be for?:scratch:
The gift is to discern..
whether in our dealings in the church,or the world.

[BenAdam]

She is awesome, isn't she? Such a wonderful representative of our gracious Lord and Saviour.

..

Yes, that mocks on air those that do not agree with her.

[ARBITER01]

I agree with the traditional Pentecostal view of the gift. While I find your word association interesting, we have no supernatural descriptive examples in the Bible (that I can recall off-hand) to draw from to substantiate or lend credence to your semi-conclusion.

We do however, have scores of supernatural descriptive passages showing us that at times people have seen (discerned) angels and/or demons. These examples show us that people at times do supernaturally see angels and demons.

I think many are misunderstanding the gift of discerning of spirits which is found in 1 Ciorinthians 12:

1Now concerning spiritual gifts...
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
-1 Corinthians 1, 8-11

All of these gifts are supernatural/spiritual in nature; that is, they allow one for a moment to do something that we normally wouldn't be able to do.

To discern is a verb and it means literally to see. Notice it is not the gift of discernment in a general sense, as in a supernatural ability to see everything in the universe. It has a much more narrow focus, that is, it gives the recipient the supernatural ability to discern/see spirits.

A good example of this gift in operation was when Elijah prayed that Elishas eyes would be opened so that he could see the hosts of angels that were surrounding them.

I am not aware of any supernatural gift in the sense that it is often described on these forums, of being able to know when you brother is right or wrong, and then letting everyone know about it.

All of us as christians have the Holy Spirit, and are to judge what is scriptural or not, but there is no special gift to this effect, above and beyond that which is given to us all.

Some in leadership positions may well be expected/required by their office to rebuke and/or correct those under their leadership, but the idea of laymen rebuking their leadership, or worse yet, others leadership and those around them in a public setting is not a gift mentioned in the New Testament.

The New Testament does have something to say on this subject however:

11Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
-James 4:11-12

I would note that this scripture equates judgement of ones brother with speaking evil of ones brother. From this I think one could reasonably conclude that there is no spiritual gift of judging ones brother, nor is their a spiritual gift of speaking evil of ones brother, the two components of this so-called gift of 'discernment' or 'watchman' or 'perceiver' that I keep hearing about.

Peace...


As far as the gifts go, if you don't specifically operate in some of these gifts, then you are going strickly off book knowledge and what the greek and hebrew is limited in teaching you. If you have no direct revelation from GOD (and yes HE does teach you by The Holy Spirit, especially on the power gifts) on how to utilize the gifts HE has given you correctly, and the experience associated with their use, then you are stuck with just book knowledge and whatever you are able to possibly gleen out of it.

And you are also stuck with a Christianity that is built around form instead of reality. GOD did not bring us into HIS kingdom just so we can become puffed-up libraries, we are to have works and deeds following us, testifying of GOD being present in us and with us. HE is our true credentials.

There is a difference between discerning of spirits and spiritual discernment. Everyone has spiritual discernment who is born again, and it will show a whole lot more about what a person is doing right or wrong whereas discerning of spirits is limited to just spirits and their activity, hence why we are to operate in them to really know.


As far as judging,..of course,... people don't want judging going on, they don't want accountability before GOD and HIS children for their actions, be they wrong or right.

The church of corinth had a fornicator among them, and they were doing nothing about it. What did Paul do? He rebuked the whole church before everyone, and was not nice about it either. Was that judging? Of course it was, just like when Peter condemned Anania and Sapharia, that was judging? Absolutely! Are we going to complain to GOD about Peter and the actions that occured through him? Go ahead and try.

In fact, Jesus himself gave us commandment to do judging at times,..


Mt 18:15-17

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.



It's quite clear.

The "judge not lest ye be judged" wild card that people love to throw up before others all the time was strickly dealing with hypocritical judgement out of a person, not standard judging, as Jesus clearly pointed out in that section of scripture. It's obvious that people are just using that section of scripture wrongly before others.

GOD is not in the business of hiding your sin for you, and HE will use HIS sons to uncover you before others if you wish to persist. You and anyone else can complain about judging of brothers and sisters, but when you are actually doing wrong things, it is not hypocritical or wrong in the least bit to do so.

[ARBITER01]

Hello Surfer man.
I am only curisous if you have any scriptural evidence that this is the purpose of that gift.
Thanks
Peace

The gift discerns spirits, whether it be The Holy Spirit, Angelic spirits, the human spirit, or an evil spirit.

The gift will tell you what spirit is in operation, whether it is around you or through a person, and it was exactly how people like Jeremiah knew that Hananiah, an actual prophet of GOD, had spoken presumptiously by his human spirit instead of The Holy Spirit.

[Balance]

duplicate

[Balance]

Yes, that mocks on air those that do not agree with her.

How is that any different from those that public ally mock all things WoF?

Why have you never mentioned those?

[BenAdam]

How is that any different from those that public ally mock all things WoF?

Why have you never mentioned those?

Well for one, mocking a doctrine and mocking a person are 2 distinct things.

Second, the people here that are mocking other people need to repent, it happens on both sides of the argument.

Third, I don't see anyone here saying that the mockers here are gracious examples of the Lord.

[dkbwarrior]

Right. Like when someone presents a supposedly prophetic utterance, and the Spirit gifts others to discern/distinguish/judge whether the utterance really came from the Holy Spirit or another spirit.



Hello Surfer man.
I am only curisous if you have any scriptural evidence that this is the purpose of that gift.


I am curious too.

While 1 Corinthians 14 does give instruction for one to prophesy and the other to judge (diakrino), it does not give instruction for the other to judge the spirit of the prophet, but the prophecy itself. It does not call this judging a spiritual gift, nor does it in any way infer, at least to me, that this is some supernatural judging. I read it as judging prophecy against the written Word.

This was a very interesti