Is WoF anti-humility?

[Tamara224]

Well, is it?

[churchlady]

Well, is it?

When I first came into Wof teaching about 3 decades ago, and was excited by it, but very ignorant of it's proper application to life, I would say yes, there was a lot of pride and foolishness. I am ashamed of how naive and dumb I was.

But as I continued to sit under the teaching everyday, and gained the understanding that this is all about believing the Word, putting it first place, and letting the Spirit quicken it and lead, that pride had to begin to go.

The Word and the Spirit work together. He gives us the priviledge to co-labor by being the earthen vessel of this great treasure.

I would say it is quite typical for newly beginning Wof adherants to be prideful and cocky with what they are being taught. But believe me, putting it into practice will take care of that, over time. Meanwhile, the Word will test their heart, to see if they will keep standing and not draw back.

[Tamara224]

Thanks for your response, CL.

Sometimes it just seems to me like anytime the subject of humility comes up, certain WoF posters (certainly not all) resist it. For example, they start talking about false humility and who they are in Christ, their authority, how they are "seated in the heavenlies", etc. Disproportionately so.

Many of the comments make me wonder if it's just "normal" immaturity (the kind we see in any denom) or if there is something about WoF teachings that promote a "higher seat" mentality.

In reality, I think that many Charismatic/Pentecostal doctrines lead people to a rather prideful attitude - i.e. "we're full gospel", etc. It kind of engenders feelings of superiority to cessationists, for one thing.

[Alpine]

Sorry, I've met Baptists who are hard core anti humility. In fact, if you disagree with them on a point, they raise the bible and say what they believe is in the book, so it's true. That's not to say all Baptists are like that, but the more conservative ones tend to be.

[Tamara224]

Sorry, I've met Baptists who are hard core anti humility. In fact, if you disagree with them on a point, they raise the bible and say what they believe is in the book, so it's true. That's not to say all Baptists are like that, but the more conservative ones tend to be.


:scratch: So because some Baptists are anti-humility, non-Baptists aren't?

Is that what you're saying?

If not, please clarify. This thread isn't about Baptists.

[Alpine]

:scratch: So because some Baptists are anti-humility, non-Baptists aren't?

Is that what you're saying?

If not, please clarify. This thread isn't about Baptists.

No, that's not at all what I was saying. I was comparing what you said about WOF believers to people I've met who were Baptists, very arrogant, stubborn people. I know all Baptists aren't like that, but I also think not all WOF believers are like that either.

[Tamara224]

No, that's not at all what I was saying. I was comparing what you said about WOF believers to people I've met who were Baptists, very arrogant, stubborn people. I know all Baptists aren't like that, but I also think not all WOF believers are like that either.


I don't think all WoF believers are like that either.

I was wondering about WoF doctrine, not WoF people. If I had meant WoF people, I would have said "Are WoFers anti-humility".

:wave:

[Alpine]

I don't think all WoF believers are like that either.

I was wondering about WoF doctrine, not WoF people. If I had meant WoF people, I would have said "Are WoFers anti-humility".

:wave:

oh, I see. You didn't mention the doctrine part in your post. :)

[Tamara224]

oh, I see. You didn't mention the doctrine part in your post. :)


Sorry about that. I think I did clarify a bit in my second post, though.

[Faithful Love]

I think that those who are confident in who they are in Christ and their righteousness in Him are a threat to those who are not, and their confidence is erroneously judged as pride.

When I first came into WOF (19+ yrs ago) I thought some of the preachers were pretty cocky. However, I soon learned that when you know that you know that you know Him and your right standing with Him, it is a wonderful place to be - albeit threatening to those who don't know that glorious position.

[Tamara224]

I think that those who are confident in who they are in Christ and their righteousness in Him are a threat to those who are not, and their confidence is erroneously judged as pride.

Hmmm. Well, I guess I can see how that might be true in some cases.

But... it is statements like this that do tend to make me think WoF is anti-humility.

Because the Bible tells us not to think too highly of ourselves. A person may be very confident that their place is at the right hand of the Father, but Jesus warned us not to seat ourselves at the place of honor, lest He move us down to a lower seat. And that the first among us will be those who are servants, not those who are confident in who they are.


"But HE WHO BOASTS IS TO BOAST IN THE LORD. For it is not he who commends himself that is approved, but he whom the Lord commends. " (2 Cor 10:17-18)

It just seems to me that the focus is all on self. Who I am in Christ...rather than who Christ is.

2 Corinthians 12:9-10
9And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness " Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.
10Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

If God's power is perfected in our weakness, why would we focus so much on our (supposed) strengths (i.e. confidence)?

[map4]

I talk about who we are in Christ a lot.

The thing is, when I realized what that really means, it helped me to understand humility. I had to see who and what I was before. Then, I saw what He did for me. How he took my sins and punishment upon Him. I saw what He saved us from. I didn't deserve any of it but He did it anyway because He loves us.
Then, He tells us that we are made righteous in Him.
We are seated in heavenly places in Him.
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me, and so on.

I used to be very shy, insecure and all of that ugly stuff. Realizing how much God loves me and realizing that everything I am is literally in Him...that really did something for me. I don't have to be shy or insecure or good enough or any of that stuff. Because of what He did for me and who I am to Him. He is in me and I am in Him. I am free because of His grace, mercy and love. It set me free from a lot of bondage.

So, when things get tough, and they do, I focus on Him and all that He did. He has already overcome the world. For us. And we are in Him so we are overcomers. I hold on to that hope that because of Him, I can and will get through anything. Because of His strength. Because, in His name, we have authority over our enemy. Eveything is because of Him.

So, I guess it is confidence. But it is confidence in Him. Faith and trust in Him. Because He lives in and through me.

Tamara, you seem like a very confident person. Not afraid to tell it like it is.
I was never that way. I still struggle with it at times. But, because of the Holy Spirit, I do have a boldness I never had before.

So when I talk about being in Christ or in Him...well, it is what it is. In Him we live and have our being. In Him we are more than conquerors. In Him we are made righteous before God. In Him, we have everything. Without Him, we are hopeless and utterly lost. So, everything that "I" am, I owe to Him. It's all about Him.

[dkbwarrior]

WOF doctrine, by its very nature promotes true humilty.

True humility is not a place of saying, "I am humble, see how humble I am?"

True humility is exchanging our life for His, and allowing the image of Christ to manifest itself in our lives.

The height of pride is to say, "My experience trumps the Word of Christ, and the revelation of the Father. My experience is truth, and interprets what I want to believe God is saying."

The height of humility is to say, "My experience means nothing, I count it but dung for the excellency of the aquisition of the knowledge of Christ made manifest in my life."

Of course, false humility always sees the image of Christ as arrogance, and misinterprets it as pride because of hardness of heart. This is because the God of this world has blinded the minds of those that believe not the promises, and would rather interpret scripture privately by their own experience, rather than by the unction of the Holy Spirit of God.

Peace...

[ARBITER01]

Well, is it?

Yea.

[Jimbeaux]

Not all WOF are conceited, me-centered believers but I am finding that most of those who post in this forum are. Usually it comes across as people with deflated self-images trying to pump themselves us.

They could use a dose of Lewis:
[Many people]look on things as if man were the centre of them. Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake. “Thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.” We were made not primarily that we may love God (though we were made for that too) but that God may love us, that we may become objects in which the Divine love may rest “well pleased.” (C.S. Lewis from The Problem of Pain, pg. 388 here (http://books.google.com/books?id=hZykVqpl1iIC&pg=PA388&lpg=PA388&dq=%22Man+is+not+the+centre.+God+does+not+exist+for+the+sake+of+man.%22+Man+does+not+exist+for+his+own+sake.&source=web&ots=dgRIvDCFZj&sig=ZvdCho7pHGGF4KYzsi4gUzPUDiQ&hl=en&sa=X&oi=b))
~Jim

The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.

[pdudgeon]

map4 and dkbwarrior have said it all.
the feeling that WOF have when we realize who we are in Christ is one of gratitude, not pride or humility.

think about it....gratitude and pride cannot mix, for pride stems from an unbalanced view as does humility. Gratitude on the other hand rightly values the gift, the giver, and the receiver.

the proud person is the one facing away from Christ.

[Jimbeaux]

map4 and dkbwarrior have said it all.
the feeling that WOF have when we realize who we are in Christ is one of gratitude, not pride or humility.

think about it....gratitude and pride cannot mix, for pride stems from an unbalanced view as does humility. Gratitude on the other hand rightly values the gift, the giver, and the receiver.

the proud person is the one facing away from Christ.

Then why does all this WOF chest-thumping seem to come across as arrogance? :confused:

~Jim
The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.

[TheBloodOfJesus]

Stating who you are in Christ is the greastest form of humility. It frist states who He is, then confesses what we are not, and then bows to His statements in deference to our own serf awareness.
Perople can see arrogance anywhere if they want to.
There is a lot of "want to" here.

[map4]

Then why does all this WOF chest-thumping seem to come across as arrogance? :confused:

~Jim

The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.




Maybe the same way that others here seem to come across with false humility?

If you have to remind yourself and others how humble you are, are you really humble?

Telling everyone else, be humble like I am?

Even that points to self.

We all know that all we can do here is read words on a computer screen. The heart and emotion do not always come through. So the intent can and is misread from both sides.

There are many here that are non wof that come across as arrogant to me. You come across that way to me, Jim. Do you mean to be that way?
Should I name other names that seem arrogant?

Some come across as false humility. They seem to try so hard to show others their humility.

But, like I said in another thread, we only see things in the ones we disagree with. And overlook it in the ones on 'our side'.

All I can say is that you don't know me, which seems a cop out. But what else can I say?
My hope and confidence...everything I am is in Christ. I live in Him. I believe in Him. I know He will take care of everything for me. I am not saying bad things won't happen. But when they do...I have faith in His grace, mercy, love, everything about Him, that He will pull me through. And I stand on that. If it seems like arrogance to say 'my Father will take care of this', well, I'm sorry. I don't take pride in myself or ability other than that He causes me to triumph in all things. Him working through me. If I boast and say I am in Christ...who is getting the glory? Me? How can I be if I am saying it is IN CHRIST that I am anything at all? It is IN CHRIST that we are conquerors. It is IN CHRIST that I have access to my Father and have eternal life.

I guess we just see things differently. But to me, it points to Christ.

In my case, it is a self deflated image. Isn't that what it is supposed to be. I am nothing and He is my everything. Am I trying to pump myself up? Before a battle, or a football game or anything like that...the leader gives pep talks. Think of it that way. Giving myself a pep talk by reminding myself that I can't do this...win this battle. But God can. And I am in Him so I 'pump myself up' in that knowledge. That He will do whatever needs to be done. I don't have to. I rest in Him and His promises.

[TheBloodOfJesus]

I think this is just another variation of the atheist's "who do you think you are" argument.The same resentment that causes anti-Chirstians to bow up at our implication that they are sinners that need to be saved is manifesting here as resentment at WOfers confidence in what He has done for us.
Of course the true issues are therefore first their resentment, and then the unbelief.
So the question should be: Does doubt and unbelief always result in resentment? Or does it only result in those who want to see the worst in others?

[JimfromOhio]

Anit-humility basically means biblically-coherent theology of the language of empowerment rather using terms "destiny", "favor", "promotion" and "increase". This becomes an opportunity for spiritual pride and an occasion of self-conceit where we congratulate ourselves for our spirituality. Spiritual pride, the ultimate sin, in action - the sin of believing in one's own righteousness. Pride is flesh-lead based on flesh's efforts. The great enemy of faith is a complacent spirit, an attitude of self-satisfaction with the status quo.

We all know that through the Holy Spirit through God's grace, in our humility we hungered and thirsted for the righteousness that we knew we can't attain on our own. My perspective from what I am reading from the Scriptures, that if we desire honor and glory from God, we must display humility first. That is contrary to our earthly philosophy, which exalts pride which is often used through works of choice.


Beatitudes Instead of poverty of spirit we find the rankest kind of pride;

instead of mourners we find pleasure seekers;

instead of meekness, arrogance;

instead of hunger after righteousness we hear men saying, `I am rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing';

instead of mercy we find cruelty; instead of purity of heart, corrupt imaginings;

instead of peacemakers we find men quarrelsome and resentful;

instead of rejoicing in mistreatment we find them fighting back with every weapon at their command. Of this kind of moral stuff civilized society is composed. A.W. Tozer

[churchlady]

Not all WOF are conceited, me-centered believers but I am finding that most of those who post in this forum are. Usually it comes across as people with deflated self-images trying to pump themselves us

This judgement of your fellow christians' HEART is not permitted by the scriptures. As a pastor, you know this.

[ARBITER01]

WOF doctrine, by its very nature promotes true humilty.

True humility is not a place of saying, "I am humble, see how humble I am?"

True humility is exchanging our life for His, and allowing the image of Christ to manifest itself in our lives.

The height of pride is to say, "My experience trumps the Word of Christ, and the revelation of the Father. My experience is truth, and interprets what I want to believe God is saying."

The height of humility is to say, "My experience means nothing, I count it but dung for the excellency of the aquisition of the knowledge of Christ made manifest in my life."

Of course, false humility always sees the image of Christ as arrogance, and misinterprets it as pride because of hardness of heart. This is because the God of this world has blinded the minds of those that believe not the promises, and would rather interpret scripture privately by their own experience, rather than by the unction of the Holy Spirit of God.

Peace...


Actions speak louder than words.

GOD moved through Jesus in action, and we are to reach that same point as He did. I want to allow GOD to put those words I read into daily practice, just exactly like Jesus, rather than just amass knowledge of them over the course of my life.

[JimfromOhio]

This judgement of your fellow christians' HEART is not permitted by the scriptures. As a pastor, you know this.


Gee, I wonder why there are those who question a person's lack of faith because that is related to the heart. ;)

[TheBloodOfJesus]

This judgement of your fellow christians' HEART is not permitted by the scriptures. As a pastor, you know this.


And yet the vast majority of the criticism of WoF is based solely on manufactured evidence relating to our motives. The accusers have the "power" to see into your heart and "discern" that your faith is actually some evil thing. WoFers are "self centers" "greedy" "arrogant" "presumptuous" etc etc. All these are judgments of the heart and issue forth from a violation of the love commandment. Love believes all things... that means love believes the best about your brother. Love does not invent evil in the heart of others. Love does not accuse others of things that cannot be known. They want to incriminate the innocent, and what better way to do it than to assume the role of the devil and accuse by suggestion. Subtle... but evil none-the-less.

[TheBloodOfJesus]

Gee, I wonder why there are those who question a person's lack of faith because that is related to the heart. ;)
Lol...
I do not question their lack of faith... I am quite sure of it.^_^

Kidding...:D

[JimfromOhio]

And yet the vast majority of the criticism of WoF is based solely on manufactured evidence relating to our motives. The accusers have the "power" to see into your heart and "discern" that your faith is actually some evil thing. WoFers are "self centers" "greedy" "arrogant" "presumptuous" etc etc. All these are judgments of the heart and issue forth from a violation of the love commandment. Love believes all things... that means love believes the best about your brother. Love does not invent evil in the heart of others. Love does not accuse others of things that cannot be known. They want to incriminate the innocent, and what better way to do it than to assume the role of the devil and accuse by suggestion. Subtle... but evil none-the-less.
I have learned to understand that God is the deeper life and much more than "faith systems" to GET WHAT I WANT. This is not about faith (i.e. WOF in marketing term) in relation to "getting what you want" but faith in WHO and at HIS will. A Christian isn't like a salesperson selling wealth and health simply because saleslperson focuses on the products (wealth & health) rather than the true source which is spiritual salvation (eternal) through Grace and Jesus Christ.

[JimfromOhio]

Lol...
I do not question their lack of faith... I am quite sure of it.^_^

Kidding...:D
Yeah right. :P

[churchlady]

Gee, I wonder why there are those who question a person's lack of faith because that is related to the heart. ;)

If I ever judge something of your heart, I invite you to correct me publicly. I will receive it.

We may judge outward behavior (including words), but not intent and motive of the heart, as only God sees these, unless He gives a specific Word of Knowledge like He did to Paul concerning what was in Simon's heart who tried to buy the power of God.

[TheBloodOfJesus]

I have learned to understand that God is the deeper life and much more than "faith systems" to GET WHAT I WANT. This is not about faith (i.e. WOF in marketing term) in relation to "getting what you want" but faith in WHO and at HIS will. A Christian isn't like a salesperson selling wealth and health simply because saleslperson focuses on the products (wealth & health) rather than the true source which is spiritual salvation (eternal) through Grace and Jesus Christ.

More judgments of the heart. I see you have the "power," yet do not follow the "love believes" command.
I would defer to the latter.

[TheBloodOfJesus]

If I ever judge something of your heart, I invite you to correct me publicly. I will receive it.

We may judge outward behavior (including words), but not intent and motive of the heart, as only God sees these, unless He gives a specific Word of Knowledge like He did to Paul concerning what was in Simon's heart who tried to buy the power of God.

You hit it on the head.
A good thing can be made putrid by the suggestion of an evil motive.
Since they cannot find evil in the good thing, all that is left is to assign a random evil motive.
Not very nice I must say.

[dkbwarrior]

Gee, I wonder why there are those who question a person's lack of faith because that is related to the heart. ;)

There may be those. Rare, but I have seen it from time to time, usually from less mature WOF believers, who look at a persons circumstance as evidence of their faith.

But that is misunderstood theology.

As I have said many times on this forum, a persons circumstance is not evidence of faith or lack thereof.

There are many rich and healthy sinners, and many poor and sick believers. Neither circumstance proves anything. And you cannot observe a person heart.

But a persons confession can be observed. Jesus said that faith believes that it recieves when it prays. It someone says that they have faith for healing, but then says that they don't believe that they are healed, I can safely say that they do not have faith for healing.

This is not judgement, it is simply believing what they are saying to me.

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

You hit it on the head.
A good thing can be made putrid by the suggestion of an evil motive.
Since they cannot find evil in the good thing, all that is left is to assign a random evil motive.
Not very nice I must say.
Most common issue I faced from WOF (mostly from Dids) is "unbelief" in a person's heart. :wave:

[JimfromOhio]

There may be those. Rare, but I have seen it from time to time, usually from less mature WOF believers, who look at a persons circumstance as evidence of their faith.

But that is misunderstood theology.

As I have said many times on this forum, a persons circumstance is not evidence of faith or lack thereof.

There are many rich and healthy sinners, and many poor and sick believers. Neither circumstance proves anything. And you cannot observe a person heart.

But a persons confession can be observed. Jesus said that faith believes that it recieves when it prays. It someone says that they have faith for healing, but then says that they don't believe that they are healed, I can safely say that they do not have faith for healing.

This is not judgement, it is simply believing what they are saying to me.

Peace...
Do you know that "confession" always comes from the heart (only if they meant it).

When you say "someone have faith for healing", you are mostly referring to man's works more than grace.

[TheBloodOfJesus]

Most common issue I faced from WOF (mostly from Dids) is "unbelief" in a person's heart. :wave:

Hmmm...
I think there is a difference between "unbelief" and "non-belief."

Unbelief is a choice people make to NOT conform and submit to the word of God.

Non-belief is just a lack of knowledge about what God has said... not really a fault, just a state.

[JimfromOhio]

Hmmm...
I think there is a difference between "unbelief" and "non-belief."

Unbelief is a choice people make to NOT conform and submit to the word of God.

Non-belief is just a lack of knowledge about what God has said... not really a fault, just a state.
I get alot on this definition you have provided:
"Unbelief is a choice people make to NOT conform and submit to the word of God."

By the way, "Choice and Grace" contradicts.

[TheBloodOfJesus]

Do you know that "confession" always comes from the heart (only if they meant it).

When you say "someone have faith for healing", you are mostly referring to man's works more than grace.
How can you tell the difference... unliess of course you have the afore mentioned "power" to see into the hearts of men.
Either way, it is never wrong to side with the word of God... regardless of whether that agreement exists in the spirit or merely in the mind.

[TheBloodOfJesus]

I get alot on this definition you have provided:
"Unbelief is a choice people make to NOT conform and submit to the word of God."

By the way, "Choice and Grace" contradicts.
One can choose to submit or resist the grace of God.
God will not save, heal, bless or force any element of grace upon you if you rebell and refuse to submit to it.
Grace is not a forced issue.

[JimfromOhio]

How can you tell the difference... unliess of course you have the afore mentioned "power" to see into the hearts of men.
Either way, it is never wrong to side with the word of God... regardless of whether that agreement exists in the spirit or merely in the mind.

whose power?

[JimfromOhio]

One can choose to submit or resist the grace of God.
God will not save, heal, bless or force any element of grace upon you if you rebell and refuse to submit to it.
Grace is not a forced issue.
Choosing is related to "intelligence" decision.

In the Old Testament, the law often directs our behavior through our "minds" but the law has no power to change our hearts. Hebrews 7:18-19 "The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God."

Conviction is related to changing the heart.

You are saved when the Holy Spirit convicting YOU to repent and help you change your ways (not of your own). If you didn't feel the conviction and didn't have the motivation to change from "within", then you will know that you are not saved.

In Romans 12:1-2 explains that I am called to a life of transformation in which we yield our lives to the power of the Holy Spirit who changes us from within (inside out).

[TheBloodOfJesus]

whose power?
The power to discernt the thoughts and intents of the heart.
To tell the difference between confidence and arrogance.
To discern greed, pride, and other evil motives in men when all they are doing is quoting the word of God.

"I am who Christ says I am."

Is that arrogance or simple submission to the word of God?

What I am really saying is "I am who Christ says I am, not because I am someone special, but because I have no choice."
The OP subtly accuses that it is arrogance.
We know where subtle accusations come from.

[JimfromOhio]

The power to discernt the thoughts and intents of the heart.
To tell the difference between confidence and arrogance.
To discern greed, pride, and other evil motives in men when all they are doing is quoting the word of God.

"I am who Christ says I am."

Is that arrogance or simple submission to the word of God?

What I am really saying is "I am who Christ says I am, not because I am someone special, but because I have no choice."
The OP subtly accuses that it is arrogance.
We know where subtle accusations come from.

We have to be careful when using the word "confidence" because confidence CAN LEAD TO arrogant because confidences ties to the flesh, not the spirit.

Philippians 3:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=3&verse=1&version=31&context=verse)
[ No Confidence in the Flesh ] Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord! It is no trouble for me to write the same things to you again, and it is a safeguard for you.

Philippians 3:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=3&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh.

Philippians 3:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=3&verse=4&version=31&context=verse)
though I myself have reasons for such confidence. If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh

What about the power of grace?

"Confidence" goes against Grace because only the Holy Spirit can provide faith to activate the power of God through God's GRACE.

2 Thessalonians 3:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=60&chapter=3&verse=4&version=31&context=verse)
We have confidence in the Lord that you are doing and will continue to do the things we command.

Hebrews 4:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=4&verse=16&version=31&context=verse)
Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

[TheBloodOfJesus]

But once again you are assuming the worst about those are merely quoting the word. You can accuse them of whatever evil motivation you want... and do so at your own peril. Such a thing is surely persecution and ranks up there with slapping Christ by the priest because Jesus merely stated who He was.

I suppose it could also be compared with the events of the temptation of Christ. Shortly after God spoke from heaven and declared Jesus to be His son, the Holy Spirit drove Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted. What did the devil tempt Him to do? He tempted Jesus to doubt whether He was really the son of God.. the very thing God said.
"If you are who He said you are, then do this or that."
Satan was subtly trying to get Jesus to deny what the Father said. And He (as you have here) used scripture to do it. I suppose accusations of arrogance and presumption were in there also.
The devil loves this accusation because it is so easy to make and impossible to defend one's self against.
We just have to take the slap.
So slap away folks.
(This, of course will be taken as a presumpteous and arrogant statement: comparing our suffer at the hands of the accusors with the suiffer of Jesus at His.... but what else can we do.)

We have to be careful when using the word "confidence" because confidence CAN LEAD TO arrogant because confidences ties to the flesh, not the spirit.

Philippians 3:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=3&verse=1&version=31&context=verse)
[ No Confidence in the Flesh ] Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord! It is no trouble for me to write the same things to you again, and it is a safeguard for you.

Philippians 3:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=3&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh.

Philippians 3:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=3&verse=4&version=31&context=verse)
though I myself have reasons for such confidence. If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh

What about the power of grace?

"Confidence" goes against Grace because only the Holy Spirit can provide faith to activate the power of God through God's GRACE.

2 Thessalonians 3:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=60&chapter=3&verse=4&version=31&context=verse)
We have confidence in the Lord that you are doing and will continue to do the things we command.

Hebrews 4:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=4&verse=16&version=31&context=verse)
Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

[map4]

We have to be careful when using the word "confidence" because confidence CAN LEAD TO arrogant because confidences ties to the flesh, not the spirit.

Philippians 3:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=3&verse=1&version=31&context=verse)
[ No Confidence in the Flesh ] Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord! It is no trouble for me to write the same things to you again, and it is a safeguard for you.

Philippians 3:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=3&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh.

Philippians 3:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=3&verse=4&version=31&context=verse)
though I myself have reasons for such confidence. If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh

What about the power of grace?

"Confidence" goes against Grace because only the Holy Spirit can provide faith to activate the power of God through God's GRACE.

2 Thessalonians 3:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=60&chapter=3&verse=4&version=31&context=verse)
We have confidence in the Lord that you are doing and will continue to do the things we command.

Hebrews 4:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=4&verse=16&version=31&context=verse)
Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.


That says it right there...confidence in the Lord. Period.

[JimfromOhio]

That says it right there...confidence in the Lord. Period.
Good which means we should not have any confidence in our own faith including measure of faith according to works. Our faith should be in God and not in our own faith. ;)

[~RENEE~]

No it isn't

[Jimbeaux]

This judgement of your fellow christians' HEART is not permitted by the scriptures. As a pastor, you know this.



You are right. I should have said “WOF in this forum, though not every WOF, of course, give the impression of conceited, me-centered believers with deflated self-images trying to pump themselves up.” Not that they are, you understnad, but they just seem to give off those vibes.

Better?

~Jim
The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.

[Optimax]

Well, is it?

Can only answer for myself. However, I believe the majority of those who are WOF do the same.

What I have learned is that true humility is defined by these scripture.

1 Pe 5:6-7
6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
KJV

Php 4:6-7
6 Do not fret or have any anxiety about anything, but in every circumstance and in everything, by prayer and petition ( definite requests), with thanksgiving, continue to make your wants known to God.

7 And God's peace [shall be yours, that tranquil state of a soul assured of its salvation through Christ, and so fearing nothing from God and being content with its earthly lot of whatever sort that is, that peace] which transcends all understanding shall garrison and mount guard over your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.
AMP

Being humble is casting your anxiety/care upon the Lord.

Can a prideful person do this?

Pride says "I can take care of this by myself".

Humble recognizes it's own limits, turns it's anxieties/cares over to God, and sleeps peacefully.

This I do as soon as I recognize that I am fretful, anxious or caring(worrying) about something.

[JimfromOhio]

Can only answer for myself. However, I believe the majority of those who are WOF do the same.

What I have learned is that true humility is defined by these scripture.

1 Pe 5:6-7
6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
KJV

Php 4:6-7
6 Do not fret or have any anxiety about anything, but in every circumstance and in everything, by prayer and petition ( definite requests), with thanksgiving, continue to make your wants known to God.

7 And God's peace [shall be yours, that tranquil state of a soul assured of its salvation through Christ, and so fearing nothing from God and being content with its earthly lot of whatever sort that is, that peace] which transcends all understanding shall garrison and mount guard over your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.
AMP

Being humble is casting your anxiety/care upon the Lord.

Can a prideful person do this?

Pride says "I can take care of this by myself".

Humble recognizes it's own limits, turns it's anxieties/cares over to God, and sleeps peacefully.

This I do as soon as I recognize that I am fretful, anxious or caring(worrying) about something.
So, when WOF teaches that if you have enough faith, you get to claim and take what belongs to you is humility? The measure of faith by some is defined how successful you are spiritually. Romans 11:6, "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace." Merit (instead of grace) for getting the blessings from God when they think they have done it from the works of faith (measure of faith).

[churchlady]

You are right. I should have said “WOF in this forum, though not every WOF, of course, give the impression of conceited, me-centered believers with deflated self-images trying to pump themselves up.” Not that they are, you understnad, but they just seem to give off those vibes.

Better?

I don't know if it's an improvement or not. Why don't you ask the Lord?

[Optimax]

So, when WOF teaches that if you have enough faith, you get to claim and take what belongs to you is humility? The measure of faith by some is defined how successful you are spiritually. Romans 11:6, "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace." Merit (instead of grace) for getting the blessings from God when they think they have done it from the works of faith (measure of faith).

:doh:

[JimfromOhio]

:doh:
Unable to respond? :doh:

[Optimax]

Unable to respond? :doh:

Where in my post about being humble was the word faith.

Are you so afraid of faith that you fight it even when it is not mentioned?

See, here is what you said.

So, when WOF teaches that if you have enough faith, you get to claim and take what belongs to you is humility? The measure of faith by some is defined how successful you are spiritually. Romans 11:6, "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace." Merit (instead of grace) for getting the blessings from God when they think they have done it from the works of faith (measure of faith).

This is what I said.

Can only answer for myself. However, I believe the majority of those who are WOF do the same.

What I have learned is that true humility is defined by these scripture.

1 Pe 5:6-7
6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
KJV

Php 4:6-7
6 Do not fret or have any anxiety about anything, but in every circumstance and in everything, by prayer and petition ( definite requests), with thanksgiving, continue to make your wants known to God.

7 And God's peace [shall be yours, that tranquil state of a soul assured of its salvation through Christ, and so fearing nothing from God and being content with its earthly lot of whatever sort that is, that peace] which transcends all understanding shall garrison and mount guard over your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.
AMP

Being humble is casting your anxiety/care upon the Lord.

Can a prideful person do this?

Pride says "I can take care of this by myself".

Humble recognizes it's own limits, turns it's anxieties/cares over to God, and sleeps peacefully.

This I do as soon as I recognize that I am fretful, anxious or caring(worrying) about something.


Faith was never mentioned.
:doh:

[JimfromOhio]

Double posted

[JimfromOhio]

Where in my post about being humble was the word faith.

Are you so afraid of faith that you fight it even when it is not mentioned?

See, here is what you said.
So, when WOF teaches that if you have enough faith, you get to claim and take what belongs to you is humility? The measure of faith by some is defined how successful you are spiritually. Romans 11:6, "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace." Merit (instead of grace) for getting the blessings from God when they think they have done it from the works of faith (measure of faith).

This is what I said.

Can only answer for myself. However, I believe the majority of those who are WOF do the same.

What I have learned is that true humility is defined by these scripture.

1 Pe 5:6-7
6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
KJV

Php 4:6-7
6 Do not fret or have any anxiety about anything, but in every circumstance and in everything, by prayer and petition ( definite requests), with thanksgiving, continue to make your wants known to God.

7 And God's peace [shall be yours, that tranquil state of a soul assured of its salvation through Christ, and so fearing nothing from God and being content with its earthly lot of whatever sort that is, that peace] which transcends all understanding shall garrison and mount guard over your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.
AMP

Being humble is casting your anxiety/care upon the Lord.

Can a prideful person do this?

Pride says "I can take care of this by myself".

Humble recognizes it's own limits, turns it's anxieties/cares over to God, and sleeps peacefully.

This I do as soon as I recognize that I am fretful, anxious or caring(worrying) about something.


Faith was never mentioned.
:doh:



WOF = Word of Faith (Foundation of WoF's doctrine of faith) ;)

[Jimbeaux]

I don't know if it's an improvement or not. Why don't you ask the Lord?

Are you under an impression that I don’t pray, CL? The fact is, I am no longer WOF because I did pray about the inconsistencies of far too many things I was accepting a “truth” from them and—the Lord told me to get away from it. “From such turn away,” I was told. And I did.

I think that if more people would pray about what they hear from celebrity WOF teachers, would prove all things, search the scriptures (without help) and sincerely (and boldly) find out what is (and isn’t) acceptably to the Lord, it would thin WOF ranks considerably.

If this forum and my PM box and email are any indication, we are at least offer WOFers a second opinion on some of those less-than-orthodox WOFish beliefs that are bandied about on TBN, et.al. and are causing them to think for themselves for a change. They are discovering that the mind is not such a terrible thing, after all, and that the Holy Spirit can guide them into truth more efficiently than an army of celebrity preachers.

Maybe you should take your own advice, CL, and ask the Lord about a few things, yourself.

~Jim

The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.

[probinson]

True humility is understanding that apart from Christ, you can do nothing, but through Christ, you can do all things.

We often see people post things like this, to try and make the point that it's all a "me-centered" mentality;

"...Who I am in Christ..."

...but in reality, most (not all) WoF believers (at least the ones that I've known) would really talk like this;

"...Who I am in Christ..."

The emphasis is in an entirely different place than the detractors would have you to believe, and it makes a world of difference.

Some of the most humble people I know are WoF believers. They don't compare their humility to others, they don't have to constantly remind you how humble they are. They just live it, recognizing who they are in Christ.

[probinson]

If this forum and my PM box and email are any indication, we are at least offer WOFers a second opinion on some of those less-than-orthodox WOFish beliefs that are bandied about on TBN, et.al. and are causing them to think for themselves for a change. They are discovering that the mind is not such a terrible thing, after all, and that the Holy Spirit can guide them into truth more efficiently than an army of celebrity preachers.

"If my PM box is any indication..." http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h128/petesarah/Smilies/rolleyes.gif

"...celebrity preachers."

"...causing them to think for themselves..."

Oh, the humility just oozes from this post. :P

I think you need some new material.

:D

[LeadWorship]

Those who understand and live under true Godly Authority and submission understand humility. The fact is, WoF hatred and spite has gotten so bad on this forum that 5 or 6 of the non-WoFers have decided to try and make examples of how bad and unbiblical and bible-illiterate we are based on some teachings that each and every WoF on this forum calls extreme and not the norm. Even the WoF pastors on here say so, but it doesn't matter. This subsection should be renamed "WoF Hate-fest" not "SF/C Debate".

[pdudgeon]

I have learned to understand that God is the deeper life and much more than "faith systems" to GET WHAT I WANT. This is not about faith (i.e. WOF in marketing term) in relation to "getting what you want" but faith in WHO and at HIS will. A Christian isn't like a salesperson selling wealth and health simply because saleslperson focuses on the products (wealth & health) rather than the true source which is spiritual salvation (eternal) through Grace and Jesus Christ.

from your own lips comes the basis of your misunderstanding.
John 14:13 says:"And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

please note that there is a condition attached to the asking....'that the Father may be glorified in the Son."
so it is not about getting what we want as Woofers, but all about glorifying the Father and the Son.

this again is a kingdom principle, and is to be understood in that way. But when some people look at Woofer's asking God for things and view the asking from an earthly viewpoint, (gimme, gimme) it is easy to see how they could be confused.

[pinetree]

Faith without grace is legalism,legalism works pride.

It is the leaders...they put all the emphasis on the believer,rather then on the abundant provision of grace.That emphasis points to the old man,who flies right out of the grave to help out..:D
It is nothing personal to the students,they cant help what hearing the teachings produce.

The law works wrath,produces anger and frustration.Law can manifest in many forms.:o

It is almost starting to be that when you read a wofers post,it sounds more like a tony robbins self help post.

sure,there can be a ton of scripture,but there is an I I I I in the posts.

You always leave a wof post,with the feeling like the poster has some secret insight to faith..

True humility is grace.Faith comes by grace,not how much you do.

Our salvation which is our faith,has nothing to do with our desire or effort...
Romans 9:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=16&version=31&context=verse)
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

The flesh has a built in revulsion to grace, because if it's all grace then we cannot boast or take any credit. So, instead of receiving grace for our whole lives, we limit it to our initial salvation experience and then construct an elaborate new system which may differ from group to group but basically says "God's power is dependent upon my efforts"

The flesh rejoices because it once again can take credit for successes, and so we go merrily along, publicly saying it's all God and secretly relishing our great knowledge.;)

[TheBloodOfJesus]

Faith without grace is legalism,legalism works pride.

It is the leaders...they put all the emphasis on the believer,rather then on the abundant provision of grace.That emphasis points to the old man,who flies right out of the grave to help out..:D
It is nothing personal to the students,they cant help what hearing the teachings produce.

The law works wrath,produces anger and frustration.Law can manifest in many forms.:o

It is almost starting to be that when you read a wofers post,it sounds more like a tony robbins self help post.

sure,there can be a ton of scripture,but there is an I I I I in the posts.

You always leave a wof post,with the feeling like the poster has some secret insight to faith..

True humility is grace.Faith comes by grace,not how much you do.

Our salvation which is our faith,has nothing to do with our desire or effort...
Romans 9:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=16&version=31&context=verse)
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

The flesh has a built in revulsion to grace, because if it's all grace then we cannot boast or take any credit. So, instead of receiving grace for our whole lives, we limit it to our initial salvation experience and then construct an elaborate new system which may differ from group to group but basically says "God's power is dependent upon my efforts"

The flesh rejoices because it once again can take credit for successes, and so we go merrily along, publicly saying it's all God and secretly relishing our great knowledge.;)


I could post this exact same post about anti-wof diatribes.
It makes no sense, there is no effort whatsoever to prove that this in any way applies to WoF teachings, and the poster displays by his statements that he does not have a clue as to what WoF does teach.
Anyone can hammer out this boilerplate rhetoric. The Jims are masters of it.
But how does any of it in any way apply to WoF, or any other teaching?
You are going to have to get some substance here... I for one do not see how what you are saying has anything whatsover to do with what I believe? It is so foreign to the reality of WoF beliefs that I cannot even see how to reply to it.
You may as well address it to Buddhists. It applies just as well.

If you honestly what to discuss the issues, then you are going to have to school yourself on the topics at hand. If all you want to do is rail meaningless drivel and pretend you are accomplishing something or winning some imaginary debate... you doing very well.

[pinetree]

I could post this exact same post about anti-wof diatribes.
It makes no sense, there is no effort whatsoever to prove that this in any way applies to WoF teachings, and the poster displays by his statements that he does not have a clue as to what WoF does teach.
Anyone can hammer out this boilerplate rhetoric. The Jims are masters of it.
But how does any of it in any way apply to WoF, or any other teaching?
You are going to have to get some substance here... I for one do not see how what you are saying has anything whatsover to do with what I believe? It is so foreign to the reality of WoF beliefs that I cannot even see how to reply to it.
You may as well address it to Buddhists. It applies just as well.

If you honestly what to discuss the issues, then you are going to have to school yourself on the topics at hand. If all you want to do is rail meaningless drivel and pretend you are accomplishing something or winning some imaginary debate... you doing very well.
brother pinetree hears a tone:D

[TheBloodOfJesus]

brother pinetree hears a tone:D
Well...
That makes about as much sense as anything else here....

[map4]

brother pinetree hears a tone:D


Nah pinetree...you're hearing an echo :D

[TheBloodOfJesus]

Nah pinetree...you're hearing an echo :D
Maybe it is discernment telling him something about us.
What is the "gift of discrenment" telling you Pine?
You hearing voices again?

[JimfromOhio]

Discernment may be simply defined as the ability to biblically decide between right and wrong, between truth and error, between good and evil.

References:
1 Corinthians 14:29
Philippians 1:10
1 Thessalonians 5:21
1 John 4:1

Pros of using gift of discernment:
To identify false prophets - Deuteronomy 18:21–22; Jeremiah 23:25-30
To identify the heart motives of others- Luke 6:8; John 2:24-25
To distinguish our heart motives - Job 38:36; Proverbs 21:2
To lead one in the ways of the Lord - Hosea 14:9
To empathize with weak and strong - Romans 14:1–8.
To distinguish right from wrong doctrine - 2 Peter 3:15–18
To identify false spirits / apostles - 1 John 4:1–6; Revelation 2:2

What would happen if a church do not use the gift of discernment?
Leads to a nations fall - Deuteronomy 32:28.
Leads to spiritual dullness - Matthew 12:1–8
Leads to misinterpretation - Mark 14:58
Leads to rejecting Jesus - Mark 15:29–30; 14:58
Leads to confusion - Luke 9:7–9.
Leads to foolishness - 1 Corinthians 3:18–20

Discernment (of spirits) (diakriseis pneumaton), is a gift to judge or evaluate the spirits so as to distinguish whether something is from God or from an evil source. Basically means to clearly distinguish truth from error by judging whether the behavior or teaching is from God, Satan, human error, or human power.

The basic Greek root for discern, diakrino, means "to judge through, to see through to the truth, to truly evaluate something." Diakrino ( Strong's #1252). This word means "to separate, discriminate"; and "to learn by discriminating, to determine, decide."So, discerning spirits is simply to evaluate the spirit -- whether it is God, or a spirit other than the Holy Spirit.

Discernment (1 Cor. 12:10) is a supernatural ability to distinguish between the spirit of truth and the spirit of error, between holiness and evil. We live in a world in which there is a great spiritual battle raging (Ephesians 6:10-18).

There is another aspect of our lives that makes this gift of discernment necessary. As human beings we do not always know whether or not our thoughts, words and deeds are from God. Discernment is the means God uses to literally divide light from darkness, truth from falsehood, right motive from wrong motive, selflessness from selfishness.

Another, in Hebrews 5:14 we are told that discernment comes with spiritual maturity that the Spirit works in us (diakrisis - Strong's #1253).

The next greek word is anakrino (Strong's #350) and literally means, "to distinguish, or separate out so as to investigate (krino) by looking throughout (ana, intensive) objects or particulars," hence signifies "to examine, scrutinize, question, to hold a preliminary judicial examination preceding the trial proper." This word was used of Pilate's examination of Jesus (Luke 23:14). It is also the word used of the Bereans who "searched" the Scriptures (Acts 17:11).

The necessity of being born again of the Holy Spirit in order to be able to have discernment is stated by Paul to the Corinthians (1 Corinthians 2:14). The last Greek word translated "discern" is dokimazo (Strong's #1381) which means "to test, prove, scrutinize." This term conveys the thought of "to decide." It is translated "discern" in the King James Version of Luke 12:56.

[Optimax]

Discernment may be simply defined as the ability to biblically decide between right and wrong, between truth and error, between good and evil.

How do you believe that discernment as defined above is attained?

Is it for every Christian?

If not, what are the qualifications for attaining it?

[ARBITER01]

Nicely put together Jim!

Not trying to be a critic here, but I wouldn't call spiritual discernment a gift. Our bibles don't really define it as that. It is a byproduct of our born again life as you seem to suggest here.

I do like the time you put into this and will save it.

[JimfromOhio]

How do you believe that discernment as defined above is attained?

Is it for every Christian?

If not, what are the qualifications for attaining it?
Ummm they fall under the category of spiritual gifts and blessings that all believers receive at the time of their salvation (I thought you knew this). Through grace, they grow more spiritually mature as they learn the Word of God (i.e. Bible Study, going to Church).

Strong's # 5486 xa/risma Charisma (i.e. gift of divine GRACE)
a favour with which one receives without any merit of his own
the gift of divine grace
the gift of faith, knowledge, holiness, virtue
the economy of divine grace, by which the pardon of sin and eternal salvation is appointed to sinners in consideration of the merits of Christ laid hold of by faith
grace or gifts denoting extraordinary powers, distinguishing certain Christians and enabling them to serve the church of Christ, the reception of which is due to the power of divine grace operating on their souls by the Holy Spirit
KJV (17) - free gift, 2; gift, 15;

NAS (17) - favor, 1; free gift, 3; gift, 5; gifts, 7; spiritual gift, 1;

[JimfromOhio]

Nicely put together Jim!

Not trying to be a critic here, but I wouldn't call spiritual discernment a gift. Our bibles don't really define it as that. It is a byproduct of our born again life as you seem to suggest here.

I do like the time you put into this and will save it.

Actually, they fall under the "Spirit-filled" Christian that we should "not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." (Ephesians 4:30) His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue. (2 Peter 1.3)

Reading Peter saying, "His divine power hath given unto us all things" (v. 3). When we became a believer, we gained instant possession of all things that pertain to life and godliness according to God's grace as well as His will. The source of all things pertaining to life and godliness is God's divine power called GRACE which having God's own overwhelming energy that is concentrated on providing all our needs.

[Optimax]

Ummm they fall under the category of spiritual gifts and blessings that all believers receive at the time of their salvation (I thought you knew this). Through grace, they grow more spiritually mature as they learn the Word of God (i.e. Bible Study, going to Church).

Strong's # 5486 xa/risma Charisma (i.e. gift of divine GRACE)
a favour with which one receives without any merit of his own
the gift of divine grace
the gift of faith, knowledge, holiness, virtue
the economy of divine grace, by which the pardon of sin and eternal salvation is appointed to sinners in consideration of the merits of Christ laid hold of by faith
grace or gifts denoting extraordinary powers, distinguishing certain Christians and enabling them to serve the church of Christ, the reception of which is due to the power of divine grace operating on their souls by the Holy Spirit
KJV (17) - free gift, 2; gift, 15;

NAS (17) - favor, 1; free gift, 3; gift, 5; gifts, 7; spiritual gift, 1;


You say that all believers receive this "discernment" at time of salvation.

How would you explain why we don't all agree on scripture.

These gifts are from God. Right?

If we receive this discernment and it is from God.

Then the gift would operate "rightly" in all of us.

Then we would all discern the same.

Why do we not all "discern" the same?

[JimfromOhio]

You say that all believers receive this "discernment" at time of salvation.

How would you explain why we don't all agree on scripture.

These gifts are from God. Right?

If we receive this discernment and it is from God.

Then the gift would operate "rightly" in all of us.

Then we would all discern the same.

Why do we not all "discern" the same?

Why not all discern the same? well... its easy...... people are to busy focusing on temporal blessings and reasonings and tuning out eternal blessings and knowledge.

One of the major side-affects of discernment is "suffering". I have two sides of the coins that I have used for years. Perseverance come to test the strength of our faith because they assist us in the knowledge of our own faith. (Genesis 22:1-18, Malachi 3:3-4, 1 Peter 1:6-9). "Perseverance in life's experiences" come to us to reveal what we really love.

One side of the coin is that perseverance experiences may be viewed as coming from God to bring out the BEST in us (See: Gen. 22:1-2, 15-18; Hebrews 11:17).

On the other side of the coin, perseverance expriences attempts to tempt us and trials to bring out the WORST in us (see: James 1:13-14).

In the book of James, the entire letter is about living faith during trials and list the tests intended to reveal the legitimacy of someone's faith. The VERY first test is the test of severe trials which means that we need to understand the strength or the genuineness of our own faith. Trials cannot destroy true faith; they only put it to the test and strengthen it as in spiritual training.

(By the way, Word of Faith do NOT teach this even though its Biblical)

The bottom line, our spiritual capacity is our charisma (GRACE) which is a gift of God's grace. The world is no longer my master and that I am an overcomer because of the Holy Spirit that is within me. That’s the definition of a Christian. That's a mark of a true follower of Jesus Christ James wrote it clear that God's grace is amply sufficient to enable us to live a godly life and to keep ourselves "from being polluted by the world" (Jas 1:27) which includes false teachings.

[ARBITER01]

Actually, they fall under the "Spirit-filled" Christian that we should "not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." (Ephesians 4:30) His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue. (2 Peter 1.3)

Reading Peter saying, "His divine power hath given unto us all things" (v. 3). When we became a believer, we gained instant possession of all things that pertain to life and godliness according to God's grace as well as His will. The source of all things pertaining to life and godliness is God's divine power called GRACE which having God's own overwhelming energy that is concentrated on providing all our needs.


I know, and I agree with your assesment, I'm just particular about what we call an actual spiritual gift.

Maybe I'm being too critical in this area.

[BenAdam]

Discernment comes with maturity.

Heb 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

[JimfromOhio]

Discernment comes with maturity.

Heb 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Yes, this is where we need to understand that through grace, we mature as James wrote: "Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything." (James 1:4). We all must remember that without discernment, our maturity of spiritual will become more aware of what's going on within Christianity.

[didaskalos]

I know, and I agree with your assesment, I'm just particular about what we call an actual spiritual gift.

Maybe I'm being too critical in this area.
No, you are correct. Each of us has natural human discernment and normal spiritual discernment. But it is wrong to elevate either of these to the status of a Holy Spirit enabled "gift of the Spirit." In the end all they amount to are personal opinions... and we all have them.

If someone thinks they have some sort of Holy Spirit Gift called "the gift of discernment" then I would have to insist that the manifestation of your gift be judged just like the gift of prophecy. And if it is determined that you have falsely discerned against a thing, then you should be subject to the same actions takes against false prophets. You are a false discerner.
How many churches and personal lives have we seen destroyed because one of these self appointed "discerners" decides that the pastor is of the devil or some innocent person has a demon... when in realtiy, they have no such thing.
I had one such "discerner" accuse me of cheating on my wife!!!!
Luckily my wife knew better and the by that time the congregation had already see the dark things this discerner had done and knew better.

[Tamara224]

Can you all please move the discernment discussion to the other thread that is currently going on right now?

This whole discussion is a thread derail.

Thanks.

[BenAdam]

MOD HAT
The OP has kindly requested that all discussion of discernment move to this thread (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7266859). Please honor that request, any further discussion on that matter will be reported as off topic.

Thank You
/MOD HAT

[NorrinRadd]

Thanks for your response, CL.

Sometimes it just seems to me like anytime the subject of humility comes up, certain WoF posters (certainly not all) resist it. For example, they start talking about false humility and who they are in Christ, their authority, how they are "seated in the heavenlies", etc. Disproportionately so.

Many of the comments make me wonder if it's just "normal" immaturity (the kind we see in any denom) or if there is something about WoF teachings that promote a "higher seat" mentality.

In reality, I think that many Charismatic/Pentecostal doctrines lead people to a rather prideful attitude - i.e. "we're full gospel", etc. It kind of engenders feelings of superiority to cessationists, for one thing.

Speaking as a former WoF person -- I think most would take a position common to many Fundies: We are "humble" enough to believe God's Word, even when it doesn't seem to make sense.

On the matter of authority and being "seated with Christ" in "heavenly places" -- They perhaps do overemphasize those bits, but IMO the door was opened to that by the "traditional" church's almost total neglect of those same bits.

I agree that Charismatics and Pentecostals can fall prey to a sort of "spiritual pride." And I know that even the terms "Spirit-Filled" and "Full Gospel" can cause friction. But again I think the door was opened by the failure of "traditional" churches. I believe that churches that make no provision for manifestations of the Spirit to accompany the preaching of the Word fall short of the model consistently portrayed in the NT.

[probinson]

On the matter of authority and being "seated with Christ" in "heavenly places" -- They perhaps do overemphasize those bits, but IMO the door was opened to that by the "traditional" church's almost total neglect of those same bits.

I agree that Charismatics and Pentecostals can fall prey to a sort of "spiritual pride." And I know that even the terms "Spirit-Filled" and "Full Gospel" can cause friction. But again I think the door was opened by the failure of "traditional" churches. I believe that churches that make no provision for manifestations of the Spirit to accompany the preaching of the Word fall short of the model consistently portrayed in the NT.
Excellent, well-balanced post! :thumbsup:

It has long been my belief that the reason some WoF churches may tend to put an overemphasis on some things is because those things have been completely neglected in the "traditional" church.

You just said it much better than I could. :cool:

[Balance]

I think that those who are confident in who they are in Christ and their righteousness in Him are a threat to those who are not, and their confidence is erroneously judged as pride.

When I first came into WOF (19+ yrs ago) I thought some of the preachers were pretty cocky. However, I soon learned that when you know that you know that you know Him and your right standing with Him, it is a wonderful place to be - albeit threatening to those who don't know that glorious position.

QFT

[JimfromOhio]

Speaking as a former WoF person -- I think most would take a position common to many Fundies: We are "humble" enough to believe God's Word, even when it doesn't seem to make sense.

On the matter of authority and being "seated with Christ" in "heavenly places" -- They perhaps do overemphasize those bits, but IMO the door was opened to that by the "traditional" church's almost total neglect of those same bits.

I agree that Charismatics and Pentecostals can fall prey to a sort of "spiritual pride." And I know that even the terms "Spirit-Filled" and "Full Gospel" can cause friction. But again I think the door was opened by the failure of "traditional" churches. I believe that churches that make no provision for manifestations of the Spirit to accompany the preaching of the Word fall short of the model consistently portrayed in the NT.

Looking from "denominational" perspectives, we have to remember, in this world, denominational doctrines make denominational members. The New Testament makes just Christians. The biggest thing that denominations do is to give you an idea of where the church that you are looking at stands doctrinally. Denominations or any other forms (i.e. WOF) are important for aligning yourself with the church and the people that you most agree with. This is where YOU are identified with.

Many years ago, Martin Luther's role was all about reforming the Roman Catholic church. Luther and the reformers wanted to correct what they thought was incorrect doctrine but preserve everything else.

I cannot say a particular Church/denomination's theology is truth because the Bible is truth while doctrines are taught by man. I am a Christian FIRST. Secondary is the doctrines I rely on based on the Holy Spirit's conviction. I am not a perfect Christian but I am a forgiven Christian who is still learning. I have learned that there is NO perfect Church and/or denomination.

When we trivialize the Scriptures doctrinally, we reduce God’s Commandments of our Christian Life to formulas (legalism) which lead me to be “proud” of my efforts, or we rationalize away the demands (liberalism) which makes me comfortable with my life, or we fabricate a list of things (agenda) we are going to do for God (moralism) which makes me tired, all three (legalism, liberalism and moralism) replaces God’s grace and need for Jesus Christ. If we allow ourselves to the bondage to a corruption of nature (i.e., legalism, liberalism and moralism), then we are not free as the Bible defines it.

I don't wear a "Calvnism" badge because I am not really a calvinist but I do believe in many of calvinism doctrines. I don't wear Anabaptist badge because I am a Christian. One critical difference between Anabaptists and Reformers on the doctrine of the Atonement is that Anabaptists (Fellowship of Grace Brethren Churches) rejected justification by the law as a means of salvation as did the other Reformers, but they insisted that those who are saved will follow the law of Christ written in their hearts and do the “works of faith." I follow A.W. Tozer's writings but I don't agree with Tozer in some aspects.

There are some good things that comes out of WOF but in terms of balancing of pros and cons. WOF's cons list is much longer and contradict in many of our Christian basic doctrines.

[Tamara224]

Speaking as a former WoF person -- I think most would take a position common to many Fundies: We are "humble" enough to believe God's Word, even when it doesn't seem to make sense.

On the matter of authority and being "seated with Christ" in "heavenly places" -- They perhaps do overemphasize those bits, but IMO the door was opened to that by the "traditional" church's almost total neglect of those same bits.

I agree that Charismatics and Pentecostals can fall prey to a sort of "spiritual pride." And I know that even the terms "Spirit-Filled" and "Full Gospel" can cause friction. But again I think the door was opened by the failure of "traditional" churches. I believe that churches that make no provision for manifestations of the Spirit to accompany the preaching of the Word fall short of the model consistently portrayed in the NT.


Well, I see your point, sort of... But it seems to me like this is just an excuse.

Is it really okay for people to hold extreme views just because other people held extreme views on the other end?

And it doesn't really answer the question of the OP.

Do WoF doctrines promote pride and/or anti-humility?

[NorrinRadd]

Well, I see your point, sort of... But it seems to me like this is just an excuse.

Is it really okay for people to hold extreme views just because other people held extreme views on the other end?

And it doesn't really answer the question of the OP.

Do WoF doctrines promote pride and/or anti-humility?

They can. For instance, when you hear or read preeminent stars in the WoF universe say things like, "I haven't had so much as a headache in 30 years. If one starts to come onto me, I just hold fast to the confession of my faith, and rebuke it and it flees," or "I haven't had to go to a doctor in 40 years. Now if I needed to, bless God, I'd go. And if you need to go, do it. I've been building my faith for a long time, but yours may not be on the same level yet," it's hard to NOT perceive that as less than humble.

But "traditional" people don't get off the hook either. They can be proud of their traditions, proud of their orthodoxy, even proud of their humility! :o

[ARBITER01]

They can. For instance, when you hear or read preeminent stars in the WoF universe say things like, "I haven't had so much as a headache in 30 years. If one starts to come onto me, I just hold fast to the confession of my faith, and rebuke it and it flees," or "I haven't had to go to a doctor in 40 years. Now if I needed to, bless God, I'd go. And if you need to go, do it. I've been building my faith for a long time, but yours may not be on the same level yet," it's hard to NOT perceive that as less than humble.

But "traditional" people don't get off the hook either. They can be proud of their traditions, proud of their orthodoxy, even proud of their humility! :o


Oh yea, I would agree with this. It wouldn't take long to find examples in both areas you listed.

[JimfromOhio]

They can. For instance, when you hear or read preeminent stars in the WoF universe say things like, "I haven't had so much as a headache in 30 years. If one starts to come onto me, I just hold fast to the confession of my faith, and rebuke it and it flees," or "I haven't had to go to a doctor in 40 years. Now if I needed to, bless God, I'd go. And if you need to go, do it. I've been building my faith for a long time, but yours may not be on the same level yet," it's hard to NOT perceive that as less than humble.

But "traditional" people don't get off the hook either. They can be proud of their traditions, proud of their orthodoxy, even proud of their humility! :o

I agree and I have seen both sides behave like what you have illustrated.

We all can be "theologically knowing while at the same time spiritually ignorant". I can have GREAT knowledge but if I don't have spiritual wisdom, my knowledge is worthless. I may know my Bible and I may know my faith but I cannot ever know God 100% because if I do, I would get a HUGE head which is why Apostle Paul wrote, “Your salvation is nothing you have achieved by your good works. It is a gift of God. You receive it by faith. That way no one can boast of his own accomplishments.”

Humility and graciousness will help be stable in spite of the circumstances without focusing on our faith-works. James says, "He gives grace to the humble." We aren't perfect. If there is no righteous deed, if there is no fruit of righteousness, there is no way to demonstrate the validity of faith. Humility leads to a "right knowledge of our spiritual-self" whether we are God-centered or self-centered. In God's graces of the Christian life can't grow without humility. Until we see our poverty we can't see His riches. No man enters the kingdom without understanding his own sinfulness and realizing his need to repent. Proverbs 16:5 says, "Every one who is proud in heart is an abomination to the Lord."

We all need to only look at the Beatitudes, "Blessed are the poor in spirit". Everyone knows this because Beatitudes goes on to talk about poverty of spirit, brokenness, repentance, sorrow, meekness, hunger, thirst for righteousness, blessed are the merciful, blessed are the pure in heart, blessed are the peacemakers, blessed are those persecuted for righteousness sake. True faith begins in humility and in brokenness and in sorrow and in repentance and in poverty in spirit and it ends in obedience and endurance. Saving faith is like that of the little child, if you don't come to Me, Jesus said in Matthew 18:4, as a little child, you can't enter My Kingdom. It's humble, obedient, permanent and it's a gift from God.