Back from mission trip, and some questions...

[JustinHesychast]

Greetings in Christ!

On this mission trip with my Baptist youth group, my faith and love for God has been renewed. If you would like to read about this experience, you can do so here: http://justinhesychast.wordpress.com/ . Feel free to comment on my blog or on here. I was truly blessed by God on the trip.

It raised a few questions, however. During the entire experience, and plus the largely unintentional theological debates me and my youth pastor (my Uncle Will) had, I'm slightly confused.

For one, I learned that I know nothing of Orthodoxy. I truly don't. I don't know Scripture. I do not know how to accurately explain the Church teachings. I have realized that, however good or bad it is, I trust in the Church. I could not explain salvation, I could not explain the afterlife, etc. Maybe I wax explaining it right, but he bombarded me so fiercely with Scripture that I was lost? I do not know.

So please, if any of you can tell me what the Church teaches about salvation, the afterlife, and the meaning of the Cross, backed up with Scripture primarily but also perhaps of Fathers, please, please do so.

Also, why do we have to worship in Divine Liturgy? What if some people are just not "like that" and need something more upbeat, etc.? I for one know that the upbeat worship songs truly moved me more than any Liturgy. I really needed to feel God's love, and I finally felt it in the nightly worship songs on the trip. I love "Prince of Peace". Why is this love not felt in DL so much? Why do I get more (as my old preacher would say) Holy Ghost bumps (aka those chills when you feel God's love so immensely during worship) during Protestant worship than the Liturgy?

I still trust Christ and I have, for whatever reason, utmost faith in His Church. I just need clarification.

Thanks!

Love,
Justin

EDIT: Also, I remembered this. Forgive me for any offense or crudeness... but what is with this disgusting lack of evangelism and mission trips in the Church? I know there is the Orthodox Church Mission Center, OCMC, but I have rarely heard much of that. The two churches here have no mission trips whatsoever. The most is that one of them has a monastery retreat for a few days each summer. What gives? Christ explicitly stated to go our and feed the hungry, clothe the poor, visit the sick, evangelize all nations, etc.

Thanks!

[rusmeister]

Relax, Justin. You're normal.
Having been a serious practicing Baptist, I would say this - that in stumbling upon Orthodoxy, you have discovered a truly sophisticated faith. One that really is complex enough to really explain the world. In some ways it can be like trying to understand and explain relativity and quantum physics to children - especially if you are a child yourself. You may both see rationally and sense intuitively that they are true, but the amount of material - knowledge, teachings, dogma, Scriptural backing, history of Scripture, history of the Church is an enormous bite to chew, both for you and for people you may try to explain things to.
In this context, your chief question: So please, if any of you can tell me what the Church teaches about salvation, the afterlife, and the meaning of the Cross, backed up with Scripture primarily but also perhaps of Fathers, please, please do so. looks kind of like, "Please explain the world to me." It's a very big world, Justin, and Orthodoxy is a very big faith! The simple answers the Baptists produce just don't work. If you accept their views on salvation (generally speaking) you will come to the conclusion - as I did - that they posit a God who created billions of people, knowing that most would not choose/accept Him in the Baptist understanding, and who are therefore doomed to Hell, just so He could have the company of a few people who truly accepted Him - basically an "unloving God" theology. The simple ideas of salvation, worship, understanding of Scripture ("Read it -it's right there in black and white!") etc that they propound are not satisfying to anyone who knows enough about life, history, etc (the topics I listed above).

As to mission work and evangelizing, you have to get involved in parish life before you can see it. Note that you used the word "disgusting" - you have accepted a particular view of what evangelism should look like - as in door-to-door ministries. This is simply not how it ever worked, even in the early Church. D-D is a Baptist invention. In parish life, when you begin to discover that from the money collected for missions, helping the sick, the imprisoned (we have such collection boxes in my church) is distributed by the church committee, that Mrs Sheldon and several other women organize packages and aid for prisoners, that Mr Jackson works with Campus Outreach, Miss James and Dalton help people from a few other area churches organize an outreach for teens, etc... you discover that we are quite active - but we don't advertise it at all.

[MariaRegina]

My experience in non-Orthodox Christian Churches was largely emotional. Weekend retreats left me feeling mighty high -- mountain high -- but within 24 to 48 hours later, I came crashing down into the valley below.

However, attending the Divine Liturgy is a totally different experience. I am transported into the heavenly realm and worship the Lamb with all the angels and saints. This experience is awesome, but it does not leave me with a mountain high and then crash in the valley experience. Instead, it gives me God's love, faith, and fortitude to endure the week and my own human frailty until I experience the next Divine Liturgy and encounter My Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Hope my feeble explanation helps.

[Dorothea]

Salvation is a journey. You go through your whole life striving to become like Christ, and at the end of your life, you are rewarded salvation (this is assuming the person is a sincere and earnest Christian throughout their lives, through repentence and living a life as best as they can). There are verses in the Bible, but I'm not good with scripture verses or chapters, nor have I read enough to remember. I did finish Acts the other night, and am now onto Romans. But there is a verse somewhere where, I think it is St. Paul, that says you must finish the race. There's also much on not just believing in Christ, but living the life of the faith. I'm not expert, but that's what I know on it.

We worship the way we do because it has been done since the beginning. You can see our Church even in the OT. The incense, the oil lamps, it's in the OT, and none of that was excluded in the NT, but the burnt offerings of animals because Christ was the offering (the Lamb).

As rus said, evangelism is done in a less noticeable way, but we do it. We have our missions, our helping the local shelters by volunteering our time there once a week (the church in Spokane did that), the prison ministries, etc. We just don't announce it. It is supposed to be part of our lives, part of us....being generous and loving to our fellow man, without announcing or making a big display of it. Also, if you concentrate on living your life striving to be like Christ, working to glorify him, that is evangelizing in itself without knocking on people's doors or going into people's shops spreading the news in that particular fashion. Just my thoughts.

HTH

[cassc]

You know I had this mini revelation yesterday, I really can't win in an argument with a Protestant, they have so much "evidence" and all I have my instincts. For a while I thought I knew nothing about the Church, but when push came to shove I knew everything I needed to. Don't let a quest for proof block your faith.

That said, I just mentioned this book in another tread, it spends a good deal of time addressing the questions you are asking about: Surprised by Christ by Rev A James Bernstein

[Protoevangel]

EDIT: Also, I remembered this. Forgive me for any offense or crudeness... but what is with this disgusting lack of evangelism and mission trips in the Church? I know there is the Orthodox Church Mission Center, OCMC, but I have rarely heard much of that. The two churches here have no mission trips whatsoever. The most is that one of them has a monastery retreat for a few days each summer. What gives? Christ explicitly stated to go our and feed the hungry, clothe the poor, visit the sick, evangelize all nations, etc.

Thanks!
We have an Orthodox mission in Belfast, one in Kenya, and we build homes in Mexico for the poor. We support OCMC and AFR. We also have local outreach to the homeless, pregnancy clinics, food shelters, and needy individuals, plus a lot more. That's just my parish... Yea, downright disgusting, Justin.

[MariaRegina]

Justin, we do have the OCMC missionaries.

True, they will not accept just anyone, even the Protestants do not accept every person who applies to be a missionary.

That just said, I am working toward going to the missions and had my second meeting with the bishop. And yes, it is a scary undertaking to leave all behind.

[Dorothea]

Justin, we do have the OCMC missionaries.

True, they will not accept just anyone, even the Protestants do not accept every person who applies to be a missionary.

That just said, I am working toward going to the missions and had my second meeting with the bishop. And yes, it is a scary undertaking to leave all behind.

What a blessing for you, Maria. God be with you.

[Theodoros of Atlanta]

You need to keep in mind that there just isn't the manpower/money in the Orthodox Church in America in comparison with the Protestant denominations. Hence, it is much more difficult to get a lot of missionary work going.

[juliagreece]

Hi Justin,
With regard to why we worship the way we do and what it means to worship "in spirit and truth" the following article might be helpful.

Spirit and Truth:What constitutes true worship in the sight of God (http://www.deathtotheworld.com/articles/013/isat/isat.html)

[katherine2001]

Justin, we do evangelize and missionize--we just don't do it the same way as Rue said. The best way to evangelize is to change ourselves first. If we truly love as Christ does and become more and more like Him, that is the greatest witness you can have. I was Baptist for 25 years. I am all too familiar with the pressure put on people to "witness". Without theosis, you can do a lot of damage, and I know a lot of damage has been done in the name of "witnessing". I don't know about you, but I've seen way too many who don't just hate the sin, they hate the sinner as well and can't wait to tell them they are going to go to hell (as though they are God and get to decide that). Contrast that with someone who truly shows the love of Christ for them, even though the same person you are "witnessing" to knows that you don't agree with what they are doing? Which one do you think will have more success? I constantly hear how so many Christians are hypocrites because they say one thing and do totally the opposite, in other words, they aren't walking their talk. I hear that one all the time. I truly believe that a big part of that is that people are being pushed to witness who don't have any business doing it--they haven't even started theosis yet or aren't very far along the path. I'm so thankful that I didn't do much of it--it is scary to think of how much damage I could have done--I probably did enough with the little I did.

Justin, don't believe that they know more about Scripture than the Orthodox do. They know the little bit that upholds their beliefs. They ignore or don't even know about the passages that disagree with their teachings. They all too often proof text
and ignore the passages that say the opposite.

Dorothea, I am hoping to buy "Surprised by Christ". I love how Fr. Bernstein writes, and have all his booklets that he wrote for Conciliar. I've met him in person--he is a very dynamic person!

[seashale76]

We have an Orthodox mission in Belfast, one in Kenya, and we build homes in Mexico for the poor. We support OCMC and AFR. We also have local outreach to the homeless, pregnancy clinics, food shelters, and needy individuals, plus a lot more. That's just my parish... Yea, downright disgusting, Justin.

My parish runs a food pantry, we are building low income housing, and there are mission trips that parishioners go on all the time. We have groups that go to Mexico, Guatemala, and I was personally blessed to be able to go on a mission trip outreach to Alaska this summer (where we helped with some minor construction). I've also been blessed to see new mission parishes pop up in my state and the OCF in my state grow.

[seashale76]

Also, why do we have to worship in Divine Liturgy? What if some people are just not "like that" and need something more upbeat, etc.? I for one know that the upbeat worship songs truly moved me more than any Liturgy. I really needed to feel God's love, and I finally felt it in the nightly worship songs on the trip. I love "Prince of Peace". Why is this love not felt in DL so much? Why do I get more (as my old preacher would say) Holy Ghost bumps (aka those chills when you feel God's love so immensely during worship) during Protestant worship than the Liturgy?


Fickle emotional responses have nothing to do with worship. Worship should have nothing to do with how we feel. Emotional highs eventually bring emotional lows. It is extremely dangerous to constantly seek only after that which gives us some sort of emotional high, so says the former pentecostal who learned the hard way. Divine Liturgy has no comparable Protestant counterpart. Christ is in our midst. How can that be something which causes one to complain?

[cassc]

Hi Justin, as you can see there are "missions" in the Orthodox Church through OCMC, OCF Real Break, and through Parish Outreach. John who regularly posts here as thePilgrim organized a mission trip that brought a bunch of Orthodox to Ukrainian Orphanages. I think the more integrated you become into a parish the more opportunity you will see. I'm on my Parish Council and I just learned that we have a group of women who make shut in visits, grocery runs, and take people to the doctors. They don't make a big deal about it, you wont see it on our website and those women get no credit for it, they just hear about a need and they go. Maybe it's not the best way, but that's how it is with family, people don't have to ask for help, it's offered...
Does that help?

[JustinHesychast]

... can't wait to tell them they are going to go to hell (as though they are God and get to decide that).

Great post, and all y'all's other posts as well. I am trying to soak up the information. But I did want to point this bit out.

During our talks/debates on salvation and the afterlife, heaven and hell was constantly brought up. I kept trying to tell him that God decides, not us, and that we cannot look at anyone and say where they are going. Which kind of went back to bringing up Once Saved Always Saved, but he was insistent that the Bible explicitly gives us verses of how we can determine who is in Heaven or in Hell. And then he asked if my Nana, a God-loving and fearing wonderful woman, would go to Heaven. And as much as I wanted to say yes, and that probably yes, it's not my place to say definitively (to which my Uncle was just kind of shocked).

Also, where does "Hades/Sheol" fit into the afterlife? Because I know it is distinct from Hell... but.... I just I think I completely screwed that part up while talking to my Uncle, and clarification would be nice.

[Andrew21091]

The Orthodox do have missions. We have the OCMC that does work in Albania, Romania (helping with substance abuse), Kenya, Tanzania, Ghana, Uganda, and other African countries. Plus there is other organizations such as Project Mexico.


Why is this love not felt in DL so much?

God's love is everywhere in the Liturgy, you just have to understand what it is all about. There are Athonite Fathers who will serve Liturgy every day on the Holy Mountain and it will take many of them hours to do because they are weeping through the whole service since they are beholding God's love. One account I read of one father, after serving Liturgy, the floor around him would be soaked from his tears because every word pours out from their heart and God's love is burning within them. They witness the Holy Spirit coming down upon the Holy Gifts and how can you not be at awe? One Saint* when standing during Liturgy, he saw what was really happening. He saw a great light and multitude of angels, the cherubim and seraphim singing hymns of glory to God and when the priest called upon the Holy Spirit to sanctify the Holy Gifts, the Saint witnessed the Spirit of God descending from heaven onto the Holy Gifts. We have to understand that’s what really happening during the Holy Liturgy, the angels are there with us to witness the miracle of the Holy Spirit sanctifying the Holy Gifts. The reason people get bored and feel nothing at Liturgy is because they don't understand what is really happening and they really don't know God. To understand what happens at Liturgy and to truly know God, it takes a lot of prayer and a lot of struggle. There has to be struggle in the life of a Christian, we have to bear our cross.


*I can't remember the Saints name, if anyone has any idea, please let me know.

[katherine2001]

Justin, it scares me when people tell others they are going to hell. I worry that maybe Christ had to work really hard to get that person to come to Him, and then the person they approach or approaches them tells them they are going to hell. Maybe, some of them will never come back, no matter how hard Christ works to try and get them to come. That was just one more rejection, and when you feel that God is rejecting you also, that is the ultimate rejection (and with all due respect, I suspect that it is not the Holy Spirit putting those words in the mouth of the person that told them that). I think some people love the idea of hell and people being punished and there being vengeance.

[Andrew21091]

During our talks/debates on salvation and the afterlife, heaven and hell was constantly brought up. I kept trying to tell him that God decides, not us, and that we cannot look at anyone and say where they are going. Which kind of went back to bringing up Once Saved Always Saved, but he was insistent that the Bible explicitly gives us verses of how we can determine who is in Heaven or in Hell. And then he asked if my Nana, a God-loving and fearing wonderful woman, would go to Heaven. And as much as I wanted to say yes, and that probably yes, it's not my place to say definitively (to which my Uncle was just kind of shocked).

Your very right. Nobody can say who is going to Heaven or Hell because we aren't God and we don't decide. If someone says that they are saved and say they will go to Heaven, that is just pride talking. We should hope that we will go to Heaven, I know I hope I will but I have a lot of repenting to do yet. If someone asks you if your saved, the best answer I've heard is "I am saved, I am being saved, and I pray to God that I will be saved" which Met. Kallistos said once to someone who asked that question. We can't say if we are going to Heaven or Hell because men can't judge on who is saved or who isn't.


On salvation you should read this excerpt a book by one of my favorite elders, Elder Cleopa from his book The Truth of Our Faith http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/ec_salvation.aspx

[Lukaris]

Many of the evangelical groups focus on getting saved and then immediately becoming an evangelical and hence do not focus properly on living a Christian life but on the presumption of "saving" others. In this formula the idea of works becomes unhinged from faith and any Christian who mentions it is perceived as trying to "earn" their salvation. Well before one evangelizes our Saviour instructs us that there is a big harvest with few laborers and we must pray (& not assume our own qualifications) for laborers to be sent (see Matthew 9:37-38). Many born again groups exaggerate their capabilities in "saving" others; have you ever seen some of the deconversion stories in other threads on CF? Now, what is the Orthodox focus on living the Christian life in our lifelong salvation? Prayer, fasting, and almsgiving; as instructed by our Saviour Jesus Christ (see Matthew 6:1-18). Now notice the account of Cornelius & his household and the pentecost of the gentiles in Acts 10; Cornelius prayed, fasted, and gave alms which made him worthy to be summoned by an angel of God to be led to the apostle Peter to receive the Holy Spirit and be baptized unto Christ. Cornelius is an example to all of us to have faith & works,receiving the Holy Spirit, the sacraments beginning with baptism, administered & witnessed by an apostle.The Orthodox church is apostolic & the cloud of heavenly witness (Hebrews 12:1) attests to this. The church is conciliar (see Acts 15) and St. Paul himself attests to faith and works (see Acts 26:20, Ephesians 2:8-10 etc.). "Once saved, always saved" is a distortion of circumstances in scripture where an individual is saved by repentance only because there was no other option to observe God's living commandments (how great is our Lord's mercy) see Luke 13:1-5 & Luke 29:39-43 for ex. As far as hell, read Matthew 25:31-46 which is read by the church a couple weeks before Great Lent. Hoping this is sensible, truthful, & helpful. Lastly, I do not seek to judge other Christians since many do what is right in the Holy Spirit despite certain misconceptions in beliefs.