How Faith Comes... [Archive] - Christian Forums

dkbwarrior

26th July 2008, 11:21 AM

HOW FAITH COMES

17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
-Romans 10:17

So faith comes by hearing the Word of God. We all know that, and most of us can quote you chapter and verse.

But, like most things in the Bible, there is the simplistic statement, and then the deep things of God. There is so much packed into this one statement, I would like to explore it some.

For instance, not every one that hears has faith. We know that is true because the Bible says so.

2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
-Hebrews 4:4

Not everyone that hears the Word believes it. Some do, and some don’t. So we could say that faith comes with the Word, but it isn’t always received by the hearers.

As Jesus said:

14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
-Matthew 13:14-15

This is the case today, same as it was yesterday, and same as it will be tomorrow. Some hear and receive, and some hear and do not.

REVELATION: THE KEYS TO FAITH

13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
-Matthew 16:13-19

Revelation regarding knowledge of Him are the keys of the kingdom of heaven. The keys are plural because the promises are many. This knowledge of Him is provided by revelation of the great and precious promises:

3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
-2 Peter 1:3-4

So it is through the knowledge of Him whereby we are given these great and precious promises.

It is the Spirits job to take the knowledge of Him and use it to reveal to us the great and precious promises, to show us the great things that God has prepared for them that love Him:

13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
-John 16:13-15

7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
-1 Corinthians 2:7-12

The promises of God are revealed to us by the Spirit of God. It is the revelation of these promises that give us faith, because faith comes with the Word. Paul calls this the wisdom of God.

WHO CAN RECEIVE REVELATION AND FAITH?

I wanted to add this part, because some have said that we can only have the faith that God has granted us, some have more and some have less, and that is according to the will of God.

While I agree with most of that sentence, I disagree with the part that says that it is Gods will.

Gods will is that we know Him as well as we want to. Wisdom is not being withheld by the Father. Thus faith, which comes with wisdom (revelation of His Word) is also not being withheld by the Father.

It is simply up to us to ask for it:

5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
-James 1:5-7

And Paul prayed it for the early church daily:

15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
-Ephesians 1:15-19

Then we have to labour in the Word, searching the scriptures, and hearing it preached, and confessing the Word, to grow in the knowledge of Him. The more we learn about Him, the more the Spirit can reveal the promises to us.

15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
-2 Timothy 2:2

1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
-Hebrews 4:1-3, 11-14

CONCLUSION

On a personal note, this is what I did after I committed my life to Christ. I found out about Pauls prayer for the Ephesians, and I wrote it out in the first person and prayed it every day for myself for over two years. I also spent untold hours meditating in and memorizing the scriptures, whole books at a time.

And God honored His promise, (He is a faithful God), and has given me an abundance of revelation. I am aware however, that I have only begun to scratch the surface of the Wisdom that God has in store for those that seek His face.

Peace…

pinetree

26th July 2008, 11:39 AM

HOW FAITH COMES

So faith comes by hearing the Word of God. We all know that, and most of us can quote you chapter and verse.

But, like most things in the Bible, there is the simplistic statement, and then the deep things of God. There is so much packed into this one statement, I would like to explore it some.

For instance, not every one that hears has faith. We know that is true because the Bible says so.

Not everyone that hears the Word believes it. Some do, and some don’t. So we could say that faith comes with the Word, but it isn’t always received by the hearers.

As Jesus said:

This is the case today, same as it was yesterday, and same as it will be tomorrow. Some hear and receive, and some hear and do not.

REVELATION: THE KEYS TO FAITH

Revelation regarding knowledge of Him are the keys of the kingdom of heaven. The keys are plural because the promises are many. This knowledge of Him is provided by revelation of the great and precious promises:

So it is through the knowledge of Him whereby we are given these great and precious promises.
It is the Spirits job to take the knowledge of Him and use it to reveal to us the great and precious promises, to show us the great things that God has prepared for them that love Him:

The promises of God are revealed to us by the Spirit of God. It is the revelation of these promises that give us faith, because faith comes with the Word. Paul calls this the wisdom of God.

WHO CAN RECEIVE REVELATION AND FAITH?

I wanted to add this part, because some have said that we can only have the faith that God has granted us, some have more and some have less, and that is according to the will of God.

While I agree with most of that sentence, I disagree with the part that says that it is Gods will.

Gods will is that we know Him as well as we want to. Wisdom is not being withheld by the Father. Thus faith, which comes with wisdom (revelation of His Word) is also not being withheld by the Father.

It is simply up to us to ask for it:

And Paul prayed it for the early church daily:

Then we have to labour in the Word, searching the scriptures, and hearing it preached, and confessing the Word, to grow in the knowledge of Him. The more we learn about Him, the more the Spirit can reveal the promises to us.

CONCLUSION

On a personal note, this is what I did after I committed my life to Christ. A found out about Pauls prayer for the Ephesians, and I wrote it out in the first person and prayed it every day for myself for over two years. I also spent untold hours meditating in and memorizing the scriptures, whole books at a time.

And God honored His promise, (He is a faithful God), and has given me an abundance of revelation. I am aware however, that I have only begun to scratch the surface of the Wisdom that God has in store for those that seek His face.

Peace…
Romans 1:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=1&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)
Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.

Romans 4:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=4&verse=16&version=31&context=verse)
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

Romans 5:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=5&verse=2&version=31&context=verse)
through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

Romans 12:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

Romans 12:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=6&version=31&context=verse)
We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith.
1 Timothy 1:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=1&verse=14&version=31&context=verse)
The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
You forgot a major keyword..GRACE!
That puts the emphasis on God,NOT THE BELIEVER,WHO CAN NOT PRODUCE A SUPERNATURAL SUBSTANCE.
Also,here is another important verse to remember.

Romans 9:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=16&version=31&context=verse)
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Where should the emphasis be, Jesus,or me?

ARBITER01

26th July 2008, 11:46 AM

It's a nice thing to have spent quite a bit of time in GOD's word, but anyone can miss the mark in areas and not realise it,...

17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
-Romans 10:17

The word of GOD indicated here is the living Word, not the written word. Only Jesus gives us ears to hear. Faith involves a relationship with Jesus since we live by the faith of The Son of GOD.

Without this relationship foremost in our walk, our faith will have no works, it will be centered around knowledge. Those works that we are to have are these,..

12 ¶ (ASV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father.

That encompasses all the supernatural things GOD did through Jesus with the gifts also.

As I said in another thread, some folks seem to have more care for what GOD said instead of what HE says. It's suppose to be the other way around to be a son instead of a servant.

I'm not trying to condemn your study over the years, but we are to have works associated with our faith, and I don't see you pointing people towards that. If our house is to be built on the foundation of Jesus, then we shall build it correctly and thorough.

pinetree

26th July 2008, 11:49 AM

It's a nice thing to have spent quite a bit of time in GOD's word, but anyone can miss the mark in areas and not realise it,...

The word of GOD indicated here is the living Word, not the written word. Only Jesus gives us ears to hear. Faith involves a relationship with Jesus since we live by the faith of The Son of GOD.

Without this relationship foremost in our walk, our faith will have no works, it will be centered around knowledge. Those works that we are to have are these,..

That encompasses all the supernatural things GOD did through Jesus with the gifts also.

As I said in another thread, some folks seem to have more care for what GOD said instead of what HE says. It's suppose to be the other way around to be a son instead of a servant.

I'm not trying to condemn your study over the years, but we are to have works associated with our faith, and I don't see you pointing people towards that. If our house is to be built on the foundation of Jesus, then we shall build it correctly and thorough.
:thumbsup::thumbsup:

dkbwarrior

26th July 2008, 12:00 PM

Romans 9:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=16&version=31&context=verse)
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Where should the emphasis be, Jesus,or me?

Definately the emphases should be on Jesus, getting to know Him by way of the great and precious promises.

I am trying to define what it is that you are saying.

I believe that the grace of God was shed abroad upon all men. It is up to us to receive it by believing it.

You seem to be saying that God only gives grace to certain individuals whom He chooses, and not to others. Mabey I am misunderstanding you though?

Let me ask you this:

Is salvation available to everyone, or only a select few whom God has chosen?

Peace...

pinetree

26th July 2008, 12:55 PM

Definately the emphases should be on Jesus, getting to know Him by way of the great and precious promises.

I am trying to define what it is that you are saying.

I believe that the grace of God was shed abroad upon all men. It is up to us to receive it by believing it.

You seem to be saying that God only gives grace to certain individuals whom He chooses, and not to others. Mabey I am misunderstanding you though?

Let me ask you this:

Is salvation available to everyone, or only a select few whom God has chosen?

Peace...

Nope,just pointing out that with faith there seems to be a measure that God gives.Where with salvation I don't see a measure or an allotment in scripture.
Romans 12:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.
Romans 12:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=6&version=31&context=verse)
We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith.

Also,I was pointing out,that faith and grace run hand in hand.Lest we have legalism.
Romans 4:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=4&verse=16&version=31&context=verse)
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

The father of our faith,received it by grace.

dkbwarrior

26th July 2008, 01:31 PM

Nope,just pointing out that with faith there seems to be a measure that God gives.Where with salvation I don't see a measure or an allotment in scripture.

The father of our faith,received it by grace.

I think you are missing something here. It is not 'a measure of faith', it is the measure of faith.

In other words, it is not different for everybody. We all are given the same amount, the mustard seed amount that gets us born again, that enables us to make Jesus the Lord of our lives.

All the other great and precious promises whereby we know Him are contained within that seed of the Word of faith which we preach, His Lordship in our lives.

Just like any other seed, it depends how much we water it with study, prayer and confession that determines how well we get to know Him and thus how much that measure of faith increases.

The seed is such a perfect example of the kingdom. Do you know that the seed (like the measure of faith) contains within it the power (life) and information (dna) for every leaf, every branch, and every peice of fruit that it will ever produce? It is revealed by the dna of the seed. The only limitation to how much it will produce is the soil and the water that feeds it.

The same with Gods Word, and the faith that comes with it. Gods Word is the seed (the measure of faith), and contains within it the power (faith) and the information (hope) to bring it to pass. It is revealed by the Spirit of wisdom and revelation of the Word. It is only limited in its growth by the soil of our own hearts, (how open and/or resistant we are to Gods grace), and the water of the Word as we confess it and hear it.

You seem to be saying that God chooses who grows in the knowledge of Him. But this grace has been given to all, it is up to us to receive it.

11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
-Titus 2:11

Peace...

JimfromOhio

26th July 2008, 03:01 PM

JimfromOhio

26th July 2008, 04:24 PM

Its a simple question. :)

dkbwarrior

26th July 2008, 04:57 PM

Its a simple question. :)

I don't understand what you are asking. The writer of Hebrews said this:

14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
-Hebrews 3:14-4:14

The writer uses the story of those who could not enter into the promised land as an example for this lesson.

He says that the promise was preached to all of them, but most of them did not believe it. So the phrase not every one hears refers to the fact that though they all heard with their physical ears, they did not all hear with their spiritual ears, that is, they did not have a revelation that Gods promise was true and believe it.

If you remember the story, you will recall that only Joshua and Caleb entered into the promised land. They were the only ones that mixed faith with the promise, the only ones that believed it.

The rest of them probably said, "Why did you bring us out of Egypt to die by the hand of the giants? We aren't strong enough to take the land. Mabey God doesn't will for me to have it. After all, He hasn't given me the faith for it, so He must not want me to have it. Its grace after all, if God wants us to have it, He will pick us up and plop us down in Jerico after killing all the inhabitants. You want us to fight for it? That is works not grace, all you seem to be saying Moses is me, me, me. What about God, God, God?"

So God gave them the fruit of their unbelief. They didn't believe they could take the land, so God didn't let them have it. But the two who believed, Joshua and Caleb, God let them have it, although the unbelief of the rest of the nation delayed their receiving by 40 long years. Much as it is today.

Peace...

JimfromOhio

26th July 2008, 05:06 PM

I don't understand what you are asking. The writer of Hebrews said this:

14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

15While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
-Hebrews 3:14-4:14

The writer uses the story of those who could not enter into the promised land as an example for this lesson.

He says that the promise was preached to all of them, but most of them did not believe it. So the phrase not every one hears refers to the fact that though they all heard with their physical ears, they did not hear with their spiritual ears, that is, they did not believe it.

If you rmember the story, you will recall that only Joshua and Caleb entered into the promised land. They were the only ones that mixed faith with the promise, the only ones that believed it.

The rest of them probably said, "Why did you bring us out of Egypt to die by the hand of the giants? We aren't strong enough to take the land. Mabey God doesn't will for me to have it. After all, He hasn't given me the faith for it, so He must not want me to have it. Its grace after all, if God wants us to have it, He will pick us up and plop us down in Jerico after killing all the inhabitants. You want us to fight for it? That is works not grace, all you seem to be saying Moses is me, me, me. What about God, God, God?"

So God gave them the fruit of their unbelief. They didn't believe they could take the land, so God didn't let them have it. But the two who believed, Joshua and Caleb, God let them have it, although the unbelief of the rest of the nation delayed their receiving by 40 long years. Much as it is today.

Peace...

Why I am not surprised that you will respond a simple question with a LONG post.

Let's look at key verses:
Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.

Colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God (not ourselves), who raised him from the dead.

The saving faith and the faith to believe in God comes only from God by hearing the Holy Spirit. Now, what does "hearing" means? Looking at Romans 10:17 says in the original Greek, "Faith comes by hearing a speech about Christ." While "hearing" the good news (for deaf, reading signing), the Holy Spirit is busy convicting a sinner to repent.

Spiritual faith is so different than human faith, saving faith can only come from the Holy Spirit. You are saved when the Holy Spirit convicting YOU to repent and help you change your ways. Jesus said in one of the gospels (John) "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." The Holy Spirit have been trying to draw people to Him by convicting them to repent and put their faith in God. Jesus said in John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. So, by hearing the gospel is getting convicted by the Holy Spirit.

When a person do NOT acknowledge the Holy Spirit, that is explained in Mark 3:29 "But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." In Acts 7:51, "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!"

This is why I was asking a "simple question" and you come up with complicated faith's system of legalistic faith. ;)

pinetree

26th July 2008, 05:31 PM

I think you are missing something here. It is not 'a measure of faith', it is the measure of faith.

In other words, it is not different for everybody. We all are given the same amount, the mustard seed amount that gets us born again, that enables us to make Jesus the Lord of our lives.

All the other great and precious promises whereby we know Him are contained within that seed of the Word of faith which we preach, His Lordship in our lives.

Just like any other seed, it depends how much we water it with study, prayer and confession that determines how well we get to know Him and thus how much that measure of faith increases.

The seed is such a perfect example of the kingdom. Do you know that the seed (like the measure of faith) contains within it the power (life) and information (dna) for every leaf, every branch, and every peice of fruit that it will ever produce? It is revealed by the dna of the seed. The only limitation to how much it will produce is the soil and the water that feeds it.

The same with Gods Word, and the faith that comes with it. Gods Word is the seed (the measure of faith), and contains within it the power (faith) and the information (hope) to bring it to pass. It is revealed by the Spirit of wisdom and revelation of the Word. It is only limited in its growth by the soil of our own hearts, (how open and/or resistant we are to Gods grace), and the water of the Word as we confess it and hear it.

You seem to be saying that God chooses who grows in the knowledge of Him. But this grace has been given to all, it is up to us to receive it.

11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
-Titus 2:11

Peace...
What is the difference if it is the measure or a measure??

It proves thar each has a different amount.

Unlike salvation which was you previous point (post 5 )in the difference of fait/grace or salvation/grace.

dkbwarrior

26th July 2008, 05:32 PM

Why I am not surprised that you will respond a simple question with a LONG post.

Let's look at key verses:
Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.

Colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God (not ourselves), who raised him from the dead.

The saving faith and the faith to believe in God comes only from God by hearing the Holy Spirit. Now, what does "hearing" means? Looking at Romans 10:17 says in the original Greek, "Faith comes by hearing a speech about Christ." While "hearing" the good news (for deaf, reading signing), the Holy Spirit is busy convicting a sinner to repent.

Spiritual faith is so different than human faith, saving faith can only come from the Holy Spirit. You are saved when the Holy Spirit convicting YOU to repent and help you change your ways. Jesus said in one of the gospels (John) "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." The Holy Spirit have been trying to draw people to Him by convicting them to repent and put their faith in God. Jesus said in John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. So, by hearing the gospel is getting convicted by the Holy Spirit.

When a person do NOT acknowledge the Holy Spirit, that is explained in Mark 3:29 "But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." In Acts 7:51, "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!"

This is why I was asking a "simple question" and you come up with complicated faith's system of legalistic faith. ;)

And your post was short? ;)

Peace...

JimfromOhio

26th July 2008, 05:39 PM

And your post was short? ;)

Peace...

I was going to make it short but realized that you won't "get my post" unless I have a complete post. ;):P

pinetree

26th July 2008, 05:43 PM

I was going to make it short but realized that you won't "get my post" unless I have a complete post. ;):P
;):):wave:

dkbwarrior

26th July 2008, 05:57 PM

I was going to make it short but realized that you won't "get my post" unless I have a complete post. ;):P

I still didn't get your post. You rarely are very clear about what you are saying.

Peace...

dkbwarrior

26th July 2008, 06:08 PM

What is the difference if it is the measure or a measure??

It proves thar each has a different amount.

Unlike salvation which was you previous point (post 5 )in the difference of fait/grace or salvation/grace.

Wrong.

The denotes one of one. A denotes one of many.

The car means you are talking about one specific car. A car means you are talking about any one of many cars.

The measure means we are talking about one specific measure. A measure means we are talking about any one of many measures.

English is constructed the way it is for a reason. The is a singular reference. There is one measurement of faith, and everyong receives that same measurement. It is the dna so to speak of the Word of Faith by which we are saved.

All mustard seeds have the same dna strand. One doesn't have more than another unless it is defective. All believers have the same measure of faith. One believer doesn't have more than another. Now, how much it reproduces itself in you is a different matter all together. That depends entirely on how well you feed it.

What you do with it after you receive it separates those who will know Him from those who will not.

Peace...

JimfromOhio

26th July 2008, 06:33 PM

I still didn't get your post. You rarely are very clear about what you are saying.

Peace...

Are you saying that you don't understand the Holy Spirit's role of a person hearing the gospel and spiritual growth?

pinetree

26th July 2008, 09:08 PM

Wrong.

The denotes one of one. A denotes one of many.

The car means you are talking about one specific car. A car means you are talking about any one of many cars.

The measure means we are talking about one specific measure. A measure means we are talking about any one of many measures.

English is constructed the way it is for a reason. The is a singular reference. There is one measurement of faith, and everyong receives that same measurement. It is the dna so to speak of the Word of Faith by which we are saved.

All mustard seeds have the same dna strand. One doesn't have more than another unless it is defective. All believers have the same measure of faith. One believer doesn't have more than another. Now, how much it reproduces itself in you is a different matter all together. That depends entirely on how well you feed it.

What you do with it after you receive it separates those who will know Him from those who will not.

Peace...
Romans 12:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=3&version=9&context=verse)
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. kjv the measure

Romans 12:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=6&version=9&context=verse)
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
kjv, the proportion

Romans 12:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=3&version=49&context=verse)
For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
nasb , A measure

Romans 12:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=3&version=15&context=verse)
For I say, through the grace that was given to me, to every one who is among you, not to think above what it behoveth to think; but to think so as to think wisely, as to each God did deal a measure of faith,
youngs literal , A measure

Romans 12:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=3&version=45&context=verse)
For by the grace (unmerited favor of God) given to me I warn everyone among you not to estimate and think of himself more highly than he ought [not to have an exaggerated opinion of his own importance], but to rate his ability with sober judgment, each according to the degree of faith apportioned by God to him.
amplified says degree,will have to study what degree means.Sounds like an amount.:D

Romans 12:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=3&version=50&context=verse)
[ Serve God with Spiritual Gifts ] For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. new king james version , A measure

Romans 12:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=6&version=47&context=verse)
Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith;
english standard version, no A or THE. :scratch:

Romans 12:6 if it is that of preaching,let it be done in proportion to our faith.

(no a or the) Williams Translation.

Ok,seems like we got some A's and the's Pick a verse and go with it!:D

dkbwarrior

26th July 2008, 09:41 PM

Romans 12:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=3&version=9&context=verse)
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. kjv the measure

Romans 12:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=6&version=9&context=verse)
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
kjv, the proportion

Romans 12:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=3&version=49&context=verse)
For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
nasb , A measure

Romans 12:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=3&version=15&context=verse)
For I say, through the grace that was given to me, to every one who is among you, not to think above what it behoveth to think; but to think so as to think wisely, as to each God did deal a measure of faith,
youngs literal , A measure

Romans 12:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=3&version=45&context=verse)
For by the grace (unmerited favor of God) given to me I warn everyone among you not to estimate and think of himself more highly than he ought [not to have an exaggerated opinion of his own importance], but to rate his ability with sober judgment, each according to the degree of faith apportioned by God to him.
amplified says degree,will have to study what degree means.Sounds like an amount.:D

Romans 12:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=3&version=50&context=verse)
[ Serve God with Spiritual Gifts ] For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. new king james version , A measure

Romans 12:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=6&version=47&context=verse)
Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith;
english standard version, no A or THE. :scratch:

Romans 12:6 if it is that of preaching,let it be done in proportion to our faith.

(no a or the) Williams Translation.

Ok,seems like we got some A's and the's Pick a verse and go with it!:D

Hmmm....

Interesting.

I don't have the time right now to study out the Greek artical preceding the word, or to compare it to other places with the same article. It would be an interesting study.

I suspect however, that I would be right about this. It fits to well with the rest of what I know about faith.

Will get to it when I can though.

Peace...

pinetree

26th July 2008, 10:05 PM

Hmmm....

Interesting.

I don't have the time right now to study out the Greek artical preceding the word, or to compare it to other places with the same article. It would be an interesting study.

I suspect however, that I would be right about this. It fits to well with the rest of what I know about faith.

Will get to it when I can though.

Peace...
Fun chatting with ya bro.Remember..brother pinetree is a man of faith too ya know. He just wants it to be preached through grace.

JimfromOhio

27th July 2008, 09:49 AM

dkbwarrior

27th July 2008, 10:36 PM

dkbwarrior

What part of my post you don't understand. Majority of the post are scriptural verses relating to the Holy Spirit. Are you saying that you don't understand the Holy Spirit's role of a person hearing the gospel and spiritual growth?

I believe that it is the Spirit that reveals the Word to us. But God doesn't with hold revelation from some, and give it to others, based on some unknowable and sovereign will. He will give us what ever revelation we ask for.

5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
-James 1:5-7

Notice that God gives this wisdom to all men liberally, all they have to do is ask in faith. God is no respecter of persons.

Peace...

JimfromOhio

27th July 2008, 10:43 PM

I believe that it is the Spirit that reveals the Word to us. But God doesn't with hold revelation from some, and give it to others, based on some unknowable and sovereign will. He will give us what ever revelation we ask for.

5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
-James 1:5-7

Notice that God gives this wisdom to all men liberally, all they have to do is ask in faith. God is no respecter of persons.

Peace...
Look in CONTEXT!
James 1:2-5 Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

I can have GREAT knowledge but if I don't have spiritual wisdom, my knowledge is worthless. Biblically, God will grant the strength to endure hardship. He will grant spiritual wisdom. Finally, He will bless those who are faithful, those who trust Him through affliction. (2 Corinthians 12:9-10, 2 Corinthians 4:7-12, 16-18, James 1:12, and Revelation 2:10).

Wisdom sees everything in focus and be able to trust God no matter what happens. All God's acts are done in perfect wisdom for His own glory.

Not until we have become humble and teachable, standing in awe of God's holiness and sovereignty... acknowledging our own littleness, distrusting our own thoughts, and willing to have our minds turned upside down, can divine wisdom become ours.

JimfromOhio

27th July 2008, 10:45 PM

Notice that God gives this wisdom to all men liberally, all they have to do is ask in faith. God is no respecter of persons.

Peace...
That's right. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. He is no respector of persons. This SINFUL world do NOT discriminate between believers and unbelievers. Plane crashes, boat sinkings, train accidents, car collisions, heart disease, cancer doesn't discriminate between a sinner and a saint, or between a sinner and a sinner. People got sick, hurt, disabled and even DIED.

dkbwarrior

28th July 2008, 01:06 AM

Not until we have become humble and teachable, standing in awe of God's holiness and sovereignty... acknowledging our own littleness, distrusting our own thoughts, and willing to have our minds turned upside down, can divine wisdom become ours.

Let me see if I can find that in the scripture there:

5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6But let him ask in faith, acknowledging our own littleness, distrusting our own thoughts, and willing to have our minds turned upside down nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
-James 1:5-7

You are right! There it is! Now why didn't I see that the first time I read it?

:doh:

Peace...

dkbwarrior

28th July 2008, 01:14 AM

That's right. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. He is no respector of persons. This SINFUL world do NOT discriminate between believers and unbelievers. Plane crashes, boat sinkings, train accidents, car collisions, heart disease, cancer doesn't discriminate between a sinner and a saint, or between a sinner and a sinner. People got sick, hurt, disabled and even DIED.

Wow! I had know idea that God was so involved in the whole death business. I thought that death was the business of the devil:

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
-Hebrews 4:14-15

10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy...
-John 10:10a

I thought that God was in the healing and life business:

38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
-Acts 10:38

10...I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
John 10:120b

I think you may have God and the devil a little mixed up there partner.

Peace...

JimfromOhio

28th July 2008, 06:06 AM

Let me see if I can find that in the scripture there:

5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6But let him ask in faith, acknowledging our own littleness, distrusting our own thoughts, and willing to have our minds turned upside down nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
-James 1:5-7

You are right! There it is! Now why didn't I see that the first time I read it?

:doh:

Peace...
Yep... this is where people forget grace because they were relying own their flesh (i.e. own thoughts). In Ephesians 4:23 says, "Be renewed in the spirit of your mind" which means I am not to think the way I did before I knew Christ. In Galatians 5:16 says "Walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh." As Christians we possess the indwelling Spirit (Rom. 8:9). In fact our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:19). As the Spirit moves and leads, we are to respond moment by moment, step by step, and day by day, relying on His power and direction by faith through His grace.
Wow! I had know idea that God was so involved in the whole death business. I thought that death was the business of the devil:

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
-Hebrews 4:14-15

10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy...
-John 10:10a

I thought that God was in the healing and life business:

38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
-Acts 10:38

10...I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
John 10:120b

I think you may have God and the devil a little mixed up there partner.

Peace...
Well, let me refer you to the Old Testament (remember God never change). I will bring up one example (there are more). The Flood. :wave:

dkbwarrior

28th July 2008, 08:50 AM

Well, let me refer you to the Old Testament (remember God never change). I will bring up one example (there are more). The Flood. :wave:

Well, judgements of God on the wicked are a whole different debate, and not one I want to have in this thread. Though I may start another one soon.

I was referring to this statement of yours:

That's right. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Plane crashes, boat sinkings, train accidents, car collisions, heart disease, cancer doesn't discriminate between a sinner and a saint, or between a sinner and a sinner. People got sick, hurt, disabled and even DIED.

I said that God is no respecter of persons, He gives to all men liberally and upbraideth not, (James 1) and you answer by saying, "Thats right. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Plane crashes, boat sinkings, train accidents, car collisions, heart disease, cancer...".

What a strange view of the Father. One not found in scripture I might add.

Peace...

pinetree

28th July 2008, 09:32 AM

Well, judgements of God on the wicked are a whole different debate, and not one I want to have in this thread. Though I may start another one soon.

I was referring to this statement of yours:

I said that God is no respecter of persons, He gives to all men liberally and upbraideth not, (James 1) and you answer by saying, "Thats right. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Plane crashes, boat sinkings, train accidents, car collisions, heart disease, cancer...".

What a strange view of the Father. One not found in scripture I might add.

Peace...
dkb:wave:

Since your thread is about how faith comes..

Could you do me a favor.:)

A fresh new idea!:idea:

Lets switch roles..:D

Do your best to convince me,how faith,and all the aspects of it,operate through grace.
Make a post like you really wanted to convince me.

Curious.

Thank you in advance.:thumbsup:

Faithful Love

28th July 2008, 03:27 PM

Faith comes by hearing, but first one has to WANT to hear.

JimfromOhio

28th July 2008, 05:30 PM

Faith comes by hearing, but first one has to WANT to hear.
How does one "want" to hear? (warning: its a trick question because the answer is obvious ;))

Faithful Love

28th July 2008, 05:39 PM

How does one "want" to hear? (warning: its a trick question because the answer is obvious ;))

If it is so obvious, why play games?:confused:

JimfromOhio

28th July 2008, 05:50 PM

If it is so obvious, why play games?:confused:
Do you know the answer?

pinetree

28th July 2008, 05:59 PM

Faith comes by hearing, but first one has to WANT to hear.
:wave:hi
why is the presumtion that we dont want to hear?

dkbwarrior

28th July 2008, 06:00 PM

How does one "want" to hear? (warning: its a trick question because the answer is obvious ;))

The desire/love for God comes from God, through His Spirit.

Revelation/wisdom comes from the Spirit revealing the Word.

Faith and Hope come from the revelation of the Word.

Peace...

JimfromOhio

28th July 2008, 06:00 PM

Hints:
John 6:44
John 6:65

Spoken by Jesus

JimfromOhio

28th July 2008, 06:04 PM

The desire/love for God comes from God, through His Spirit.

Revelation/wisdom comes from the Spirit revealing the Word.

Faith and Hope come from the revelation of the Word.

Peace...
Key words from Jesus, "drawn" and "enable"

1 Thessalonians 1:5 "because our gospel came to you not simply with words (hearing the gospel), but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake."

Jesus in John 6:29 "The work of God is this: to believe in the one He has sent."

Jesus said in John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing (choice/decision). The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Its not about choice but about conviction.

The Holy Spirit convicts a sinner to be saved when they "hear" the gospel.

dkbwarrior

28th July 2008, 07:31 PM

Key words from Jesus, "drawn" and "enable"

1 Thessalonians 1:5 "because our gospel came to you not simply with words (hearing the gospel), but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake."

Jesus in John 6:29 "The work of God is this: to believe in the one He has sent."

Jesus said in John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing (choice/decision). The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Its not about choice but about conviction.

The Holy Spirit convicts a sinner to be saved when they "hear" the gospel.

Does God convict everyone when they hear the gospel?

dkbwarrior

28th July 2008, 07:51 PM

dkb

Since your thread is about how faith comes..

Could you do me a favor.

A fresh new idea!

Lets switch roles..

Do your best to convince me,how faith,and all the aspects of it,operate through grace.
Make a post like you really wanted to convince me.

Curious.

Thank you in advance.

Well, I thought I already went there...

We cannot have conviction, revelation, wisdom from God without the Holy Spirit giving it to us. We agree on this.

Jim and I also agree on this.

The catcher is this:

I believe that God reveals Himself to everyone by way of revelation of the glorious gospel of Christ. Then we have the free will to accept or reject Him as revealed in the exceeding great and precious promises thus choosing how much of the divine nature we desire to partake of.

Jim believes that God chooses to reveal Hiself to some, and not to others. This of course is Calvinism. It says that God will judge those who have not believed, even though God purposely withheld the ability to believe from them.

You seem to have a slightly different take. You seem to think that faith for salvation is different than faith for the promises. That God reveals Himself to everyone regarding salvation, but not neccesarily so regarding the promises.

Jims doctrine I have heard before. It is the doctrine of a Narcissitic Super Soveriegn, who takes pleasure in inflicting pain. Calvinism does not understand love, except as a means to satifaction for the Father. They view Gods love, much the same way a fornicator views love. As a means of self satisfaction for God. As in, "God so loved Himself, that He gave His only begotten Son...". Everything God does is for selfish reasons, for His own glory, (which of course, is the opposite of love.)

Calvinism, and associated reformed theologies don't understand that Gods love is sacrificial, and giving. God loved the world, that is why He sent His Son, because He wanted to give to the world salvation. Not for His sake, because He loved Himself; but for our sake, because he loved us.

I understand this theology, (though I think it is from the pit of hell), but I understand it. At least it is consistent. They believe that only those that God foreordains are saved, and only those God foreordains are healed, and only those God foreordains are prospered. Others God foreordains to have cancer, or be born lame, or be raped and tortured, or be aborted before birth. And all of this He does for Himself alone, because to them, the love of God is God loving Himself. This is their God. The narcissist, and the torturer.

Your theology I have never heard before. Sorta like you have different rules for how revelation and faith operate, depending on what promise you are talking about. Kinda like you have an Arminian view of salvation, but a Calvinist view of the rest of the scripture.

If it is salvation, we all have a choice, but if its healing, God withholds faith from some, and gives to others. I'm not sure I can reconcile that, either logically, or scriptually.

Peace...

ARBITER01

28th July 2008, 07:53 PM

The desire/love for God comes from God, through His Spirit.

Revelation/wisdom comes from the Spirit revealing the Word.

Faith and Hope come from the revelation of the Word.

Peace...

Again, absolutely wrong on your part. That is Hagin speaking through you.

We live by the faith of The Son of GOD, not the faith of The King James Bible, or insert your favorite one here.

We are to have a personal relationship with GOD, not our bible.

You're teaching people to idolize the bible instead of draw near unto GOD.

pinetree

28th July 2008, 07:57 PM

Well, I thought I already went there...

We cannot have conviction, revelation, wisdom from God without the Holy Spirit giving it to us. We agree on this.

Jim and I also agree on this.

The catcher is this:

I believe that God reveals Himself to everyone by way of revelation of the glorious gospel of Christ. Then we have the free will to accept or reject Him as revealed in the Word on a promise by promise basis.

Jim believes that God chooses to reveal Hiself to some, and not to others. This of course is Calvinism. It says that God will judge those who have not believed, even though God pruposely withheld the ability to believe from them.

You seem to have a slightly different take. You seem to think that faith for salvation is different than faith for the promises. That God reveals Himself to everyone regarding salvation, but not neccesarily so regarding the promises.

Jims doctrine I have heard before. It is the doctrine of a Narcissitic Super Soveriegn, who takes pleasure in inflicting pain. Calvinism does not understand love, except as a means to satifaction for the Father. They view Gods love, much the same way a fornicator views love. As a means of self satisfaction for God. As in, "God so loved Himself, that He gave His only begotten Son...". Everything God does is for selfish reasons, for His own glory, (which of course, is the opposite of love.)

Calvinism, and associated reformed theologies don't understand that Gods love is sacrificial, and giving. God loved the world, that is why He sent His Son, because He wanted to give to the world salvation. Not for His sake, because He loved Himself; but for our sake, because he loved us.

I understand this theology, (though I think it is from the pit of hell), but I understand it. At least it is consistent. They believe that only those that God foreordains are saved, and only those God foreordains are healed, and only those God foreordains are prospered. Others God foreordains to have cancer, or be born lame, or be raped and tortured, or be aborted before birth. And all of this He does for Himself alone, because to them, the love of God is God loving Himself. This is their God. The narcissist, and the torturer.

Your theology I have never heard before. Sorta like you have different rules for how revelation and faith operate, depending on what promise you are talking about.

If it is salvation, we all have a choice, but if its healing, God withholds faith from some, and gives to others. I'm not sure I can reconcile that, either logically, or scriptually.

Peace...
how was that a teaching on how faith operates through grace?

you didn't even say the word...grace..

you did not even abstracty or remotely come close to a sharring on grace..

dkbwarrior

28th July 2008, 08:21 PM

how was that a teaching on how faith operates through grace?

you didn't even say the word...grace..

you did not even abstracty or remotely come close to a sharring on grace..

No, I didn't. But I did say this:

We cannot have conviction, revelation, wisdom from God without the Holy Spirit giving it to us. We agree on this.

Jim and I also agree on this.

Giving, Gods goodness, are just different terms for grace. Grace is God givning to the world salvation freely, and without charge.

Unmerited favour. The goodness of God. Grace is an assumed starting point to me, in every conversation about God, because everything that comes from God to us comes from grace.

That is why I don't understand you belabouring a point that we all agree on.

I believe that Gods grace, His unmerited favour are available to all men. Do you?

Or do you think that God gives grace to some, and not to others?

Peace...

dkbwarrior

28th July 2008, 08:27 PM

Again, absolutely wrong on your part. That is Hagin speaking through you.

We live by the faith of The Son of GOD, not the faith of The King James Bible, or insert your favorite one here.

We are to have a personal relationship with GOD, not our bible.

You're teaching people to idolize the bible instead of draw near unto GOD.

I'm glad you don't need a Bible. I do.

I guess I am not as spiritual as you. But at least I know that I am with Gods Spirit, the one that agrees with the written Word. Not some spirit that doesn't agree with the Word.

Peace...

pinetree

28th July 2008, 08:28 PM

No, I didn't. But I did say this:

Giving, Gods goodness, are just different terms for grace. Grace is God givning to the world salvation freely, and without charge.

Unmerited favour. The goodness of God. Grace is an assumed starting point to me, in every conversation about God, because everything that comes from God to us comes from grace.

That is why I don't understand you belabouring a point that we all agree on.

I believe that Gods grace, His unmerited favour are available to all men. Do you?

Or do you think that God gives grace to some, and not to others?

Peace...
well what I mean is this

pretend i was a student,and i asked you

could you plese give me an in depth teaching on how faith and grace operate together,using scripture,and maybe some of your life experiences.

something like that..Thank you!:thumbsup:

ARBITER01

28th July 2008, 08:51 PM

I'm glad you don't need a Bible. I do.

I guess I am not as spiritual as you. But at least I know that I am with Gods Spirit, the one that agrees with the written Word. Not some spirit that doesn't agree with the Word.

Peace...

I have The Holy Spirit as much as anyone else that has received their seal of redemption, I just paid more attention to Jesus when I was maturing instead of hagin.

Jesus comes before anything down here, he is our life.

He is the one who loves me, not my bible. He is the one who I must remain in love with, not my bible.

Our bible is important, but never more important than Jesus. You can only learn so much about Him from reading about Him. Christianity is about a person, not a book.

map4

28th July 2008, 09:09 PM

I have The Holy Spirit as much as anyone else that has received their seal of redemption, I just paid more attention to Jesus when I was maturing instead of hagin.

Jesus comes before anything down here, he is our life.

He is the one who loves me, not my bible. He is the one who I must remain in love with, not my bible.

Our bible is important, but never more important than Jesus. You can only learn so much about Him from reading about Him. Christianity is about a person, not a book.

I undestand what you are saying.
We have to have a relationship or the word won't really mean anything to us.

I do love the word, I don't worship it, but I love it.
God gave us His written word for a reason. He does want us to use it because it reveals so much about Him and His will and plan for us. And the Holy Spirit brings new insights as we need them. Or when we are ready for the deeper things of God.

We hide the word in our hearts...but the Spirit brings it to our remembrance. He is our teacher and our guide in all things. He speaks what the Father speaks.

The NT saints didn't have the NT to go by. They did have the OT.
Jesus was around some and taught them much. But some things could not be understood until He left and the Holy Spirit came. Because, again, He shows us the deeper things of God. There was a new covenant made...a convenant of grace. The Holy Spirit had to reveal that to them.
And now, we have the Spirit and the word. Both are much needed.

JimfromOhio

28th July 2008, 09:11 PM

Does God convict everyone when they hear the gospel?
He tries but when a person do NOT acknowledge the Holy Spirit, that is explained in Mark 3:29 "But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

Also explained in Acts 7:51, "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!"

Unbelief have to do rejection of the Holy Spirit.

Without the Holy Spirit, we do NOT have the "ability" to get saved or even understand the Word of God. The Holy Spirit is convicting everyone as in Matthew 22:14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen."

Paul reminds us in this verse, Galatians 3:2
This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing (conviction) of faith?

Its the condition of the heart determines how receptive a person is to the the conviction of the Holy Spirit when hearing the gospel, NOT the mind when making decisions. Jesus said in John 4:36 Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now he harvests the crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad together.

JimfromOhio

28th July 2008, 09:19 PM

I'm glad you don't need a Bible. I do.

I guess I am not as spiritual as you. But at least I know that I am with Gods Spirit, the one that agrees with the written Word. Not some spirit that doesn't agree with the Word.

Peace...
Nope, its not even if one is more spiritual than the other. Its a person's heart and whether a person is allowing God's grace work in his/her life.

While God reveals Himself primarily through the pages of Scripture; that is why I believe the Bible as my absolute authority. As divinely revealed truth, it carries the full weight of God's own authority. God's Word (the Bible) sometimes wounds us deeply and it is imperative because through the Bible, God speaks loudly when the Holy Spirit is busy working inside you, convicting you, transforming you, and renewing you.

Sometimes some Christians can't simply because they are allowing their flesh to control their beliefs more than they allow the Holy Spirit and Grace. In 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. In order to "revere" the Word of God (Bible), you submit to the Holy Spirit who is the Author of the Bible. There are those who resist (grieving) the Holy Spirit's sanctification process because they want something more than what God is offering through His grace.

My Bible is my authority but at the same time, I will never put my faith in the Bible ahead of God, the Author. Spiritual growth requires us to understand the Scriptures and get to know our God the Father, our Savior the Son, and our comforter the Holy Spirit. “Put on salvation as your helmet, and take the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God.” Ephesians 6:17 (NLT)

dkbwarrior

28th July 2008, 09:27 PM

He tries but when a person do NOT acknowledge the Holy Spirit, that is explained in Mark 3:29 "But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

So what gives a person the ability to acknowledge the Holy Spirit? Does everyone that hears the gospel have the ability to acknowledge the Holy Spirit?

Peace...

ARBITER01

28th July 2008, 09:28 PM

dkbwarrior

28th July 2008, 09:28 PM

While God reveals Himself primarily through the pages of Scripture; that is why I believe the Bible as my absolute authority. As divinely revealed truth, it carries the full weight of God's own authority. God's Word (the Bible) sometimes wounds us deeply and it is imperative because through the Bible, God speaks loudly when the Holy Spirit is busy working inside you, convicting you, transforming you, and renewing you.

I agree with you 100% on this.

Peace...

dkbwarrior

28th July 2008, 09:37 PM

I undestand what you are saying.
We have to have a relationship or the word won't really mean anything to us.

I do love the word, I don't worship it, but I love it.
God gave us His written word for a reason. He does want us to use it because it reveals so much about Him and His will and plan for us. And the Holy Spirit brings new insights as we need them. Or when we are ready for the deeper things of God.

We hide the word in our hearts...but the Spirit brings it to our remembrance. He is our teacher and our guide in all things. He speaks what the Father speaks.

The NT saints didn't have the NT to go by. They did have the OT.
Jesus was around some and taught them much. But some things could not be understood until He left and the Holy Spirit came. Because, again, He shows us the deeper things of God. There was a new covenant made...a convenant of grace. The Holy Spirit had to reveal that to them.
And now, we have the Spirit and the word. Both are much needed.

I agree 100% with this.

The written Word does nothing for us without the Holy Spirit revealing it to us.

That is why I said that faith comes from revelation of the Word by the Spirit.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
-John 14:25-26

13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
-John 16:13-15

Knowing the Word can put us in a position to receive revelation from the Spirit, because it prepares our hearts, but knowing the Word without revelation of the Word is simply knowledge without wisdom. Wisdom and revelation IN the knowledge of Him is what we are after. It is never wisdom and revelation outside the knowledge of Him.

17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
-Ephesians 1:17-19

Peace...

JimfromOhio

28th July 2008, 09:39 PM

So, we have to remember when phrasing "Faith and Hope come from the revelation of the Word" that we don't get credit for receiving the revelation because it is through grace that we recieved the revelation through the Holy Spirit who is within us. Victory is the Holy Spirit convicted us and Christ is us, we all experience the power of the Holy Spirit to gain victory over sin, we may never attain total dominance over our flesh's drives and passions. It is not what Believer does in faith but why a believer have faith that determines his/her spiritual quality by seeing HOW their spiritual actions are performed in their dependence on God rather than on their faith.

JimfromOhio

28th July 2008, 09:44 PM

In terms of wisdom, in 1 Corinthians, chapter 2, Paul shunned manipulative form of altar calls or fashion. Paul wrote in verse 4, "My message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom".

I can have GREAT knowledge but if I don't have spiritual wisdom, my knowledge is worthless. Spiritual wisdom sees everything in focus and be able to trust God no matter what happens. If Christ is the wisdom of God and the power of God in the experience of those who trust and love Him, there needs no further argument of His Divinity.

"A man may be theologically knowing and spiritually ignorant" Stephen Charnock

There is head knowledge, head and heart and just heart knowledge. In knowing God (not just about Him) the heart must be involved. A.W. Tozer

TheBloodOfJesus

28th July 2008, 09:46 PM

My Bible is my authority but at the same time, I will never put my faith in the Bible ahead of God, the Author.

What exactly do you find in the Bible that leads you to turn your faith away from God?

I am really curious what the Bible is telling you that might cause you to step away from God...

Chapter and verse.

Very interesting.

dkbwarrior

28th July 2008, 09:47 PM

ARBITER01

28th July 2008, 09:50 PM

dkbwarrior

28th July 2008, 10:10 PM

In terms of wisdom, in 1 Corinthians, chapter 2, Paul shunned manipulative form of altar calls or fashion. Paul wrote in verse 4, "My message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom".

I am not a great fan of the altar call myself. But I don't see how that scripture is saying anything about altar calls. This is the reason that I and others have a hard time seeing any logic in your posts sometimes. You make a conclusion, and then tie a scripture to it that is totally irrelevant.

Paul said that his preaching was not in persuasive words of wisdom, (kjv mans wisdom). I get that. But he didn't say anything about altar calls.

Peace...

pinetree

28th July 2008, 10:17 PM

pinetree

28th July 2008, 10:26 PM

ARBITER01

28th July 2008, 11:07 PM

Galations 1:11 I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

Exactly.

Every single letter past acts is by revelation from GOD HIMSELF.

Paul gleened many things out of the OT, but he was led by The Spirit of GOD, not the words of the OT. We are to grow past being a servant into sonship, that will not happen without hearing and obeying The Father. That means we have ears to hear, not eyes to hear, and to have those ears requires a active relationship with HIM.

Such things are so simple, I don't know why I find myself having to reiterate such a basic fact of Christianity on here.

JimfromOhio

29th July 2008, 08:45 AM

What exactly do you find in the Bible that leads you to turn your faith away from God?

I am really curious what the Bible is telling you that might cause you to step away from God...

Chapter and verse.

Very interesting.
When you step beyond the Word of God, you’ve overstepped the bounds of your spiritual authority.

As I said in my post, the Scribes and Pharisees were guilty of bibliolatry and they did highly honor the words of Scripture (Old Testament). They knew the Book however, the biggest issues is that it is so tragic that the knowing the words of the Book but they did NOT know the Author. "You know neither me nor my Father," pronounced Jesus. For example, to know the precepts, but not the living God.

JimfromOhio

29th July 2008, 08:48 AM

Which is why I said (in context):

I said the same thing you said, you just apparently didn't see the whole thing.

Peace...
Actually, in terms of "revelation", there are those that went BEYOND the scriptures and they are guilty of producing 'revelation" that did not come from God.

JimfromOhio

29th July 2008, 08:52 AM

I am not a great fan of the altar call myself. But I don't see how that scripture is saying anything about altar calls. This is the reason that I and others have a hard time seeing any logic in your posts sometimes. You make a conclusion, and then tie a scripture to it that is totally irrelevant.

Paul said that his preaching was not in persuasive words of wisdom, (kjv mans wisdom). I get that. But he didn't say anything about altar calls.

Peace...
Any "persuasive words" tends to produce a superficial conviction of sin, if any at all. This work is the work of the Holy Spirit, and His work alone, and no one else can do it. And, as it is His work, it is always a thorough work; and is always a work that will show itself (1 Thessalonians 1:5)

The most common "persuasive words" that WOF use (abuses) is "God has revealed to me".

JimfromOhio

29th July 2008, 08:55 AM

Very good word.

Wisdom has several defintions, but I always viewed it as the righteous application of knowledge and truth.

Another person on the main forum stated things like this:

"Too much knowledge puffs up, too much Spirit blows up, a balance of both one grows up."
Yep, a humbled Christian is a Christian with flaws which humbles them that is more useful to God than hypocrite action that puffs them up.

JimfromOhio

29th July 2008, 09:02 AM

Galations 1:11 I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

That's one verse people often forget.

I look back over my life and I can remember many things God has accomplished in my life and the lifes of other people around me. This is a very sure verification of God's truth than a personal manifestation of God.

For me forget them is rejecting God's revelations. My life's experiences were nothing is more authoritative than biblical truth other than understanding what God is leading me. A Christian recognizes the inspiration and authority of biblical revelation when the Spirit of God convinces him its true.

dkbwarrior

29th July 2008, 09:58 AM

When you step beyond the Word of God, you’ve overstepped the bounds of your spiritual authority.

As I said in my post, the Scribes and Pharisees were guilty of bibliolatry and they did highly honor the words of Scripture (Old Testament). They knew the Book however, the biggest issues is that it is so tragic that the knowing the words of the Book but they did NOT know the Author. "You know neither me nor my Father," pronounced Jesus. For example, to know the precepts, but not the living God.

And what has that to do with altar calls?

Peace...

pinetree

29th July 2008, 10:07 AM

That's one verse people often forget.

I look back over my life and I can remember many things God has accomplished in my life and the lifes of other people around me. This is a very sure verification of God's truth than a personal manifestation of God.

For me forget them is rejecting God's revelations. My life's experiences were nothing is more authoritative than biblical truth other than understanding what God is leading me. A Christian recognizes the inspiration and authority of biblical revelation when the Spirit of God convinces him its true.
:thumbsup:

JimfromOhio

29th July 2008, 10:16 AM

And what has that to do with altar calls?

Peace...
Altar calls uses "persuasive words". Obviously.

dkbwarrior

5th August 2008, 08:18 AM

JimfromOhio

5th August 2008, 12:49 PM

Anyway, back to the topic and the OP. Faith comes by revelation of the promises of God. We must learn the scriptures to learn the promises, but until the Holy Spirit gives us revelation of those promises, they are just the written Word.

With revelation comes faith. The Word becomes alive in us then, what we could call Rhema.

Therefore, we need to not just study the scriptures and search out the promises, but we must needs pray for revelation, as Paul prayed for it for the Ephesian church.

Peace...
God's promise is eternal because Christ is the mediator of the covenant, that we receive the promised eternal inheritance.

Titus 1:2 that said "a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time."

Paul wrote, "For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come" (1Tim 4:8).

God's Promise which God has entered guarantees reconciliation. We are reconciled to God. God's gracious new will—His promise—guarantees eternal pardon.

dkbwarrior

13th August 2008, 10:40 AM

17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
-Romans 10:17

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. We all know that, and most of us can quote you chapter and verse.

But, like most things in the Bible, there is so much more to it, if you just start digging. There is so much packed into this one statement, I would like to explore it some.

For instance, the writer didn’t say that faith comes by hearing the Word. No, really, he didn’t. He said faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

You see, there are two different kinds of hearing. There is the hearing that one does with the ears, that is, absorbing sound through the physical ear and sending it to the brain to be processed; and then there is the hearing that one does with the heart, when one truly understands what is being communicated.

Jesus said it this way:

13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand;
and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
-Matthew 13:13-14

We also call this comprehension. When My oldest daughter was having difficulty in math at school we took her to a learning center for evaluation. They determined that she needed training in comprehension. This kinda floored me. I thought her problem was math. But they explained that she actually was quite capable of doing the math, she just wasn’t comprehending the instructions. She would read them, but she wouldn’t really understand them.

We have to accept that not every one that hears the Word understands it. And if they do not understand it, then they cannot believe it. Therefore not everyone that hears the Word receives faith.

2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
-Hebrews 4:4

Not everyone that hears the Word believes it. Some do, and some don’t.

So we could read Romans 10:17 this way:

Faith comes by understanding (hearing) the Word in the heart, by way of absorbing sound (hearing) the Word in the ears.

Needless to say, the more you absorb sound of the Word in your ears, the more opportunity you have to understand the Word in the heart.

The problem is, we don’t have the capability within ourselves to understand God. The Bible says that His ways are higher than our ways, and His thoughts higher than our thoughts. It also says that eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither has entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for them that love Him.

God is the creator of everything we see, as well as the laws that govern them. He is the creator of time itself. He lives outside of time, and our little three dimensional view gives us no reference point to understand the mind of God. It is like a two dimensional drawing trying to understand a three dimensional cube. It cannot be done.

But of course, God knows this too. So He lent us a hand, and gave us a helper.

JimfromOhio

13th August 2008, 11:03 AM

Ears? What about those who are deaf? Its not the ears but rather the hearts.

If you are dead to sin (slave to sin), how can you "hear" the Holy Spirit unless your heart is willing to listen? Its the condition of the heart that determines a person salvation to hear and believe.

1 Thessalonians 1:5 "because our gospel came to you not simply with words (hearing the gospel), but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake."

Jesus in John 6:29 "The work of God is this: to believe in the one He has sent."

Jesus said again in John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

When a person is NOT hearing, this is when When a person do NOT acknowledge the Holy Spirit, that is explained in Mark 3:29 "But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." In Acts 7:51, "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!"

You have to keep in mind, this is spiritual respond, not flesh's effort. Ears are related to flesh while the hearts,(as well as minds and souls) are related to the spirit.

dkbwarrior

13th August 2008, 12:09 PM

Ears? What about those who are deaf? Its not the ears but rather the hearts.

You obviously didn't read my post very well. The use of the word ears and hear in the Bible is often representative of all the physical senses, not just the holes in the side of your head. I kinda figured that any one reading my post would understand that, but apparently not you. ;)

One can hear the Word by their sense of hearing through their ears (listening); and one can hear the Word by their sense of sight through their eyes (reading & sign language); or one can hear the Word through their sense of touch with their fingers (braille). I am sure that with enough time and effort one could even develop ways to communicate through taste and smell as well.

I am not sure how one could hear the Word if they had no senses whatsoever. I suppose it would have to be direct revelation from God that completely bypassed the physical senses, because without senses of some kind we cannot recieve communication from the natural physical world around us, nor can we send information out to the natural physical world around us.

But that is a different subject altogether and has nothing really to do with this thread. But feel free to start a thread of your own if you want to discuss it.

Peace...

JimfromOhio

13th August 2008, 12:39 PM

You obviously didn't read my post very well. The use of the word ears and hear in the Bible is often representative of all the physical senses, not just the holes in the side of your head. I kinda figured that any one reading my post would understand that, but apparently not you. ;)

One can hear the Word by their sense of hearing through their ears (listening); and one can hear the Word by their sense of sight through their eyes (reading & sign language); or one can hear the Word through their sense of touch with their fingers (braille). I am sure that with enough time and effort one could even develop ways to communicate through taste and smell as well.

I am not sure how one could hear the Word if they had no senses whatsoever. I suppose it would have to be direct revelation from God that completely bypassed the physical senses, because without senses of some kind we cannot recieve communication from the natural physical world around us, nor can we send information out to the natural physical world around us.

But that is a different subject altogether and has nothing really to do with this thread. But feel free to start a thread of your own if you want to discuss it.

Peace...

What you are talking about is communication between people and surely, people have heard the gospel through various forms of communications (which is commonly known as "other means")
Hearing - reading, ears
Deaf - sight including reading
Blind - ears
Deaf/Blind- feelings

What the Bible is referring to is that we are to hear the Holy Spirit in order to be saved through various communication means.

dkbwarrior

13th August 2008, 12:48 PM

What you are talking about is communication between people and surely, people have heard the gospel through various forms of communications (which is commonly known as "other means")
Hearing - reading, ears
Deaf - sight including reading
Blind - ears
Deaf/Blind- feelings

What the Bible is referring to is that we are to hear the Holy Spirit in order to be saved through various communication means.

Exactly! :clap:

Looks like you got it after all!

That is what my next installment is all about, how to hear the Spirit of God! :D

Peace...

JimfromOhio

13th August 2008, 12:55 PM

Exactly! :clap:

Looks like you got it after all!

That is what my next installment is all about, how to hear the Spirit of God! :D

Peace...

Is there works involved?

Hearing the Holy Spirit is when Christ come knocking on your heart... depending on your heart's condition, you may not hear the knocks since your heart is hardened by sin that it is ignoring the Holy Spirit conviction.

Other than that, there is no other way but through Jesus' knocking (conviction).

dkbwarrior

13th August 2008, 02:23 PM

I really don't know how you will perceive it. Do you perceive studying the Word and meditating on it as a work? Do you perceive faith as a work? Sometimes I think you are inferring that because faith is a gift, that we can just sit on our butts and never pray or read the bible or listen to a sermon and God will just dump faith on us because it is a gift.

But even gifts have to be opened. That requires a certain amount of work, minimal work to be sure, but work none the less. Faith is a gift, but it needs to be opened, and we open the gift by opening our Bibles, and praying for the Spirit to teach us. Of course, that will probably be called a 'work' by you.

Oh well, can't please all the people all the time. Truth is sometimes unpleasant.

Peace...

dkbwarrior

13th August 2008, 03:03 PM

Is there works involved?

Hearing the Holy Spirit is when Christ come knocking on your heart... depending on your heart's condition, you may not hear the knocks since your heart is hardened by sin that it is ignoring the Holy Spirit conviction.

Other than that, there is no other way but through Jesus' knocking (conviction).

Yes, and He knocks on everyones heart, does He not? But unless we can hear (understand), it does little good, does it?

Peace...

dkbwarrior

13th August 2008, 03:05 PM

REVELATION: THE KEYS OF THE KINGDOM

13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying,
Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art
the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not
revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church;
and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be
bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
-Matthew 16:13-19

Revelation regarding knowledge of Him are the keys of the kingdom of heaven. It is what gives us understanding. Revelation of who Jesus is becomes the rock upon which He builds His church.

So who is Jesus? When Jesus asked His disciples who men thought He was, Peter answered and said, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”.

The word Christ literally means anointed (ref. Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words), and refers to the Holy Spirit, and the fact that Jesus had the Spirit without measure (John 3:34).

We also know that the Son of God, (that is Jesus), is the Word of God made flesh:

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory
as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
-John 1:1-3, 14

Therefore, we can deduce that Christ Jesus was the Anointed Word made flesh. This is important, because without the Anointing, the Word doesn’t bring revelation

You see, the Word without revelation is nothing but ink and paper, or religious sounding words and phrases. Religious sounds don’t produce faith, and paper and ink do not produce faith. It is only Revelation by the Spirit of God to give one understanding of the Word that produces faith.

It is the Spirits job to reveal the Word to us; that is in fact why He was sent:

7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away:
for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you;
but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:
for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear,
that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine,
and shall shew it unto you.
15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine,
and shall shew it unto you.
-John 16:7, 13-15

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither
knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you
all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
-John 14:16-17, 26

In both of these passages Jesus referred to the Spirit as the Spirit of Truth. And Jesus also said, regarding truth:

17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
-John 17:17

So we see here that the same Spirit that was on Jesus, the same Spirit that gave Peter revelation of who Jesus was, that same Spirit was to be sent to us from the Father in Jesus name to teach us all things, that is, to give us revelation of the Word of God.

I would note here that the term all things in both of the above passages is an idiom. It is a phrase that means something more than its literal component parts. The term all things refers to the things of God, specifically the Words or Promises of God.

Look at the following passage of scripture:

9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man,
the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit
searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so
the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God;
that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
-1 Corinthians 2:7-12

The promises of God are revealed to us by the Spirit of God. It is the revelation of these promises that deposits faith in our hearts, because faith comes with understanding the Word.

This knowledge of Him is provided by revelation of the great and precious promises:

3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness,
through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be
partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the
corruption that is in the world through lust.
-2 Peter 1:3-4

So Peter tells us in vs. 3 that it is according to His divine power (Gr. dunamis=might, ie. the Spirit) that He has given (ie., revealed ) to us all things (the Word and Promises of God) through the knowledge of Him. Peter goes on to reiterate in vs. 4 that the knowledge of Him is the means whereby we are given (ie., revealed ) these great and precious promises, (ie., all things, the things of God). And it is by these revelations of the exceeding great and precious promises of God that we become partakers of the divine nature.

Thus we partake of the divine nature. When the Words of Promise are revealed to our understanding by the Spirit of God it plants Gods living Word in our heart. Of course, we know that the Word is God. Not the written Word, the ink and the paper; but the revealed Word, written in our heart, which is Christ Jesus, the Anointed Word, the image and likeness of God.

Peace...