Faith As A Grain Of Mustard Seed... [Archive]

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dkbwarrior

26th July 2008, 09:48 AM

FAITH AS A GRAIN OF MUSTARD SEED

20And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
-Matthew 17:20

I have often heard poeple say, "Jesus said that if you had 'faith the size of a mustard seed', you could move a mountain, so why don't you prove it then, and move a mountain for all of us to see?

A DEVILISH QUESTION

There are a couple of problems with this question. The first is the fact that this tactic has been used before, and it was a devilish question:

5Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
-Matthew 4:5-7

The assumption here of course, was that a Son of God would believe the promises of God.

Jesus answered by saying that it wasn't an issue of believing God, but tempting Him. Doing something to prove ones status wasn't anything other than tempting God.

AS: IN SIZE OR IN NATURE

The second is that this isn't what Jesus said at all. Jesus didn't say, 'faith the size of a mustard seed'; He said faith as a mustard seed.

This could mean many things, size, shape, potential, ability, color, etc. We have to do what any good Bible student does, and see how Jesus used it elsewhere, to determine what He meant. Comparing spiritual things with spiritual, as Paul said, that is, comparing scripture with scripture.

31It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:
32But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.
Mark 4:31-32

We see here that what impressed Jesus about the mustard seed wasn't so much its size, but rather its growth potential in relation to its size.

In other words, He was saying, "If you have faith that grows like a mustard seed, then you could say unto this mountain...".

So the next question would be, how does a mustard seed grow?

5And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
6And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
7But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
8And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
-Luke 17:5-8

Here, when the disciples ask Jesus to increase their faith, He tells them that if they have faith that grows like a mustard seed, it will act like a servant that does not sit down or rest until he has accomplished his lords will. It stays strong and consistent without wavering.

Which is why Paul tells us:

23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)
-Hebrews 10:23

And James says:

6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
-James 1:6-7

Why do we have to hold fast to our confession without wavering? Because it takes time for a seed to grow:

26And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
27And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.
28For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.
-Mark 4:26-28

If you waver, or doubt in your heart, between the believing and the having, you quit watering the seed, and it will die. Then you will not be reaping a harvest, I gaurantee you.

For this reason we must have patience:

35Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
-Hebrews 10:35-36

12That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
13For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
-Hebrews 6:12-15

Abraham waited 25 years for his promised son. But it came. Because he was strong in faith, and staggered not, (did not waver), at the promise of God.

19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
-Romans 4:29-21

CONCLUSION

The parable about faith as a grain of mustard seed is not trying to teach us that just an itsy bitsy teeny weeny yellow pokadot of faith can move a mountain.

The parable of faith as a grain of mustard seed is attempting to teach us that faith which starts small, when put to work on a circumstance, will grow over time to accomplish what it is that you prayed for. But only if you keep it applied without wavering, (without doubting), and hold fast to your confession, for He is faithful that promised, and wait patiently for the outcome.

We can be assured that when we do so, we will have what we prayed for.

Peace...

charityagape

26th July 2008, 03:17 PM

I'm sure you'll have plenty of opposing posts, but this REALLY helped me to better understand some things about faith.

JimfromOhio

26th July 2008, 03:20 PM

I thank God that gives me faith on my behalf which is through GRACE. I want certain people to know about it because they CAN have the faith to activate the power of God through God's GRACE. In one of Christ's parables (Matthew 13), Jesus is emphasizing that there is no connection between the smallness of a seed and the largeness of the end result. The small mustard seed can become a very large bush with grace. Through the mustard seed and God's grace, it is the Holy Spirit's conviction that God’s design for me is to be radically TRANSFORMED by the renewing of my mind (Romans 12:2) allowing me to grown from within and it is my hope for this radical transformation is by the POWER of the Holy Spirit in His grace (Romans 15:13) and not through my own efforts.

charityagape

26th July 2008, 03:21 PM

TRANSFORMED by the renewing of my mind (Romans 12:2) allowing me to grown from within and it is my hope for this radical transformation is by the POWER of the Holy Spirit in His grace (Romans 15:13) and not through my own efforts.

How is your mind transformed? How is it renewed?

JimfromOhio

26th July 2008, 03:41 PM

How is your mind transformed? How is it renewed?
In Ephesians 4:23, the Greek word translated "renewed" (ananeoo) is used which means "to create again" or "make new." According to His grace, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit that being justified by His grace I might be made heir according to the hope of eternal life. In Ephesians 4:23 says, "Be renewed in the spirit of your mind" which means I am not to think the way I did before I knew Christ. I am no longer controlled by a self-centered mind but rather I learn from Christ through grace. The life I live is not mine but Christ living in me (Gal. 2:20). Like a baby is born with a fresh, new mind even though I live in an aging body, my spirit is being renewed daily.

In Ephesians 4:25 says
"Put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."

Instead of having a greedy and unclean mind, we have a mind filled with righteousness and holiness which is why I am against any doctrines that focus on self more than God. Due to this sinful world, I am still living in a sinful body that is still decaying. Through God's grace and Jesus Christ, I have eternal life in my possession, even though my body is dying because of sin."My temorary body is decaying at the same time, my inner being is being renewed day by day" (2 Cor 4:16).

I have strong faith because I know the Holy Spirit is working within me through God's grace. :thumbsup:

charityagape

26th July 2008, 03:45 PM

In Ephesians 4:23, the Greek word translated "renewed" (ananeoo) is used which means "to create again" or "make new." According to His grace, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit that being justified by His grace I might be made heir according to the hope of eternal life. In Ephesians 4:23 says, "Be renewed in the spirit of your mind" which means I am not to think the way I did before I knew Christ. I am no longer controlled by a self-centered mind but rather I learn from Christ through grace. The life I live is not mine but Christ living in me (Gal. 2:20). Like a baby is born with a fresh, new mind even though I live in an aging body, my spirit is being renewed daily.

In Ephesians 4:25 says
"Put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."

Instead of having a greedy and unclean mind, we have a mind filled with righteousness and holiness which is why I am against any doctrines that focus on self more than God. Due to this sinful world, I am still living in a sinful body that is still decaying. Through God's grace and Jesus Christ, I have eternal life in my possession, even though my body is dying because of sin."My temorary body is decaying at the same time, my inner being is being renewed day by day" (2 Cor 4:16).

I have strong faith because I know the Holy Spirit is working within me through God's grace. :thumbsup:

Does this require any effort on your part?

JimfromOhio

26th July 2008, 04:02 PM

Does this require any effort on your part?
Flesh's effort or spirit's effort?

My effort is spiritual. In God's Grace that I have great spiritual and eternal freedom to grow. Spiritual training which is forming spiritual fruits. In 2 Peter 1:5-9: make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

I have learned to understand that while God wants me to be Spirit-filled that God's desire that I should reflect His own holiness and goodness (not my own flesh's efforts). Holiness is the balance between my nature and the law of God as expressed in Jesus Christ within me. True "sanctification" is only through the Holy Spirit who produce the evidence of my own true spiritual condition, humility and intimacy with God that my flesh CANNOT DO.

charityagape

26th July 2008, 04:27 PM

Flesh's effort or spirit's effort?

My effort is spiritual. In God's Grace that I have great spiritual and eternal freedom to grow. Spiritual training which is forming spiritual fruits. In 2 Peter 1:5-9: make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

I have learned to understand that while God wants me to be Spirit-filled that God's desire that I should reflect His own holiness and goodness (not my own flesh's efforts). Holiness is the balance between my nature and the law of God as expressed in Jesus Christ within me. True "sanctification" is only through the Holy Spirit who produce the evidence of my own true spiritual condition, humility and intimacy with God that my flesh CANNOT DO.

So what does your spiritual effort entail?

JimfromOhio

26th July 2008, 04:56 PM

So what does your spiritual effort entail?
My own effort is connected with the flesh, while spiritual effort is connected with the Spirit. Studying Galatians helped alot. The Galatian's sin was believing that what is begun in the Spirit can be perfected in the flesh. Their problem was their fallen flesh and they didn't realized that only the Holy Spirit can harness it. In Galatians 5:16 says "Walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh." As Christians we possess the indwelling Spirit (Rom. 8:9). In fact our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:19). As the Spirit moves and leads, we are to respond moment by moment, step by step, and day by day, relying on His power and direction by faith through His grace. I am reminded of Paul who wrote: "I die daily" (1 Cor. 15:31) which means every day I am to die to self and walk in the Spirit. Jesus said in John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. Christian faith is inward, not outward because we are in the spirit and not in the flesh.

I don't have anything to spell the "entail" of my spiritual effort except grace. God uses suffering to perfect His "Power is perfected (grace) in weakness". Grace of heart is a gift from God and this has nothing to do with the thorns because God is changing me internally so that He to lift me above my present thorns and He will lead me into His will.

Remember, our own faith is NOTHING without GRACE. Grace is the source of our strong faith. Flesh Faith produces fear to motivate them to do 'works" (or unbelief) while Spirit produces faith. Is my faith being lead by my own flesh's efforts? Or, is my faith being lead by the Holy Spirit?

I do have some spiritual habits such as reading the scriptures, studying, praying, witnessing and many other spiritual activities. I am careful not to be legalistic as Paul as a Pharisee knew that much of Pharisees' routines were merely legalistic as in physical, superficial, and temporal from flesh's efforts.

dkbwarrior

27th July 2008, 10:11 PM

I'm sure you'll have plenty of opposing posts, but this REALLY helped me to better understand some things about faith.

Thank you.

Peace...

dkbwarrior

4th August 2008, 07:47 PM

The parable about faith as a grain of mustard seed is not trying to teach us that just an itsy bitsy teeny weeny yellow pokadot of faith can move a mountain.

The parable of faith as a grain of mustard seed is attempting to teach us that faith which starts small, when put to work on a circumstance, will grow over time to accomplish what it is that you prayed for. But only if you keep it applied without wavering, (without doubting), and hold fast to your confession, for He is faithful that promised, and wait patiently for the outcome.

We can be assured that when we do so, we will have what we prayed for.

There is certainly the measure of faith that is given to every believer:

3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
-Romans 12:3

But that measure of faith can grow:

3We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
-2 Thessalonians 1:3

If we live by faith:

17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
-Romans 1:17

Because that is the only way to please God:

6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
-Hebrews 11:6

Peace...

CindyisHis

4th August 2008, 08:01 PM

JimfromOhio

4th August 2008, 08:18 PM

The issue is not the soil; rather, it is the condition of the soil. That means that all people could receive the seed. All soil could receive the seed if it was broken up and cleaned of weeds. So, the key to the parable is that the response a person having grace depends upon the condition of that person's heart. In one of Christ's parables, Jesus is emphasizing that there is no connection between the smallness of a seed and the largeness of the end result. The small mustard seed can become a very large bush with grace. Through the mustard seed is God's grace which produces power of our faith. Our hearts are like a garden and must be kept free from weeds and insects.

When responding to circumstances by faith without hinderances. We have to expect the fruits and flowers bloom in an untended heart is to misunderstand completely the processes of Grace and God's will. We need to understand what God desires, not what man desires. Some stumble in faith because they rely on their own works rather than the Holy Spirit. FAITH is simple but people make it so difficult in order to make "faith" more than it is. People have made the word "Faith" more complicated than it should be.

There is more to life than that. There is also the realm of the spirit, the invisible spiritual kingdom of God. Biblical faith is this: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1-2).

GrapeGirl

4th August 2008, 11:57 PM

That is, indeed, very interesting. I thought that Luke 17:5-8 was rather a scolding of the disciples for their lack of servant nature. Any thoughts on that DKB?

GrapeGirl

4th August 2008, 11:57 PM

That is, indeed, very interesting. I thought that Luke 17:5-8 was rather a scolding of the disciples for their lack of servant nature. Any thoughts on that DKB?

dkbwarrior

5th August 2008, 06:00 AM

That is, indeed, very interesting. I thought that Luke 17:5-8 was rather a scolding of the disciples for their lack of servant nature. Any thoughts on that DKB?

I think that you may be right about that also. Jesus often used a situation or an event to teach on more than one thing.

In this situation, after instructing them how faith should be treated like a servant, He ended the parable with this:

9Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
10So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
-Luke 17:9-10

Peace...

Jimbeaux

5th August 2008, 06:46 AM

I have often heard poeple say, "Jesus said that if you had 'faith the size of a mustard seed', you could move a mountain, so why don't you prove it then, and move a mountain for all of us to see?

*****

Then let me rephrase the question to make it less “devilish” (doesn that mean “uncomfortable”):

If it is as simplistic as you want to make it, then why doesn’t it work like you claim it is supposed to?

That’s an honest question that many people ask and one that deserves an honest response.

Christianity may be simple, DK, but it is not simplistic.

~Jim

The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.

JimfromOhio

5th August 2008, 12:42 PM

Then let me rephrase the question to make it less “devilish” (doesn that mean “uncomfortable”):

If it is as simplistic as you want to make it, then why doesn’t it work like you claim it is supposed to?

That’s an honest question that many people ask and one that deserves an honest response.

Christianity may be simple, DK, but it is not simplistic.

~Jim

The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.

:thumbsup:

IchoozJC

5th August 2008, 01:52 PM

Good post, DKB :thumbsup: I've been one of those who has quoted it as "faith the size of a mustard seed" without even realizing it.

And I understood the "devilish" analogy. It was pretty simple :)

dkbwarrior

5th August 2008, 02:10 PM

Then let me rephrase the question to make it less “devilish” (doesn that mean “uncomfortable”):

If it is as simplistic as you want to make it, then why doesn’t it work like you claim it is supposed to?

That’s an honest question that many people ask and one that deserves an honest response.

I have yet to see it fail to work. You would have to provide some evidence that it did not work first, in order to make such a contention.

It has never yet failed in my life, and though I have had people tell me that it failed for them, when pressed, they have yet to confirm that they met the criteria.

Peace...

churchlady

5th August 2008, 03:35 PM

I knew when I clicked on the OP, to read it, my faith would be greatly strengthened.

You never disappoint me Dkbwarrior. Thanks. I'm printing this one.

Jimbeaux

5th August 2008, 03:52 PM

I have yet to see it fail to work. You would have to provide some evidence that it did not work first, in order to make such a contention.

It has never yet failed in my life, and though I have had people tell me that it failed for them, when pressed, they have yet to confirm that they met the criteria.

Peace...

Gosh, I can’t prove a negative, DK. Nobody can. But if you say you can move a literal mountain and cast it into a literal sea just by speaking to it, I suppose you can do it if you say so. But the next time you do it, would you mind giving us a heads up so we can witness it ourselves and won’t doubt you the next time. Honestly, I must have missed all those other times WOF’ers have cast mountains into the sea. Guess I wasn’t paying attention. Sorry.

~Jim
The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.

dkbwarrior

5th August 2008, 04:45 PM

Gosh, I can’t prove a negative, DK. Nobody can. But if you say you can move a literal mountain and cast it into a literal sea just by speaking to it, I suppose you can do it if you say so. But the next time you do it, would you mind giving us a heads up so we can witness it ourselves and won’t doubt you the next time. Honestly, I must have missed all those other times WOF’ers have cast mountains into the sea. Guess I wasn’t paying attention. Sorry.

S'all right bro'. You're forgiven. ;)

I would clarify that speaking to a mountain don't make it move.

Only speaking to a mountain and not doubting in your heart but believing that what you say will come to pass will move a mountain.

I don't know about you but I can't even speak to a cold all the time and believe it will obey me without dobting, let alone a mountain. And that is the make it or break it point, isn't it?

Lord I believe, please help my unbelief!

Peace...

Jimbeaux

5th August 2008, 05:32 PM

S'all right bro'. You're forgiven. ;)

I would clarify that speaking to a mountain don't make it move.

Only speaking to a mountain and not doubting in your heart but believing that what you say will come to pass will move a mountain.

I don't know about you but I can't even speak to a cold all the time and believe it will obey me without dobting, let alone a mountain. And that is the make it or break it point, isn't it?

Lord I believe, please help my unbelief!

Peace...

Even though I may not agree theologically with this, I do love your honesty, DK. :thumbsup:

~Jim
The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.

charityagape

6th August 2008, 03:59 AM