When is God's healing power released?

[GreatistheLord]

Hi,

I wanted to explore an idea that when Jesus destroyed the power of sin and death, and took the curse on himself on the cross, that the power of forgiveness, salvation and healing was released ,then and for always, for everyone who would believe for the rest of history.

When someone believes for salvation, they accept what has already been given. The transaction from heaven that is made at that time is God giving them faith for salvation. They receive salvation.

When someone believes for healing, they accept the healing power that has already been given by Jesus. We can still debate where the faith comes from, but I am saying that the power for ALL healing was released 2000 years ago, and that faith between us and God makes that power available to us who believe.

Isaiah 53 ......By His stripes we were healed....
James 5:15 The prayer of faith will heal the sick.

This is in contrast to saying God's power is released whenever it's His will at that time.

Let's keep this civil.

[LeadWorship]

.

[LeadWorship]

Excellent topic!

[JimfromOhio]

If you are talking about eternal salvation, God's promise is eternal because Christ is the mediator of the covenant, that we receive the promised eternal inheritance. Paul wrote, "For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come" (1Tim 4:8).

When the Bible says, "...with His stripes we are healed," it is not referring specifically to physical healing, but to the spiritual healing of the disease of sin. However, when sin is healed, sickness CAN BE indirectly healed as well, because sickness is a result of sin. First Peter 2:24 reinforces the fact that the cross was designed primarily to heal sin: "Who His own self bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness; by whose stripes ye were healed."

Going back to Matthew, he explains the fact that Isaiah 53:4 extends from the sin problem to sickness which means there's healing and wholeness in the atonement, but only as it comes to us in the fullness of salvation, when our bodies decayed, died and are glorified in His eternal Kingdom.

One day, He will take away all our sicknesses away, but the healing that took place during His earthly ministry was only a small anticipatory sample of that which was spoken by the prophet Isaiah of what will happen.

Sacrifices for Sin (Atonement)

Peter 4:1 (NIV) Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin.

Isaiah 53 is not about physical healing but people are using the chapter is part of physical healing more than spiritual healing (salvation).

Isaiah 53:5
NIV: But he was pierced for our transgressions,he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,and by his wounds we are healed.
KJV: But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

In the Old Testament Leviticus 9:7 Moses said to Aaron, "Come to the altar and sacrifice your sin offering and your burnt offering and make atonement for yourself and the people; sacrifice the offering that is for the people and make atonement for them, as the LORD has commanded."

Hebrews 5 explains that "Every high priest is selected from among men and is appointed to represent them in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins" that in Hebrews 7 explains that Jesus is the "high priest meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens.

In NIV, 2 words were used as:
1. pierced (wounded in KJV) for our transgressions (KJV is the same)
2. crushed (bruised in KJV) for our iniquities (KJV is the same).

Transgression means violation of God's law. Iniquity means depth of sin, lawlessness.

Source of iniquity is the heart (see Matt. 23:28, Ps 41:6).

The bottom line is: SIN as in eternal death. Christ through His blood gave us eternal LIFE.

Animal sacrifices were to cover their sins while Christ's sacrifice to purifies our sins.

Exodus 29:36 "Sacrifice a bull each day as a sin offering to make atonement. Purify the altar by making atonement for it, and anoint it to consecrate it."

Leviticus 9:7 "Moses said to Aaron, "Come to the altar and sacrifice your sin offering and your burnt offering and make atonement for yourself and the people; sacrifice the offering that is for the people and make atonement for them, as the LORD has commanded."

Hebrews 9:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

[JimfromOhio]

In relations to James 5

There are many who are born with illness or fell into illness in early live. There are others who got sick directly from sin as whether or not the a Christian understood how his/her sickness was related to his/her sin, as in the case of James 5:14-15, a Christian would and should know that there was sin in his/her life that needed to be dealt with. James explained in detailed instructions for those who are sick (astheneo) which is a word is often used in the New Testament of those who are spiritually weak or immature (Rom. 14:1,2; 1 Cor. 8:11,12).

[GreatistheLord]

If you are talking about eternal salvation, God's promise is eternal because Christ is the mediator of the covenant, that we receive the promised eternal inheritance. Paul wrote, "For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come" (1Tim 4:8).

When the Bible says, "...with His stripes we are healed," it is not referring specifically to physical healing, but to the spiritual healing of the disease of sin. However, when sin is healed, sickness CAN BE indirectly healed as well, because sickness is a result of sin. First Peter 2:24 reinforces the fact that the cross was designed primarily to heal sin: "Who His own self bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness; by whose stripes ye were healed."

Yes, I agree. But sickness came through the curse which was *completely* dealt with on the cross.

Going back to Matthew, he explains the fact that Isaiah 53:4 extends from the sin problem to sickness which means there's healing and wholeness in the atonement, but only as it comes to us in the fullness of salvation, when our bodies decayed, died and are glorified in His eternal Kingdom.


No, our salvation was paid in full, and is complete. Jesus isn't going to come back to finish the job. We are seated with Christ in the heavenly places, and have been given everything we need for life and Godliness. Those promises are meant for today.

We *cannot* be joined with Christ if we have not been fully perfected in our spirits.

[Tamara224]

Isaiah 53 ......By His stripes we were healed....
James 5:15 The prayer of faith will heal the sick.

This is in contrast to saying God's power is released whenever it's His will at that time.

Let's keep this civil.

Let me premise this with saying that Isaiah 53:5 is talking about spiritual restoration, not physical healing. But that's a debate for another thread.

For the sake of this thread, it appears to me that you're basing your supposition about the power having been released 2000 years ago on the past tense "by His stripes we were healed."

Let's look at some different translations:

KJV
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

NIV
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

NASB

5But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.

Amplified
5But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our guilt and iniquities; the chastisement [needful to obtain] peace and well-being for us was upon Him, and with the stripes [that wounded] Him we are healed and made whole.

ESV
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his stripes we are healed.


NKJV
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.


So... what version did you quote to come up with the past tense?


Got any other Scripture to back up your thesis? I don't personally know of any Scripture that says God relinquished control of His own power 2000 years ago.

Besides that... if it has already been "released" then where's it hanging out right now? Is the power just floating around in the void waiting for us to use the right incantation to open a conduit or something?


Besides which... this whole construct assumes that God is bound by time the same way we are.

[GreatistheLord]

Hi Jim,

Please tell me what you think.....
When was the full Healing power of Christ released ?

[GreatistheLord]

Let me premise this with saying that Isaiah 53:5 is talking about spiritual restoration, not physical healing. But that's a debate for another thread.

For the sake of this thread, it appears to me that you're basing your supposition about the power having been released 2000 years ago on the past tense "by His stripes we were healed."

Let's look at some different translations:

KJV
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

NIV
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

NASB

5But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.

Amplified
5But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our guilt and iniquities; the chastisement [needful to obtain] peace and well-being for us was upon Him, and with the stripes [that wounded] Him we are healed and made whole.

ESV
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his stripes we are healed.


NKJV
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.


So... what version did you quote to come up with the past tense?


Got any other Scripture to back up your thesis? I don't personally know of any Scripture that says God relinquished control of His own power 2000 years ago.

Besides that... if it has already been "released" then where's it hanging out right now? Is the power just floating around in the void waiting for us to use the right incantation to open a conduit or something?


Besides which... this whole construct assumes that God is bound by time the same way we are.

Quite simple, this scripture was written in the past. It was written before the incarnation of Christ. The healing that the prophet Isaiah talks about was spoken as a present reality, not even a future reality. Get your head round that.

Let's not forget, time is not something that limits God. Christs atonement could be said to be at work before He was on Earth. God sees the end from the beginning.

[Tamara224]

Jesus isn't going to come back to finish the job.


He's not? :scratch:

Scripture says otherwise:

Romans 8:22-25

22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:50-58
50Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
55"O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?"
56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
57but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.


Scripture is clear. Our bodies have not yet been redeemed. Our hope is in the knowledge that Christ is coming back to finish the job. When He comes back, we'll all be given spiritual, incorruptable bodies. For now, we continue to groan with the rest of creation - suffering the effects of corruption.

[Tamara224]

Quite simple, this scripture was written in the past. It was written before the incarnation of Christ. The healing that the prophet Isaiah talks about was spoken as a present reality, not even a future reality. Get your head round that.

So, essentially, the verb tense doesn't really tell us anything about the timeline. In fact, most of that passage is in the past tense, even though it would be quite a while before the prophecy came to pass.

So, let's not hang our hats on the verb tense of one sentence.

Any other proof, then, from Scripture that God already "released" healing power 2000 years ago and doesn't do it on a case by case basis as and when needed?

Let's not forget, time is not something that limits God. Christs atonement could be said to be at work before He was on Earth. God sees the end from the beginning.

Right. I already said that. :wave:

[GreatistheLord]

Got any other Scripture to back up your thesis? I don't personally know of any Scripture that says God relinquished control of His own power 2000 years ago.

We are not assuming what is God's to give, but what the devil has taken when sin entered the world. Dominion was given in Genesis, this is not a new concept that God wants us to have some control on Earth.

Besides that... if it has already been "released" then where's it hanging out right now? Is the power just floating around in the void waiting for us to use the right incantation to open a conduit or something?

Maybe it's easier to view it as authority that has been given to the church over the dominion of the devil and his works.

Besides which... this whole construct assumes that God is bound by time the same way we are.




I dont follow you.

[GreatistheLord]

So, essentially, the verb tense doesn't really tell us anything about the timeline. In fact, most of that passage is in the past tense, even though it would be quite a while before the prophecy came to pass.

So, let's not hang our hats on the verb tense of one sentence.

Any other proof, then, from Scripture that God already "released" healing power 2000 years ago and doesn't do it on a case by case basis as and when needed?



Right. I already said that. :wave:

My arguement is that Christ restored what was taken away by the curse. His authority over sin and sickness was given to the church. This act was the final act of God in restoration in the spiritual realm. When Jesus said "It is finished", He was not being overdramatic.

[JimfromOhio]

No, our salvation was paid in full, and is complete. Jesus isn't going to come back to finish the job. We are seated with Christ in the heavenly places, and have been given everything we need for life and Godliness. Those promises are meant for today.

We *cannot* be joined with Christ if we have not been fully perfected in our spirits.

Our salvation is paid in full under God's grace through Jesus Christ. We will never be perfect in legalistic terms (as you are trying to point out). God doesn't require perfection. If He did, no one would be qualified to get into heaven because we all fail.

[JimfromOhio]

Hi Jim,

Please tell me what you think.....
When was the full Healing power of Christ released ?
Spiritually, immediately.

Physically, after death as we go onto eternal life.

[JimfromOhio]

My arguement is that Christ restored what was taken away by the curse. His authority over sin and sickness was given to the church. This act was the final act of God in restoration in the spiritual realm. When Jesus said "It is finished", He was not being overdramatic.
If God took away our curse (sin), we would NOT die or even get sick today. What part of this you don't understand?

It is finished. When we are convicted by the Holy Spirit to be saved, by His GRACE, we are able to have "self-control" over sinful nature and worldly pleasures . Contentment is enthusiasm with no worldly cause. Contentment is excitement in the midst of illness, compassion over the needs of someone who is worse off than you, joy in the midst of pain.

[Tamara224]

Got any other Scripture to back up your thesis? I don't personally know of any Scripture that says God relinquished control of His own power 2000 years ago.

We are not assuming what is God's to give, but what the devil has taken when sin entered the world. Dominion was given in Genesis, this is not a new concept that God wants us to have some control on Earth.



Oh, so you're saying that Satan had control of God's power until Jesus came to earth?

Uh... No. That's not even close to what Scripture teaches us.

Daniel 4:34-35
For His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
And His kingdom endures from generation to generation.
"All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
But He does according to His will in the host of heaven
And among the inhabitants of earth;
And no one can ward off His hand
Or say to Him, 'What have You done?'

There is no Scripture that I'm aware of that ever says God gave His control to Satan or that Satan somehow took it from Him. But feel free to provide a Scripture reference if you know of one.

The "dominion" that God gave to mankind is, basically, "take care of this". It's a stewardship - but God never relinquished ultimate control. Which is why we see that He is able to part seas and rivers and make the sun stand still. If He had given up His control, then He wouldn't have been able to do that stuff.

Besides that... if it has already been "released" then where's it hanging out right now? Is the power just floating around in the void waiting for us to use the right incantation to open a conduit or something?

Maybe it's easier to view it as authority that has been given to the church over the dominion of the devil and his works.



:D "easier".

So, is it your contention then that the devil is blocking the flow of power from God to man or something?

Besides which... this whole construct assumes that God is bound by time the same way we are.


I dont follow you.


Well, God isn't bound by time. To someone who isn't bound by time it's silly to say that he "released His power" 2000 years ago. 2000 years ago is meaningless to God. It's the same as two days ago. Or 2 million years ago. It doesn't make any difference to Him whether it was released 2000 years ago or right now.

This "God released his power 2000 years ago" only serves to take God out of the picture. If it's true, then we don't rely on God to do anything. All we do is figure out the right incantantion to "receive" the power that is already floating around out there.

In essence, then, it is people trying to claim control of God's power. God no longer has any immediate say in the matter. Which is not the least bit Biblical.

[GreatistheLord]

If God took away our curse (sin), we would NOT die or even get sick today. What part of this you don't understand?

It is finished. When we are convicted by the Holy Spirit to be saved, by His GRACE, we are able to have "self-control" over sinful nature and worldly pleasures . Contentment is enthusiasm with no worldly cause. Contentment is excitement in the midst of illness, compassion over the needs of someone who is worse off than you, joy in the midst of pain.

Chill out. If you've read my posts, you will know why I think sickness is still prevelant. The kingdom suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.

God still has His timing, but His will was determined for the curse, the works of the devil, our sin, His son, 2000 years ago.

[Tamara224]

My arguement is that Christ restored what was taken away by the curse.

What is that? God's power? God's control?

Please provide Scripture to back up your claims.

His authority over sin and sickness was given to the church.

Scripture reference, please.

This act was the final act of God in restoration in the spiritual realm. When Jesus said "It is finished", He was not being overdramatic.

When Jesus said "It is finished"... what "it" was He referring to?

I contend that "it" was His suffering. That's the only thing that makes sense in context. Jesus wasn't being overdramatic at all... but many people commit some serious eisegesis by defining "it" as "everything".

We know from other Scripture, specifically Romans 8, that our bodies are not yet redeemed. So it is inconsistent to claim that the entire redemption was finished at the moment that Jesus said "it is finished."

Not to mention the fact that Jesus resurrection was just as important as His death. And when He said "it is finished" He had not yet even died, much less rose again.

[JimfromOhio]

Chill out. If you've read my posts, you will know why I think sickness is still prevelant. The kingdom suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.

God still has His timing, but His will was determined for the curse, the works of the devil, our sin, His son, 2000 years ago.

Reality 2,000 years later, earth has not changed. However, spiritually, eternally Jesus has destroyed the curse so that we can have eternal life.

That's the reality.

[JimfromOhio]

What is that? God's power? God's control?

Please provide Scripture to back up your claims.



Scripture reference, please.



When Jesus said "It is finished"... what "it" was He referring to?

I contend that "it" was His suffering. That's the only thing that makes sense in context. Jesus wasn't being overdramatic at all... but many people commit some serious eisegesis by defining "it" as "everything".

We know from other Scripture, specifically Romans 8, that our bodies are not yet redeemed. So it is inconsistent to claim that the entire redemption was finished at the moment that Jesus said "it is finished."

Not to mention the fact that Jesus resurrection was just as important as His death. And when He said "it is finished" He had not yet even died, much less rose again.
:thumbsup:

[GreatistheLord]

[/color]

[/indent]Oh, so you're saying that Satan had control of God's power until Jesus came to earth?

Would you like to quote me on that?


Uh... No. That's not even close to what Scripture teaches us.

Daniel 4:34-35
For His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
And His kingdom endures from generation to generation.
"All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
But He does according to His will in the host of heaven
And among the inhabitants of earth;
And no one can ward off His hand
Or say to Him, 'What have You done?'

There is no Scripture that I'm aware of that ever says God gave His control to Satan or that Satan somehow took it from Him. But feel free to provide a Scripture reference if you know of one.

The "dominion" that God gave to mankind is, basically, "take care of this". It's a stewardship - but God never relinquished ultimate control. Which is why we see that He is able to part seas and rivers and make the sun stand still. If He had given up His control, then He wouldn't have been able to do that stuff.

The devil is a thief.

:D "easier".

So, is it your contention then that the devil is blocking the flow of power from God to man or something?[indent]


[COLOR=red]No, the devil was stripped of his power 2000 years ago to those who believe in Christ, and live in the resurrection power. That does not stop the devil from causing havoc on this planet. It does not stop him from spiritual, mental and physical attack on the believer, even when he has no right. Our job is to take authority over the devil and his works.


Well, God isn't bound by time. To someone who isn't bound by time it's silly to say that he "released His power" 2000 years ago. 2000 years ago is meaningless to God. It's the same as two days ago. Or 2 million years ago. It doesn't make any difference to Him whether it was released 2000 years ago or right now.

Jesus died 2000 years ago, that is when it happened. What is your point?

This "God released his power 2000 years ago" only serves to take God out of the picture. If it's true, then we don't rely on God to do anything. All we do is figure out the right incantantion to "receive" the power that is already floating around out there.

I'm not saying that we don't need God, but as far as the curse goes, it is finished. God's will is that we be restored to His perfect will as in heaven.

In essence, then, it is people trying to claim control of God's power. God no longer has any immediate say in the matter. Which is not the least bit Biblical.

You tell Him that.

[GreatistheLord]

What is that? God's power? God's control?

Please provide Scripture to back up your claims.



Scripture reference, please.



When Jesus said "It is finished"... what "it" was He referring to?

I contend that "it" was His suffering. That's the only thing that makes sense in context. Jesus wasn't being overdramatic at all... but many people commit some serious eisegesis by defining "it" as "everything".

We know from other Scripture, specifically Romans 8, that our bodies are not yet redeemed. So it is inconsistent to claim that the entire redemption was finished at the moment that Jesus said "it is finished."

Not to mention the fact that Jesus resurrection was just as important as His death. And when He said "it is finished" He had not yet even died, much less rose again.


I'm not going to spell out everything. This thread is about when and not what.

[Jimbeaux]

Hi,

I wanted to explore an idea that when Jesus destroyed the power of sin and death, and took the curse on himself on the cross, that the power of forgiveness, salvation and healing was released ,then and for always, for everyone who would believe for the rest of history.

When someone believes for salvation, they accept what has already been given. The transaction from heaven that is made at that time is God giving them faith for salvation. They receive salvation.

When someone believes for healing, they accept the healing power that has already been given by Jesus. We can still debate where the faith comes from, but I am saying that the power for ALL healing was released 2000 years ago, and that faith between us and God makes that power available to us who believe.

Isaiah 53 ......By His stripes we were healed....
James 5:15 The prayer of faith will heal the sick.

This is in contrast to saying God's power is released whenever it's His will at that time.

Let's keep this civil.

Um, Isaiah 53.5 is not talking about physical healing, it’s talking about healing of the soul/spirit, as Peter’s commentary on the verse shows.
21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:
22 “ Who committed no sin,
Nor was deceit found in His mouth”;
23 who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed. 25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. (1 Peter 2)
If you can read physical healing in that you have better eyes than the rest of us.


And James 5.15 does not say that the prayer of faith will always heal the sick every time you pray, just that the prayer of faith has the ability to heal the sick, i.e., will heal the sick. Of course, if it were not a prayer that was “according to His will” would even be a prayer of faith? If James 5.15 were fool-proof then every fool that obeys the scripture would be healed. Only they aren't. Some of them even die after they are prayed for. Explain that?

~Jim

The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.

[probinson]

And James 5.15 does not say that the prayer of faith will always heal the sick every time you pray, just that the prayer of faith has the ability to heal the sick, i.e., will heal the sick.
Actually, It says this;
James 5:14-15 (AMP)
14 Is anyone among you sick? He should call in the church elders (the spiritual guides). And they should pray over him, anointing him with oil in the Lord's name. 15 And the prayer [that is] of faith will save him who is sick, and the Lord will restore him; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

[GreatistheLord]

Um, Isaiah 53.5 is not talking about physical healing, it’s talking about healing of the soul/spirit, as Peter’s commentary on the verse shows.
21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:
22 “ Who committed no sin,
Nor was deceit found in His mouth”;
23 who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed. 25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. (1 Peter 2)
If you can read physical healing in that you have better eyes than the rest of us.

Yes.

And James 5.15 does not say that the prayer of faith will always heal the sick every time you pray, just that the prayer of faith has the ability to heal the sick, i.e., will heal the sick. Of course, if it were not a prayer that was “according to His will” would even be a prayer of faith? If James 5.15 were fool-proof then every fool that obeys the scripture would be healed. Only they aren't. Some of them even die after they are prayed for. Explain that?

Why do we even need the Bible when "reality" takes precedence.

~Jim


The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.


Let God's word stand.

[Tamara224]

Oh, so you're saying that Satan had control of God's power until Jesus came to earth?

Would you like to quote me on that?


You see this little squiggly thing: ? It's called a question mark.

I would like you to clarify what you are saying. Thus, I put a question mark at the end of it.

Uh... No. That's not even close to what Scripture teaches us.

Daniel 4:34-35
For His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
And His kingdom endures from generation to generation.
"All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
But He does according to His will in the host of heaven
And among the inhabitants of earth;
And no one can ward off His hand
Or say to Him, 'What have You done?'

There is no Scripture that I'm aware of that ever says God gave His control to Satan or that Satan somehow took it from Him. But feel free to provide a Scripture reference if you know of one.

The "dominion" that God gave to mankind is, basically, "take care of this". It's a stewardship - but God never relinquished ultimate control. Which is why we see that He is able to part seas and rivers and make the sun stand still. If He had given up His control, then He wouldn't have been able to do that stuff.
The devil is a thief.



And a liar too. But that doesn't prove that He stole anything from God.
:D "easier".
So, is it your contention then that the devil is blocking the flow of power from God to man or something?

No, the devil was stripped of his power 2000 years ago to those who believe in Christ, and live in the resurrection power. That does not stop the devil from causing havoc on this planet. It does not stop him from spiritual, mental and physical attack on the believer, even when he has no right. Our job is to take authority over the devil and his works.

But what does this have to do with God's healing power that you claim has been released already?

Please explain how you think the Devil is involved in that.

While you're at it... Please start providing Scriptural support for your claims. Until you do, I will assume that this is just man-made philosophizing and has no real basis in Scripture.
Well, God isn't bound by time. To someone who isn't bound by time it's silly to say that he "released His power" 2000 years ago. 2000 years ago is meaningless to God. It's the same as two days ago. Or 2 million years ago. It doesn't make any difference to Him whether it was released 2000 years ago or right now.

Jesus died 2000 years ago, that is when it happened. What is your point?


I made my point. Apparently, you can't refute it.

No one is arguing that Jesus died 2000 years ago. You claimed that God's healing power was released for all time at that time.

You have yet to prove that - or even come close to proving that - either through logic or through Scripture.

I still contend that it's silly to talk about God releasing His healing power once in one time period when God is eternal and not bound by time.

This "God released his power 2000 years ago" only serves to take God out of the picture. If it's true, then we don't rely on God to do anything. All we do is figure out the right incantantion to "receive" the power that is already floating around out there.

I'm not saying that we don't need God, but as far as the curse goes, it is finished. God's will is that we be restored to His perfect will as in heaven.


What is finished?

Don't forget the Scripture that tells us our bodies have yet to be redeemed.

]In essence, then, it is people trying to claim control of God's power. God no longer has any immediate say in the matter. Which is not the least bit Biblical.
You tell Him that.

:D I don't need to tell God that... He's the one that told all of us that.

Why don't you show me where God said otherwise?

[Tamara224]

I'm not going to spell out everything. This thread is about when and not what.


That's a cop out if I ever saw one.:wave:

[Jimbeaux]

Let God's word stand.

Exactly.

~Jim
The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.

[Jimbeaux]

Actually, It says this;
James 5:14-15 (AMP)
14 Is anyone among you sick? He should call in the church elders (the spiritual guides). And they should pray over him, anointing him with oil in the Lord's name. 15 And the prayer [that is] of faith will save him who is sick, and the Lord will restore him; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.



You are going to have to explain to me, if James 5.15 is failsafe and surety that we will be physicallyhealed when elders anoint us with oil and pray in faith over us, THEN WHY DOESN’T IT HAPPEN EVERY TIME like you claim it will?

Now here’s a thought, if the word sozo should be “saved” as it is in many translations (KJV, NKJV, AMP, ESV, HCS) and not “healed” (as in a few) then I can understand it. James 5.15 would make more sense in that context and I could accept it as a foolproof and failsafe guarantee.
13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms. 14 Is anyone among you sick (in spirit)? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save (sozo) the sick (in spirit), and the Lord will raise him up (or, restore him, as your preferred translation says). And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be saved (sozo). (James 5)
As a guaranteed promise that sure makes more sense.
~Jim

The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.

[GreatistheLord]

That's a cop out if I ever saw one.:wave:

I'm really not interested in proving every last point, and have made my points clearly. Believe me, I have better things to do than prove to you that sickness came through the fall, Jesus took the curse on himself, and gave us the keys to His kingdom and authority over Satan.

If you dont think the church has been given authority over sickness and the curse, it hardly matters "when".

[GreatistheLord]

Does someone want to post on the actual topic?

[Tamara224]

I'm really not interested in proving every last point, and have made my points clearly. Believe me, I have better things to do than prove to you that sickness came through the fall, Jesus took the curse on himself, and gave us the keys to His kingdom and authority over Satan.

If you dont think the church has been given authority over sickness and the curse, it hardly matters "when".

First, what you just said doesn't resemble the other claims you've made on this thread.

Second, it stands to reason that if there is Scripture to back it up, the Scripture might also give us a clue as to when.

Third, as one of Jimbeaux's sig-lines reads: If the first step in an argument is false, everything that follows after is false too.

So, if you can't even show Scripture to back up your premise, then we can't even begin to address the "when".

[JimfromOhio]

I'm not going to spell out everything. This thread is about when and not what.

It is about "WHEN" from our perspectives but you (and others) won't accept them. You believe the doctrine of when is accurate and we are wrong. :wave:

[dkbwarrior]

Hi,
I wanted to explore an idea that when Jesus destroyed the power of sin and death, and took the curse on himself on the cross, that the power of forgiveness, salvation and healing was released ,then and for always, for everyone who would believe for the rest of history.


Good topic, if you can ignore all the human philosophy and vain deceit in the thread.

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
-Galatians 3:13

Redemption for us is in the past tense, always. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law.

A study of the word redeem will reveal that it basically means to purchase back from the legal authority of another. Whose authority were we under?

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
-Romans 5:12-13

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
-Hebrews 2:14-15

We were in bondage to sin and death, and satan had the power of death to which we were in bondage through fear.

This is what Christ accomplished for us on the cross. He paid the price for our redemption, by taking our sin, our sickness, our poverty and all of the curse upon Himself.

21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
-2 Corinthians 2:21

10And Jehovah hath delighted to bruise him, He hath made him sick, If his soul doth make an offering for guilt, He seeth seed -- he prolongeth days, And the pleasure of Jehovah in his hand doth prosper.
-Isaiah 53:10 (Youngs Literal Translation)

9For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
-2 Corinthians 8:9

The curse of the law was every manifestation of death that sin had allowed the enemy to bring into this world.

And this was accomplished on the cross 2,000 years ago. That is why the scriptures tell us:

3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: -2 Peter 1:3

All these things have already been given unto us in the form of promise, by the grace of God, and we are authorized to access them through faith.

In response to the person that mockingly inquired where it was hanging out if it has already been given:

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
-Romans 5:18

God doesn't decide who He will save. He already provided salvation for the entire world, whosoever will access it by faith, 2,000 years ago on the cross. The free gift of righteousness has been given to all men, it is theirs for the taking, it exists in the spiritual realm waiting to be accessed by faith.

24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
-1 Peter 2:24

God doesn't decide who He will heal. He already provided healing for the entire world, whosoever will access it by faith, 2,000 yrars ago on the cross. The free gift of healing has been given to all men, it is theirs for the taking, it exists in the spiritual realm waiting to be accessed by faith.

This is the case for all of the redemption purchased for us by Jesus on the cross. It was paid in full 2,000 years ago. God excercised His will then for all. In this age, we must access the grace of God by faith:

2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
-Romans 5:2

When Jesus returns, then this grace will be manifest without the need to excercise ones faith for it. It will be the redemption of the purchased possession. Just as all tears will be wiped away, and there will be no sin.

But on this side of glory, we need to access it by faith.

Peace...

[pinetree]

Hi Jim,

Please tell me what you think.....
When was the full Healing power of Christ released ?
hello friend...:wave:

could you do me a favor?:thumbsup:

In just plain ole english,regular speak,

Where do we come in with the releasing,what do we do?

Thank you,brother pinetree.

[dkbwarrior]

hello friend...:wave:

could you do me a favor?:thumbsup:

In just plain ole english,regular speak,

Where do we come in with the releasing,what do we do?

Thank you,brother pinetree.

3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
-2 Peter 1:3-4

7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
-1 Corinthians 2:7-12

12And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
13And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
14And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.
20And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.
21And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.
22And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
23For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
24Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
-Mark 11:12-14, 20-24

1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
-Romans 5:1-5

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

Noticed he used "need to access by faith" which means legalism and without grace.

[pinetree]

3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
-2 Peter 1:3-4

7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
-1 Corinthians 2:7-12

12And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
13And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
14And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.
20And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.
21And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.
22And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
23For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
24Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
-Mark 11:12-14, 20-24

1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
-Romans 5:1-5

Peace...
hello my jubilant friend:wave:

how does a massive pasting of scripture, explain the question.Here is your tv i promised.It should be cable ready.:P

http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m375/hotrodfinkabilly/old_tv.jpg

[pinetree]

Noticed he used "need to access by faith" which means legalism and without grace.
Yup...It always has that same cord...

Faith without grace.Whenever you read alot of our friends posts.The emphasis is all on the beleiver,not Gods ample provision of grace.

It is all up to them ya know..

Boot camp .

[dkbwarrior]

3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
-2 Peter 1:3-4

7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
-1 Corinthians 2:7-12

12And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
13And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
14And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.
20And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.
21And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.
22And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
23For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
24Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
-Mark 11:12-14, 20-24

1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
-Romans 5:1-5




how does a massive pasting of scripture, explain the question.Here is your tv i promised.It should be cable ready.



Sorry, sidn't think it was massive, just four passages. The first passage tells us that Gods divine power has (past tense) given (by grace) to us all things that pertain to life and Godliness, through the knowledge of Him, whereby are given unto us great and precious promises.

The second scripture tells us that the term all things means the things that God has promised to them that love Him. This confirms Peters statement that the knowledge of Him is by the promises of God.

The fourth passage tells us that we have access by faith to this grace, these promises, the things of God, what the Bible calls, all things.

The thrid scripture tells us how faith works, by believing that you receive these all things when you pray.

Peace...

[pinetree]

Sorry, sidn't think it was massive, just four passages. The first passage tells us that Gods divine power has (past tense) given (by grace) to us all things that pertain to life and Godliness, through the knowledge of Him, whereby are given unto us great and precious promises.

The second scripture tells us that the term all things means the things that God has promised to them that love Him. This confirms Peters statement that the knowledge of Him is by the promises of God.

The fourth passage tells us that we have access by faith to this grace, these promises, the things of God, what the Bible calls, all things.

The thrid scripture tells us [I]how faith works, by believing that you receive these all things when you pray.

Peace...
naaaa,thanks but you really did not explain it.But thank you very much anyway.

[TheBloodOfJesus]

2 Peter 1:3
"His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through the full knowledge of the one who called us by his own glory and excellence."

Has His power given us everything that pertains to life and godliness or not?
The release of this power is PAST TENSE. This is not something He is going to do at some point in the future.
What part of this did God lie about?
What do you imagine He is withholding?
Only rank unbelief denies the plain and simple fact that He has already done everything He is going to do to save, heal, and provide all we need in life.
It is a lie of the devil that says He has not done it.
It is a lie of the devil that utters "hath God said?"

Ephesians 1:3
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ:"

What spiritual blessing do you imagine that He is withholding? He has given you all that heaven has to offer.

The greatest lie in Christianity today is the lie that says God did not do what He said He has done. The greatest lie we hear being spoken in this thread is the lie that says He has not done what these clear and plain scriptures say He has already done. Paul calls this the sin of unbelief. The OT story calls it an evil report, wickedness, and rebellion.

What can we say???
How much more obvious and clear can it be???
This is what faith is all about.
At it's most basic level, faith merely says "Yes.... you did what you said you did. Thy word is truth. I will walk by faith and not by sight."


What can we say except "Repent ye of dull spirits and hardened hearts... turn from your rebellions and trust God."

[ARBITER01]

Hi,

I wanted to explore an idea that when Jesus destroyed the power of sin and death, and took the curse on himself on the cross, that the power of forgiveness, salvation and healing was released ,then and for always, for everyone who would believe for the rest of history.

When someone believes for salvation, they accept what has already been given. The transaction from heaven that is made at that time is God giving them faith for salvation. They receive salvation.

When someone believes for healing, they accept the healing power that has already been given by Jesus. We can still debate where the faith comes from, but I am saying that the power for ALL healing was released 2000 years ago, and that faith between us and God makes that power available to us who believe.

Isaiah 53 ......By His stripes we were healed....
James 5:15 The prayer of faith will heal the sick.

This is in contrast to saying God's power is released whenever it's His will at that time.

Let's keep this civil.


You're jumbling a lot of things together in that.

Healing is not acccomplished outside of the gifts of The Spirit that were given unto believers. GOD never healed outside of working through Jesus, and will not work outside of working through one of us either.

GOD moves healing through the body of Christ, not outside of it. GOD has not changed HIS methods since the days of Jesus, and will not. GOD is not going to honor cessionalists(sp) and their "the gifts have stopped" theories by healing outside of the gifts.

[pinetree]

2 Peter 1:3
"His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through the full knowledge of the one who called us by his own glory and excellence."

Has His power given us everything that pertains to life and godliness or not?
The release of this power is PAST TENSE. This is not something He is going to do at some point in the future.
What part of this did God lie about?
What do you imagine He is withholding?
Only rank unbelief denies the plain and simple fact that He has already done everything He is going to do to save, heal, and provide all we need in life.
It is a lie of the devil that says He has not done it.
It is a lie of the devil that utters "hath God said?"

Ephesians 1:3
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ:"

What spiritual blessing do you imagine that He is withholding? He has given you all that heaven has to offer.

The greatest lie in Christianity today is the lie that says God did not do what He said He has done. The greatest lie we hear being spoken in this thread is the lie that says He has not done what these clear and plain scriptures say He has already done. Paul calls this the sin of unbelief. The OT story calls it an evil report, wickedness, and rebellion.

What can we say???
How much more obvious and clear can it be???
This is what faith is all about.
At it's most basic level, faith merely says "Yes.... you did what you said you did. Thy word is truth. I will walk by faith and not by sight."


What can we say except "Repent ye of dull spirits and hardened hearts... turn from your rebellions and trust God."

ya know i understand what you mean.:)

I love faith.BUT THROUGH GRACE!

the measure of faith we have comes from God.

Romans 12:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

Romans 12:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=6&version=31&context=verse)
We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith.

These verses show that according to the grace of God,each man has his own measure. Fair to say? it is scripture,is it not?


I think that a man can only have the faith that God gives,by grace (meaning it is not anything to do with me),in His proportion and time. No formulas.

If you wish to prove me wrong,than here is a verse for you to walk into funeral homes with tommorrow.

Matthew 10:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.


If you think all the sick dont have enough faith,lets see yours.Same verse that says heal,says raise dead.

If you guys are right,in your enterpretation of scripture,you should all be making the news in funeral homes tomorrow!

Then when you are finished,there are a few mountains that need moving,think of the glorious testimony that would be!:thumbsup:

Matthew 21:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=21&verse=21&version=31&context=verse)
Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done.


Formulas anyone?

You are not interpreting scripture correctly friend.:)


2 Timothy 2:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=2&verse=15&version=31&context=verse)
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth

[GreatistheLord]

First, what you just said doesn't resemble the other claims you've made on this thread.

Second, it stands to reason that if there is Scripture to back it up, the Scripture might also give us a clue as to when.

Third, as one of Jimbeaux's sig-lines reads: If the first step in an argument is false, everything that follows after is false too.

So, if you can't even show Scripture to back up your premise, then we can't even begin to address the "when".

Healing in the atonement is a standard Charismatic theology. If you want to debate that point, there are plenty of threads elsewhere to join. It's not what I want to discuss here.

Here is a verse for you

Matthew 10:7 And as you go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons.

This is Jesus's mandate to the disciples and the church.
NT healing ministry is overwhelmingly marked by healing that was simply dependant on faith.

e.g. Matthew 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

Repeat this 100 times and you have the NT model. This is my scriptural basis for saying that the power was released, and was activated then and now by our faith.

Can our unbelief, sin, unforgiveness, impatience... block this - yes, and more than we probably want to admit. Does God have His timing, sometimes yes. Is His ultimate will in question? No.

[GreatistheLord]

It is about "WHEN" from our perspectives but you (and others) won't accept them. You believe the doctrine of when is accurate and we are wrong. :wave:

Jim, I know you believe healing is in the atonement, can you back up why it wasnt released 2000 years ago ?

[GreatistheLord]

hello friend...:wave:

could you do me a favor?:thumbsup:

In just plain ole english,regular speak,

Where do we come in with the releasing,what do we do?

Thank you,brother pinetree.

Hi there,

In very simple terms, we must believe. I am not minimizing the faith that is required. It is a supernatural faith that comes by the Holy Spirit.

We are meant to be childlike in our faith. Would my earthly father withhold healing from me if it were his to give?

I know people will think I am being oversimplistic, it's too simple. I'd rather believe the Bible as I read it, and have a simple faith.

[GreatistheLord]

You're jumbling a lot of things together in that.

Healing is not acccomplished outside of the gifts of The Spirit that were given unto believers. GOD never healed outside of working through Jesus, and will not work outside of working through one of us either.

GOD moves healing through the body of Christ, not outside of it. GOD has not changed HIS methods since the days of Jesus, and will not. GOD is not going to honor cessionalists(sp) and their "the gifts have stopped" theories by healing outside of the gifts.

Why does the prayer of faith negate that? Jesus lives in every believer, but not every believer walks in divine healing. Likewise with the Holy Spirit.

[ARBITER01]

Why does the prayer of faith negate that? Jesus lives in every believer, but not every believer walks in divine healing. Likewise with the Holy Spirit.

The prayer of faith does not negate the gifts of healing because a person that is sick does not require the gifts of healing to heal them. A person that has cancer requires the gifts of healing to heal them, but not someone that is sick.

And you are correct about not everyone walking with the power gifts, but they are available to every Christian if they desire to reach for them.

[dkbwarrior]

2 Peter 1:3
"His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through the full knowledge of the one who called us by his own glory and excellence."

Has His power given us everything that pertains to life and godliness or not?
The release of this power is PAST TENSE. This is not something He is going to do at some point in the future.
What part of this did God lie about?
What do you imagine He is withholding?
Only rank unbelief denies the plain and simple fact that He has already done everything He is going to do to save, heal, and provide all we need in life.
It is a lie of the devil that says He has not done it.
It is a lie of the devil that utters "hath God said?"

Ephesians 1:3
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ:"

What spiritual blessing do you imagine that He is withholding? He has given you all that heaven has to offer.

The greatest lie in Christianity today is the lie that says God did not do what He said He has done. The greatest lie we hear being spoken in this thread is the lie that says He has not done what these clear and plain scriptures say He has already done. Paul calls this the sin of unbelief. The OT story calls it an evil report, wickedness, and rebellion.

What can we say???
How much more obvious and clear can it be???
This is what faith is all about.
At it's most basic level, faith merely says "Yes.... you did what you said you did. Thy word is truth. I will walk by faith and not by sight."


What can we say except "Repent ye of dull spirits and hardened hearts... turn from your rebellions and trust God."

Very good point. The writer of Hebrews tells us:

2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
-Hebrews 4:2

2We have heard the message, just as they did. But they failed to believe what they heard, and the message did not do them any good.
-Hebrews 4:2

The preached Word only profits those who believe it by faith.

Peace...

[pinetree]

Very good point. The writer of Hebrews tells us:

2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
-Hebrews 4:2

2We have heard the message, just as they did. But they failed to believe what they heard, and the message did not do them any good.
-Hebrews 4:2

The preached Word only profits those who believe it by faith.

Peace...
dkb,seriously,..really,tell me why you aren't going into funeral homes tomorrow to raise dead people?.
Just a simple basic question.
Humor me,just a simple answer.
I think this question proves a point.

Matthew 10:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

[dkbwarrior]

dkb,seriously,..really,tell me why you aren't going into funeral homes tomorrow to raise dead people?.
Just a simple basic question.
Humor me,just a simple answer.

Matthew 10:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

After all of the mocking threads and ridiculing comments that you have made regarding WOF, disregarding and misrepresenting what others have said, you want a serious answer? ;)

Well, I am up for it. I've been giving serious answers, even to the mocking, and I will continue to represent the love of my Lord in the best manner possible.

Two things here.

1) This statement was spoken by Jesus to the twelve apostles on their tour of Isreal during the mid-point of Jesus ministry. Now, that doesn't mean that we cannot appropriate it to some degree ourselves by faith, but this particular statement was meant for that day and time, and was referring to a particular annointing that they had received to do these things at that time.

We have the gifts of the Spirit today to do this, but these operate as the Lord wills, and are not subject to my manipulation.

2) In regards to healing by faith, the bigger question that you are getting at, my answer would be that my faith is not yet developed enough to empty the worlds hospitals, it is still growing; and even if it was, I could not, as I would always be limited to some degree by the unbelief of others.

Even Jesus was limited by the unbelief of others:

58And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
-Matthew 13:58

Peace...

[TheBloodOfJesus]

dkb,seriously,..really,tell me why you aren't going into funeral homes tomorrow to raise dead people?. Just a simple basic question.

Matthew 10:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

By your own words Pine...
If you think these words apply to every believer today... they why are you not raising every dead person you can find? If you reply that these words do not apply to every believer today... then what is your point?
You have answered your own question...
Fact is God has not promised that every believer will raise every dead person, nor has He told every believer to do this. But He has said that I have been given all that pertain to life and godliness. He has said that He has blessed me with all spiritual blessings. The fact that I do not go around raising every dead person in no way discounts the things that He HAS given us.
Grace without faith accomplishes nothing. There will not be a single soul in heaven that did not mix the grace of God with faith. According to the word of God, grace does not come to fruit without faith. God has SWORN that those in unbelief will NOT enter into the blessing.

Grace is what enables us to believe. But it sounds very much like you are saying that we can deny His word, even contradict Him to His face, and we will please Him anyway.

But what does the word say concerning this?

Does it say"
"without grace it is impossible to please Him"?

Or does it say:
"without faith it is impossible to please Him"?

Grace in a world without faith that believes in it is a dead world.

The grace of God is powerful. but it does not force itself into the lives of those who refuse it and contradict His word.

[TheBloodOfJesus]

After all of the mocking threads and ridiculing comments that you have made regarding WOF, disregarding and misrepresenting what others have said, you want a serious answer? ;)

Well, I am up for it. I've been giving serious answers, even to the mocking, and I will continue to represent the love of my Lord in the best manner possible.

Two things here.

1) This statement was spoken by Jesus to the twelve apostles on their tour of Isreal during the mid-point of Jesus ministry. Now, that doesn't mean that we cannot appropriate it to some degree ourselves by faith, but this particular statement was meant for that day and time, and was referring to a particular annointing that they had received to do these things at that time.

We have the gifts of the Spirit today to do this, but these operate as the Lord wills, and are not subject to my manipulation.

2) In regards to healing by faith, the bigger question that you are getting at, my answer would be that my faith is not yet developed enough to empty the worlds hospitals, it is still growing; and even if it was, I could not, as I would always be limited to some degree by the unbelief of others.

Even Jesus was limited by the unbelief of others:

58And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
-Matthew 13:58

Peace...

Amen...
I am astounded that once again we are hearing Chrsitans trying to talk people out of believing God for the blessings His suffering and blood has provided us. I cannot imagine how much this displeases Him.

[pinetree]

After all of the mocking threads and ridiculing comments that you have made regarding WOF, disregarding and misrepresenting what others have said, you want a serious answer? ;)

Well, I am up for it. I've been giving serious answers, even to the mocking, and I will continue to represent the love of my Lord in the best manner possible.

Two things here.

1) This statement was spoken by Jesus to the twelve apostles on their tour of Isreal during the mid-point of Jesus ministry. Now, that doesn't mean that we cannot appropriate it to some degree ourselves by faith, but this particular statement was meant for that day and time, and was referring to a particular annointing that they had received to do these things at that time.

We have the gifts of the Spirit today to do this, but these operate as the Lord wills, and are not subject to my manipulation.

2) In regards to healing by faith, the bigger question that you are getting at, my answer would be that my faith is not yet developed enough to empty the worlds hospitals, it is still growing; and even if it was, I could not, as I would always be limited to some degree by the unbelief of others.

Even Jesus was limited by the unbelief of others:

58And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
-Matthew 13:58

Peace...
thank you! I agree!:D:clap:

Example:

ok,so we are saying,just like when Jesus said to the rich young ruler,go sell all..

We are saying that that verse was for the ruler,spoken at a certain time to him.It was a subjective word for the ruler,not for me now.

So that proves that we have to read all scripture the same way.(see the red)

Should the healing verses be rhema or logos? Thats all I have been trying to say.

otherwise we all have to sell all,and we all must raise the dead,and move a mountain.

So why would we not do the same thing with the healing verses?

Different experiences,for different people,then and now.All by grace,all alloted,all by his timing.



Second point.

You were very honest.Your faith is not developed yet.

Fair to say it may never develope to raise dead?

Then why not understand that a sick persons faith may not be developed either..no formulas..

[pinetree]

By your own words Pine...
If you think these words apply to every believer today... they why are you not raising every dead person you can find? If you reply that these words do not apply to every believer today... then what is your point?
You have answered your own question...
Fact is God has not promised that every believer will raise every dead person, nor has He told every believer to do this. But He has said that I have been given all that pertain to life and godliness. He has said that He has blessed me with all spiritual blessings. The fact that I do not go around raising every dead person in no way discounts the things that He HAS given us.
Grace without faith accomplishes nothing. There will not be a single soul in heaven that did not mix the grace of God with faith. According to the word of God, grace does not come to fruit without faith. God has SWORN that those in unbelief will NOT enter into the blessing.

Grace is what enables us to believe. But it sounds very much like you are saying that we can deny His word, even contradict Him to His face, and we will please Him anyway.

But what does the word say concerning this?

Does it say"
"without grace it is impossible to please Him"?

Or does it say:
"without faith it is impossible to please Him"?

Grace in a world without faith that believes in it is a dead world.

The grace of God is powerful. but it does not force itself into the lives of those who refuse it and contradict His word.
thank you.sure thing!:thumbsup:

I agree,thats why I am not raising the dead.

If God gave me a subjective rhema word ,fine,then and only then,would I march into a funeral home..see what I am saying..

but lets just keep your logic going with sick saints too.

Fair point to say?

They,like you can only have the faith God aportions.:)

[probinson]

You are going to have to explain to me, if James 5.15 is failsafe and surety that we will be physicallyhealed when elders anoint us with oil and pray in faith over us, THEN WHY DOESN’T IT HAPPEN EVERY TIME like you claim it will?
Actually, I didn't make any "claim" at all. All I posted was scripture, sans commentary.

:cool:

[TheBloodOfJesus]

thank you.sure thing!:thumbsup:

I agree,thats why I am not raising the dead.

If God gave me a subjective rhema word ,fine,then and only then,would I march into a funeral home..see what I am saying..

but lets just keep your logic going with sick saints too.

Fair point to say?

They,like you can only have the faith God aportions.:)
So you are proposing a catch 22?
God has by grace provided these things.. but now He will deny us the faith required to accept them?
Either way, it does not change what He said.
Has He given us all things that pertain to life and Godliness or not?
Yes or no?
How should we think and act in accordance with this?

Lets take your proposal and apply it to salvation.
God has said "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Are you suggesting that someone may call upon the name of the Lord and then He will not save them, that He selectively applies His grace?
That is extreme Calvinism at it's worst.

[pinetree]

So you are proposing a catch 22?
God has by grace provided these things.. but now He will deny us the faith required to accept them?
Either way, it does not change what He said.
Has He given us all things that pertain to life and Godliness or not?
Yes or no?
How should we think and act in accordance with this?

Lets take your proposal and apply it to salvation.
God has said "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Are you suggesting that someone may call upon the name of the Lord and then He will not save them, that He selectively applies His grace?
That is extreme Calvinism at it's worst.
well.ok then.

if that is how you wish to approach scripture.

Go sell all you have,and give it to the poor.

Go raise the dead.

Go move a mountain.

Heal the sick.

HE SAID!

[ARBITER01]

well.ok then.

if that is how you wish to approach scripture.

Go sell all you have,and give it to the poor.

Go raise the dead.

Go move a mountain.

Heal the sick.

HE SAID!

I seen that out of a few folks here. Do people care more about what GOD said than what GOD says?!? If so, that would be bible idolatry.

[dkbwarrior]

Should the healing verses be rhema or logos? Thats all I have been trying to say.


Definately rhema. Not sure if the terminology is entirely correct, but I understand what you are saying.

Any promise, healing or otherwise, needs to be revealed to us by the Holy Spirit, which is what the New Testament calls wisdom/revelation. That is how faith comes. Without the Spirit quickening the promise to you, you will not have faith for it.




Then why not understand that a sick persons faith may not be developed either..no formulas..


If God gave me a subjective rhema word ,fine,then and only then,would I march into a funeral home..see what I am saying..

but lets just keep your logic going with sick saints too.

Fair point to say?

They, like you can only have the faith God aportions.


I agree.

What I don't agree with is the following assumption that you make. Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be saying that God has provided the promises, but is witholding the wisdom/revelation/rhema faith to receive them.

What you seem to be missing is that God has already given us the Holy Spirit for just this purpose. The potential for this wisdom/revelation/rhema faith is in the inside of us now, if we are a believer.



20But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
-1 John 2:20



27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
-1 John 2:27



9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
-1 Corinthians 2:9-12




14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
-1 John 16:14-15


God is not withholding revelation from His children, we can know Him as much as we desire. The only limitation is our desire for Him. We are all limited by our own lives and set priotities. When someone comes along that is entirely dedicated to Him at the loss of all else, there is no limit to how intimate their relationship can become with the Father.



31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
-John 8:31-32



21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
-John 14:21-26


Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

Definately rhema. Not sure if the terminology is entirely correct, but I understand what you are saying.

Any promise, healing or otherwise, needs to be revealed to us by the Holy Spirit, which is what the New Testament calls wisdom/revelation. That is how faith comes. Without the Spirit quickening the promise to you, you will not have faith for it.





I agree.

What I don't agree with is the following assumption that you make. Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be saying that God has provided the promises, but is witholding the wisdom/revelation/rhema faith to receive them.

What you seem to be missing is that God has already given us the Holy Spirit for just this purpose. The potential for this wisdom/revelation/rhema faith is in the inside of us now, if we are a believer.









God is not withholding revelation from His children, we can know Him as much as we desire. The only limitation is our desire for Him. We are all limited by our own lives and set priotities. When someone comes along that is entirely dedicated to Him at the loss of all else, there is no limit to how intimate their relationship can become with the Father.






Peace...

If you look at Hebrews 5:10 through 6:8 which is about spiritual maturity that relates not to believers, but to unbelievers. People have the intellectually convinced of the validity of Christianity, but have been resisting Holy Spirit's conviction. People had gone through all the stages preliminary to salvation, but had never experienced it because they keep on resisting. They could no longer discern between good and evil (Hebrews 5:11-14). There are millions of professing Christians who "think" they have been justified, who think their sins are forgiven and that they are on their way to heaven, who show no evidence of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit in their lives. Often legalism often gets in the way by creating methods that requires "WORKS". Having various "systems" that don't require grace.

Also, there are those who are excluding grace by adding "working on faith" to get better results in terms of merit (i.e. revelation by desiring in faith).

[pinetree]

I seen that out of a few folks here. Do people care more about what GOD said than what GOD says?!? If so, that would be bible idolatry.
I know just what you mean bro..:)

[TheBloodOfJesus]

well.ok then.

if that is how you wish to approach scripture.

Go sell all you have,and give it to the poor.

Go raise the dead.

Go move a mountain.

Heal the sick.

HE SAID!

Knock Knock...
that is exactly my point.

It is good to see that you get it.

[ARBITER01]

Knock Knock...
that is exactly my point.

It is good to see that you get it.

If that is your understanding of scripture and how you approach it, it is absolutely wrong.

Jesus heard what The Father said and showed Him. He didn't carry around scrolls to try and divine the will of GOD from them, He heard The Father speak and seen what HE revealed in His spirit, and then obeyed that will.

If we want to be a son of GOD, then we are to be conformed into His image, which means we will do absolutely the same things He did, and by the same means. There is no other way to reach this standard of His,...


12 ¶ (ASV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father.


If we don't learn from Jesus to do those things the way He gave us to do them, we shall never grow beyond a servant. There is no perfect way other than the way that Jesus did it.

[pinetree]

If that is your understanding of scripture and how you approach it, it is absolutely wrong.

Jesus heard what The Father said and showed Him. He didn't carry around scrolls to try and divine the will of GOD from them, He heard The Father speak and seen what HE revealed in His spirit, and then obeyed that will.

If we want to be a son of GOD, then we are to be conformed into His image, which means we will do absolutely the same things He did, and by the same means. There is no other way to reach this standard of His,...



If we don't learn from Jesus to do those things the way He gave us to do them, we shall never grow beyond a servant. There is no perfect way other than the way that Jesus did it.
thank you.:)

[TheBloodOfJesus]

If that is your understanding of scripture and how you approach it, it is absolutely wrong.

Jesus heard what The Father said and showed Him. He didn't carry around scrolls to try and divine the will of GOD from them, He heard The Father speak and seen what HE revealed in His spirit, and then obeyed that will.

If we want to be a son of GOD, then we are to be conformed into His image, which means we will do absolutely the same things He did, and by the same means. There is no other way to reach this standard of His,...



If we don't learn from Jesus to do those things the way He gave us to do them, we shall never grow beyond a servant. There is no perfect way other than the way that Jesus did it.
That is what I said.

[pinetree]

Definately rhema. Not sure if the terminology is entirely correct, but I understand what you are saying.

Any promise, healing or otherwise, needs to be revealed to us by the Holy Spirit, which is what the New Testament calls wisdom/revelation. That is how faith comes. Without the Spirit quickening the promise to you, you will not have faith for it. Yes,that is what I mean,or you wont have the faith to go and do.It has to be quickened,not pasted mechanically onto a situation.Rhemas come for the moment,aportioned by God. Are all rhema words for all,all the time,for everyone? Then how can it be a rhema?

It sounds like you are trying to "rhematize" all of scripture.

If most scripture was written out of rhema words,or revelation,experiences out of their lives,how can we now formulize the bible, with what we could call the "action verses" where the Spirit moves about with a direct purpose and direction.How can we think we can "mechcanicalize" the spirit?

Unlike verses that tell us our new covenant standing,who we are in grace,what Jsus did on the cross,who we are in Him,and all the other wonderful things to learn,etc.

See what I mean?












I agree.

What I don't agree with is the following assumption that you make. Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be saying that God has provided the promises, but is witholding the wisdom/revelation/rhema faith to receive them.

I never said withold,just have to have it quickened,and we see it is not always everywhere,all the time.,

What you seem to be missing is that God has already given us the Holy Spirit for just this purpose. The potential for this wisdom/revelation/rhema faith is in the inside of us now, if we are a believer.

The potential is only by grace.Fair to say?









God is not withholding revelation from His children, we can know Him as much as we desire. The only limitation is our desire for Him. We are all limited by our own lives and set priotities. When someone comes along that is entirely dedicated to Him at the loss of all else, there is no limit to how intimate their relationship can become with the Father.

Nope,it is not about our desire or effort even.
Romans 9:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=16&version=31&context=verse)
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.






Peace...
Just curious,no tricks.Would you define rhema,and logos,as far as your definitions,thanks.

[JimfromOhio]

That is what I said.

Yeah.... But "knowing" what you believe, I know you have a different perspective than we do under the statement. :P

[TheBloodOfJesus]

I seen that out of a few folks here. Do people care more about what GOD said than what GOD says?!? If so, that would be bible idolatry.
Since God does not change, what He said and what He says are exactly the same. And since God is no respector of persons, He says the same things to everyone.


What exactly is "He" saying to you that is not in the written word?

[JimfromOhio]

Since God does not change, what He said and what He says are exactly the same. And since God is no respector of persons, He says the same things to everyone.


What exactly is "He" saying to you that is not in the written word?
Yes.. God never change. "Jesus Christ (God) the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." -- Hebrews 13:8

What Jesus did with great faiths of the Old Testament has not change what he is doing with us today. The only difference between Old and New Testament is Law and Grace.

[dkbwarrior]

Since God does not change, what He said and what He says are exactly the same. And since God is no respector of persons, He says the same things to everyone.


What exactly is "He" saying to you that is not in the written word?

That is the scary part, isn't it?

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

That is the scary part, isn't it?

Peace...

Yes, its scary. There are those who thinks people of the New Testament won't face same issues of the Old Testament that great faiths faced. We have to remember that God never change.

[dkbwarrior]

Just curious,no tricks.Would you define rhema,and logos,as far as your definitions,thanks.

I would define logos as the written Word, and rhema as the revealed Word.

I think we probably see eye to eye on that part of it.

Peace...

[ARBITER01]

Since God does not change, what He said and what He says are exactly the same. And since God is no respector of persons, He says the same things to everyone.


What exactly is "He" saying to you that is not in the written word?

That is a very deceptive reasoning out of you, and only proves my point further.

We have a personal, daily, living, relationship with The Lord of Lord's. We are to be one with Jesus and The Father just like He was one with The Father when He walked the earth. We are an extention of Jesus down here, hence the term "body of Christ."

Jesus did not carry scrolls around with Him to try and figure out The Fathers next move HE wanted to do with Jesus, He heard The Father speak and was showed in His spirit what to do just like Jesus Himself said in scripture, and Jesus obeyed.

There are no instances in scripture depicting such things as spitting on clay to rub on a person's eyes for them to receive healing. Such things that Jesus did were on the spot and immediate from The Father. To think that we are to somehow do things differently now than how The Lord did them, or any of the documented disciples, is absolutely wrong.

His example is our example. We are to be conformed into His image. We are to become sons and no longer remain servants. There is no way this can happen if we will not listen to Him and allow Him to change us in prayer.

[dkbwarrior]

Jesus did not carry scrolls around with Him to try and figure out The Fathers next move HE wanted to do with Jesus, He heard The Father speak and was showed in His spirit what to do just like Jesus Himself said in scripture, and Jesus obeyed.


Though this may be true technically, it is not true practically. Jesus had scripture memorized. I have heard it said that at that time, the entire torah was memorized by a youth before he left home.


There are no instances in scripture depicting such things as spitting on clay to rub on a person's eyes for them to receive healing. Such things that Jesus did were on the spot and immediate from The Father. To think that we are to somehow do things differently now than how The Lord did them, or any of the documented disciples, is absolutely wrong.

His example is our example. We are to be conformed into His image. We are to become sons and no longer remain servants. There is no way this can happen if we will not listen to Him and allow Him to change us in prayer.

You just made a very good argument here in support of the revival going on in Lakeland Florida, and against the most common criticism of its detractors.

Peace...

[ARBITER01]

Though this may be true technically, it is not true practically. Jesus had scripture memorized. I have heard it said that at that time, the entire torah was memorized by a youth before he left home.

Nice guess on your part to try and help your friend,..


John 12:49 (NKJV) "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.


Jesus did not use memorization as stated by Him here. In fact there are several places in the book of John where he states very similar words,..


John 8:28 (NKJV) Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.


Jesus doesn't say in these passages anything remotely resembling what you suggested: "As I have memorized, so I speak." Nice try, but the works that Jesus did were completely in one with The Father, not humanistic. Jesus never bore witness of Himself in His deeds as you are suggesting.

You just made a very good argument here in support of the revival going on in Lakeland Florida, and against the most common criticism of its detractors.

Peace...


Really?

Oh,.... so you mean that bentley is doing things exactly like the example that Jesus gave us in scripture to follow all along? Just like Peter and Paul and the other apostles followed Jesus and conformed to His image?

You mean that bentley has been walking worthy of his calling by doing nothing but what The Father says for him to do also?

Again, nice try, but GOD is not in the business of residing over a circus.

[JimfromOhio]

Nice guess on your part to try and help your friend,..



Jesus did not use memorization as stated by Him here. In fact there are several places in the book of John where he states very similar words,..



Jesus doesn't say in these passages anything remotely resembling what you suggested: "As I have memorized, so I speak." Nice try, but the works that Jesus did were completely in one with The Father, not humanistic. Jesus never bore witness of Himself in His deeds as you are suggesting.




Really?

Oh,.... so you mean that bentley is doing things exactly like the example that Jesus gave us in scripture to follow all along? Just like Peter and Paul and the other apostles followed Jesus and conformed to His image?

You mean that bentley has been walking worthy of his calling by doing nothing but what The Father says for him to do also?

Again, nice try, but GOD is not in the business of residing over a circus.
:thumbsup: That could have been my post as well.

[ARBITER01]

:thumbsup: That could have been my post as well.


Thanks much!

[dkbwarrior]

Nice guess on your part to try and help your friend,..

Jesus did not use memorization as stated by Him here. In fact there are several places in the book of John where he states very similar words,..


You have provide no evidence that Jesus did not hear from the Father both through the scriptures and through the Spirit. Jesus said He heard from the Father; He did not say how He heard. It is only assumption on your part that He heard from the Father solely outside of scripture.




Jesus doesn't say in these passages anything remotely resembling what you suggested: "As I have memorized, so I speak." Nice try, but the works that Jesus did were completely in one with The Father, not humanistic. Jesus never bore witness of Himself in His deeds as you are suggesting.


Jesus didn't have the scripture memorized?

What about all the times He said, "It is written"? Of course He had scripture memorized.

I think you are quite confused here.




Really?

Oh,.... so you mean that bentley is doing things exactly like the example that Jesus gave us in scripture to follow all along? Just like Peter and Paul and the other apostles followed Jesus and conformed to His image?

You mean that bentley has been walking worthy of his calling by doing nothing but what The Father says for him to do also?

Again, nice try, but GOD is not in the business of residing over a circus.

Oh, I don't know Bentleys heart at all, and neither do you.

You said that Jesus listened to the Father and did things that didn't have specific precedent in the Old Testament. You even used the example of making mud out of spit. I agree.

The detractors of Bentley like to say that some of His methods don't have precedent in the scripture either, and they say that this proves that they are not of God.

But according to your logic, that is how it is supposed to work, if one is following the example of Jesus, and listening to the Holy Spirit.

Of course, I would argue that when God wants to heal through the gifts, He will, and the precedent for particular methodology is not important, only the result; as evidenced by the ministry of Jesus himself.

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

Jesus didn't have the scripture memorized?

What about all the times He said, "It is written"? Of course He had scripture memorized.

I think you are quite confused here.




You said that Jesus listened to the Father and did things that didn't have specific precedent in the Old Testament. You even used the example of making mud out of spit. I agree.

The detractors of Bentley like to say that some of His methods don't have precedent in the scripture either, and they say that this proves that they are not of God.

But according to your logic, that is how it is supposed to work, if one is following the example of Jesus, and listening to the Holy Spirit.

Of course, I would argue that when God wants to heal through the gifts, He will, and the precedent for particular methodology is not important, only the result.

Peace...

Didn't you forget that Jesus, Himself is God and He knows what He wrote. :confused:

[dkbwarrior]

Didn't you forget that Jesus, Himself is God and He knows what He wrote. :confused:

How then did He increase in wisdom, if He was born with it already?

52And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
-Luke 2:52

You seem to forget that He laid aside His divine attributes when He became flesh. He had to learn like any other man. By reading the Torah, and listening to the Spirit.

Peace...

[TheBloodOfJesus]

I think this thread is very good evidence that most anti-wof folk do not realize that they actually agree with WoF on many many issues... but are so ignorant of WoF teaches that they do know that the things they "fault" with WoF, are not taught by WoF at all.

Tempest in a teapot.

[JimfromOhio]

How then did He increase in wisdom, if He was born with it already?

52And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
-Luke 2:52

You seem to forget that He laid aside His divine attributes when He became flesh. He had to learn like any other man. By reading the Torah, and listening to the Spirit.

Peace...
Earlier in Luke 2, the first wo