Faith,where should it take us??

[pinetree]

hello friends.:wave:
Speaking for myself,and most likely many other Spirit filled believers here,we love faith,and rejoice in Gods healing,through faith and grace too!:clap:

And I think it is fair to say,that those not on the wof side of the isle have reasons for their arguments.

The bottom line is,we all see all are not healed or prosperous,we see that all across the globe.It is called suffering.

Both sides got their verses..But

In hebrew 11,the faith chapter,I think we see the obvious..
You can have faith,but NOT always get what you want. And God still views your faith as great.:thumbsup:


Some achieved what they wanted,others did not.

1 Corinthians 15:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=19&version=31&context=verse)
If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

Lets look to our faith examples,other human beings who loved God.Frail humans,like us,who all hoped for the best.

8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

Where was Abraham's heart also looking too,earth or heaven? Our future life.

13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

Where was their heart set? A heavenly one! The future.

36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground. 39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.


Could it be that when people are not healed today,is because God has a greater viewpoint and perspective on life? The peole sawn in half had faith,but it did not manifest the way they wanted.After all,who would stand on that verse today,sawn in half, as their daily faith confession?

God bless you if you have been healed,but remember one thing,the unhealed brother next to you,might just be a great man of faith too,like those put in prison,or stoned mentioned above...Whom God has a different plan for.A heavenly one. A heavenly victory.

[GreatistheLord]

I have to disagree with you on this one.

Yes, we are called to suffer with Christ, that we may be glorified with Him.

In hebrew 11,the faith chapter,I think we see the obvious..
You can have faith,but NOT always get what you want.
Hebrews 11 does not say that.

Abraham did not receive ,in his mortal body, the promise, but by faith he most certainly did. In fact,he was credited as righteous because of that. He was never going to be the father of many nations in his own lifetime, but it still happened, and Abraham was as much alive and living when it came it pass, as he was when he received the promise.

Faith is the evidence of things hoped for. Can *we* abort God's will after we receive faith, yes absolutely. That does not take away from God's will and promises to us.

I believe God sees the end from the beginning and if we receive by faith, by God's word, to God it's as good as finished.

[Elijah2]

Faith always takes me to the next mile!

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

[Jimbeaux]

I have to disagree with you on this one.

Yes, we are called to suffer with Christ, that we may be glorified with Him.
Originally Posted by pinetree
In hebrew 11,the faith chapter,I think we see the obvious..
You can have faith,but NOT always get what you want.

Hebrews 11 does not say that.

*****

Oh, contrare, …
Hebrews 11. 35 By faith . . . others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. 36 Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— 38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.
39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.
~Jim


The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.

[JimfromOhio]

I want to repeat my favorite definitions of "FAITH" that I have collected over the years.


The source of Faith is the Holy Spirit that faith is kindled and is preserved and made strong by grace alone. Faith is the first step of obedience proves to be an act of faith in the word of Christ by responding to the conviction of the Holy Spirit. But we should completely misunderstand the nature of grace if we were to suppose that there was no need to take the first-step, because faith was already there. Faith comes only when the outward fact penetrates to the inner heart of man and takes possession of him there and this is the work of the Spirit, not man. By faith we receive the saving grace of God that delivers us from guilt and sin. In love we participate in the victorious struggle of God against the principalities and powers of evil. Faith, as Apostle Paul saw it, was a living, flaming thing leading to surrender and obedience to the commandments of Christ.

Faith recognizes the fact that God is in control of my life. Whether I believe it or not, it's a fact that God is in control of the world. If I don't believe it, I'm just robbing myself of the enjoyment of the fact. Faith never means gullibility. The man who believes everything is as far from God as the man who refuses to believe anything. Faith believes that God, in his grace, has stepped over the boundary into human history and told us some great and very valuable facts. Faith believes and adjusts according to life by those facts and walks on that basis. Faith is when you cannot answer a skeptic but be content to wait for more light while at the same time never forsake a great principle of God's Character. The Christian faith is meant to be lived moment by moment by looking forward to our eternal inheritance will help us maintain a proper perspective on temporal things and motivate us to praise and adore God. We know it takes true faith to perseverance because true faith is to believe what you do not yet see; the blessings for faith is to see what you believe. As this one well known verse says "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1). Faith never knows where it is being led, but it loves and knows the One who is leading. Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible only according to God's will, not our imagination. The great enemy of faith is a complacent spirit, an attitude of self-satisfaction with the status quo.

Faith, for instance, is not positive thinking; that is something quite different. Faith is not a hunch that is followed. Faith is not hoping for the best, hoping that everything will turn out all right. Faith is not a feeling of optimism. Faith is none of these things, though all of them have been identified as faith.

[JimfromOhio]

I have to disagree with you on this one.

Yes, we are called to suffer with Christ, that we may be glorified with Him.


Hebrews 11 does not say that.

Abraham did not receive ,in his mortal body, the promise, but by faith he most certainly did. In fact,he was credited as righteous because of that. He was never going to be the father of many nations in his own lifetime, but it still happened, and Abraham was as much alive and living when it came it pass, as he was when he received the promise.

Faith is the evidence of things hoped for. Can *we* abort God's will after we receive faith, yes absolutely. That does not take away from God's will and promises to us.

I believe God sees the end from the beginning and if we receive by faith, by God's word, to God it's as good as finished.
2 Thessalonians 2:16
May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope.

Titus 1:2 said "faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time."

God will commend you for your faith, if you have not received what has been promised before you die because God has planned something BETTER for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect (Heb 11:39-40).

[GreatistheLord]

2 Thessalonians 2:16
May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope.

Titus 1:2 said "faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time."

God will commend you for your faith, if you have not received what has been promised before you die because God has planned something BETTER for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect (Heb 11:39-40).

Jim, you can quote verses with "eternal" in all day long. Eternity starts today! It doesnt prove a thing.

[JimfromOhio]

Jim, you can quote verses with "eternal" in all day long. Eternity starts today! It doesnt prove a thing.
Eternity starts the moment you are saved and never ENDS. This is God's grace that just initiates at salvation and sustains all the way, every benefit in life, every benefit in eternity is by God's grace. The new Covenant is sealed in the blood of Jesus, Who is our Savior and Mediator, brought us together with His Grace and Mercy that we have great spiritual and eternal freedom.

The Christian faith is meant to be lived moment by moment by looking forward to our eternal inheritance will help us maintain a proper perspective on temporal things and motivate us to praise and adore God.

[GreatistheLord]

Oh, contrare, …
Hebrews 11. 35 By faith . . . others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. 36 Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— 38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.
39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.
~Jim



The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.


The point is that their faith *was* rewarded. To say that they didn't receive is a complete mockery of what they went through. Maybe they didnt get *all* of their reward this side of the grave, but so what......

13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them


We are still called to live a life of faith, and not to use Hebrews 11 as a reason to not even try, or to falsely say that we dont have promises on Earth, but only for the afterlife.

Abraham lived a life of faith, was extremely wealthy, saw his wife give him a child at an impossible age. He was as much a father of nations when he was alive as when "dead".

[JimfromOhio]

The point is that their faith *was* rewarded. To say that they didn't receive is a complete mockery of what they went through. Maybe they didnt get *all* of their reward this side of the grave, but so what......

13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them


We are still called to live a life of faith, and not to use Hebrews 11 as a reason to not even try, or to falsely say that we dont have promises on Earth, but only for the afterlife.

Abraham lived a life of faith, was extremely wealthy, saw his wife give him a child at an impossible age. He was as much a father of nations when he was alive as when "dead".
Mockery?

Who said not to use Hebrew 11?

Corinthians 1:22 "Set His seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come."

1 Peter 1:7 - These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

“Knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, that you may be perfect (mature) and complete, lacking in nothing” (Jam. 1:3-4).

[Jimbeaux]

I have to disagree with you on this one.

Yes, we are called to suffer with Christ, that we may be glorified with Him.


Hebrews 11 does not say that.

Abraham did not receive ,in his mortal body, the promise, but by faith he most certainly did. In fact,he was credited as righteous because of that. He was never going to be the father of many nations in his own lifetime, but it still happened, and Abraham was as much alive and living when it came it pass, as he was when he received the promise.

Faith is the evidence of things hoped for. Can *we* abort God's will after we receive faith, yes absolutely. That does not take away from God's will and promises to us.

I believe God sees the end from the beginning and if we receive by faith, by God's word, to God it's as good as finished.

The point is that their faith *was* rewarded. To say that they didn't receive is a complete mockery of what they went through. Maybe they didnt get *all* of their reward this side of the grave, but so what......

13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them


We are still called to live a life of faith, and not to use Hebrews 11 as a reason to not even try, or to falsely say that we dont have promises on Earth, but only for the afterlife.

Abraham lived a life of faith, was extremely wealthy, saw his wife give him a child at an impossible age. He was as much a father of nations when he was alive as when "dead".

Then would it be correct to say, we too, as many of us have faith in the promise of perpetual healing, will have to wait until the ultimate healing when this mortal (dying) puts on immortality and this corruptible puts on incorruption?

~Jim

The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.

[pinetree]

I have to disagree with you on this one.

Yes, we are called to suffer with Christ, that we may be glorified with Him.


Hebrews 11 does not say that.

Abraham did not receive ,in his mortal body, the promise, but by faith he most certainly did. In fact,he was credited as righteous because of that. He was never going to be the father of many nations in his own lifetime, but it still happened, and Abraham was as much alive and living when it came it pass, as he was when he received the promise.

Faith is the evidence of things hoped for. Can *we* abort God's will after we receive faith, yes absolutely. That does not take away from God's will and promises to us.

I believe God sees the end from the beginning and if we receive by faith, by God's word, to God it's as good as finished.




36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground. 39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.


Then please explain verses 36 to 40 .:) They suffered,as do ill saints today,why did that happen to the people of faith in heb 11?
----------------------------------------------------------------

Hebrews 11:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=11&verse=26&version=31&context=verse)
He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward.


Might I aso say,the whole point also of the op,shows we are to be eternally minded in our faith,as per the verse above.

Not all faith is about this life,not all receive everything in this life.Even Abraham did not receive,for he was looking for the city who's foundation was God.That he saw after death.For he is now in Heaven.

And we seek the one to come.That is our hope,riches stored up in heaven.:)

[pinetree]

I have to disagree with you on this one.

Yes, we are called to suffer with Christ, that we may be glorified with Him.


Hebrews 11 does not say that.

Abraham did not receive ,in his mortal body, the promise, but by faith he most certainly did. In fact,he was credited as righteous because of that. He was never going to be the father of many nations in his own lifetime, but it still happened, and Abraham was as much alive and living when it came it pass, as he was when he received the promise.

Faith is the evidence of things hoped for. Can *we* abort God's will after we receive faith, yes absolutely. That does not take away from God's will and promises to us.

I believe God sees the end from the beginning and if we receive by faith, by God's word, to God it's as good as finished.
hi there:wave:
then why does Heb 11,clearly point out both..

Those who attained in this life,and those who did not?

[pinetree]

2 Thessalonians 2:16
May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope.

Titus 1:2 said "faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time."

God will commend you for your faith, if you have not received what has been promised before you die because God has planned something BETTER for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect (Heb 11:39-40).
:thumbsup:

[pinetree]

Eternity starts the moment you are saved and never ENDS. This is God's grace that just initiates at salvation and sustains all the way, every benefit in life, every benefit in eternity is by God's grace. The new Covenant is sealed in the blood of Jesus, Who is our Savior and Mediator, brought us together with His Grace and Mercy that we have great spiritual and eternal freedom.

The Christian faith is meant to be lived moment by moment by looking forward to our eternal inheritance will help us maintain a proper perspective on temporal things and motivate us to praise and adore God.
Thanks Jim exactly what I meant.

[GreatistheLord]

Then would it be correct to say, we too, as many of us have faith in the promise of perpetual healing, will have to wait until the ultimate healing when this mortal (dying) puts on immortality and this corruptible puts on incorruption?

~Jim


The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.



True, but God did not send Jesus to die for sin *and* sickness just so that we would say "yeah, great, but I'll just wait for the new body".

[GreatistheLord]

Mockery?

Who said not to use Hebrew 11?



I never said that, or anything vaguely close.

[GreatistheLord]

36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground. 39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.


Then please explain verses 36 to 40 .:) They suffered,as do ill saints today,why did that happen to the people of faith in heb 11?


ILL saints today are in a completely different category to christians who are persecuted for their faith and thrown to lions. What is the connection?

Most of the church today have no concept of the suffering refered to by Paul. Who knows anyone that was eaten alive because they were a christian ?????? Paul warned them specifically about suffering in the NT because he knew this was going to happen. We think because we have a bad day, that we're suffering!

Noone mentioned is sick and didnt receive healing by faith.

On the contrary, verse 34 talks about from weakness became strong, women received back their dead. If anything, they received healing and resurrection by faith. Paul is not specific about each case what promise they did not receive by faith.

[ARBITER01]

That faith given unto us should eventually move us to be just like Jesus, to do the things He did. We are the body of Christ, an extension of Him on earth, and GOD wants to move through Jesus the say way that HE did when Jesus walked the earth.

If our goals in life have no desire to be like Jesus and confrom to His image, then we are doing something wrong. I see no other true ambition.

[pinetree]

ILL saints today are in a completely different category to christians who are persecuted for their faith and thrown to lions. What is the connection?

Most of the church today have no concept of the suffering refered to by Paul. Who knows anyone that was eaten alive because they were a christian ?????? Paul warned them specifically about suffering in the NT because he knew this was going to happen. We think because we have a bad day, that we're suffering!

Noone mentioned is sick and didnt receive healing by faith.

On the contrary, verse 34 talks about from weakness became strong, women received back their dead. If anything, they received healing and resurrection by faith. Paul is not specific about each case what promise they did not receive by faith.
why?

8We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about the hardships we suffered in the province of Asia. We were under great pressure, far beyond our ability to endure, so that we despaired even of life. 9Indeed, in our hearts we felt the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead. 10He has delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us. On him we have set our hope that he will continue to deliver us, 11as you help us by your prayers. Then many will give thanks on our behalf for the gracious favor granted us in answer to the prayers of many.

How de we know that it is not a form of persecution.Look at all the persecution Paul went through in the verse above.No one was ever sick back then?

do you think sickness is of the devil?

I mean where does opposition to the church come from?

tv wofers are always rebuking spirits of infirmities at Christians.

I mean if we are the church,then sickness could be labeled a form of persecution?

Personally I think most illness,is because of these corrupt bodies.But it proves a point.

[GreatistheLord]

why?

8We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about the hardships we suffered in the province of Asia. We were under great pressure, far beyond our ability to endure, so that we despaired even of life. 9Indeed, in our hearts we felt the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead. 10He has delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us. On him we have set our hope that he will continue to deliver us, 11as you help us by your prayers. Then many will give thanks on our behalf for the gracious favor granted us in answer to the prayers of many.

How de we know that it is not a form of persecution.Look at all the persecution Paul went through in the verse above.No one was ever sick back then?

do you think sickness is of the devil?

I mean where does opposition to the church come from?

tv wofers are always rebuking spirits of infirmities.

I mean if we are the church,then sickness could be labeled persecution,,

Sickness is a result of the curse. Jesus destroyed the power of the curse in the believer. It is not automatically ours until we receive it by faith. The devil is a thief and needs to be actively rebuked by the believer. Knowing this truth is not enough. Jas 5:15, Jas 1.

If sickness was true persecution from God, we would be wrong to be free from it. Going to the doctor would be sin. But not all suffering or persecution is God's will either.

[JimfromOhio]

Sickness is a result of the curse. Jesus destroyed the power of the curse in the believer. It is not automatically ours until we receive it by faith. The devil is a thief and needs to be actively rebuked by the believer. Knowing this truth is not enough. Jas 5:15, Jas 1.

If sickness was true persecution from God, we would be wrong to be free from it. Going to the doctor would be sin. But not all suffering or persecution is God's will either.

In the sense that all sickness is linked to sin, because if there were no sin, there would be no sickness AND DEATH. This SINFUL world do NOT discriminate between believers and unbelievers. Plane crashes, boat sinkings, train accidents, car collisions, heart disease, cancer doesn't discriminate between a sinner and a saint, or between a sinner and a sinner. People got sick, hurt, disabled and even DIED.
1. The gospel is good news about our sin problem, not our sicknesses (Rom. 3:23; 6:23).
2. Christ’s atonement focuses primarily upon our sins (iniquities), not our sicknesses (Lev. 16:1-34; Is. 53:5-6, 11-12; 1 Pet. 2:24).
3. Christ died for our sins, not our sicknesses (1 Cor. 15:3).
4. Christ was made sin, not sickness (2 Cor. 5:21).
5. Christ forgave our sins, not our sicknesses (1 John 2:12).
6. Christ gave Himself for our sins, not our sickness (Gal. 1:4).
7. Our bodies are corruptible and thus subject to sickness (1 Cor. 15:42-44).
8. We will all die physically (Heb. 9:27).

[pinetree]

Sickness is a result of the curse. Jesus destroyed the power of the curse in the believer. It is not automatically ours until we receive it by faith. The devil is a thief and needs to be actively rebuked by the believer. Knowing this truth is not enough. Jas 5:15, Jas 1.

If sickness was true persecution from God, we would be wrong to be free from it. Going to the doctor would be sin. But not all suffering or persecution is God's will either.

If salvation was that our physical bodies,now on the earth were perfect,illness free,why do we still decay?

sickness,decay,what is the difference?

It is dead.Our hope is our future ressurected body,not this one.:)

[GreatistheLord]

Ageing is not the same process as the curse. I can be free from the curse and still develop wrinkles. I still look older as time passes. A born again child, does not still look like a child when they are 90.

[pinetree]

Ageing is not the same process as the curse. I can be free from the curse and still develop wrinkles. I still look older as time passes. A born again child, does not still look like a child when they are 90.

Romans 8:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&verse=21&version=31&context=verse)
that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

also


51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

also,as in all die in and because of Adam,it does seem to indicate that decay is from sin and death,the curse.