What do you think of this?

[Jimbeaux]

When Roy DeLamotte was chaplain at Paine College in Georgia, he preached the shortest sermon in the college's history. However, he had a rather long topic:

"What would Christ Answer When We Ask, "Lord, What's in Christianity for Me?"

The complete sermon was in one word:

"Nothing."

~Jim

The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.

[map4]

I don't know...depends on how you look at the question...

obviously it is being asked as "what can I get out of Christianity", in a selfish way. which of course is the wrong way to look at anything. We shouldn't do anything for selfish reasons. If that is the way we look at Christianity then maybe there is nothing for us. It is not to satisfy our selfish desires.

But, if asked sincerely, "what's in it for me'...then...what about Jesus?

[Optimax]

Eternal Life

[NewSong]

If I had heard that sermon, I would have said, "OH I AM MADE IN HIS LIKENESS --very selfish." I guess you know that tripped a trigger in me. LOL So like what is new?

[Balance]

When Roy DeLamotte was chaplain at Paine College in Georgia, he preached the shortest sermon in the college's history. However, he had a rather long topic:

"What would Christ Answer When We Ask, "Lord, What's in Christianity for Me?"


The complete sermon was in one word:
"Nothing."


~Jim

The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.



What do I think of that?

If nothing was added to that - Roy Delmonte either has never read Scripture or is a complete moron.

That's what I think.

[Optimax]

What do I think of that?

If nothing was added to that - Roy Delmonte either has never read Scripture or is a complete moron.

That's what I think.


I agree.

I was being "nice" when I said eternal life.

Jesus didn't die for himself but for us.

Consider me selfish if you want but I appreciate it and receive it.

[JimfromOhio]

When Roy DeLamotte was chaplain at Paine College in Georgia, he preached the shortest sermon in the college's history. However, he had a rather long topic:


"What would Christ Answer When We Ask, "Lord, What's in Christianity for Me?"


The complete sermon was in one word:


"Nothing."


~Jim


The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.


The question he is saying is: What's in it (Christianity) for me? Our self-interest motives conduct even though it is part of our fallen nature, the cross is a symbol of the selfless which he came to conclusion: "NOTHING".

The Christian faith is meant to be lived moment by moment by looking forward to our eternal inheritance will help us maintain a proper perspective on temporal things and motivate us to praise and adore God.

I love this quote:
"Christianity without discipleship is always Christianity without Christ." Dietrich Bonhoeffer

[ARBITER01]

When Roy DeLamotte was chaplain at Paine College in Georgia, he preached the shortest sermon in the college's history. However, he had a rather long topic:


"What would Christ Answer When We Ask, "Lord, What's in Christianity for Me?"


The complete sermon was in one word:


"Nothing."


~Jim


The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.




He was exactly right. We are not to exist, we are to conform to the image of HIS Son, and that requires sanctification ie death to self,...


John 15:13 (ASV) Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.


Want to show the love of GOD? Crucify the flesh so GOD can do those works through you that HE did through Jesus.

[Balance]

I agree.

I was being "nice" when I said eternal life.

Jesus didn't die for himself but for us.

Consider me selfish if you want but I appreciate it and receive it.

I'm sorry if you think I referring to your post - I was just giving my opinion as the OP asked for.

For a man who is supposedly a 'Chaplain' to make such an audacious comment is beyond my belief -

I would ask this bozo:

Is Grace for God or man?

Is Mercy for God or man?

Is forgiveness for God or man?

Is the leading of the Holy Spirit for God or for man?

Is the dwelling of the SAME Spirit that raised Christ from the dead, dwelling in our mortal bodies for God or for man?

Is the joy unspeakable and full of glory for God or for man?

Is the peace that passes understanding, that guards our hearts in Christ for God or for man?

Like I said - if that was the only thing the man said - I'd rather listen to a donkey braying in a tin barn.

[JimfromOhio]

What do I think of that?

If nothing was added to that - Roy Delmonte either has never read Scripture or is a complete moron.

That's what I think.

Philippians 3:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=3&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ.

Nothing in this world is the object of the Christian's desires.

[JimfromOhio]

He was exactly right. We are not to exist, we are to conform to the image of HIS Son, and that requires sanctification ie death to self,...



Want to show the love of GOD? Crucify the flesh so GOD can do those works through you that HE did through Jesus.

Yep. :thumbsup:

The new Covenant is sealed in the blood of Jesus, Who is our Savior and Mediator, brought us together with His Grace and Mercy that we have great spiritual and eternal freedom. The Old Testament priests, sacrifices, and sanctuary are superseded by the mediation of Jesus, the crucified, risen, and reigning God-man (Heb. 1-10), in whom believers now find their identity as the seed of Abraham and the people of God (Gal. 3:29; 1 Pet. 2:4-10)

[Balance]

Philippians 3:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=3&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ.
Nothing in this world is the object of the Christian's desires.

Yeah, Paul is talking about gaining nothing - huh?

[ARBITER01]

Philippians 3:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=3&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ.

Nothing in this world is the object of the Christian's desires.

You caught onto his message, now watch who has trouble with it.

[Optimax]

All these "spiritual" answers are ..............


Wake up people. Jesus died to reconcile us to God which keeps us out of hell.

[Balance]

IMO - false humility is false teaching and produces nothing but guilt -

[JimfromOhio]

I'm sorry if you think I referring to your post - I was just giving my opinion as the OP asked for.

For a man who is supposedly a 'Chaplain' to make such an audacious comment is beyond my belief -

I would ask this bozo:

Is Grace for God or man?

Is Mercy for God or man?

Is forgiveness for God or man?

Is the leading of the Holy Spirit for God or for man?

Is the dwelling of the SAME Spirit that raised Christ from the dead, dwelling in our mortal bodies for God or for man?

Is the joy unspeakable and full of glory for God or for man?

Is the peace that passes understanding, that guards our hearts in Christ for God or for man?

Like I said - if that was the only thing the man said - I'd rather listen to a donkey braying in a tin barn.



2 Corinthians 12:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=12&verse=1&version=31&context=verse)
[ Paul's Vision and His Thorn ] I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord.

[JimfromOhio]

Yeah, Paul is talking about gaining nothing - huh?
Galatians 6:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=6&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.

[JimfromOhio]

All these "spiritual" answers are ..............


Wake up people. Jesus died to reconcile us to God which keeps us out of hell.
Christ through His death and resurrection, every legal hindrance has been met and satisfied. There is NOTHING in this world that can replace God's blessings. I believe that Jesus and the Word of God are SUFFICIENT for life and godliness. (2 Peter 1:3-9) and the Holy Spirit provided me the principles and guidelines to live a life of godliness.:thumbsup:

[Optimax]

I'm sorry if you think I referring to your post - I was just giving my opinion as the OP asked for.

Like I said - if that was the only thing the man said - I'd rather listen to a donkey braying in a tin barn.


I didn't think that at all. I went back and added the "I agree" so that you would know I was agreeing with you.

Love the donkey braying in a tin barn.
Hadn't heard that saying for a while.

I have great respect for the man that coined that saying.

[JimfromOhio]

IMO - false humility is false teaching and produces nothing but guilt -



Guilt by association?

[map4]

So Paul can say that he gains Christ...but we can't?

[JimfromOhio]

So Paul can say that he gains Christ...but we can't?
No, Paul is saying we gain even if we get NOTHING in this world. Gain means eternal.

[Balance]

Guilt by association?

Definitely - one person starts that false teaching on humility and people who don't know better think it sounds religious, so it must be true.

It just takes a little poison at a time to kill slowly.

[map4]

Philippians 3:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=3&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ.

Nothing in this world is the object of the Christian's desires.

No, Paul is saying we gain even if we get NOTHING in this world. Gain means eternal.


Who was saying anything different?

We gain Christ...no one said anything about things of this world.

[ARBITER01]

Definitely - one person starts that false teaching on humility and people who don't know better think it sounds religious, so it must be true.

It just takes a little poison at a time to kill slowly.


Interesting.

What are you referencing as false humility in our posts?

[JimfromOhio]

Definitely - one person starts that false teaching on humility and people who don't know better think it sounds religious, so it must be true.

It just takes a little poison at a time to kill slowly.

How much more should an average Christian have a clear understanding about the doctrine of nothing? Nothing basically means this world (earth) because earth is nothing like Heaven.

God is asking Christians to surrender their own selfish little kingdom and look on His eternal Kingdom. No matter "what" a person have, the key is knowing "WHO" you are "inside" as Christ see you as you are eternally (spiritually).

[JimfromOhio]

Who was saying anything different?

We gain Christ...no one said anything about things of this world.

In this world, we are to arm ourselves spiritually to wrestle against the world, the devil and the flesh. We are in the world of self-deceit that we are too focused on ourselves to see the eternal truth.

The world is no longer my master and that I am an overcomer because of the Holy Spirit that is within me. That’s the definition of a Christian. That's a mark of a true follower of Jesus Christ James wrote it clear that God's grace is amply sufficient to enable us to live a godly life and to keep ourselves "from being polluted by the world" (Jas 1:27).

Romans 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. As long as we are making efforts to live in holiness, then God is very pleased.
Christians have a dual citizenship however earth is a sinful place while Heaven is beautiful and sinless that we are to remember that we are citizens of heaven even though we live in a foreign world. We CAN'T live here on earth as we will in Heaven. we are in Christ His position is our position, His privilege is our privilege, His possessions are our possessions, and His practice our practice. We are significant not because of who we are, but because of who we are in Christ. As Paul said, "By the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10).

A Christian life in this world should be different from the world, being in the world but not of the world.

[Balance]

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg32/bbblankenmyer/Smilies/Combative%20Smilies/swordfight.gif

yah! - thrust - perry, dodge - deflect -

But never, never admit the other side might have a point -

Romans 16:17 Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them.

I think that even goes for those that think they have the only doctrine that's right -

So now I have two on ignore - no sense in wasting my time.

[Balance]

Interesting.

What are you referencing as false humility in our posts?

It is false humility and taking God's Name in vain to be a Christian - a child of God, an heir and joint heir with Christ and say things that would prevent you like living like one.

Does that help?

[ARBITER01]

In this world, we are to arm ourselves spiritually to wrestle against the world, the devil and the flesh. We are in the world of self-deceit that we are too focused on ourselves to see the eternal truth.

The world is no longer my master and that I am an overcomer because of the Holy Spirit that is within me. That’s the definition of a Christian. That's a mark of a true follower of Jesus Christ James wrote it clear that God's grace is amply sufficient to enable us to live a godly life and to keep ourselves "from being polluted by the world" (Jas 1:27).

Romans 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. As long as we are making efforts to live in holiness, then God is very pleased.
Christians have a dual citizenship however earth is a sinful place while Heaven is beautiful and sinless that we are to remember that we are citizens of heaven even though we live in a foreign world. We CAN'T live here on earth as we will in Heaven. we are in Christ His position is our position, His privilege is our privilege, His possessions are our possessions, and His practice our practice. We are significant not because of who we are, but because of who we are in Christ. As Paul said, "By the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10).

A Christian life in this world should be different from the world, being in the world but not of the world.


Notice who was easily provoked by the simple message that you get nothing from Christianity?

You haven't said anything that wasn't in the bible, yet balance doesn't want to hear it?!? Quite intereting.

[Balance]

Notice who was easily provoked by the FALSE message that you get nothing from Christianity?

You haven't said anything that wasn't in the bible, yet balance doesn't want to hear it?!? Quite intereting.

Corrected.

But you are right - I don't want to hear false teaching - it's poison.

[ARBITER01]

It is false humility and taking God's Name in vain to be a Christian - a child of God, an heir and joint heir with Christ and say things that would prevent you like living like one.

Does that help?


Not really.

Our duty is to die to self once we are born again, not live it out like the world and encourage it's growth.

The old man is to die and stay dead each day, just like Paul said. There is nothing false in that since the bible discusses it in multiple places, and it was the very example Jesus gave us to follow if we were one of His, as well as Paul followed.

[ARBITER01]

Corrected.

But you are right - I don't want to hear false teaching - it's poison.




You can be in denial all you wish balance, but there is nothing false about dieing to self unless you just want to find a way to refuse doing it.

[Balance]

Not really.

Our duty is to die to self once we are born again, not live it out like the world and encourage it's growth.

The old man is to die and stay dead each day, just like Paul said. There is nothing false in that since the bible discusses it in multiple places, and it was the very example Jesus gave us to follow if we were one of His, as well as Paul followed.

Agreed -

And once dead to self - we live in this world as Christ did.

John said it best.

17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. 19 We love Him because He first loved us.

Christians are just that - Christians -

Not sinners
Not scum
Not weak
Not 'trying to get close to God'

Those are descriptions of people who are not saved.

The old man's dead and gone - the Gift of Righteousness has been received - I have a spotless relationship with Almighty God, not because of anything I did - but what Jesus did for me.



God's the one who calls me the Righteousness of God in Christ



God's the one that calls me complete in Him



God's the one who removed my sin and cast them into the sea of forgetfullness.
God's the One who sanctifies me through His Holy Spirit
God's the One who made my body a temple of the Holy Ghost
God's the One who made my spirit and His Spirit One spirit.
God's the One who heals my Body
God's the One who has blessed me.
God's the One who calls me beloved
God's the One who fills me with all the fullness of Himself
God's the one who never leaves me nor forsakes me.
God's the one who supplies all my needs according to His riches and Glory in Christ.
God is the One who seated me in heavenly places in Christ.

And God is the One who does expect me to live any lower than where He wants me to be.

This reality keep a person truly humble, because it shows everything I have, is because of God.

God didn't call you into His Covenant of Father/Son to live like a sinner.

[ARBITER01]

17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. 19 We love Him because He first loved us.


Let's take a look at this in it's context,...


1Jn 4:15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

1Jn 4:16 And we have known and have believed the love which God has in us. God is love, and the one abiding in love abides in God, and God in him.

1Jn 4:17 By this, love has been perfected with us, that we have confidence in the day of judgment, that as He is, we are also in this world.

1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment; and the one fearing has not been perfected in love.
I just started back at the 15th verse, but the overwhelming subject is love, not worldly wealth or anything else in this section.

I don't know where you got the idea that the subject would change from love to personal wealth.

[Balance]

I don't know where you got the idea that the subject would change from love to personal wealth, but you just misused scripture to justify your stance balance, and you should know better than that by now.

I have NO CLUE how you could take what I posted below and say I was talking about personal wealth?????



Agreed -

And once dead to self - we live in this world as Christ did.

John said it best.

17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. 19 We love Him because He first loved us.

Christians are just that - Christians -

Not sinners
Not scum
Not weak
Not 'trying to get close to God'

Those are descriptions of people who are not saved.

The old man's dead and gone - the Gift of Righteousness has been received - I have a spotless relationship with Almighty God, not because of anything I did - but what Jesus did for me.



God's the one who calls me the Righteousness of God in Christ



God's the one that calls me complete in Him



God's the one who removed my sin and cast them into the sea of forgetfullness.
God's the One who sanctifies me through His Holy Spirit
God's the One who made my body a temple of the Holy Ghost
God's the One who made my spirit and His Spirit One spirit.
God's the One who heals my Body
God's the One who has blessed me.
God's the One who calls me beloved
God's the One who fills me with all the fullness of Himself
God's the one who never leaves me nor forsakes me.
God's the one who supplies all my needs according to His riches and Glory in Christ.
God is the One who seated me in heavenly places in Christ.

And God is the One who does expect me to live any lower than where He wants me to be.

This reality keep a person truly humble, because it shows everything I have, is because of God.

God didn't call you into His Covenant of Father/Son to live like a sinner.

[ARBITER01]

I have NO CLUE how you could take what I posted below and say I was talking about personal wealth?????

Then why would you be upset if someone says you gain nothing out of Christianity, and then you turn around and say: "God didn't call you into His Covenant of Father/Son to live like a sinner."

What do you mean by such a statement? Jesus lived like a sinner.

I have no problem with such a statement saying I gain nothing because I understand the scripture standards he was talking about when he made it, so why would you have a problem with it?

[Balance]

Then why would you be upset if someone says you gain nothing out of Christianity, and then you turn around and say: "God didn't call you into His Covenant of Father/Son to live like a sinner."

What do you mean by such a statement? Jesus lived like a sinner.

No - Jesus did not live like a sinner - and after accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour, having my sins cast into the sea of forgetfulness - I don't live like a sinner either. We're called to be imitators of Christ.

I have no problem with such a statement saying I gain nothing because I understand the scripture standards he was talking about when he made it, so why would you have a problem with it?

Because I view it as a false teaching - to say I gain nothing is to completely ignore what the Word of God says I did gain - note below.

All those I gained because of Jesus.




The old man's dead and gone - the Gift of Righteousness has been received - I have a spotless relationship with Almighty God, not because of anything I did - but what Jesus did for me.



God's the one who calls me the Righteousness of God in Christ



God's the one that calls me complete in Him



God's the one who removed my sin and cast them into the sea of forgetfullness.
God's the One who sanctifies me through His Holy Spirit
God's the One who made my body a temple of the Holy Ghost
God's the One who made my spirit and His Spirit One spirit.
God's the One who heals my Body
God's the One who has blessed me.
God's the One who calls me beloved
God's the One who fills me with all the fullness of Himself
God's the one who never leaves me nor forsakes me.
God's the one who supplies all my needs according to His riches and Glory in Christ.
God is the One who seated me in heavenly places in Christ.

And God is the One who does expect me to live any lower than where He wants me to be.

This reality keep a person truly humble, because it shows everything I have, is because of God.

God didn't call you into His Covenant of Father/Son to live like a sinner.



You honestly don't see those as gain?

[ARBITER01]

Because I view it as a false teaching - to say I gain nothing is to completely ignore what the Word of God says I did gain - note below.

All those I gained because of Jesus.





You honestly don't see those as gain?


Yes Jesus did live like a sinner. He had nothing to His name at all, whatsoever. He was not rich nor even remotely middle class by our standards. The accounts are there for all the read.

And no, you did not gain anything, because it is no longer you who lives. You most likely misunderstood what the person was saying.

[Balance]

Yes Jesus did live like a sinner.

A sinner is a person who sins - are you saying Jesus sinned? I hope not.



And no, you did not gain anything, because it is no longer you who lives. You most likely misunderstood what the person was saying.

Well, that's where our opinion differs.

Tell you what - you live as though you have gained nothing, and I'll live as though I've gained everything. And we'll both meet one day in heaven.

[Elijah2]

“Do not let anyone who delights in false humility, (other spiritual experiences) and the worship of angels (by false teachers) disqualify you for the prize (as we run our race). Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions (words and beliefs).” (Col. 2:18)

“Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship (trying to impress others and to gain God’s favour through), their false (self-made) humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence(that restrains their ability and heart).” (Col. 2:23)

The hardest of all things is to focus on our own humility or the lack of it, rather than trying to evaluate everyone else’s humility, whether it’s genuine or false)!

We all try to do good things, and the enemy will always try to go one better and make a counterfeit of it. The enemy will always attempt to distort genuine humility, or provide an imitation through false encouragement and praise.

Arrogance, pride and self-exaltation are an example an example false humility.

False humility is used to impress others. And many attempt to “impress” God and others through “head knowledge”.

Genuine humility always puts our Lord Jesus Christ first, and directs any attention away from you toward HIM.

We see of false humility in many of the high-flying TV evangelists.

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

[ARBITER01]

Well, that's where our opinion differs.

Tell you what - you live as though you have gained nothing, and I'll live as though I've gained everything. And we'll both meet one day in heaven.




Jesus had nothing to His name, and lived poorly, so yes, He lived like a sinner of His days. Additionally, He would be absolutely poor by todays standard also. You are the one that made the comment, I'm just correcting it. By all 4 accounts, Jesus did live like a sinner of His day, and probably worse. You can dream all you like about Him living like some king riding in a chariot to Jerusalem, but there is no account of it.

I'll tell you what I'll do balance,... I stop living so HE can live through me and do as HE pleases, and you can continue to live and receive your reward down here.

Yes, we will meet one day in heaven, and only then will our true riches be granted from GOD.

[Jimbeaux]

What do I think of that?

If nothing was added to that - Roy Delmonte either has never read Scripture or is a complete moron.

That's what I think.


Think?

You are so disappointingly predictable, B.

~Jim
The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.

[Catherineanne]

When Roy DeLamotte was chaplain at Paine College in Georgia, he preached the shortest sermon in the college's history. However, he had a rather long topic:


"What would Christ Answer When We Ask, "Lord, What's in Christianity for Me?"


The complete sermon was in one word:


"Nothing."


~Jim


The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.



What an interesting thing to say. I hope you don't mind a comment from a passing Anglo Catholic. :wave::kiss:

I must admit my own answer, if I had to choose one word, would have been 'love', or 'Christ', which are, of course, synonymous.

To substitute either of those with 'nothing' would seem not to reflect the Christian faith, nor the efficacy of Christ's Incarnation. And if all that Christianity is, is for God rather than us, then what does that make God?

Sadly, this seems to be verging on Narcissist God theism, which will in general be the choice of those who are rather more narcissistic than otherwise themselves. It is God created in the image of man.

However, each to his own.

Peace. :wave:

[Jimbeaux]

IMO - false humility is false teaching and produces nothing but guilt -




Just as real conceit is false teaching and produces nothing but "every evil work."

~Jim
The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.

[Balance]

Think?

You are so disappointingly predictable, B.

~Jim
The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.



So help me understand this -

You open a thread entitled:

What do you THINK of this.


I then answer the question, by posting what I THINK of it.

And instead of offering a rebuttal, or asking a question, you decide to once again make this personal and condescending INSTEAD of staying on the topic and not the person.


I think if we can just stick to the subject of the OPs, we can avoid a lot of closed threads.

Right?

~Jim


QFT

[Catherineanne]

How much more should an average Christian have a clear understanding about the doctrine of nothing? Nothing basically means this world (earth) because earth is nothing like Heaven.

God is asking Christians to surrender their own selfish little kingdom and look on His eternal Kingdom. No matter "what" a person have, the key is knowing "WHO" you are "inside" as Christ see you as you are eternally (spiritually).

Can I check that I understand what you are saying? :confused:

I think you are saying that the word 'nothing' does not mean nothing at all, but rather 'nothing in this world but everything in eternity'?

What dictionary would I use to check the accuracy of this semantic construct, and would all those hearing the speaker have understood this as you clearly do, or would they be using Standard English, where nothing actually means nothing at all, either here or hereafter?

I can see that according to your semantic construct, the quoted 'sermon' has meaning, of a kind. But what kind of communication is possible if we deconstruct the meaning of perfectly ordinary, well understood words, before we start, and then condemn anyone who does not interpret it in the same way as we do? Surely that is crazymaking behaviour? :confused:

[JimfromOhio]

Can I check that I understand what you are saying? :confused:

I think you are saying that the word 'nothing' does not mean nothing at all, but rather 'nothing in this world but everything in eternity'?

What dictionary would I use to check the accuracy of this semantic construct, and would all those hearing the speaker have understood this as you clearly do, or would they be using Standard English, where nothing actually means nothing at all, either here or hereafter?

I can see that according to your semantic construct, the quoted 'sermon' has meaning, of a kind. But what kind of communication is possible if we deconstruct the meaning of perfectly ordinary, well understood words, before we start, and then condemn anyone who does not interpret it in the same way as we do? Surely that is crazymaking behaviour? :confused:
Nothing in Scripture indicates the church should lure people to Christ by presenting Christianity as an attractive option. Nor is the gospel meant to be attractive in the sense of modern marketing. Christianity has been drawn away from true revival and is being seduced by those who advocate the popularization of Christianity through other means. Just look on TV, you see how and what they do to make Christianity look attractive without really saying anything what God expects from us. Especially WOF's ministries. The philosophy that comes with marketing technique with church growth theory is the result of bad theology by supplying delivering good news gospel. This often leads to false salvation by placing on "human decision", rather than a radical transformation of the heart the Holy Spirit's convicting work and the truth of His Word.

[Catherineanne]

Nothing in Scripture indicates the church should lure people to Christ by presenting Christianity as an attractive option. Nor is the gospel meant to be attractive in the sense of modern marketing. Christianity has been drawn away from true revival and is being seduced by those who advocate the popularization of Christianity through other means. Just look on TV, you see how and what they do to make Christianity look attractive without really saying anything what God expects from us. Especially WOF's ministries. The philosophy that comes with marketing technique with church growth theory is the result of bad theology by supplying delivering good news gospel. This often leads to false salvation by placing on "human decision", rather than a radical transformation of the heart the Holy Spirit's convicting work and the truth of His Word.

K. Lets assume for the sake of argument, and to save a lot of time, that I accept all of that, and I can see that the so called prosperity gospel is not everyone's cup of tea - neither yours nor mine.

Does this then actually equate to Christianity offering us 'nothing'? I assume it is really a kind of hyperbole for effect?

Christianity is an attractive option. It gives meaning to life which has no meaning, it gives sense to the senseless, and it gives identity to those who would otherwise be dispossessed by society. But perhaps to many this would be nothing, because they would be looking for financial stability, physical health, home and family etc? Is that what you mean?

If so, perhaps I am beginning to see what is meant, even if it is not anywhere near how I would have said it. :)

I am not trying to debate. I am only seeking to understand. :wave:

[JimfromOhio]

K. Lets assume for the sake of argument, and to save a lot of time, that I accept all of that, and I can see that the so called prosperity gospel is not everyone's cup of tea - neither yours nor mine.

Does this then actually equate to Christianity offering us 'nothing'? I assume it is really a kind of hyperbole for effect?

Christianity is an attractive option. It gives meaning to life which has no meaning, it gives sense to the senseless, and it gives identity to those who would otherwise be dispossessed by society. But perhaps to many this would be nothing, because they would be looking for financial stability, physical health, home and family etc? Is that what you mean?

If so, perhaps I am beginning to see what is meant, even if it is not anywhere near how I would have said it. :)

I am not trying to debate. I am only seeking to understand. :wave:
No problem. Today's Christianity is not what it used to be. Often "attractiveness blinds people".

[ARBITER01]

Nothing in Scripture indicates the church should lure people to Christ by presenting Christianity as an attractive option. Nor is the gospel meant to be attractive in the sense of modern marketing. Christianity has been drawn away from true revival and is being seduced by those who advocate the popularization of Christianity through other means. Just look on TV, you see how and what they do to make Christianity look attractive without really saying anything what God expects from us. Especially WOF's ministries. The philosophy that comes with marketing technique with church growth theory is the result of bad theology by supplying delivering good news gospel. This often leads to false salvation by placing on "human decision", rather than a radical transformation of the heart the Holy Spirit's convicting work and the truth of His Word.

Amen, very well said!

[lovesblessing]

When Roy DeLamotte was chaplain at Paine College in Georgia, he preached the shortest sermon in the college's history. However, he had a rather long topic:


"What would Christ Answer When We Ask, "Lord, What's in Christianity for Me?"


The complete sermon was in one word:


"Nothing."


~Jim


The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.



I THINK it's too bad that the preacher didn't preach about Jesus and Who He is and what He has done and how wonderful He is.....how much He loves us........maybe then someone would have found the truth......instead of the preacher's preconcieved ideas.

[Jimbeaux]

I THINK it's too bad that the preacher didn't preach about Jesus and Who He is and what He has done and how wonderful He is.....how much He loves us........maybe then someone would have found the truth......instead of the preacher's preconcieved ideas.


There were times when Jesus preached and didn’t say a word. Matt. 27.14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=14&version=50&context=verse)

~Jim
The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.

[Catherineanne]

No problem. Today's Christianity is not what it used to be. Often "attractiveness blinds people".

It is intriguing to find that, although your theology and mine have very many differences of expression, here we seem to meet.

In Catholic terms, we might say that a Christian is called to take up his cross and follow Christ, even if it means following him to death. Unlikely in this day and age, but not for us to write off, even if God is more merciful than to lead us to martyrdom.

And yes, to such thinking, presenting Christianity as the solution to every problem and the answer to every question, rather than as a very difficult, very demanding, way of life, is misleading to say the least.

I doubt if we will ever see eye to eye on everything (and the world would be far duller if we did), but at least I understand now. I still don't like the one word sermon, which to me says far less than it could. But I can see why some would appreciate the corrective that it contains.

Off for tea and biscuits >>>>>>>>>>

Peace and long life. :wave:

[Catherineanne]

There were times when Jesus preached and didn’t say a word. Matt. 27.14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=14&version=50&context=verse)

~Jim

The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.



St Francis of Assisi:

Preach the gospel at all times. If absolutely necessary, use words.

:D

[dkbwarrior]

Can I check that I understand what you are saying?

I think you are saying that the word 'nothing' does not mean nothing at all, but rather 'nothing in this world but everything in eternity'?

What dictionary would I use to check the accuracy of this semantic construct, and would all those hearing the speaker have understood this as you clearly do, or would they be using Standard English, where nothing actually means nothing at all, either here or hereafter?

I can see that according to your semantic construct, the quoted 'sermon' has meaning, of a kind. But what kind of communication is possible if we deconstruct the meaning of perfectly ordinary, well understood words, before we start, and then condemn anyone who does not interpret it in the same way as we do? Surely that is crazymaking behaviour?

You now understand why we have a debate subforum. There is a small but vocal group here that construct huge semantical glass houses by misrepresenting what others believe, while redefining the meaning of words and equating circumstance as truth rather than scripture as truth.

The buildings they create often look like truth, because their appearance mirrors what we can see with our eyes and hear with our ears in the fallen world around us, but that is also their flaw. They are only a reflection of the law of sin and death at work in the world, not a reflection of the law of the Sprit of life in Christ Jesus.

They are simply deception clothed in a veneer of godliness.

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

You now understand why we have a debate subforum. There is a small but vocal group here that construct huge semantical glass houses by misrepresenting what others believe, while redefining the meaning of words and equating circumstance as truth rather than scripture as truth.

The buildings they create often look like truth, because their appearance mirrors what we can see with our eyes and hear with our ears in the fallen world around us, but that is also their flaw. They are only a reflection of the law of sin and death at work in the world, not a reflection of the law of the Sprit of life in Christ Jesus.

They are simply deception clothed in a veneer of godliness.

Peace...
Since the days of reformation, many have been "redefining the meaning of words" of our Scriptures. This truth comes through practicing the discipline of careful reading of the Bible, seeking to find the author's intended meaning (Ephesians 3:4) and its implications for the issues we are facing today. The role of the Holy Spirit is not to add anything to the text but to make the readers' heart humble so that we will welcome and embrace the truth and act upon it (1 Corinthians 2:14).

[dkbwarrior]

Nothing in Scripture indicates the church should lure people to Christ by presenting Christianity as an attractive option.


19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
-1 Corinthians 9:19-22




Nor is the gospel meant to be attractive in the sense of modern marketing. Christianity has been drawn away from true revival and is being seduced by those who advocate the popularization of Christianity through other means. Just look on TV, you see how and what they do to make Christianity look attractive without really saying anything what God expects from us. Especially WOF's ministries.


While there may be a certain amount of factual reality to your statement here, I think you have the wrong attitude about it. You should be rejoicing, as Paul did.

12But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel;
13So that my bonds in Christ are manifest in all the palace, and in all other places;
14And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.
15Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
18What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
-Phillippians 1:12-18




The philosophy that comes with marketing technique with church growth theory is the result of bad theology by supplying delivering good news gospel.


Bad theology is good news gospel? I thought the gospel was good news? Isn't that like saying I don't want gasoline if its petroleum? Or I don't want water if its H2O? Isn't it the goodness of God that leads one to repentance?

4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
-Romans 2:4

If one came to God due to any thing other than His goodness, then I would have to doubt that they are serving the same God that I am. They might call Him by the same name, but if their God is not good, then their God is not God.

We love Him because He first loved us.




This often leads to false salvation by placing on "human decision", rather than a radical transformation of the heart the Holy Spirit's convicting work and the truth of His Word.


What!?! :confused:

I disagree. The Holy Spirit does not transform hearts without the invitation (choice) of the person. That is what we call free will. The choice is ours, but the power is all Gods.

You seem to be saying that the choice and the power are Gods. You are mistaken.

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

You seem to be saying that the choice and the power are Gods. You are mistaken.

Peace...

I know you are mistaken because you can't seem to answer my question (in another thread) relating to THIS quote you have made.

What are the Holy Spirit's role in part of man's salvation? (hint: hearing the gospel)

[map4]

It is intriguing to find that, although your theology and mine have very many differences of expression, here we seem to meet.

In Catholic terms, we might say that a Christian is called to take up his cross and follow Christ, even if it means following him to death. Unlikely in this day and age, but not for us to write off, even if God is more merciful than to lead us to martyrdom.

And yes, to such thinking, presenting Christianity as the solution to every problem and the answer to every question, rather than as a very difficult, very demanding, way of life, is misleading to say the least.

I doubt if we will ever see eye to eye on everything (and the world would be far duller if we did), but at least I understand now. I still don't like the one word sermon, which to me says far less than it could. But I can see why some would appreciate the corrective that it contains.

Off for tea and biscuits >>>>>>>>>>

Peace and long life. :wave:


But, isn't Jesus the solution to every problem and the answer to every queston? Nobody said life will be easy. And becoming a Christian does not mean you will never have another problem and that life is a bed of roses. In some ways, for me, it has become more difficult. The difference is, I now have hope where I didn't before. We have Jesus now. Why would we not show people that hope. Didn't Jesus tell us to preach that and show people the hope we have in Him? Preach the good news of the Gospel?

----------------------------------------
To me, saying that we 'get nothing' out of Christianity diminishes Jesus and what He did. Sure, tell people it is not that we get anything for selfish reasons. That we are not Christians 'to get what we want, to fulfill our desires'. Because that is not what Christianity is.

Why are we even called Christians? Doesn't Christianity mean a loving God who sent His Son to earth to become a sacrifice for mankind? So that, through Him we can have eternal life with Him? Jesus came to save us. To point the way to the Father. To lead us to Him. To give us access to the Father through His shed blood. He gives us life. He paid a huge price to do that. So, it is not about us but about Him. About the life He lives through us.

Do we really want to take that lightly by saying we 'get nothing' when He gave everything for us?

[JimfromOhio]

19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
-1 Corinthians 9:19-22





While there may be a certain amount of factual reality to your statement here, I think you have the wrong attitude about it. You should be rejoicing, as Paul did.

12But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel;
13So that my bonds in Christ are manifest in all the palace, and in all other places;
14And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.
15Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
18What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
-Phillippians 1:12-18





Bad theology is good news gospel? I thought the gospel was good news? Isn't that like saying I don't want gasoline if its petroleum? Or I don't want water if its H2O? Isn't it the goodness of God that leads one to repentance?

4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
-Romans 2:4

If one came to God due to any thing other than His goodness, then I would have to doubt that they are serving the same God that I am. They might call Him by the same name, but if their God is not good, then their God is not God.

We love Him because He first loved us.





What!?! :confused:

I disagree. The Holy Spirit does not transform hearts without the invitation (choice) of the person. That is what we call free will. The choice is ours, but the power is all Gods.

You seem to be saying that the choice and the power are Gods. You are mistaken.

Peace...
Because reading your post again, I don't see you mentioning Holy Spirit.

Jesus said in John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

[JimfromOhio]

Do we really want to take that lightly by saying we 'get nothing' when He gave everything for us?

Everything means eternal which actually means to many, nothing. Eternal does not mean a thing to many people. They want things NOW. :wave:

[dkbwarrior]

Preach the good news of the Gospel?


Unless of course, the good news Gospel is bad theology.

:doh:

Peace...

[map4]

But, isn't Jesus the solution to every problem and the answer to every queston? Nobody said life will be easy. And becoming a Christian does not mean you will never have another problem and that life is a bed of roses. In some ways, for me, it has become more difficult. The difference is, I now have hope where I didn't before. We have Jesus now. Why would we not show people that hope. Didn't Jesus tell us to preach that and show people the hope we have in Him? Preach the good news of the Gospel?

----------------------------------------
To me, saying that we 'get nothing' out of Christianity diminishes Jesus and what He did. Sure, tell people it is not that we get anything for selfish reasons. That we are not Christians 'to get what we want, to fulfill our desires'. Because that is not what Christianity is.

Why are we even called Christians? Doesn't Christianity mean a loving God who sent His Son to earth to become a sacrifice for mankind? So that, through Him we can have eternal life with Him? Jesus came to save us. To point the way to the Father. To lead us to Him. To give us access to the Father through His shed blood. He gives us life. He paid a huge price to do that. So, it is not about us but about Him. About the life He lives through us.

Do we really want to take that lightly by saying we 'get nothing' when He gave everything for us?

Everything means eternal which actually means to many, nothing. Eternal does not mean a thing to many people. They want things NOW. :wave:


Is that what you understood my post to say?? :confused:

[JimfromOhio]

Is that what you understood my post to say?? :confused:
Tell me your "definition" of "everything". You icon told me something else. ;)

[dkbwarrior]

Everything means eternal which actually means to many, nothing. Eternal does not mean a thing to many people. They want things NOW.

Actually, I think this describes your side of the debate rather well. You expect it now, and if you don't get it now, then you want to redefine your doctrine to accomodate your circumstance. In other words, "If I don't get it now, that must mean God doesn't want me to have it", even if the scriptures plainly say it is Gods will. Instead, you will simply privately re-interpret the scripture to fit your circumstance.

WOF, on the other hand, teaches that faith and patience wait for the promise of God. Abraham waited 25 years for the manifestation of the promised heir. He didn't explain away the promise of God, because it didn't happen right away. He was strong in faith, giving glory to God.

Supersovereignity teaches us to believe the circumstance that one can see, rather than the promise of God. This is called idolatry, and it displeases God greatly.

Wof teaches us to believe the promise of God rather than the circumstance that we can see. This is called faith, and it pleases God greatly.

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

Unless of course, the good news Gospel is bad theology.

:doh:

Peace...

Depends on man's doctrine of "good news Gospel".

2 Corinthians 11:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=11&verse=4&version=31&context=verse)
For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

Galatians 1:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=1&verse=6&version=31&context=verse)
[ No Other Gospel ] I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel. (without use of grace)

[JimfromOhio]

Actually, I think this describes your side of the debate rather well. You want it now, and if you don't get it now, then you want to redefine your doctrine to accomodate your experiance. In other words, "If I don't get it now, that must mean God doesn't want me to have it", even if the scriptures plainly say it is Gods will. Instead, you will simply privately re-interpret the scripture to fit your circumstance.

WOF, on the other hand, teaches that faith and patience wait for the promise of God. Abraham waited 25 years for the manifestation of the promised heir. He didn't explain away the promise of God, because it didn't happen right away. He was strong in faith, giving glory to God.

Supersovereignity teaches us to believe the circumstance that one can see, rather than the promise of God. This is called idolatry, and it displeases God greatly.

Wof teaches us to believe the promise of God rather than the circumstance that we can see. This is called faith, and it pleases God greatly.

Peace...

This comes to my question since you brought this up AGAIN. Why can't you answer my question regarding the Holy Spirit's role in a person's salvation?

[dkbwarrior]

This comes to my question since you brought this up AGAIN. Why can't you answer my question regarding the Holy Spirit's role in a person's salvation?

If you care to ask the question precisely I would love to answer it.

I still don't know what you are asking, and I gave up trying to answer the questions that I think you are asking quite some time ago, because I apparently don't understand what it is that you are asking most of the time.

I am a very good communicator, so I tend to think that this is more a problem of your explaining what you want, than my being able to understand. But I could be wrong.

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

If you care to ask the question precisely I would love to answer it.

I still don't know what you are asking, and I gave up trying to answer the questions that I think you are asking quite some time ago, because I apparently don't understand what it is that you are asking most of the time.

I am a very good communicator, so I tend to think that this is more a problem of your explaining what you want, than my being able to understand. But I could be wrong.

Peace...

Wait a minute. One of the Holy Spirit's role is teaching us and you don't really know God (Holy Spirit)?

[map4]

Tell me your "definition" of "everything". You icon told me something else. ;)


Everything to me is Jesus. Period.

See what I mean about reading what I say though what you think I mean because of an icon? Did you even try to read my heart in what I said?

I said nothing about physical healing.
I said nothing about having material things or wealth.
I said nothing about anything except Jesus, because of what He did giving us eternal life with the Father. Paying a huge price for something I don't deserve.
And, while I am still in this physical body, He is my hope. No matter what comes my way, I have hope in Him. He is what gets me through this life. That is not wanting things NOW, it is living in Him. Knowing that I can't do anything without Him. Relying on the Holy Spirit to teach me and show me what I need to make it through. And to help others know the same thing by telling them about the good news of the gospel. That they can have hope in Jesus even in the most difficult circumstances.

It is not about what I can get, Jim. It is about Jesus.

[JimfromOhio]

Everything to me is Jesus. Period.

See what I mean about reading what I say though what you think I mean because of an icon? Did you even try to read my heart in what I said?

I said nothing about physical healing.
I said nothing about having material things or wealth.
I said nothing about anything except Jesus, because of what He did giving us eternal life with the Father. Paying a huge price for something I don't deserve.
And, while I am still in this physical body, He is my hope. No matter what comes my way, I have hope in Him. He is what gets me through this life. That is not wanting things NOW, it is living in Him. Knowing that I can't do anything without Him. Relying on the Holy Spirit to teach me and show me what I need to make it through. And to help others know the same thing by telling them about the good news of the gospel. That they can have hope in Jesus even in the most difficult circumstances.

It is not about what I can get, Jim. It is about Jesus.

How about forgetting what WOF teaches and focus on what the Bible (Jesus) says about 'eternal life'. John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of My hand."

Titus 1:2 that said "a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time."

That's what true Christianity is all about. :thumbsup:

[dkbwarrior]

I still don't know what you are asking...



Wait a minute. One of the Holy Spirit's role is teaching us and you don't really know God (Holy Spirit)?


I said that I don't know what you are asking, and you translate that to mean I don't know God (Holy Spirit)? :doh:

And you wonder why I don't understand what you're saying?

You do realize don't you, that everyone reading these threads are likely of equal intelligence with us? The more you dissemble, the less credibility you have.

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

I said that I don't know what you are asking, and you translate that to mean I don't know God (Holy Spirit)? :doh:

And you wonder why I don't understand what you're saying?

You do realize don't you, that everyone reading these threads are likely of equal intelligence with us? The more you dissemble, the less credibility you have.

Peace...
I will make it simple for ya.

1 Thessalonians 1:5 "because our gospel came to you not simply with words (hearing the gospel), but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake."

Jesus in John 6:29 "The work of God is this: to believe in the one He has sent."

Jesus said again in John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

People have learned that they "took credit" for almost everything they achieved, even their own salvation (by making "the choice). That is why the Apostle Paul wrote, “Your salvation is nothing you have achieved by your good works. It is a gift of God. You receive it by faith. That way no one can boast of his own accomplishments.”

Its not about choice BUT about conviction.

The Holy Spirit convicts a sinner to be saved when they "hear" the gospel.

[map4]

Everything to me is Jesus. Period.

See what I mean about reading what I say though what you think I mean because of an icon? Did you even try to read my heart in what I said?

I said nothing about physical healing.
I said nothing about having material things or wealth.
I said nothing about anything except Jesus, because of what He did giving us eternal life with the Father. Paying a huge price for something I don't deserve.
And, while I am still in this physical body, He is my hope. No matter what comes my way, I have hope in Him. He is what gets me through this life. That is not wanting things NOW, it is living in Him. Knowing that I can't do anything without Him. Relying on the Holy Spirit to teach me and show me what I need to make it through. And to help others know the same thing by telling them about the good news of the gospel. That they can have hope in Jesus even in the most difficult circumstances.

It is not about what I can get, Jim. It is about Jesus.

How about forgetting what WOF teaches and focus on what the Bible (Jesus) says about 'eternal life'. John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of My hand."

Titus 1:2 that said "a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time."

That's what true Christianity is all about. :thumbsup:


Jim, where did I focus on anything except our eternal life He gives????

Did you not see me say that nothing matters except that eternal life that He paid a huge price to purchase for us????

It's not about wealth, or healing or anything else except HIM!!!!

Our hope in this life is the hope of eternal life we have because of Jesus.
While we are still in this physical body, in this fallen world, He is what gets us through. Faith in Him...His love, His grace, His mercy. Period. Everything else is immaterial to me. Nothing matters except Jesus.

Should I copy and paste all your posts where you say the same thing :P

[JimfromOhio]

Jim, where did I focus on anything except our eternal life He gives????

Did you not see me say that nothing matters except that eternal life that He paid a huge price to purchase for us????

It's not about wealth, or healing or anything else except HIM!!!!

Our hope in this life is the hope of eternal life we have because of Jesus.
While we are still in this physical body, in this fallen world, He is what gets us through. Faith in Him...His love, His grace, His mercy. Period. Everything else is immaterial to me. Nothing matters except Jesus.

Should I copy and paste all your posts where you say the same thing :P

Then you will agree to go against WOF's teachings?

[dkbwarrior]

I will make it simple for ya.

1 Thessalonians 1:5 "because our gospel came to you not simply with words (hearing the gospel), but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake."

Jesus in John 6:29 "The work of God is this: to believe in the one He has sent."

Jesus said again in John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

People have learned that they "took credit" for almost everything they achieved, even their own salvation (by making "the choice). That is why the Apostle Paul wrote, “Your salvation is nothing you have achieved by your good works. It is a gift of God. You receive it by faith. That way no one can boast of his own accomplishments.”

Its not about choice BUT about conviction.

The Holy Spirit convicts a sinner to be saved when they "hear" the gospel.

I agree, except with the thought that people "take credit" for their own salvation by making "the choice".

I made "the choice", but I have never thought this means that I then "take credit" for my own salvation. I was saved by what Christ did when He redeemed me on the cross. All I did was accept it.

So though I agree with you, I don't have the foggiest idea what you are getting at.

Its like you are saying, "Answer my question, answer my question, answer my question." Then, "I'll make it simple for you, the sky is blue!" "There, take that you heathen!"

Okay, and.............:doh:

What is your point?

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

I agree, except with the thought that people "take credit" for their own salvation by making "the choice".

I made "the choice", but I have never thought this means that I then "take credit" for my own salvation. I was saved by what Christ did when He redeemed me on the cross. All I did was accept it.

So though I agree with you, I don't have the foggiest idea what you are getting at.

Its like you are saying, "Answer my question, answer my question, answer my question." Then, "I'll make it simple for you, the sky is blue!" "There, take that you heathen!"

Okay, and.............:doh:

What is your point?

Peace...
Word of Faith's defintion of Faith in terms of "getting" something (i.e. healed) contradicts the Word of God. That's my point.

[dkbwarrior]

Word of Faith's defintion of Faith in terms of "getting" something (i.e. healed) contradicts the Word of God. That's my point.

It may contradict the glass house of semantical constructs that you call a doctrine, but it seems that you have forgotten what the Word of God actually says.

Let me remind you:

22And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
23For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
24Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
-Mark 11:22-25

6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
James 1:6-8

23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)
-Hebrews 10:23

14Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
-James 5:14-15

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

It may contradict the glass house of semantical constructs that you call a doctrine, but it seems that you have forgotten what the Word of God actually says.

Let me remind you:

22And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
23For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
24Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
-Mark 11:22-25

6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
James 1:6-8

23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)
-Hebrews 10:23

14Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
-James 5:14-15

Peace...
Faith without wavering with grace or without grace?

My faith is strong and never waver however to others they "think" my faith wavered. Grace is a wonderful gift that God has given us. Even when I wanted to be healed and NOT healed, through God's grace, He applies to me everything I need:

1. To save us- We were saved by grace, (Ephesians 2) through faith, but it is God's grace that just initiates there and sustains all the way, every benefit in life, every benefit in eternity is by God's grace.

2. To keep us - Jesus is my Shephard who keeps me safe, John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of My hand." How can anyone who saved get snatched out of His hand and lose salvation unless a person is not saved in the first place? Even when I (my flesh) fails?

3. To enable us- James wrote it clear that God's grace is amply sufficient to enable us to live a godly life and to keep ourselves "from being polluted by the world" (Jas 1:27).

4. To deliver us- Christ's death is deliverance from sin and reconciliation with God. (ETERNAL LIFE)

5. To sanctify us - God has given us the grace to sanctify us. The sources of "thorns" can be weaknesses, insults, distresses, persecutions and difficulties (which also includes sickness). God told Paul "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me."

6. To keep our faith strong - For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. (1 John 5:4)

I have more but I think you get the idea (I hope).

[Balance]

Word of Faith's defintion of Faith in terms of "getting" something (i.e. healed) contradicts the Word of God. That's my point.


Prove it - cite a source - include a link -

Either prove it or retract it.

[JimfromOhio]

Prove it - cite a source - include a link -

Either prove it or retract it.



http://www.rhema.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=19&Itemid=22

Source: Kenneth Hagin Ministries

[JimfromOhio]

Another site:
Another site I learned from: Word of Faith Answers (Defending Word of Faith Doctrines) http://wordoffaithanswers.com/default.aspx

One thing I remember from Victoryword's quote about Seminary, he called them "cemetary". Seminary is all about doctrines. ;)

[Balance]

http://www.rhema.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=19&Itemid=22

Source: Kenneth Hagin Ministries

A link with a dozen or so different articles is not showing the DOCTRINAL statement proving your point -

Please do some research, find the doctrinal statement that proves Word of Faith's position on faith is 'gettin something'. And how it contradicts the Word of God - Because the article on faith in your link is not doing that. There are five different article on faith - which one are you referring to - what specifically do you not agree with??

Cite the source or retract the accusation.

[JimfromOhio]

A link with a dozen or so different articles is not showing the DOCTRINAL statement proving your point -

Please do some research, find the doctrinal statement that proves Word of Faith's position on faith is 'gettin something'. And how it contradicts the Word of God - Because the article on faith in your link is not doing that. There are five different article on faith - which one are you referring to - what specifically do you not agree with??

Cite the source or retract the accusation.

I am looking for Victoryword's link because I deleted the bookmark. He talks about them alot in his site. I can use his site to link to.

[dkbwarrior]

I am looking for Victoryword's link because I deleted the bookmark. He talks about them alot in his site. I can use his site to link to.

Let me help you out with that:

VictoryWordMinistries (http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com/)

His site is one of the best WOF apologitics sites I have ever had the fortune of studying. Alot of great material there.

Peace...

[dkbwarrior]

Another site:
Another site I learned from: Word of Faith Answers (Defending Word of Faith Doctrines) http://wordoffaithanswers.com/default.aspx

One thing I remember from Victoryword's quote about Seminary, he called them "cemetary". Seminary is all about doctrines. ;)

Thats funny. :D

Good name for many of them. Of course their are some good ones too. But I am certain he is not referring to those, but rather the ones that have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof.

Thanx for the link though, I'll check it out.

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

Let me help you out with that:

VictoryWordMinistries (http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com/)

His site is one of the best WOF apologitics sites I have ever had the fortune of studying. Alot of great material there.

Peace...

I know which proves my point. :thumbsup:

[dkbwarrior]

I know which proves my point. :thumbsup:
What point?

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

What point?

Peace...
I am sure you will figure that out very soon.

[Catherineanne]

You now understand why we have a debate subforum. There is a small but vocal group here that construct huge semantical glass houses by misrepresenting what others believe, while redefining the meaning of words and equating circumstance as truth rather than scripture as truth.

I think this is a sin that many, if not all, Christians are prone to from time to time. :D And as we cannot change others, however much they do this, the best we can do is laugh at them, and search our own hearts.


The buildings they create often look like truth, because their appearance mirrors what we can see with our eyes and hear with our ears in the fallen world around us, but that is also their flaw. They are only a reflection of the law of sin and death at work in the world, not a reflection of the law of the Sprit of life in Christ Jesus.

They are simply deception clothed in a veneer of godliness.

Peace...

Is that what you see when you look at your brothers and sisters in Christ? :confused:

I have never seen deception clothed in godliness. I have either seen Godliness, or else fallen humanity. But never a mixture of the two.

[Catherineanne]

Since the days of reformation, many have been "redefining the meaning of words" of our Scriptures. This truth comes through practicing the discipline of careful reading of the Bible, seeking to find the author's intended meaning (Ephesians 3:4) and its implications for the issues we are facing today. The role of the Holy Spirit is not to add anything to the text but to make the readers' heart humble so that we will welcome and embrace the truth and act upon it (1 Corinthians 2:14).


All of which is so much straw in the wind without love. :)

[Catherineanne]

But, isn't Jesus the solution to every problem and the answer to every queston?

Of course not. :D

He is the person who walks beside us while we decide the answer to questions, and he may give us help to find solutions, but he himself is not the answer to every question. Only to some. :)

Mind you, it would make winning a Christian quiz show very easy, wouldn't it? :D

[Catherineanne]

How about forgetting what WOF teaches and focus on what the Bible (Jesus) says about 'eternal life'. John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of My hand."

Titus 1:2 that said "a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time."

That's what true Christianity is all about. :thumbsup:

More straw in the wind, signifying nothing. NB 'nothing' here meaning nothing whatever, here or hereafter.

:)

[dkbwarrior]

You now understand why we have a debate subforum. There is a small but vocal group here that construct huge semantical glass houses by misrepresenting what others believe, while redefining the meaning of words and equating circumstance as truth rather than scripture as truth.

The buildings they create often look like truth, because their appearance mirrors what we can see with our eyes and hear with our ears in the fallen world around us, but that is also their flaw. They are only a reflection of the law of sin and death at work in the world, not a reflection of the law of the Sprit of life in Christ Jesus.

They are simply deception clothed in a veneer of godliness.




Is that what you see when you look at your brothers and sisters in Christ? :confused:

I have never seen deception clothed in godliness. I have either seen Godliness, or else fallen humanity. But never a mixture of the two.


I was not referring to the persons, but to the huge semantical glass houses (metaphorically intended to mean doctrines) they create based on the aforementioned faulty data.

My reference to a veneer of godliness was a play on words from 1 Timothy 3:5 (Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof...) as well as Jesus reference to a whitewashed tomb that looks good on the outside but is full of dead mens bones. I did not state that it was deception clothed in godliness, but rather deception clothed in a veneer of godliness; mabey I should have stuck with form, but I thought the relationship was close enough.

I apologize for the impreciseness of my speech.

Peace...

[Leimeng]

How about forgetting what WOF teaches and focus on what the Bible (Jesus) says about 'eternal life'. John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of My hand."

Titus 1:2 that said "a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time."

That's what true Christianity is all about. :thumbsup:

~ How about focusing on what people are actually saying and what the Bible says instead of your obvious mis-conceptions about what they and some doctrine called "Word of Faith" teaches?
~ Guess what, since you may or may not have noticed, a lot of people here say things about a lot of topics and you automatically accuse them of being WoF or getting their teachings from WoF. In case you have not noticed, good teaching from the Word of God is good no matter if it is Word of Faith or Anglican or Independent Baptist or whatever name you want to be called.
~ Really, on some topics you are dead on. On other topics you sound like a record (vinyl type) with a skip in it or a movie with a continual loop.
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Peace,

Leimeng

Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~

[Catherineanne]

I was not referring to the persons, but to the huge semantical glass houses (metaphorically intended to mean doctrines) they create based on the aforementioned faulty data.

I have seen something of that, but I find it rather more entertaining than aggravating. Can such a person actually change the meaning of words? :D

My reference to a veneer of godliness was a play on words from 1 Timothy 3:5 (Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof...) as well as Jesus reference to a whitewashed tomb that looks good on the outside but is full of dead mens bones. I did not state that it was deception clothed in godliness, but rather deception clothed in a veneer of godliness; mabey I should have stuck with form, but I thought the relationship was close enough.

I apologize for the impreciseness of my speech.

Peace...

But why worry? Their relationship with God is their concern. They sound very unpleasant, and I think I would not waste my time even talking to them, were I to encounter such a person.

What works for me is the thought that holiness cannot be defiled, and that God does not need me to defend him in any way. He defends me, day by day and minute by minute. Makes for a rather more peaceful life, I think.

[map4]

Of course not. :D

He is the person who walks beside us while we decide the answer to questions, and he may give us help to find solutions, but he himself is not the answer to every question. Only to some. :)

Mind you, it would make winning a Christian quiz show very easy, wouldn't it? :D

Hey, I'm all for making things easy!! :D

Yeah, I should have clarified what I meant.