If you want to post about fesitvals...

[angrylittlefisherman]

IF you want to post about festivals and whether or not they are a good thing do it here and not in the thread entitled "I'M LOSING MY FAITH" !!

Here is what I think about festivals. My church host two of them to raise money for St Micheal's Orthodox School. One is a Celtic Fair and one is a harvest fair, no alcohol is served, gluttony is not encouraged or even really made possible. Food is priced to raise money for the school. The parents and children from the school come, the kids in my parish have bluegrass band (and they are awesome) they play, people in the community (including protestants and Catholics come) everyone has a good time, and there usually is a talk given by a priest on some subject (the Celtic Church for example). Everyone has a good time, some money is raised, God is always thanked and honored. Fundraisers are not evil unless we make them so. I hope this has settled this, it is so silly.

[Chesterton]

Here's a non-Orthodox POV of festivals: I attended a Greek Orthodox festival once as a child. Purely fun and games. The festival location was a Greek church I now sometimes attend as an adult inquirer some 30 years later, and I have a memory of the festival. The point: maybe it's a coincidence, maybe it's not, but I would be very reluctant to intentionally find fault with anything, no matter how obstensibly crass, which might lead someone Home. Remember that the Lord uses bread and wine, material things which some wrong-thinking persons view as vulgar or crass, for our spiritual benefit.

[Matrona]

I like festivals. I've seen many people introduced to the faith because of them. As long as the festival doesn't reinforce the notion that Orthodoxy is a cute cultural museum piece, they should be fine. I enjoy going on the church tours even though I'm already Orthodox. :D

[Philothei]

IF you want to post about festivals and whether or not they are a good thing do it here and not in the thread entitled "I'M LOSING MY FAITH" !!


Yes that was out of hand... and thank you for doing this thread....



Here is what I think about festivals. My church host two of them to raise money for St Micheal's Orthodox School. One is a Celtic Fair and one is a harvest fair, no alcohol is served, gluttony is not encouraged or even really made possible. Food is priced to raise money for the school. The parents and children from the school come, the kids in my parish have bluegrass band (and they are awesome) they play, people in the community (including protestants and Catholics come) everyone has a good time, and there usually is a talk given by a priest on some subject (the Celtic Church for example). Everyone has a good time, some money is raised, God is always thanked and honored. Fundraisers are not evil unless we make them so. I hope this has settled this, it is so silly.
[/QUOTE]

I respect your view. Many are well intented and I have no problem with them as long as they"

_do not become the church's focus all year through
-do not have lottery
-do not sell boose
-do not make a profit that is over half of the parish budget ...that is the whole parish bills/expences are more than 50% dependent on the festival for money and the parish is BIG....
-there are tours and exhibits for religious and cultural reasons
-are not run by "proffesional" restauranters who overprize with the profit ONLY in mind... but also what the regular folk can afford.

-also there has to be allocation of that profit to charity at least 10% like a tithing (some churches do that BTW I have seen it)....
I can come up with more....

oh...it cannot replace... stewardship. People in parishes got to pay up their bills not expect the community at large pay their bills...

Festivals are "fun" for the guests... not the ones who work hard in the kitchen for 5 months to cook all the food.
Festivals become a "cruch" (spelling?) for parishes who do not give stewardship
Festivals are bad examples of having someone else paying your bills ....and worse you teach the young to "work" and "cook" your way to have a Church which is wrong... The "kids" of today will not want to keep up that tradition and will leave... And rightly so since nowhere in the Orthodox Tradition it says that a community runs a "restaurant" style business once a year to survive finacilally. It is embarassing and foreign to our tradtion. Greek Hospitality has nothing to do with "making the buck" at the same time and it does give Greeks a bad name...

Religious and cultural nights or festivals would have been more apporopriate and less "time consuming" and can be twice as much spiritually beneficial... That large scale restaurant style festivals are harming our church rather than benefiting it...

[ClementofRome]

Locally, the Greek fest is held in the fall each year and is on the town square and is attended by all walks of life and faiths. I have no idea as to how much of their budget it takes in (I attend the local ACROD), but they also have a gyro booth at every fest the city has (and that would be several a year).

They have great food, dancing, music....sell BEER! They have a tent set aside for inquiry (as the Greek church is some distance away from the town square. The Fr is always around. They have a store that sells books and icons.

Long before I ever became an inquirer/catechumen, I loved the Greek Fest and went for years....maybe some of it rubbed off on me! ;)

Love it.

[Dorothea]

I've brought over a quote I wanted to answer without further disrupting the other thread.

Where I used to live, only 1 year ago, gyros were $4 and $5 at the two festivals I attended. $1 for a soda is no big deal...but this church just HAD to get that extra 50 cents.

Anyway, the food is always so good I could never eat for $10. :)
I know our price went up a dollar I believe because food prices went up so much this year, we had expenses we had to cover.

[angrylittlefisherman]

One of the purposes of the festivals that my church host are to provide alternative entertainment for its parishioners, so that they can have fun but have it in a place where honoring Christ is not forgotten.

[Philothei]

Locally, the Greek fest is held in the fall each year and is on the town square and is attended by all walks of life and faiths. I have no idea as to how much of their budget it takes in (I attend the local ACROD), but they also have a gyro booth at every fest the city has (and that would be several a year).

They have great food, dancing, music....sell BEER! They have a tent set aside for inquiry (as the Greek church is some distance away from the town square. The Fr is always around. They have a store that sells books and icons.

Long before I ever became an inquirer/catechumen, I loved the Greek Fest and went for years....maybe some of it rubbed off on me! ;)

Love it.


I would love to see you working the grill in a nice 95 degrre southern summer day in the south...:P:P:P...

As long as festivals do not become a cruch it is all for the glory of God... But unfortunately that is not the case for the most....:doh:

[Philothei]

I've brought over a quote I wanted to answer without further disrupting the other thread.


I know our price went up a dollar I believe because food prices went up so much this year, we had expenses we had to cover.

Dorothea do not take me wrong I am talking here making a 20,000 profits... But still if a small parish can go away with it the better. Fests are so much work and planning and they are a distraction to any community. Gatherings are different or even Greek nights... like they used to have in the old days....

[Philothei]

One of the purposes of the festivals that my church host are to provide alternative entertainment for its parishioners, so that they can have fun but have it in a place where honoring Christ is not forgotten.


That is not the point... Entertaintment is a seperate issue and festivals do not serve that purpose.... How can you have "entertainment" when you work in the kitchen in the middle of the heat? Is this the kind of entertaintment? I do not think so.

That is the wrong place to have "entertaintment" that is what the Greek tavernas are for... Sorry to disagree with you but celebrating the Greek independance day is enough for a reason to party. We do not need a "restaurant" style of entertainment... to remind us we need to "party". Again that can also be expressed in a Taverna style Greek night....How can you still maintain focus on Christ when you prepare for months cooking and baking for that specific 2-3 days where you will "act" as a restaurant?? That is loosing focus and concentrate on profit.

[Rindicella]

That is not the point... Entertaintment is a seperate issue and festivals do not serve that purpose.... How can you have "entertainment" when you work in the kitchen in the middle of the heat? Is this the kind of entertaintment? I do not think so.

That is the wrong place to have "entertaintment" that is what the Greek tavernas are for... Sorry to disagree with you but celebrating the Greek independance day is enough for a reason to party. We do not need a "restaurant" style of entertainment... to remind us we need to "party". Again that can also be expressed in a Taverna style Greek night....How can you still maintain focus on Christ when you prepare for months cooking and baking for that specific 2-3 days where you will "act" as a restaurant?? That is loosing focus and concentrate on profit.

I just want to say that in principle, I agree with you. A western example of this is St. Patrick's Day for the Irish. (The Irish consider themselves the
"Mediterraneans of the North"...LOL! My family is very "lace curtain Irish"). St. Patrick's day has become an excuse for drinking and drunkenness and it has no resemblance whatsoever to a feast day.

Although I can see both sides of this issue, I certainly understand and agree with your concerns. I've been involved with the Serbian diocese for several years, through friends, and family. They have a similar problem with Serbian festivals, and bingo nights. Additionally, they are finding out that renting out their church halls (not the church itself, but the social halls) for outsiders weddings is a problem too ....they have had numerous problems with damage, drunkenness on church property, etc.... The Serbs are also trying to figure this out. They have "Slava" festivals but these are generally only lightly attended by parish members...I've often wondered why they do not invite the public to the slavas but maybe I am not understanding it properly....it would seem like a slava would be a great replacement.

:cool1:

[Machachachi]

This might be some food for thought.

Luke 16

1Jesus told his disciples: "There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions. 2So he called him in and asked him, 'What is this I hear about you? Give an account of your management, because you cannot be manager any longer.' 3"The manager said to himself, 'What shall I do now? My master is taking away my job. I'm not strong enough to dig, and I'm ashamed to beg— 4I know what I'll do so that, when I lose my job here, people will welcome me into their houses.'
5"So he called in each one of his master's debtors. He asked the first, 'How much do you owe my master?'
6" 'Eight hundred gallons[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2016;&version=31;#fen-NIV-25619a)] of olive oil,' he replied.
"The manager told him, 'Take your bill, sit down quickly, and make it four hundred.'
7"Then he asked the second, 'And how much do you owe?'
" 'A thousand bushels[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2016;&version=31;#fen-NIV-25620b)] of wheat,' he replied.
"He told him, 'Take your bill and make it eight hundred.'
8"The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light. 9I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.

[angrylittlefisherman]

That is not the point... Entertaintment is a seperate issue and festivals do not serve that purpose.... How can you have "entertainment" when you work in the kitchen in the middle of the heat? Is this the kind of entertaintment? I do not think so.

That is the wrong place to have "entertaintment" that is what the Greek tavernas are for... Sorry to disagree with you but celebrating the Greek independance day is enough for a reason to party. We do not need a "restaurant" style of entertainment... to remind us we need to "party". Again that can also be expressed in a Taverna style Greek night....How can you still maintain focus on Christ when you prepare for months cooking and baking for that specific 2-3 days where you will "act" as a restaurant?? That is loosing focus and concentrate on profit.


I'm not entirely sure what exactly you are talking about. Let me clarify. My parish, Holy Dormition Orthodox Church, hosts two festivals a year. Both are also fundraisers for an Orthodox School. They provide entertainment for children and adults, games, folk music and folk dancing, I think people donate items for a silent auction. All profits go towards the school. Many of the participants are not Orthodox and they get an exposure to Orthodoxy. Part of the purpose of these festivals, as explained to me by my priest, is to provide fun family friendly, and most importantly entertainment that does not look like the world. No alcohol is served to avoid causing any Christian to stumble. The fathers at my church recognize that the we are all tempted, especially the kids, by the worlds forms of entertainment, rock concerts, movies of questionable content and other festivals that have little or nothing to do with the church and its responsibility to not look like the world. Because we are bombarded with so many sinful forms of entertainment, the priests decided that they wanted to provide them means to have fun under the supervision and authority of the Church. However this "fun" also has a purpose. The people who "slave away in the kitchen" do so joyfully and humbly because they see it as a service not only their parish, but to the community who attend, and to the school, which has many students who are not even Christians. In a way they are helping by baking a cake, or grilling tri tip, or building/painting the decorations to expose non Christians to the true faith.
Now I understand your frustrations you have with excessive spending or eating, with looking too much like the world, all of these reasons are why I left the protestant church. If you are concerned that your church is beginning to conform to the demands of the world I would recommend speaking with your SF or maybe your priests and deacons about this issue, if it cannot be resolved than maybe you need to consider looking for another parish.

[Philothei]

I'm not entirely sure what exactly you are talking about. Let me clarify. My parish, Holy Dormition Orthodox Church, hosts two festivals a year.

Okay so what is your point? I am against to such kind or "fund raisers" for parishes. That is my point.

Both are also fundraisers for an Orthodox School.
Now this is a different situation. As far as having fund raising for a school I do believe that schools are different though. They are not churches and they could ask for finacial support like fundraisers to keep those schools open.... It i snot the same as festivals that support paying their bills to operate instead of people paying stewardship.

They provide entertainment for children and adults, games, folk music and folk dancing, I think people donate items for a silent auction. All profits go towards the school.

Sure if it is for the benefit of the shcool I would understand this agains not for the Church...
I do not doubt the enterataintment aspect here.. This was not the topic though still...

Many of the participants are not Orthodox and they get an exposure to Orthodoxy.

Never denied that one of the benefits ARE the exposure of Orthodoxy....it seems you did not read my original post...here I think You need to go and read that I mention that. I do not agree with the "for profit" big scale festivals...
Part of the purpose of these festivals, as explained to me by my priest, is to provide fun family friendly, and most importantly entertainment that does not look like the world. No alcohol is served to avoid causing any Christian to stumble.
Sorry, but I disagree with your priests that is why churches have picnics and dances... people do not need festivals to "entertain" themselves.. I disagree with your priest.... Ask him if anywhere in any country people had festivals with secualar music and such in order to pay the priest's salary and their parish expenses...Also alchohol is on "sale" in many festivals ... I do not wish to embarass here but it does... I have seen it, so there ....

The fathers at my church recognize that the we are all tempted, especially the kids, by the worlds forms of entertainment, rock concerts, movies of questionable content and other festivals that have little or nothing to do with the church and its responsibility to not look like the world. Because we are bombarded with so many sinful forms of entertainment, the priests decided that they wanted to provide them means to have fun under

That is a straw man... if it is better than something else then it is justified kind of attitute....I already gave you the alternative of a Greek, Serbian, Russian night type of entertaintment ... No reason to have a festival... Also church picnics are for that purpose. People actually have more fun that way since they are small scalled and they participate more than slaving in the kitchen...

the supervision and authority of the Church. However this "fun" also has a purpose. The people who "slave away in the kitchen" do so joyfully and humbly because they see it as a service not only their parish, but to the community who attend,

How about giving some money instead and support their Church instead of their time that they could spend it praying and attending to their children's needs... and spend time with their families or socializing with one another or even visiting the shelters, the prisons, the sick? Hours spend preparing food they could go and visit a nursing home or people in prison... evangelizing about Christ and their Church that would be a much better example to our children than teaching them that we have to work hard to put up a fest ival to have others pay our bills.



and to the school, which has many students who are not even Christians. In a way they are helping by baking a cake, or grilling tri tip, or building/painting the decorations to expose non Christians to the true faith.

As I said before the school is different as it is not a church.....


Now I understand your frustrations you have with excessive spending or eating, with looking too much like the world, all of these reasons are why I left the protestant church. If you are concerned that your church is beginning to conform to the demands of the world I would recommend speaking with your SF or maybe your priests and deacons about this issue, if it cannot be resolved than maybe you need to consider looking for another parish.

I always had a problem with this issue. I do not like my church to be characterized as money making institution. I do not want to point the finger to others and that is not my concern. The Orthodox church never had such an outreach but the idea even of the Panygyris in Greece is a far cry from what is happening here. People would come together cook and eat. They did not sell "food" rather they gave it away to others.... Thanks for the advice about going to my spiritual father actually he agrees with me. And this is one of my Bishop's frustations with the large parishes... Esp. the lottery.... Now what has lottery to do with a church community? I have no frustations about my parish as it is based on stewardship and they do not plan on any festivals they are completely against them...:)




__________________

[ClementofRome]

I would love to see you working the grill in a nice 95 degrre southern summer day in the south...:P:P:P...

As long as festivals do not become a cruch it is all for the glory of God... But unfortunately that is not the case for the most....:doh:

I did say that ours is in the fall in the mountains!!! :)

However, we have a huge fest this weekend and the Greeks will work a booth there too....so yes, they will be HOT!

[Kristos]

I did say that ours is in the fall in the mountains!!! :)

Sweet!

[Protoevangel]

I pretty much agree with Philothei on this issue. The festivals aren't necessarily bad in and of themselves, but they can easily become more of a distraction and a drain, than an uplifting experience, for both the people putting it on, as well as for the community.

[Dorothea]

Dorothea do not take me wrong I am talking here making a 20,000 profits... But still if a small parish can go away with it the better. Fests are so much work and planning and they are a distraction to any community. Gatherings are different or even Greek nights... like they used to have in the old days....It is a lot of work, but apparently, the community here enjoys it and appreciates our fesvial each year. As I've said. They look forward to it every year like someone would the county fair. We also have had people stop in the church and watch and listen to Vespers service and ask questions about the church with genuine interest. Some showed up to the DL the next day. We are spreading the love of Christ also in sharing about our church. My priest said our success and the draw of people is all due to the Holy Spirit, through the Church, not our cooking.

[Philothei]

It is a lot of work, but apparently, the community here enjoys it and appreciates our fesvial each year. As I've said. They look forward to it every year like someone would the county fair.
And what a county fair has to do with an Orthodox Church? I understand that your church is smaller though Dorothea that was not what I am arguing here though...

We also have had people stop in the church and watch and listen to Vespers service and ask questions about the church with genuine interest. Some showed up to the DL the next day.
I do not doubt the benefits here either.... a small scale festival can do that too... We do not need huge 4 day festivals to "show our churches" and people to participate in liturgy and vespers...

We are spreading the love of Christ also in sharing about our church. My priest said our success and the draw of people is all due to the Holy Spirit, through the Church, not our cooking.


There are other means to spread the love of Christ ... and sharing our Church like going with our teens to soup kitchens and homelss centers. The presence of the Holy Spirit is another topic... I will not go there ....