Jerusalem Syndrome/Jewish Syndrome

[BenAdam]

There is a very well documented mental disorder called Jerusalem Syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Syndrome). In brief some people that visit Jerusalem experience religiously themed obsessions, delusions, or psychosis (people think they are either literal Bible characters or reincarnations, etc).

I have noted that a similar thing happens with some Christians, especially Spirit-Filled believers. They become Judiaized. They adopt Jewish ways of referring to the Bible, God, Jesus, etc.

Personally I love studying Jewish culture, food, history, etc. But some people nearly become Judized and Judizers. I know there are many around here that would defend this which is why I posted in debate forum.

I am interested in having a serious debate about this.

[pinetree]

There is a very well documented mental disorder called Jerusalem Syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Syndrome). In brief some people that visit Jerusalem experience religiously themed obsessions, delusions, or psychosis (people think they are either literal Bible characters or reincarnations, etc).

I have noted that a similar thing happens with some Christians, especially Spirit-Filled believers. They become Judiaized. They adopt Jewish ways of referring to the Bible, God, Jesus, etc.

Personally I love studying Jewish culture, food, history, etc. But some people nearly become Judized and Judizers. I know there are many around here that would defend this which is why I posted in debate forum.

I am interested in having a serious debate about this.
ya know I am glad you said this.I have noticed that too.I just thought that maybe they were converted Jews?

subscribing

[BenAdam]

I think one of the hallmarks of this kind of behaviour is the inevitable:
"The Bible is a Jewish Book, you have to undertand Judiaism/Jews/Jewishness to understand it." or some similar form.

[Tamara224]

Judaizers are those who, in the first century, began to teach that Gentile converts needed to be circumcised and taught to follow the Law of Moses. (See Acts 15).

Calling modern day Christians who adopt Jewish customs as part of their Christian experience "Judaizers" is inaccurate. Unless they are claiming that people must become Jews before they can be Christians, they are not really Judaizers.

For myself, I like Jewish customs better than the "western" ones. The symbolism of Passover, for example, is much more meaningful to me, as compared to the customs and traditions most western Christians practice on Easter.

So, I really think it's just a preference. We all follow traditions, customs, culture. Some people prefer Jewish and it helps them understand who Jesus was when he walked on the earth.


Regarding the Jerusalem Syndrom:

Every Christian I've ever talked to who has visited Jerusalem has described a "special presence" of God in that place. My parents talk about it, the pastor of the church I have begun attending talked about it too... in fact, they used almost identical words to describe it.

As far as the religiously themed obsessions... Isn't it rather likely that people prone to obsession were already obsessing about making a pilgrimage to Jerusalem and their obsession brought them there in the first place? And once they got there it culminated in delusions? Rather than that they were perfectly normal, well-adjusted people who turned into crazies because of Jerusalem?

And, finally, I think it's bad form to start talking about religiously themed obsessions as a lead in to talking about Christians who adopt Jewish eccentricities.

Pirates!:mad:


:holy:

[BenAdam]

Judaizers are those who, in the first century, began to teach that Gentile converts needed to be circumcised and taught to follow the Law of Moses. (See Acts 15).

Calling modern day Christians who adopt Jewish customs as part of their Christian experience "Judaizers" is inaccurate. Unless they are claiming that people must become Jews before they can be Christians, they are not really Judaizers.

I am specifically mentioning Judizers because that is what I'm talking about, not those (like yourself I'm sure ;)) that adopt a limited set of Jewish customs.

I have know some people to go so far as to adopt Jewish names, follow the Torah as much as possible believing (as the Galatians did) that it was "essential" to Christian Faith. I have even know one or two to dispense with Christianity altogether.


For myself, I like Jewish customs better than the "western" ones. The symbolism of Passover, for example, is much more meaningful to me, as compared to the customs and traditions most western Christians practice on Easter.

We have discussed this before. I love the symbolism of the Passover (far better than Easter Eggs and a ham), and have no issues with people that use it to teach about Jesus, but for the Jews it has a very different meaning and is a commandment to keep it.


So, I really think it's just a preference. We all follow traditions, customs, culture. Some people prefer Jewish and it helps them understand who Jesus was when he walked on the earth.

Preference is one thing, following the Torah and justifying it as important or necessary is another.


Regarding the Jerusalem Syndrom:

Every Christian I've ever talked to who has visited Jerusalem has described a "special presence" of God in that place. My parents talk about it, the pastor of the church I have begun attending talked about it too... in fact, they used almost identical words to describe it.

It is because of the association people have with it. I get all goose pimply when I got to Disney too. ;)


As far as the religiously themed obsessions... Isn't it rather likely that people prone to obsession were already obsessing about making a pilgrimage to Jerusalem and their obsession brought them there in the first place? And once they got there it culminated in delusions? Rather than that they were perfectly normal, well-adjusted people who turned into crazies because of Jerusalem?

But people don't go to Disney and start acting like Mickey Mouse or singing It's a Small World in near the same rate as those that visit Jerusalem (and to be fair it happens in places like Rome and Mecca as well), and there are some Disney obsessed people out there.


And, finally, I think it's bad form to start talking about religiously themed obsessions as a lead in to talking about Christians who adopt Jewish eccentricities.

Among P/C's it is by far the most common religious obsession.



Pirates!:mad:


:holy:

Keeping the world safe from Ninjas for over 400 years.

[Alpine]

I know exactly what you're talking about. I have noticed this as well.

I have a Jewish heritage and I do not practice any Jewish traditions. I have noticed that there are gentiles who are in love with Jewish traditions and culture and it becomes their identity. I've only seen this in evangelical circles, especially in charismatic circles. I actually think it's very weird.

I hope I didn't offend anyone, but that's how I feel.

Most non Orthodox Jews don't wear their Jewish identity on their sleeves. In fact, you would hardly know they are Jewish if not for their last name. A good example is my father, who attends a southern Baptist church. He doesn't wear his heritage on his sleeve. In fact, he's actually a little embarrassed about it.

If you are a gentile, why not just be a gentile? Why pretend to be something you're not? There's nothing wrong with it. We are one in Christ. That's all that matters. :)

[Tamara224]

I am specifically mentioning Judizers because that is what I'm talking about, not those (like yourself I'm sure ;)) that adopt a limited set of Jewish customs.

I have know some people to go so far as to adopt Jewish names, follow the Torah as much as possible believing (as the Galatians did) that it was "essential" to Christian Faith. I have even know one or two to dispense with Christianity altogether.


That's not what it seemed you were talking about in the OP. Adopting Jewish ways of referring to the Bible is a far cry from observing Torah.


We have discussed this before. I love the symbolism of the Passover (far better than Easter Eggs and a ham), and have no issues with people that use it to teach about Jesus, but for the Jews it has a very different meaning and is a commandment to keep it.

I disagree that it has a different meaning for the Jews. I just think Jews don't understand the full meaning of what they are doing.


Preference is one thing, following the Torah and justifying it as important or necessary is another.

Well, I guess my experience is different than yours. I haven't met any Spirit Filled believers who followed Torah. I've met many who enjoy a certain amount of Jewishness - celebrating Passover, buying prayer shawls, blowing shofars, etc. So, when I read your OP that's what I thought you were talking about.


It is because of the association people have with it. I get all goose pimply when I got to Disney too. ;)

No, I disagree. I think it's something more. Have you ever been there?

My mom described it to me as best she could, and she specifically told me that it's not like the goose bumps a person gets when they go to Mount Rushmore or something. She said it was the presence of God. And I believe that she knows what she's talking about.

But people don't go to Disney and start acting like Mickey Mouse or singing It's a Small World in near the same rate as those that visit Jerusalem (and to be fair it happens in places like Rome and Mecca as well), and there are some Disney obsessed people out there.

Disneyland is a very poor comparison. No one worships Mickey Mouse, no one clings to Mickey Mouse for salvation. No one follows the teaching of Mickey Mouse. No one believes Mickey Mouse can heal them or raise them from the dead. No one thinks that if they can walk in the footsteps of Mickey Mouse, they'll be closer to God.

Religious fervor is potent stuff. When was the last time someone strapped a bomb to his chest believing that Mickey Mouse would reward him in the afterlife?

Among P/C's it is by far the most common religious obsession.

Not in my experience. The most common religious obsession among P/C's in my experience is charismania.

Keeping the world safe from Ninjas for over 400 years.

:D

[BenAdam]

That's not what it seemed you were talking about in the OP. Adopting Jewish ways of referring to the Bible is a far cry from observing Torah.
Invariably it is a start though. Remember my cautioning you about it? We had a good discussion. I know many that observe a few customs and that is all. However I have known a few (including some here) that have gone off the deep end.


I disagree that it has a different meaning for the Jews. I just think Jews don't understand the full meaning of what they are doing.

Touche! I agree with you here, but it really does have an additional meaning. It involves the deliverence from Egypt. My ancestors were not delivered from Egypt and I will not celebrate that. I was delivered from the world and sin by Jesus and I will celebrate that!

Well, I guess my experience is different than yours. I haven't met any Spirit Filled believers who followed Torah. I've met many who enjoy a certain amount of Jewishness - celebrating Passover, buying prayer shawls, blowing shofars, etc. So, when I read your OP that's what I thought you were talking about.

That is because you live in the woods far from civilization!!!!!
I personally don't get the prayer shawl thing, or the shofar either. Symbols when the real thing is here. But hey, I'm have no issues with those that like them, just those that require them.



No, I disagree. I think it's something more. Have you ever been there?

I have been all over the place but never there sadly.

My mom described it to me as best she could, and she specifically told me that it's not like the goose bumps a person gets when they go to Mount Rushmore or something. She said it was the presence of God. And I believe that she knows what she's talking about.

With all due respect to your mother T (seriously, no joke) I would be no closer to God there than I would be at the North Pole, Death Valley, or Disneyland. He resides in me and I in Him. But that is only speaking for myself, not for anyone else.


Disneyland is a very poor comparison. No one worships Mickey Mouse, no one clings to Mickey Mouse for salvation. No one follows the teaching of Mickey Mouse. No one believes Mickey Mouse can heal them or raise them from the dead. No one thinks that if they can walk in the footsteps of Mickey Mouse, they'll be closer to God.

Religious fervor is potent stuff. When was the last time someone strapped a bomb to his chest believing that Mickey Mouse would reward him in the afterlife?
That is the point I'm making. Religious fervor affects even the most well adjusted people.


Not in my experience. The most common religious obsession among P/C's in my experience is charismania.

I wouldn't call that religious obsession, I would call that carnality.


:D


I thought this thread would be a good departure from the normal fare of WoF bashing. :)

[Tamara224]

Touche! I agree with you here, but it really does have an additional meaning. It involves the deliverence from Egypt. My ancestors were not delivered from Egypt and I will not celebrate that. I was delivered from the world and sin by Jesus and I will celebrate that!

Well... Paul told us that through Christ we become partakers of the Jewish heritage, we're grafted into their vine. So, it is our spiritual heritage in a very real sense, IMO.

In a spiritual sense, we all have been delivered from Egypt. That is the typology, after all - Egypt represents our bondage to sin. So, we celebrate that deliverance because it typifies our own deliverance.

It gives us a very poignant picture to help us understand and celebrate what Christ has done for us.

Besides, I don't have to be a blood-descendant of Jacob to celebrate what God did for his descendents. Just like I celebrate Independence Day even though I'm not the direct descendant of anyone who fought for American independence.


I have been all over the place but never there sadly.

With all due respect to your mother T (seriously, no joke) I would be no closer to God there than I would be at the North Pole, Death Valley, or Disneyland. He resides in me and I in Him. But that is only speaking for myself, not for anyone else.

She never said anything about being closer to God there than anywhere else. That wasn't what I meant.

But don't tell me that you've never felt the presence of God more strongly at some times in your life than at others. I won't believe you. God is everpresent, we all know that. But there are some times when He makes His presence felt and other times when He seems far away.

That is all I'm talking about. And it has been described to me as similar to feeling God's presence in worship but slightly different. That's the best they could do to explain it to me.

That is the point I'm making. Religious fervor affects even the most well adjusted people.

Well, I would argue that if they're well adjusted, they aren't swayed by religious fervor.

And my point is a cause and effect deal. Isn't it more likely that people already infected with religious fervor go to Jerusalem motivated by that fervor and when they get there it culminates in delusions? Rather than being completely unaffected by fervor and "catching it" in Jerusalem?

I wouldn't call that religious obsession, I would call that carnality.

Isn't that what religious obsession is, though? Carnality?

I thought this thread would be a good departure from the normal fare of WoF bashing. :)

And non-WoF bashing. ;)

[BenAdam]

I know exactly what you're talking about. I have noticed this as well.

I have a Jewish heritage and I do not practice any Jewish traditions. I have noticed that there are gentiles who are in love with Jewish traditions and culture and it becomes their identity. I've only seen this in evangelical circles, especially in charismatic circles. I actually think it's very weird.

I hope I didn't offend anyone, but that's how I feel.

Most non Orthodox Jews don't wear their Jewish identity on their sleeves. In fact, you would hardly know they are Jewish if not for their last name. A good example is my father, who attends a southern Baptist church. He doesn't wear his heritage on his sleeve. In fact, he's actually a little embarrassed about it.

If you are a gentile, why not just be a gentile? Why pretend to be something you're not? There's nothing wrong with it. We are one in Christ. That's all that matters. :)


Have you ever had anyone find out you have Jewish heritage and just go all weird on you about the things they think you practice?

[Balance]

The first church I attended after my Salvation was a Spirit filled/ Messianic congregation that was part of the Assemblies of God.

The Pastor was raised in an Orthodox Jewish home and when he received Christ, his parents actually had a funeral and buried him in effigy.

I was a member of the church and then on Administrative staff.

The foundations that his teachings on covenant have lasted me to this day and actually helped me appreciate what it means to be adopted by God - being grafted into the vine etc. etc.

In the last ten years or so there has been a re-surgance of what I think you are speaking of here in your OP.

Use of the shofar in worship, people in prayer shawls, adherence to Rabbinical laws and legends. All things that this messianic Jewish pastor strictly forbid in the church.

I personally do not mind some of these things, as long as it doesn't replace the reality of knowing God as we do in the New Covenant.

I think, like most everything else, it can be brought to excess, and draw us back into approaching God from an OT position and missing the reality of a NT Covenant.

Did you know, in the Jewish home in the first century, if your child did something that brought dishonor on the family name they could be dis-owned. Part of the ritual was to bring them to the city gate and announce that they were dead to you. The parents then held a wake and buried the child in effigy.

There was only ONE exception to the rule - you could not dis-own a child you had adopted.

Just something to think about.

[Alpine]

Have you ever had anyone find out you have Jewish heritage and just go all weird on you about the things they think you practice?

Oh yeah! If you have a Jewish heritage and are a Christian, you are kind of like a "celebrity" when people find out because it's kind of rare for jews to become Christians.

I've had people ask me if I keep kosher, if I celebrate the holidays, etc. There was an Assembly of God church I was attending a couple years ago that had a small Messianic ministry, led by some gentile believers. When they met together, they dressed up in some exotic garb and sang messianic oriented worship songs. I asked the leader what they were all about, since I was actually looking for a messianic type group. But the clothing kinda weirded me out for some reason. Seemed kind of like a costume party. Well, at least with the leader. :)

I actually don't mind when people ask me questions. American Christians have a very strong curiosity about Jewish believers, because Jewish believers are so rare. But, I think that curiousity is a good thing as compared to the alternative that Jews have experienced with Christians throughout history.

I think Balance's story about his pastor is a good example of a balanced Jewish leader. One who essentially doesn't go overboard with all the traditions and cultural stuff being brought into the church. This pastor certainly brought interesting insights into the church that the church would have otherwise not have heard because of his background.

[GreatistheLord]

Yes, I had brief celebrity status when I mentioned that I *could* be jewish. I had no idea that some people would befriend me after that. When I revealed that it was a possible, obscure familly tree connection that was probably nothing then it went back to normal.

Chaim 'rabbi' Goldsmith