Question about Creationism

[Brendan1000]

I know this is always a topic of some debate but I have a specific question.

While it says in the Bible that God created Adam and Eve, some Christians take this literally while others understand it from a symbolic nature.

Personally, my findings show me that evolution has happened in the physical sense but I have reasons to believe that it could not have happened on its own (i.e. I believe that God helped evolution progress). Specifically, I believe that survival of the fittest does a poor job of presenting new genetic material that is strictly "better" or "more advanced" than in previous generations.

I feel like God has given me a scientific mind - I'm pretty good at math and the like. I'm wondering if it makes me less of a Christian to believe that God wants me to come up with a rational explanation, which still involves His grace. I.e. is my "mixed" belief any less than the pure creationist belief?

[tapero]

I know this is always a topic of some debate but I have a specific question.

While it says in the Bible that God created Adam and Eve, some Christians take this literally while others understand it from a symbolic nature.

Personally, my findings show me that evolution has happened in the physical sense but I have reasons to believe that it could not have happened on its own (i.e. I believe that God helped evolution progress). Specifically, I believe that survival of the fittest does a poor job of presenting new genetic material that is strictly "better" or "more advanced" than in previous generations.

I feel like God has given me a scientific mind - I'm pretty good at math and the like. I'm wondering if it makes me less of a Christian to believe that God wants me to come up with a rational explanation, which still involves His grace. I.e. is my "mixed" belief any less than the pure creationist belief?

Hi. No.. It would not make you less of a Christian in any way shape or form.

Many Christians have different takes on creation, as well as many other things in the bible.

No Christian is a less of a Christian than another. Different understandings, and many other variables. We are one in Christ.

blessings,
tapero

[twistedsketch]

As long as you agree on what the creation story teaches about God and man, I think you're OK. Timelines are not as important as that.

[dead2self]

Being a literalist fundie, I of course take the Biblical creation account literally.

Before I answer, let me first state my background as an ardent supported of atheistic darwinian evolution. I too have what you might call a scientific, annalytical mind.

Now, as to whether this makes you less of a Christian. I do not think that is the proper question here. Either you are correct, or I am. The other would then simply be a Christian in need of more teaching. While we are all at different stages, there is no such a thing as a lesser Christian.

No my friend, I'm afraid the question is a little deeper, and a little harder than that. The question is not if this makes one less a Christian, and rather it si if this shows that one is not in fact a Christian at all.

Now do not get me wrong, I am in no way making a judgement about your faith. It is possible to be wrong in these kind of matters while being Christian, and I do not know you to make even a guess as to your faith. The reason I give this answer is out of concern. As you read the following I simply ask that you do so with an open mind and prayerfully.

If your beliefs in this matter are based upon a study of the texts bringing you to a conclusion that they are symbolic, then that is one thing. But if instead they are based upon your findings in the scientific realm, then I would give you a word of caution here.

Without getting into specifics, as I do not think you wanted to get into a debate about evolution here, let me just tell you that my findings in the scientific realm actually show evolution, even theistic evolution to be impossible, not just improbable. I know you have your reasons to believe otherwise. Obviously, science is not an absolute standard against which we should measure the word of God. Rather I would suggest using the word of God as an absolute standard against which to measure science.

The problem I see with Christian theistic evolution is that it is nowhere even implied in the Bible. The creation account reads as literal and if it is symolic, there is no clue as to symbolic of what. It is a theory evolved to harmonize a belief in God with a disbelief in His revealed account of how He made creation. Since His account actually fits in with many facts that science has discovered, I cannot agree that He wants you to come up with a rational explanation that denies this account.

The main thing is that theistic evolution is a theory that seems right unto man because the Biblical account does not. Proverbs 14:12 warns against this

12There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.Please take a moment to consider this in prayer. Is your belief based in the word of God, or is it a way which seemeth right in thef ace of an account that does not?

[Criada]

The important thing is:
Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Nothing else makes you a Christian... there aren't grades.

Personally, I do believe that Genesis is literal... and I am a trained scientist (zoology).
BUT I don't think that it is as important an issue as it is made out to be.
God created the world, He made us, and He loves us. How He did it, really, doesn't matter... and we would never understand it anyway, because He is God, and we are not.
That sounds like a cop out.. I am sorry. I have studied this... and there are persuasive arguments on both sides. But, our faith does not rest in man's arguments, but in trusting God.
'In the beginning God created...'
That is all we need to accept... the how and when are interesting to ponder... but really, make no difference.

[Brendan1000]

I find the notion of universal acceptance in Christianity. I think faith in Jesus should cross boundaries, not create them.

dead2self, I appreciate your strong faith. However, I guess I haven't seen any evidence showing that theistic evolution is somehow unlikely or inconsistent. Maybe it's a matter of definitions - I believe that Genesis can be taken as true, but the seven days don't appear to be true days to me. I accept that God created the heavens and the earth, the plants, the animals and mankind. The means by which that happened is not fully specified which is where part of the ambiguity comes from.

I'm not trying to start a whole debate either, I guess all I have to say is that I might have to look at different evolution theories in more detail to find impossibilities.

[paperneck]

you are the only person who can tell you what it means to be a christian. pray on it, search your heart, and consider the bible.

truth is truth. it will reveal itself to you in time, and you should never be afraid of it, or the quest to find it.

[dead2self]

Hey there Brendan,

Thanks for not taking my post the wrong way, I appreciate that you read it in the right spirit. But please, don't think my faith is particularily strong. Call it more stubborn. My faith is based on facts I have learned. It took me a great deal of time to finally decide that the Bible had proven itslef to me beyond any possible doubt with cold hard facts. Since then, I have become rather stubborn in my faith taking a stance that the Bible is right, and if my ideas go against it, it's me that is in need of correction.

Anyway, if you wanted me to share a few things for you to ponder, I could send them to you. I don't want a debate about it and won't press the issue. Just some things I have learned that may be profitable to check out for yourself. If you want the info let me know, if not that's cool too.

As I should have stated more clearly, if you are acting out of faith then I really do think your fine on this. We all interpret things a bit differently. It's only when we read things into scripture to fit our own desires that we run into trouble.

One last thing. I was just wondering if you could flesh out that universal acceptance notion. I'm not sure I understand what you mean. While faith in Jesus should indeed, and does cross all cultural, national and linguistic borders, it has to, by virtue of it's claim to an absolute exclusive truth, create some boudaries between those with faith and those without.

[Brendan1000]

Hey dead2self,

No problem, I saw the point of your post so there was no need to be all defensive about it. For me, the point of religion is to be open to the rest of the world and to avoid fighting over details. This is what I'm describing when I talk about universal acceptance - I can't picture Christ wanting His followers arguing about minute details. Along with this concept comes the belief in a single Church - the church carried on by Peter, is present throughout the world even if it's split between different denominations. I find the potential for serious conflict between groups with 95% similarity in beliefs to be just senseless, not quite what Jesus had in mind before leaving this world.

I'm not up for debating either. In fact, I'm quite interested in what you have to offer with respect to your things to ponder. I'm an open person, and I believe that religious truth does not fear the light, that is it is consistent and won't be contradicted or snuffed out by further ideas, evidence, or logic.

I do believe in the correctness of the Bible. For example, there are many statments therein that make supernatural predictions that could not have been known by mankind at the time of its writing. I guess I just figured that you were a deeper religious person than I am because I'm fairly rooted in math and science, I guess it's just part of my personality though I don't see it as a true problem regarding faith.

Peace out

[20MoreMiles]

Hello Brendan, i'm a bit new but can you explain a few of your views to me?

Why would it not be possible to create the earth, Heaven, Hell, plants, stars, etc in 7 days? God is almighty.

And what statements make supernatural predictions that couldn't have been known by mankind at the time of their writing?

[suzybeezy]

When I read the OP I thought of Proverbs 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom, and from his mouth come knowledge and understanding. We seek wisdom, but it is not our seeking that produces it. God is the source of all wisdom and knowledge and he makes it available for those who are right in their relationships with him, with others, and with the world.

I would encourage you to continue to research and study on the subject. Most importantly, be prayerful that the Lord will provide you with the wisdom you seek.

[Pure_Heart]

Genesis 1:1
"In the beginning God created heaven and earth."

Genesis 1:20-31
"And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

"And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

"And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

"And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

"And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

"And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

"And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

"And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

I believe the Bible is truth. I believe what God said in Genesis in it's literal sense that God created the earth, formed it, and created every living creature, even man, and placed them upon the earth. To not, would be to call God and the Bible a liar.

I believe dinosaurs were created by God.

I believe the dinosaurs were killed off after the flood because there was a diminished amount of food caused by the water which killed off most of the vegetation and animals.

[Pure_Heart]

Taken from a website titled: How do Dinosaurs fit with the Bible (Not allowed to put source in message yet).

Subtitled: What did dinosaurs eat?

"The Bible teaches (in Genesis 1:29-30) that the original animals (and the first humans) were commanded to be vegetarian. There were no meat eaters in the original creation. Furthermore, there was no death. It was an unblemished world, with Adam and Eve and animals (including dinosaurs) living in perfect harmony, eating only plants.

"Sadly, it did not stay this way for very long. Adam rebelled against his Creator, bringing sin into the world (Genesis 3:1-7; Romans 5:12). Because of this rebellion, Adam, and thus all of his descendants (you and me), gave up the right to live with a Holy (sinless) and just God. God therefore judged sin with death.

"The Bible plainly teaches from Genesis to Revelation that there was no death of animals or humans before Adam sinned. (Consider just a few of the many passages, such as: Romans 5:12; Genesis 2:17; Genesis 1:29-30; Romans 8:20-22; Acts 3:21; Hebrews 9:22; I Corinthians 15; Revelation 21:1-4; Revelation 22:3.) This means there could not have been any animal fossils (and no dinosaur bones) before sin.

"The Bible teaches (in Genesis 1:29-30) that the original animals (and the first humans) were commanded to be vegetarian. There were no meat eaters in the original creation. Furthermore, there was no death. It was an unblemished world, with Adam and Eve and animals (including dinosaurs) living in perfect harmony, eating only plants.

"Sadly, it did not stay this way for very long. Adam rebelled against his Creator, bringing sin into the world (Genesis 3:1-7; Romans 5:12). Because of this rebellion, Adam, and thus all of his descendants (you and me), gave up the right to live with a Holy (sinless) and just God. God therefore judged sin with death.

"The Bible plainly teaches from Genesis to Revelation that there was no death of animals or humans before Adam sinned. (Consider just a few of the many passages, such as: Romans 5:12; Genesis 2:17; Genesis 1:29-30; Romans 8:20-22; Acts 3:21; Hebrews 9:22; I Corinthians 15; Revelation 21:1-4; Revelation 22:3.) This means there could not have been any animal fossils (and no dinosaur bones) before sin."

[idiftl]

jesus is a nigga

[idiftl]

and a [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]

[idiftl]

that is g4y ^ jesus is a f4g

[idiftl]

EVOLUTION or GTFO

[20MoreMiles]

Fascinating stuff, Pure Heart.